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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1648710 times)

Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #765 on: February 26, 2014, 12:33:06 AM »
Thank you Hanon for explaining it in a way Dummy like me can understand..

However the answer still does not answer the other important point of the question..

What will happen if the current is pulsed Dc and if the current given is AC. From experience I know that 240 turns are needed to keep the electromagnet stable for AC current and 960 turns are needed to keep the electromagnet stable when pulsed DC is given.  Of course for solenoids.

The answers provided does not say what will happen to induced emf in these two cases. I have exeperimented and found that both pulsed dc and AC have transformer actions or produce an induced emf but under the conditions performed AC was found to be superior in performance than pulsed DC. So we stuck with AC..

However I still find some information that we see in the experiments is not given in the books. The earlier answer indicates that higher the current higher the magnetic field intensity and that will reduce the electric field and that will reduce efficiency. In a way it is correct. In a way it is wrong. Our experiments indicate that up to some point the efficiency increases if we increase the amperage. After that it drops out as the electromagnets start making unacceptable notise indicating core saturation.

Why that happens why the efficiency increase up to certain point and why the why the efficiency decrease? That is not clear to me.

Also I have heard that the wires tend to magnetize and then demagnetize and then magnetize again. This I heard from a very distinguished Professor and I found similar information online.

Now my question is what would happen to induced emf when the current given is pulsed DC and current given is AC..How does it affect the induced emf..I also want others to confirm that what Hanon said is correct.

While I'm a dummy I have made a lot of experiments, found a lot of results that are inconsistent with the theory in books and am puzzled with many results. Earlier some of the posters were pointing out that the best results would come if the magnets were to be placed in NS-NS-SN direction in a straight core. This is against the law of nature. A straight core cannot have this configuration as the magnet must have a south pole and a north pole at the opposite end. If you do it with an electromagnet, you wind the coil in the first primary in clockwise direction and in the second primary in anticlockwise direction. Wind it and see that the electricity is present in the form of eddy currents in the core but the magnetism disappears. Nothing is produced in the central core. Because there is no magnetism. But if you wind for a number of 4 coils or 2 coils and then wind counter clockwise in the second part the magnetism stays but the first part is stronger and the second part even though it has same number of turns is a weaker magnet. when we have separate cores. So if the NS-NS-SN were to work we must have two different primary electromagnets and the primary at the ends facing secondary must be separated by either plastic sheet or copper sheet if all of them to be placed inside a same tube so that the central secondary does not rotate but will remain stable.  I think probably this is what some friends earlier called an air gap..I do not understand. But I can confirm that in a straight core magnetism is destroyed. in the NS-NS-SN configuration if you use the same wire to generate it. Eddy currents of course remain. No output from central core.

I will check these things out from the knowledge given by Hanon but my question still remains unanswered.   What is the effect on induced emf if the current is AC or if the current is pulsed DC? And whether information given by Hanon is correct.

Would be grateful if other friends would clear up. But from experience I can tell you that to a certain extend increasing the amperage results in increased efficiency and then the iron creates so much of sound we do not dare to go further increase the amperage. Amperage increase is controlled by connecting the primary to resistive loads. We can increase or decrease that way. The same effect is present for both single solenoid and a transformer kind of solenoid where we have both primary and secondary..Secondly I'm not able to understand the formula emf = N·Area·nu·(I_max - I_min)/Time  When we give current the amperage is constant. Where is the question of I max and Imin here..For an electromagnet to hold itself stable again I is constant. I in my understanding here is amperage. Where do we get Imax and Imin..


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Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #766 on: February 26, 2014, 02:13:29 AM »
When you pulse a coil with dc and do not block the back emf, then it becomes sort of ac, where the negative waveside is spikey. Depending on impedance, the back emf can be very fast, shorter than the dc pulse and in that case, the voltage is higher. The back emf contains the energy that was required to saturate the coil.


Anyhow, it seens to me people didn't notice the meaning of my diagram...


Although I agree, one single core for all 3 coils may be a problem  better "stick to the plan" and use some real gaps. The bloch wall (or what ever it's called when N vs N causes a highly compressed field stenght 2D zone) will be there anyway. You may continue your quest, I for myself have solved the puzzle and explained it sufficently IMHO.

Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #767 on: February 26, 2014, 09:37:24 AM »
 
Hi Ramaswami,
 
The discussion about pole orientation comes from time ago. The problem is that Figuera in 1908 patent did not clearly stated the pole orientation (He did it in the 1902 patent, but not in the 1908 one nor Buforn did it in his latter 5 more patents !!!). I will copy literally what it is written in the 1908 patent (both in the text and in the claims) so that everyone may judge if this a properly way of defining the pole orientation or maybe it is just a patent notation “trick” using the letters “N” and “S”  (Note: in Spanish à North = Norte ,  South  = Sur)
 
In the description:  “Suppose that electromagnets are represented by rectangles N and S. Between their poles is located the induced circuit represented by the line “y” (small)”
 
In the claims: “The machine is essentially characterized by two series of electromagnets which form the inductor circuit, between whose poles the reels of the induced  are properly placed.”
 
We should test every single possible configuration to avoid missing anything.  It is all about testing also this configuration.
 
About the I_max (maximum current Intensity) and I_min (minimum intensity) you will get it from the variable resistors system: if you have a R value in each coil and you have 7 more resistors of the same value, you will have a value of minimum resistance R and a maximum resistance 8·R during a half rotation of the commutator
 
R_min = R  --->  (Ohm´s Law)   --->  I_max = V / R
R_max =8·R  ---> (Ohm´s Law)   --->  I_min = V / 8·R
 
Also note that smaller values in the resistors will get a higher I_min  so the step from I_max to I_min will be smaller which is not good. I used 4.7 ohm in each resistor (able to dissipate 25 W each) with no success so far. You have more testing capability than me so it would be good to test it in your conditions
 
Dieter, some points in your previous posts are very valuable. We need different opinions to enrich this forum. I found very interesting your idea of having two resistor set to create two independent sinusoidal waves. I think it was also posted by Shadow some time ago.
 
Regards

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #767 on: February 26, 2014, 09:37:24 AM »
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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #768 on: February 26, 2014, 01:14:30 PM »
Hanon:

I will check..I can provide a maximum of 230 volts and 18 amps as input. Please advise what is the ohms needed for the wire to reach this figure. Note that I have a fluctuating voltage from 200 to 220 to 230 volts but is is normally in the 220 voltage region.

I agree that we can test the NS-NS-SN configuration. But if we do so the following things would need to be done.

1. I need to create two large electromagnet of equal and opposite powers.. ( unless we are using multiple primary coils)

2. Each coil must be connected separately as an electromagnet. Each coil must be able to handle at least 230 volts and 7 amps pulsed DC. Remember Pulsed DC is more powerful as there is very less impedance in the coils and from our experience  we know that 4 times the number of turns and coils are needed to maintain the stable electromagnet. We would need 960 turns to be precise to hold the electromaganet. Please let me know what is the length of the pipe needed to make this number of turns.

See the solenoid magnetic field calculator here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c1

Please note that the Tesla of the magnetic field strength should not exceed more than 1.5 Tesla to be on the safe side. We can go to higher levels but from our experience only when the magnetic field strength is less it produces better amount of electricity. It is a kind of mystery really as more powerful magnet should produce more powerful output but it does not work that way.

3. The secondary would need to be separate from the primaries by a copper sheet. or we need to use a small plastic sheet that will not block the magnetism but will still act as an air gap.

4. Secondary would need to be half the size or less of the primaries.

5. The secondary would need to be surrounded by strong iron poles or be structured in such a way that it cannot move. 

6. Electrical output can be expected in secondary when pulsed DC is used or AC is used.

7. You need to calculate the ohms of the wire, and not more than 1.5 tesla for a  45 cm length and 10 cm dia electromagnet. I get for 45cm electromagnet with 960 turns at 3 amps itself the 1.6 Tesla range.

8. If we are going to wind it on a 1 metre electromagnet, it would become, for 220 volts and 8 amps we would need 27.5 ohms for the magnet to be stable. 

9. 27.5 ohms will require us to buy 2000 metres of 1.5 sq mm wire. I can try with 2.5 inch dia tubes as they would have less electromagnetism.

10. My multimeter shows 0.005 for the 2k setting of the ohms. What is the ohms. This is a 4 sq mm wire with 327 turns. What would be the amperage for 12 volts. My variac can handle up to 2 amps and so I can test that also for up to some thing like 25 volts. Assuming 5 ohms ( AM I right or wrong?) for 12.84 volts of battery it would be only 2 amps and nothing would happen. We need minimum of 7 to 8 Amps for any thing to happen here. Preferably 12 amps.

11. Assuming 230 volts main connection fuze would blow out guaranteed and the electromagnet at the moment would not withstand that.

12. 220volts/7amps =  32 ohms is the ohms needed. We will need about 2000 metres of 1 sq mm wire for that.

13.  We will try to create two large electromagnets with what is available to me at the moment. 4 sq mm wire. I will calculate the ohms.

14. While all of you talk about the patent and whether it is north or south, you have forgotten Figuera talks about taking electricity from an extrernal generator. He is also talking about reels after reels of wire. If we are going to use batteries, You need to get 100 volts means you need to use 8 batteries. I have only 2 batteries for testing purposes.

15. I will organize this with existing material and then use the pulsed DC.. I'm honestly very very doubtful about the results but I want to honor the friends and so we will do it. I will check the number of turns and check the ohms and then come back to you and tell you whether we can handle it at the moment with materials available with me.

16. I'm really very very doubtful but let us see. Both Doug and others insist it should work.

17. Assuming it works at 220 volts and about 8 amps then we have defintely a working one. Howsoever small and howsoever litttle the voltage is. Whether that would produce enough voltage? I am again doutful for the number of turns woudl be much lesser than in the primaries. But we would have made a basis for the device to be tested as advised by all the friends and so we will know.

18. We will test with what we have and so all of you have the benefit of it. Remember we are going to use airgaps. Very thin plastic sheet. The center cannot move around as we will have it secured and then place weights around it to prevent any movement. We will also need to prevent it from vertically jumping up.

19. This is not a Bifilar coil but just a single wire coil. We can test Bifilar, trifilar, quadfilar etc if this producs results. The Pancake drawing shile impressive shows the pancake outside the magnetic field and it would not work. Pancake should be within the magnet and so I'm going to use only a 25 cm tube for the secondary. About 1 meter tubes of wires for the primary. Let us see if it holds. If it does not hold then we will need to buy small wires that can make the electromagnet to hold at 6 to 7 amps. Problem is that if you increase the number of turns or increase the amps in both cases magnetism will increase and we need low magnetism for the electromagnet to generate electricity in the center.

We will test and let you know..If possible today..If  not tomorrow..

If it does not result in any thing as I expect then we will test the NS-NS-NS configutation. I know that this works but we need to use much smaller diameter rods and much smaller diameter wires for the primary I guess Leaving the secondaries to have larger wires. But again it is a guess and who knows what happens..Strangely the patent of Daniel McFarland Cook talks about using small wire for primaries and large wire for secondaries. Let us test and see..

Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #769 on: February 26, 2014, 01:20:54 PM »
see I'm not using any resistors or any thing like that..Just plain simple solenoids arranged to see what happens if the N-S-N combination would work. It would result in motor action or motion as in induction motors but whether it would result in generator actions we need to wait and see.

I will check AC, pulsed DC and well DC also. Permanent magnets are DC. When they rotate they produce electricity. When the poles of two permanet magnets are held together separated by a coil what would happen in that coil. The same thing should happen here. In my opinion nothing will happen but again who knows..Let us see the results.

We will actually need a very powerful variac for these experiments with up to 20 ampere rating. Let me check if it can be obtained. it will take about a week or so even if it is ordered by us to come. We can simply modify the voltage and depending on the wire ohms, we can modify the amperage and we can use AC, pulsed DC and plaing DC by using a capacitor. We will wait and see.

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #769 on: February 26, 2014, 01:20:54 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #770 on: February 26, 2014, 01:53:57 PM »
Hi Hanon.


When the poles left and right to Y are N and S, then it is indeed just a simple induction transformer. Figuera clearly stated that this is not the case. The imaginary fieldlines of a magnetized coil assemble a torroid, a core may concentrate it in the center. Nonetheless, at the end of the core the field lines exit the core in the center, turn around and go to the other pole on the outside. The magnetical field on the poles is therefor characteristicly strong.  In my Idea, facing the two inducers N to N, the same number of field lines are still present, but they are forced to be compressed on a 2D area. Each line must circle in it's own torroid, no matter how strong the compression is. The result is a high field strenght of ns-sn in a small area.  oscillating this area between the left and right side of Y will reverse the polarity of Y, with only little field strenght variations on the two inducers, but maintain the high, compressed field strenght in Y.


A really nice theory IMHO, but to be fair, it just didn't work. I just made a very small scale test, and I used simple alternating 2 dc pulses. Even tho the coils oscillate as the are supposed to, I get absolutely nothing on the pancake, null, nil, nada, not a Millivolt! Which is really strange.


Anyway I don't give this theory up so quickly, unless somebody's going to explain me where my mistake is.


First I will check the pancake coil, maybe it has a short cirquit. Also my cores may be not usefull, as they are steel spheres right now and the may focusize the fields to some random spots.


Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #771 on: February 26, 2014, 02:07:31 PM »
Hi Dieter:

Please check if you made two different primaries or wound the same wire around both the primaries. Then the magnetism itself would be gone in the primaries. Please check if magnetism is present or not. That is an important thing to first check. If magnetism is not present, no magnetic induction would happen. You need to have two different primaries for your concept to work. Each must be a separate solenoid on its own. Not a single wire.

Let me know if you made this mistake. If not then the NS-NS-SN thing does not work.

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #771 on: February 26, 2014, 02:07:31 PM »
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Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #772 on: February 26, 2014, 02:49:22 PM »
NRamaswami you know you can use a computer power supply to get the amperage you need. my power supply will handle up to 50 amps @ 12 volts. buying a 20 a variac will rip the pocket book to shreds.  you can also use a step up transformer to what ever desired test voltage you want or need, besides the fact you could take wall AC mains through bridge rectifier if need be. as for the doubt as the secondaries being less turns, you have to remember that the sum of each coil output is added as per coil count i.e. secondary 60 volts x 20a x 7 coil outputs = 420 volts x 20A  or what ever combo you need just like a series battery in your flash light. in my case i have 8 coil pairs x 60 = 480 volts at 20 to 30 A. my goal is to run 480 to a transformer to supply house with 220/ 110 or there of. i don't have all my core material yet so i am at a standstill. see  in USA all corporate are thugs and when they find out you are building free energy devise they tend to go sour or charge out the ass. i plan on using 4 mil high Z for my 800 hz DC unit and 11 mil high Z for 60 hz AC unit after i get it perfected. the DC unit is AC ran through bridge rectifier for transportation purposes. i have designed and built  timing boards and They work perfect i am also using a 300 watt vitreous wound adjustable resistor NTEWA series for my 7 middle taps 9 all together counting end taps. i am using MJ11032's for my transistors and if i use higher voltages i will use ESM3030DV power module from ST micro. good luck all....happy Figuering ! P.S. i have also designed a 0 draw solar alarm system for shed or stand alone building and a Board for a Tesla Ion Generator but these are another Story or forum.

Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #773 on: February 26, 2014, 03:46:36 PM »
Hi Marathonman:

Thanks for the kind words.. I'm really a dummy and so do not understand much of it. The only person who can handle transistors and soldering had got sick from soldering and he is no longer willing to do this. The other person who worked for me and who knows the subject is no more. So I do not have any knowledge of Electronics. I have used 50 volts and 16 amps transformers and they are not effective. I have also used 12 volts and 16 amps transformers and they are not effecctive. Only when we have Voltage greater than amperage combination we see real results. In fact that should not happen and powerful magnets when they are vibrating must produce powerful secondaries.  I have an idea as to how Figuera did this and let me check that..I'm short of cash at the moment and we will perform that and come back to you. In India you get every thing for a price. But my understanding is that in US every thing is hyped up and so costly. With this Internet era, we have communications so advanced, information so wide spread, every client bombs me and I need to keep sending and receiving and performing all at the same time. I think I have figured out this device and let me wait and test and then come back to you all.

We will test the N-S-N or S-N-S test tomorrow but I'm very doubtful it would work. Let us wait and see.

 

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #773 on: February 26, 2014, 03:46:36 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #774 on: February 26, 2014, 07:49:18 PM »
@NRamaswami
Yes, I checked their magnetism and also polarity. This is done with a small neodym in my hand, I then clearly feel attraction, repulsion, or the ac vibration. I think my mistake was a completely wrong ratio of dimensions: the effective area of the pancake simply had not enough mass to move a significant charge separation. I'll build it again, with better proportions, closer to the patent drawings.


In the patent there are 2 Y coils. As described in the patent, the primary voltage or pulses alternate in polarity. The 2nd primary coil is 90 degree out of phase, so the flux in both Y never comes to rest. Also, as the polarity in one intuctor alternates with every pulse, this allows the back emf of the coil to add to the next pulse.
So, this "stereo" design may work much better than a straight set of 3 cores/coils.
I have made an interesting observation: I sticked 2 Neodymium magnets together N to N. Then I moved this N-N Area trough a coil. Not only did I reach higher voltages than with the end pole of 2 magnets in nsns constellation, I also had to move the magnet over a shorter distance. The lorentz force although, was stronger, so lenz not violated yet.
I will make tests with the magnet monitoring foil to see how much energy is required to move the compressed N-N Domainbarrier of two permanent magnets a certain distance.
I also wonder when there is a load on the Y coil, how will the primary react, since lorentz force cannot compensate anything in the solid state setup. Maybe the primaries just get hot?






Yeah, Figuera... What a mystery to solve!

Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #775 on: February 26, 2014, 08:22:58 PM »
Hi:

The answer is in your post itself. You moved the Permanent magnet around the coil with the same face facing each other. The repulsive forces are there. The charges are identical and they oppose each other.  You prevented the magnet from turning and rotated the magnet or just moved the magnet. Then this acts like an induction generator. No doubt. This motion would be opposed by the currents when the develop in the coil substantially. What will happen to the primary. I do not know. But what I do know is that we need to secure the secondary as well as both the primaries well from turning or from jumping up. Even then I'm not sure if the repulsive forces alone are enough to cause the secondary to respond. I really do not know. I'm also worried about security. Each one of the primary magnets would weigh about 90 kgms to 100 kgms along with wires and the secondary would weigh about 15 kgm with wire. I suggest that I restrict myself to the NS-NS-NS configuration as you did not get any result except when you moved the magnet. Check if the magnet is stationary if you get any result. or Create an Electromagnet and then the Neodymimum magnets would be vibrating and at that time show the same pole faces to the bifilar pan cake coil. If it responds then it may respond to electromagnet.

I'm really worried about the magnet. These are large powerful iron core ones and if they suddenly move it can break our legs. I just suggest that you do this with your small neodymium magnets in the way I described above when they are not moving and pulsatig and let us see if we get any results and then let me set this up here and then we can check.
 

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #775 on: February 26, 2014, 08:22:58 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #776 on: February 26, 2014, 09:27:30 PM »
No matter if you use nsns or snns , you need to move the magnet anyway to get a voltage. Figuera just substituted the magnet motion by stationary electromagnets. The field still needs to be moved.


It cannot be simple induction, there must be something special, some unusual constellation.


In a nsnsns setup, there is nothing special, this is the same as a transformer. Also note: we say snns, but in fact they are not turned on together, but alternating, so it is more like ns  sn  ns  sn  .... But since the alternation is overlapping (aka 90 degrees out of phase), there may be a socket magnetisation of alternating snns nssn snns nssn...
I agree with you about savety tho. Although, even in a nsnsns setup,  things can be shot trough the air when parts break.

Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #777 on: February 27, 2014, 12:14:06 AM »
Man my head is about to pop! :o i just read every post on this subject and i think my brain is sizzling. i am looking forward to Bajac return, love the work he has done. need more core material to do my initial test run. boards are great but i might have to rethink my vitreous resistor set up and bring the NS-SN crossover closer to zero volts.....hmmmm not sure. oh here is a DC two channel board design i came up with "DIP TRACE FREE" yahoo!

Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #778 on: February 27, 2014, 03:29:34 AM »
I just made some more small scale tests. One thing is for sure: any air or plastic gaps will dramaticly reduce efficiency of inductive coupling, if inductive coupling is the goal at all.
Since in a transformer primary and secondary coils sit on the same sheetsteel or ferrite core, inductive coupling is high. If in the air a N-N confrontation creates an effective pseudopole (in terms of generator efficiency), then why not in a core?


These gaps just give me way too much loss, so I will try it on a single core without gaps.


BTW. funny thing, I tried all kinds of coils for Y, and one time I added a neodym magnet as the core of Y. Due to some kind of mechanical resonance it went from discrete hum up to a loud rattle and gave me 10 times more voltage than any other setup. So, electromagnets cause a permanent magnet to oscillate inside a secondary coil... and gives best results... weird ... But Amps were still near zero. Considering the setup consumed 20 watts, this is just emberassing. :-[

Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #779 on: February 27, 2014, 04:13:24 AM »
Because of inductive losses are so high i would suggest that your primary cores are twice as big as your secondary core and of IRON. also you should have more windings on your primary as well as higher voltages. try minimizing your gap to paper thin . do what i did ... i read every post on this subject.all 50 + of them...much better understanding of things. just remember the wright brothers crashed and burned many, many time before those nuts got it right. just remember that the next time you fly..........they didn't give up! and also NO this is not a regular transformer. a regular transformer can not get away from Mr. Lorentz but Mr. Figueras with his split core did and took his wife to....ha ha ha!

 

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