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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1638807 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Hi NRamaswami,

You wrote:  "In fact we find that when more than 3 wires are wound as trifilar or quadfilar, the best efficiency is achieved only in two layer coils. After that impedance goes up so much."

As per your description how your setup was connected,  you used a lamp load at the input in series with the primary electromagnet coils and you also had another load across the secondary output.  Is this correct? 
Now, If in this setup the impedance of the primary coil is increased (due to the more windings of the additional layers) then the total input current taken from the same mains decreases of course.  Is this what you mean on: 'efficiency goes down'?

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

It is okay for the primary coils that making more winding layers for them i.e. increasing the number of turns, their AC impedance goes up, this is what reduces input current draw in itself. And if you use a lamp or a bank of lamps in series with such increased impedance primary coil or coils, then you divide the same 220V ac input voltage into two parts, while the input current further decreases because the impedance or resistance of the lamps (which by the way is nonlinear) adds in series to that of the primary coil(s).  This is how I think.

Is it correct to deduce that without the series lamp or bank of lamps at the primary input, the overall efficiency of the same setup is just normal?

You wrote: "2. Am I right in the understanding that a low gauge wire with high DC Resistance will also have very high AC impedance."

I assume again: you mean thin diameter wire on the low gauge wire because otherwise decreasing gauge numbers mean increasing diameter wires, right?
To answer your question, with the use of thin wire which has high DC resistance and you make a coil with that, the AC impedance of such coil increases only by the amount of the increased DC resistance, the formula is Z=sqrt(R2+XL2), and here I assume you use the same number of turns like you had for the thick wire coil to compare and you use the same plastic tube (OD) and core of course. Generally, thin wires are used when you need to produce a relatively high flux density for a job within a certain confined volume or space available and you achieve that by using many turns from the thin wire: more turns fit into or fill up a given volume made with thin wire than with thick wire. (here comes the Amper*Turns excitation question too: you increase the turns you get higher magnetic excitation).

You wrote: "4. So my understanding from your posts is that the rules or equations of Electromagnetism in books would not apply to the following situations."

Sorry but none of your a, b and c  assumptions comes from my posts...

Thick insulating layers for wires, or gaps between the wire turns may modify coil AC properties but basic rules or equations of electromagnetism still apply. It is one thing that very few devoted people took the trouble to actually explore and measure the effects of insulating material on inductance, self capacitance etc of coils but even less people took the trouble of writing software programs on such problems.


Gyula


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Offline gyulasun

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Hi Gyula:

By the way I have no bobbins. I use plastic tubes which are 2.5 inch or 4 inch dia and 30 cm to 50 cm in length for winding the wires. Each one of them is packed with softiron rods. 2.5 inch takes about 60 of 6mm dia soft iron rods while 4 inches one take a lot more. Soft iron rods are about 43 cm long. or 30 cm long. All cores are either soft iron or made up of iron powder which is packed in to the tubes with plastic caps on both sides. 99% of the time we do not use iron powder. All winding is by hand so far. No machine winding and no enamelled wire so far.

That is okay you have no bobbins but plastic tubes, I used the term bobbin for referring to any coil holder. Regarding the 6mm iron rods, do you happen to have access to about 2mm dia soft iron rods? This would reduce heat losses in them from the eddy currents, especially if you cover them with insulating spray to prevent electrical conduction between two adjacent rods. Welding rods are a choice here too, Bedini suggested a certain type he found good for cores. Or there is the steel pellet #7 size, also covered by spray.

By the way, the repeatability for your setups is also influenced by factors like using identical air gaps between facing electromagnet poles, or like using iron rods cut to identical lengths with that of the plactic tubes holding the coils so that coil ends and rod ends are matched or not, etc. These are details that may affect both the outcome and the repeatability. You may watch for these factors (or you found that such details mean but a little).

Gyula

Offline Cadman

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Gyula & NRamaswami,

Here is an online coil calculator that allows input of insulation thickness and type, coil pitch etc.

https://www.rac.ca/tca/RF_Coil_Design.html

Be sure to read the whole page before using as there is some handy information, dialectric constant values etc.

I hope it's useful and does not add confusion to your efforts

Regards


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Offline Cadman

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Attached is a very nice coil calculator spreadsheet (.xls). I did not write it, it was found online and I don't have the original link anymore.
It is for air-core coils and enameled wire but presents a great deal of coil information including the amount of wire needed, number of turns and layers, coil resistance and gauss strength at 3 different points.

Maybe one of you with good spreadsheet abilities could use the formulae from the online coil calulator and combine it with this spreadsheet and make a spreadsheet that can calculate both types of coils. 8)

Regards

Offline NRamaswami

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Hi Gyula:

This is your question:

You wrote:  "In fact we find that when more than 3 wires are wound as trifilar or quadfilar, the best efficiency is achieved only in two layer coils. After that impedance goes up so much."

As per your description how your setup was connected,  you used a lamp load at the input in series with the primary electromagnet coils and you also had another load across the secondary output.  Is this correct? 
Now, If in this setup the impedance of the primary coil is increased (due to the more windings of the additional layers) then the total input current taken from the same mains decreases of course.  Is this what you mean on: 'efficiency goes down'?

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

This is my Answer:

Since we do not know when the electromagnet would hold the circuit was set up like this..

Mains live wire -- Primary coil input -- Primary coil output - resistive load - Mains Neutral

Secondary coil - Load.

Now when we wind the trifilar or quadfilar coils only down and up or forward and backward, the voltage loss in the primary load is negligible.

When we have more than that the voltage loss in the primary goes up dramatically.

Amperage at input and load remains the same. Amperage does not decrease with increasing wires. I suspect this is due to the fact that we are giving same load of 10x200 watts lamps. Possibly due to AC impedance increase and the same load requires the same current or amps, amps do not diminish but amps remain the same but the voltage in the primary load decreases.

However when we increase the layers beyond a certain number the coil loses the ability to transmit current to the load. Probably at this level it is safe for us to make the coil as an electromagnet. Since we do not know how to calculate the whether the coil will hold as an electromagnet or not we did this test. It is a kind of blindmans approach to evaluate whether it is safe to connect the electromagnet to the mains. When we do so after this kind of levels the electromagnet holds. Power draw is low. It is certainly not in the less than 1 amp that you mentioned, possibly it applies to enamal coated windings and not for insulated windings. Insulation probably takes some amperage on its own. I really do not know.

By low guage wires I meant indeed thin wires. In India wires used are 0.75 sq mm, 1 sq mm and 1.5 sq mm, 2.5 sq mm, 4 sq mm, 6 sq mm, 10 sq mm, 15 sq mm, 25 sq mm, etc.  How they are classed in other countries I do not know. I meant thin wires.

Can you explain this forumla please..

Z=sqrt(R2+XL2)

Z I believe is the AC impedance. R is DC Resistance L is inductance What is X? What is sqrt.. Is that square root of R squre plus X multiplied by L square. So Z is directly proportional to inductance and dc resistance. Am I right in this simple understanding of the forumla. If DC resistance increases, AC impedance increases and so is inductance of the coil.  This is what you taught me earlier. Is my simple understanding correct.

Your next question:

If yes, then I ask: why did you connect a bank of bulbs in series with the output at all?  If the main reason was you wanted to keep the input current within reasonable bounds, then it may show the primary coils had too low impedance and drew too high input current without the bank of lamps. Is this a correct assumption?

The bulbs were connected in series only to test when the wire is not able to transmit power to the bulb. At that stage it is safe for us to conclude that the electromagnet will remain stable. Crude method of understanding.

I actually did not know as the number of coils increase like bifilar, trifilar, quadfilar etc AC impedance will increase and so by making more number of coils, we can get the elcctromagnet to remain stable at lower number of turns as the AC impedance would increase manifold for multifilar wire coil than for a single wire and so the multifilar coil would be stable electromagnet.

You see in the absence of technical knowledge, we used a common sense approach to determine at 220 volts when the electromagnet would become stable. When it can be safely connected without the fuse blowing up.

But I need to test whether the Ammeter actually shows so much of less amps as you suggest. We have never ever seen any amp in any electromagnet less than 5 amps.

Possibly your calculations based on enamal wires may not directly apply to insulated wires.

It is the thick very thick insulated cables that show a reverse to this line of thinking. But the insulated 3 core wire was only 300 meteres 100x3 meteres and so the insulation could have taken the amps. This is my assumption.

I will get back to you by weekend after completing tests.  Please advise if my assumptions made hereinabove are correct. I'm obliged.

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Offline Farmhand

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OK I did some tests and it seems to me that the resulting wave from on the secondary is not right when I use two sets of DC lumps (fully rectified AC) 90 degrees out of phase.

Then when I think of the resistor array and then I realize that the resistor array setup would make two DC lumps 180 degree out of phase which makes more sense. I have to say it is confusing to me.

Did the people that made the step drivers use two steps 180 out of phase ? I don't see why I can't just use an inverter circuit. I think the resistor array takes each magnet from minimum to maximum to minimum one after the other. Just like a normal inverter, but with the two primaries on separate cores with gaps. The way it is drawn is quite confusing (at least to me).

To me that means if there is an effect, the effect must be in the gaps or the arrangement.

I'm going to try using a regular inverter circuit and a DC square wave to each coil 180 out of phase just to see what happens. 

Cheers

Offline hanon

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Impedance equation:  Calculated from resistance (R) and reactance (XL - XC) )

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Offline dieter

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Farmhand, do you have a picture of your coil set? I am not sure if I imagine this right.


Again, I think doing this in plain 0 to +n DC may be a problem. Then again, after all it's the voltage diffrence between low and high, that matters, one would think. As I wrote, I did DC tests, but my alternating p1/p2 pulses did not overlap as in the 90 deg situation. Results were unspectacular in that 2 primaries caused double output as one primary did, and not a lot, compared to using AC from the same 12 v supply (voltage drop due to rectifier given). In the lagged ac setup 2 primaries caused three or more times the output of one primary. As a quick test I would really suggest to simply use the unrectified ac out of a supply, feed it directly into the primaries (suggested 15 to 20 ohms each), with one of them having a big cap in series. It may he a bit tricky to find the right capacitance, it must also work well and quickly, not all caps are perfect.


180° is not really what figuera described, when AC is the input. When it's DC then yes, but you have a congruent Front here, with two same forces, opposing eachother, this doesn't sound too promising, does it? In the AC setup Figueras decription results in a 25% lag that sounds much more like a tail-chasing dog, an afterburner to me. As I  said, I do have the practical evidence, that this 90°  AC setup does not simply add the output of the two primaries together, compared to when they run alone...


BTW.  I have seen on ebay there are some ex-soviet sellers of "ferrite bars" and "ferrite rods", up to 12mm diameter and 200mm lenght, these would assemble a great core and they are cheap. Imagine 3 Rods, eg. 12mm diameter, 100m lenght as the cores (thanks to the round shape the wire will remain reusable), with two bars, like 120x20x4mm as the floor and the roof of the 3 columns, building a double E Core, or a [|] core. This would also allow to test air gaps.


I also saw metglass cores for MEGs (C cores), but I'm not sure if they can handle a T-fluxgate (where the secondary core is sandwiched).
Spontanously I decided to crack and sacrifice my micro wave oven supply, it has a nice secondary with 150 ohms that will give me two or more fantastic primaries, and the sheet core is CI shape if I'm not mistaken, so that could be used too.  This whole magnet wire addiction must look rather strange to "normal" people.  BTW I miss a mad scientist smiley  8)


Regards.


Offline ALVARO_CS

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@Farmhand or Gyula (better both)

I made a commutator using two commutators from a DC motor 8 poles, 2 brushes each (see schematic)
with the idea of feeding the pos impulse at both inductors alternatively. (kind of flip-flop), not a
sweet transition, but neither a sharp one as the brush contact area is thinner that the comm segment.
(note that they are twisted; That is: when A is in direct contact, B is contact through-resistance)
Also note that there is never a 0 voltage situation.

my question is: in theory will the resulting wave in the two primary be 90 or 180 out of phase ? . . .or
will it be any out of phase at all ?

your opinion greatly appreciated

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Offline dieter

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You didn't ask me, but your drawing looks more like a 45 degree shift to me.

Offline gyulasun

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...

Here is an online coil calculator that allows input of insulation thickness and type, coil pitch etc.

https://www.rac.ca/tca/RF_Coil_Design.html

...


Hi Cadman,

Thanks for the link and the excel spreadsheet. The online coil calculator is good, the only 'problem' is that it considers single layer coils only.

Unfortunately, I am not good at spreadheets, never had to use it so deeply. Will try to get acquianted with it.

In the meantime I have also found an online calculator which is able to calculate multilayer coils and considers isolation thickness. However, the dielectric constant of the insulating material is not included in it but perhaps this is not a real drawback at 50Hz. Here is the link to it: http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html  from the home site: http://coil32.narod.ru/index-en.html  A good feature is that with selectable plug-in options, it allows to calculate solenoid coil inductance when you insert a ferrite rod into it (hopefully this works for multilayer solenoids too).   I will study it in the next couple of days.

Gyula

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Offline marathonman

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Monster Ferrite Rods http://www.stormwise.com/page26.htm
Paper towel  cardboard centers and toilet paper centers covered in resin are good bobbins to.

Offline gyulasun

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Hi NRamaswami,

I included my answers in bold between your text lines below.


Since we do not know when the electromagnet would hold the circuit was set up like this..

Mains live wire -- Primary coil input -- Primary coil output - resistive load - Mains Neutral

Secondary coil - Load.

Now when we wind the trifilar or quadfilar coils only down and up or forward and backward, the voltage loss in the primary load is negligible.

When we have more than that the voltage loss in the primary goes up dramatically.

Yes, This happens due to dividing the 220V input voltage between the primary coil and the resistive load which is in series with the primary coil. And in case the coils have got only the down and up turns i.e. relatively short overall wire length, the resulting AC impedance is also relatively small, this means that more voltage is divided across the primary resistive load than across the primary coil. And when the coils have more turns (i.e relatively longer wire length) than in the previous case, meaning higher L inductance, then the coil AC impedance gets also higher than in the previous case, hence two things happen: 1) input current draw decreases from the 220V mains,  2) less voltage is divided across the primary resistive load because the previous relatively low impedance of the primary coil has now increased to a higher impedance which does not let as much voltage to the resistive load than previously.

Amperage at input and load remains the same.  Yes, in a series circuit which the primary coil(s) and the primary resistive load represent in your setup, the current is always the same, regardless from its amplitude.
Amperage does not decrease with increasing wires.  I do not get what you mean on 'increasing wires': increase the wire diameter or increase gauge in your sense?    I suspect this is due to the fact that we are giving same load of 10x200 watts lamps. Possibly due to AC impedance increase and the same load requires the same current or amps, amps do not diminish but amps remain the same but the voltage in the primary load decreases.

However when we increase the layers beyond a certain number the coil loses the ability to transmit current to the load. Probably at this level it is safe for us to make the coil as an electromagnet. Since we do not know how to calculate the whether the coil will hold as an electromagnet or not we did this test. It is a kind of blindmans approach to evaluate whether it is safe to connect the electromagnet to the mains. When we do so after this kind of levels the electromagnet holds. Power draw is low. It is certainly not in the less than 1 amp that you mentioned, possibly it applies to enamal coated windings and not for insulated windings.  No,  current does not depend on the insulation type of the wire in this setup, it depends entirely on AC impedance of the given coil.    Insulation probably takes some amperage on its own. I really do not know.  Insulation takes amperage only if it already got burnt and the gutted parts are able to conduct current towards unwanted directions.  Maybe you wish to check the insulation of such wires.

By low guage wires I meant indeed thin wires. In India wires used are 0.75 sq mm, 1 sq mm and 1.5 sq mm, 2.5 sq mm, 4 sq mm, 6 sq mm, 10 sq mm, 15 sq mm, 25 sq mm, etc.  How they are classed in other countries I do not know. I meant thin wires.  Okay, I have already figured it out but I had to ask it and this may help reduce confusion in other members reading here.

Can you explain this formula please..

Z=sqrt(R2+XL2)     more precisely written: Z=sqrt(R2+XL2)

Z I believe is the AC impedance.  Yes,  R is DC Resistance Yes,  L is inductance What is X? There is no L as a multiplier, L is a subscript to X so XL represents the inductive reactance of a coil: XL=2*Pi*f*L   in the latter formula the L is now indeed the inductance of the coil. What is sqrt.. Is that square root of R squre plus X multiplied by L square.  sqrt is the square root of R squared plus XL squared and there is no L multiplier.
So Z is directly proportional to inductance and dc resistance. Am I right in this simple understanding of the forumla. Yes basically this is correct because the inductive reactance, XL, is proportional to the inductance of the coil but this L inductance is not included directly in the formula for Z, now you know.   If DC resistance increases, AC impedance increases and so is inductance of the coil.  This is what you taught me earlier. Is my simple understanding correct.  NO, this latter is NOT correct... It is okay that if DC resistance increases, AC impeadance of a coil also increases BUT the inductance of the coil does NOT increase, I did not teach it to you ever, at least I did not intend or mean that ever.


The bulbs were connected in series only to test when the wire is not able to transmit power to the bulb. At that stage it is safe for us to conclude that the electromagnet will remain stable. Crude method of understanding. Okay.

I actually did not know as the number of coils increase like bifilar, trifilar, quadfilar etc AC impedance will increase and so by making more number of coils, we can get the elcctromagnet to remain stable at lower number of turns as the AC impedance would increase manifold for multifilar wire coil than for a single wire and so the multifilar coil would be stable electromagnet.  Okay.

You see in the absence of technical knowledge, we used a common sense approach to determine at 220 volts when the electromagnet would become stable. When it can be safely connected without the fuse blowing up.  Now I assume you mean here to omit the primary resistive load too?

But I need to test whether the Ammeter actually shows so much of less amps as you suggest. We have never ever seen any amp in any electromagnet less than 5 amps.  I have to notice here that surely you can reach a situation in the setup whereby the primary coil(s) will have a certain AC impedance letting say draw 2A current from the mains but it remains to be seen what power is delivered to the secondary load? [assuming that your 110% or so measured efficiency included the power drawn by the primary resistive load which now will not be present simply because its role was to stabilize the electromagnet(s), right?]

Possibly your calculations based on enamal wires may not directly apply to insulated wires.  If you mean those calculations I showed with the 5A and the 220V about 2 days ago as a kind of 'reverse engineering', then they do apply! This cannot depend so much on the kind of wire insulating material at the 50Hz mains frequency.

It is the thick very thick insulated cables that show a reverse to this line of thinking. But the insulated 3 core wire was only 300 meteres 100x3 meteres and so the insulation could have taken the amps. This is my assumption.  Well, my assumption here is that probably the AC impedance (due to the increased L inductance) of the coil(s) made from the 3 core wire with thick insulation already reached an impedance value which 'blocked' the input mains voltage to reach the primary resistive load as intensely as it let it earlier when the up and down wire length was used.  (if my reasonings applies at all to this situation)

Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Impedance equation:  Calculated from resistance (R) and reactance (XL - XC) )

Hi Hanon,

Your formulas include a capacitive reactance, XC,   besides the inductive reactance, XL  and I say this to ease the understanding for those learning this. 

Thanks,  Gyula         

Offline gyulasun

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...
my question is: in theory will the resulting wave in the two primary be 90 or 180 out of phase ? . . .or
will it be any out of phase at all ?
...


Hi Alvaro,

I think Dieter is correct, it gives a 45° shift,  this may be figured also from dividing a full circle (or turn), 360° by the 8 segments, it gives 45°. 

Gyula

 

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