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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1554395 times)

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #390 on: October 30, 2013, 12:21:38 PM »
Alvaro
 If the induced has need of it's own core it would only be to focus the field into the center of the coil (induced) to avoid distortion effects felt by nearby fields of the other electromagnets. I spent a good bit of the last evening looking references to pole face geometries which might also help to focus the field into a more beam like pattern even millimeters of focus would be helpful to reduce scattering the field as soon as it leaves the end of the magnet. A second problem I come up against frequently is the notion of amp turns/ If more more turns yield more induced magnetisim per current but also increases more resistance due to length of wire. Why not use the desired length of wire/turns cut into the lengths of less resistance making a it multi stranded? Is it really just a question of whats easier to work with? I would hate to think world sucks just because people are lazy.I can live greed more so then lazy.
 I have found a few references to that but it seams to be in early stages of study with generator applications. The focus of interest seams to be over the difficutly of the diminishing strength of a field per unit of distance and how the conductors at the greatest distance have to be adjusted in length accordingly to avoid voltage differences between conductors or strands. Not doing so tends to build up excess heat in the windings and alters the dilectric capacitance leading to shorts between turns at higher frequencies and gets worse with temperature build up. The hotter it gets the lower the frequency need be for break down.
   

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Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #391 on: October 30, 2013, 01:26:29 PM »
 Doug: Thanks so much for such a constructive comment. Clever analysis.

 
I think that the resultant output Figuera wanted was close to an AC current & Voltage, and this is  the induced result of a progressive positive input into the two opposing electromagnets.
At his time AC used in Spain was at 110 volts 50 Hz. (only hot line & neutral, NO ground)
I am also intrigued about this common negative return, “al origen” because in the drawing, it shows a third segment of lead. . . . may be it was connected to ground (earth) ??? will try it.
Remember that Spanish patent offices in 19 century were not controlled by Edison friends, and therefore there was not so strong constrictions to the “perpetuum mobile” concepts.

 
In my line of thinking, in this device there are not colliding magnetic fluxes, but rather a movement similar to the seesaw work done by two lumberjacks pulling alternatively, not pushing.

 
As I am working at a small scale (economic restrictions) and as I do not need AC 50Hz output, I am using a sharp transition between the two alternatively biased electromagnets.(via 100 ohms resistors)
Attached a pic of the commutator set up I´ll use. My main concern is now in the coils & cores geometry.
For now the comm. Is moved by a printer DC motor fed by an adjustable PC PSU (modified) which allows me to vary the frequency in a short range.
The main input is provided by a PS 12V 2A (from wifi modem)
Any suggestions are welcomed.

 

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #392 on: November 02, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »
Alvero
  A persons economy has little to do with anything. Resourcing materials starts with understanding what the materials are and looking for where you can get it for free.People throw away stuff all the time.Unless you live in some remote jungle there will be stuff. Its always a good idea to evaluate your local resources both free and for sale. Have you ever read on the original pancake motor? The short version best I can remember. The guy was broke, so had to come up a creative way to obtain his materials to make the stator and rotor cores. He didnt want to take money from his family's food budget so as a result of limited finances they had to shop around for good deals on food.He came across someone selling off old stocks of canned vegetables in number 10 cans at a penny each. He purchased enough cans of food to solve both problems. He used the cans to make the laminates of the cores by hand. I would like to think if he had unlimited funds he would have never bothered or he would have not done such a good job because his mind set would have been so different that he would not have cared so much or had a need to make a better motor that used less power. Lack of funds is never a downside, just a greater opportunity to show case the human spirit.
 

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #392 on: November 02, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »
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Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #393 on: November 02, 2013, 06:12:43 PM »
 Hello Doug1
I never said or thought (nor complained) that to be broke is a limitation. I just explained why I am working at a small scale, not that I feel it as a downside.
I have indeed developed from long ago a friendship with some vehicle repair shop owners that keep for me all sort of small DC motors and other parts they discard.
The same with all the superintendents of the neighbor buildings, with discarded electrical appliances. (unbelievable the things people throw out)
“the garbage of a man is the treasure of another”  
I learned well to make the most of resources as I lived with  my family for 12 years in a jungle at the Venezuela-Brasil border. (beautiful place called “La gran Sabana”)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kukenan_Tepuy_at_Sunset.jpg
In fact I am a rich man because I have many friends and . . . much time !!  :D :D :D
regards
Alvaro

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #394 on: November 02, 2013, 07:06:59 PM »
That's good to hear all around. particularly that you have access to auto motive parts. A alternator stator would make a very good outer section with some mods to the teeth where the wires lay in. To turn into a quad pole structure with some teeth removed at the desired gaps to wire it up as a quad /4 pole. Then you only have to build the internal section to mirror the stator section. The voltage regulator will come in handy.
  I didn't think you were complaining sorry if I came off that way. I was just thinking of how many times the easiest route leaves a person hanging high and dry with lots of money spent but no results. Plenty of people don't even try because they think you have to spend 50k on equipment. The best proof of all that something works is getting off the grid.

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #394 on: November 02, 2013, 07:06:59 PM »
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Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #395 on: November 03, 2013, 01:57:11 PM »
Alvero
  Looks like a nice place to live,very peaceful. Im not one for city living but I could be happy on the Savanna with no problem. I hope yours never gets spoiled by tourists. We get a lot of them here and I have to say I don't care for them too much.

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #396 on: November 03, 2013, 02:16:36 PM »
Forgot one thing.The third segment of lead, how ells would it go back to the origin? Make yourself a model of batteries.Small objects all the same so you can visualize the system. writing the values down as you go round the circuit. Paper tends to run out of room too fast. Have you ever come across a book on the net called "Dynamo electric Machinery A Manual for Students of Electrotechnics." It might help to see things from the perspective of what was taught during the proper time period.By Silvanus Phillips Thompson Dated 1888. Google has a downloadable copy.

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #396 on: November 03, 2013, 02:16:36 PM »
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Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #397 on: November 07, 2013, 12:40:06 AM »
 
Quote
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics

Nikola Tesla utilized a "Radial" Wound Coils Geometry...where wires travel from one end to other end of the total Armature Diameter. We utilize "Axial" Wound Coils in most of all our Electrodynamic Machines...where Coils are wound in the Outer Periphery of the Armature Structure.

About Figuera´s patent with a rotary winding (No. 30376):

 I am almost sure that Figuera in his rotary drum patent used radial windings. I am afraid that using axial windings will not get the same results: with an axial winding the induced magnetic field will be opposed to the induced field. With a radial winding in Figuera´s machine the induced magnetic field will be at right angle to the inducer field, IMHO.


 According to the winding proposed by Bajac (posted some weeks ago) the Figuera patent 30376 should have a wire between two poles, then it crosses diametraly the drum, passes between the other two poles in the other side and again crosses diametraly the rotating drum. With this winding you get an  induced magnetic field which is at 90º of the inducer magnetic field. Therefore no Lenz Law is reflecting back to the inducer coils. ( I think - if I have interpreted fine that document-)

Here I  post an schematic for implementing the Figuera´s rotating drum winding for patent 30376 that I think that it has some advantages over a standard winding as drawn in simple form in the original patent. It may work with the same magnet polarity all around the external side. It is a winding with an "8" shaped coil in each turn. It creates two induced magnetic fields, B1 and B2,  with opposite directions. As each semi-turn has different induced polarities then those two field maybe can go in a circle around the central hole without affecting the inducer electromagnets.
 
 What do you think?

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #398 on: November 09, 2013, 01:31:46 PM »
It's an interesting winding concept. Im not sure about how it will react to the otter section of the device. Or if the induced field will not simply attempt to complete the magnetic loop by diving into the left or right part of the cross. If it did ,it would be very uneven in it's field strength.The strongest field or greatest amount of force being in the corners and less at the extremedies giving a voltage difference with in the turns themselves. Then would generate a lot of heat. Then you have to deal with getting all that wire through the central hole for all four posts without damage to the insulation of the wire. That's a pretty tall order. While it may work well for a single drum shape of a rotor I dont think it will be as effective for a compound of four drums connected together as a cross.JMO

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #398 on: November 09, 2013, 01:31:46 PM »
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Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #399 on: November 09, 2013, 05:24:35 PM »
Hi all,
 
 About the discoveries done by Clemente Figuera in 1902 the New York Times published the 9th of June of 1902 (link):
 
 "His inventions comprise a generator a motor and a sort of governor or regulator"
 
 Figuera in 1902 patented two devices:

       -A motionless generator   (patent 30378)
       -A rotary drum generator  (patent 30376)

If the description by the NY Times is right then Figuera used a motor. Then it is possible that the device that Figuera showed to the journalist is the one which needed a motor to rotate the drum. If so, we can think about the two devices patented by Figuera in 1902 that the one which was built and operated was his rotary drum generator with 3 parts:

    1- A generator:  the rotary drum and the electromagnets
    2- A motor: a small motor used to rotate the drum
    3- A governor: ??

Maybe the motionless generator (patent 30378) was just a theoretical extrapolation of his working rotary drum generator, which was actually the device that Figuera built.
 
 Regards

PS:  Doug, we have to remember that the winding used by Figuera was the standard square diametrical winding. The "8" shape coil winding is just a proposal. I think that, as a first step, the winding to be replicated is the one used by Figuera.

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #400 on: November 09, 2013, 11:50:34 PM »
Now that I have a copy of the drum patent  :o That type of winding and pole geometry is very much like some home built wind gens. Difference being they spin the magnets on two plates spinning opposite directions on a flat plane with the induced between. Im sure someone must have tried going the other way as well. I think your gonna boil down to a basket weave motor theory used as a gen. Another difference is most examples use perm magnets witch are weeker then electric ones.

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #400 on: November 09, 2013, 11:50:34 PM »
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Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #401 on: November 10, 2013, 01:15:07 PM »
Now that I have a copy of the drum patent  :o That type of winding and pole geometry is very much like some home built wind gens. Difference being they spin the magnets on two plates spinning opposite directions on a flat plane with the induced between. Im sure someone must have tried going the other way as well. I think your gonna boil down to a basket weave motor theory used as a gen. Another difference is most examples use perm magnets witch are weeker then electric ones.

Doug, Could you provide any link where we can see those home built win generator that you refer? I would like to check the differences and similarities.

 I think the main advantage of the desing by Figuera is that the induced field is at right angle to the inducer field, and therefore there is no interation, so no Lenz effect is reflected back to the inducers electromagnets. I think that in wind generators the induced coil is wound so that the induced field is in the same plane as the inducer field. Figuera wound it so that it is in aperpendicular plane as is drawn in the scheme provided in one of the previous post. Please share your thoughts.

There are good schematics in this link:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-194.html#post242983


Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #402 on: November 10, 2013, 05:08:52 PM »
It's called an "Axial wind turbine" there is a lot of sites which have a lot of info trial and error to get some ideas from. The difference it is not based on a drum but kept flat. Perm magnets used on both sides of the induced coils. They place the magnets on the opposing frames which the wind blades mount to which is constructed to handle the stresses involved.Big bulky machine to keep it from flying apart. The simularity is the magnetic field relationship to the induced coil in a multi coil system on a circular frame. Change the perm magnets to electromagnets,place the same coil arangement around the drum for the induced and give it a turn.
  I dont know if you will see any similarity at all I guess it depends on what you interpret is the key feature difference in figuruas idea. I dont believe he used a completed magnetic path like transformer. Im thinking it is more like crashing two fields together of the same sign and moving the fine line between them back and forth to produce a difference of field in the induced. In a drum form the fine line would be stationary with alternating distances measured from the center axial point.Rotating the induced coils around between the pole faces.Each inducer being a pair of electromagnets would be alternately shifted in strength so one or the other dominates the induced as it revolves around. Turning only the induced coil which has less mass and there by requiring less force to do so makes it some what counter to what the axial turbine does which is to turn the mass holding the magnets and propeller. Not very clever unless you like giant blades whirling around in the middle of the night. The turbine uses permanent magnets facing N to S completing the magnetic path though the induced as with any ordinary system including a transformer. The key difference as he states well ,:it's not like a transformer". A transformer or the like builds a magnetic field with a primary then adds a secondary "drain" to the single magnetic path taking more power to satisfy both from the source. The changing flux in the induced is at the expense of the primary power source at a rate equal to or more then the secondary is taking.The field set up by the primary once started consumes very little only 5 to 7 percent of the full load on the secondary. Can you imagine getting 10.000 watts of work done at the cost of 500 watts. The physics is simple,balance any object of any size or weight on a narrow rectangular block, fix the block to the object.Then walk the object on the block pushing down slightly and turning it half way around then lift and turn it back .It takes very little to move something so big you cant even budge it other wise. If I had two perm magnets each able to lift 1000 lbs and  pushed them together N to N and left a 1 inch gap then move a coil in the gap closer to one magnet then closer to the other changing the field in the coil as it crosses the shearing point of the two fields resulting in a difference equal to 1000 lbs of force each time the coil crosses the line between the two fields. The induced does not care how you made the change just that you changed it. More flux more speed of change gets you more out. The individual fields of the inducers loop back on themselves to make a complete path for each magnetic field in itself.On a planar view one is left handed the other right handed with a concentrated repelling force in the middle expanding outward to a greater distance then the opposite side of the respective magnets which explains his choice of pole face geometries. The extremedies of the cores flair out to lead the flux as it tends to expand anyway by repulsion where they face each other. Producing a larger diameter field to use a larger surface area induced coil without expending more current grabbing a greater amount of flux in the induced.It might even be more evened out to avoid setting up eddy currents between individual turns of the induced.For such a simple drawing it could be very complex in reality. So there is my thought.
 

Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #403 on: November 11, 2013, 05:50:18 PM »
If we suppose that the device that really worked in 1902 was the one with the rotary drum, maybe Figuera was trying to emulate those rotating dinamic interations in his final 1908 patent where he proposed the use of two unphased signals. Maybe he tried to simulate those rotary interactions into a motionless generator. I think that his idea was to get induction by flux cutting in his 1908 device, as it is common in any movable generator: all the induction is due to the lines which cut the induced wires [ Induction by motion: E = Length · B · v ·sin(alpha)  ] and no induction is derived from flux linking [Faraday Law: E = S · dB/dt ]

As stupify has stated the use of a two phase AC current (what in fact is composed by 2 unphased signals) can emulate a rotating magnetic field

Also I have noted that when two identical inducer signals are used the lines of force are enclosed into the magnetic circuit: maybe you can shift polarity but the lines of force are always inside the core. BUT, I think that if two non-identical signals are used then the lines of force are not always enclosed in the core, because most of the lines just encircle the electromagnets which is at full power in each moment, being only completely enclosed into the core in the instant when both electromagnets induction is the same. Those lines of force swing back and forth between one electromagnets and the other following the time frame when each one is at full power (here I am following a scheme similar to Buforn patents where the 3 coils are in the same axis).The flux lines move IN and OUT from the induced core. THEREFORE: the magnetic lines cut the wires of the induced coil in each swing. And thus, you can get the same effects which exist into a common movable generator but just using a motionless generator!! (in movable generators induction is achieved only by flux line cutting).

The objetive is to get the induced wire cut by the flux lines.

While a electromagnet is increasing in strength the flux lines are encircling it tighly and leaving the contrary electromagnet; and while it is decreasing in strength the flux lines are expanding toward the electromagnet which is getting more powerful in that moment. It is a constant swing of flux lines between both electromagnets. Maybe this action will induce in the proper sense so that the induction into the induced wires will be created in the right direction to power the inducer field instead of make it weaker as usually happen in the Lenz effect. I am refering that the counter induced field act in the reverse way as usually do, and in this case will reinforce the inducer field.

Do you think that this idea may be right?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:28:09 AM by hanon »

Offline Doug1

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #404 on: November 17, 2013, 03:39:54 PM »
Hanon
  Answer "no.
 
 Here is the Tesla version as was pointed out to you by another person in this thread.Pat 382282
 Disect it ,read between the lines. Examine the images closely,follow the paths.Mark out the fields. Look for the obvious nonsensical portions of the image. Take the time to view the second image until you can come back and tell me what part does not make any sense. When you locate the part you will see how to and how to get a over unity device through the pat office. It really makes no difference who invented first.Everything follows secondary to who first discovered the load stone and the voltiac cell.

 

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