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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1842127 times)

Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1035 on: March 19, 2014, 01:19:40 PM »
Correct me if i am wrong but according to my calculations at 18 awg wire in which i am using for my Primaries, it is 6.385 ohms per 1000 ft of wire which is a lot of wire. even at that absurd length 7 Primaries is only 44.695 ohms and at 100 volts 100 ohms i will get 1 amp so i will have to adjust the ohmage accordingly. this doesn't seem to difficult to me or am i missing something. all i have to do is adjust the ohmage to achieve my desired amperage through 9 resistor taps down to .1 amps on the low side, 1 amp for high side. hummmm! does't seem to difficult to me.

Doug;
 "none of the inducer magnets going into a non magnetic state or a reverse state"

The whole idea of Figueras splitting up the primaries are to not have to be in a zero magnetic or reverse state. it takes a whole lot more power to reverse the domains of the iron core. by reversing the poles of the electromagnets one N/S and one S/N he didn't have to worry about Hysteresis in the Primaries at all.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1036 on: March 19, 2014, 02:16:11 PM »
Marathonman:

1000 feet is not a lot of wire.. I'm already using 5000 feet of wire.. Yes.. You are right the impedance of the coil is the key.

Doug:

See the current flows from NP1->NP2--->NP7 ---SP7-->SP6-- ---SP1

There are 14 primaries.. It is not necessary for the primaries to lose magnetism..Who knows what is 1/50th of a second..The idea is that the opposite side magnets must become stronger and weaker. If NP is stronger SP is weaker and When SP becomes stronger NP becomes weaker..This creates a state where the magnetic flux is forced to flow in to the secondary.

I have already reached the 200 watts level. Magnetism is increased and remains constant..It needs to oscillate.. That is what the commutator and resistor circuit does..So at very low power input, we have high magnetic flux in the system which makes the secondary get high power output..

I have experienced this when I used high power 200 volts and 7 amps and just two primaries..There are certain things that I'm not disclosing fully here yet but when we have a high electric field and magnetic field combination the secondary is able to produce an excellent output. Figuera has done the same thing at low power input..For a low power input can be easily supplied from the output..Of course secondary will oppose the primary and so we can put a variac to be powered by the secondary output and then use that to provide a fixed input to the system..It becomes part of the output..

Unfortunately I ended up having too much of volts.. And we hit it when we did not have any turns calculations. And we are doing all these things again..

Now for a teaser let me know what will be the output in the transformer below.

Teaser:

I wind 100 turns of insulated wire on a iron pipe within which I put a lot of iron rods. This is the secondary.

Outside of the insulated wire I put another lot of iron rods and then wind the primary insulated wire for 100 turns..

Both the primary and secondary are same guage insulated wires.

The primary input is 220 volts and 7 amps What will be the output of the secondary?

This is a practical hands on experience, first hand experience knowledge and let me see if you can calculate and tell me the answer. I'm sure most will fail this test..Any one can take this test..

Offline Cadman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1037 on: March 19, 2014, 03:23:22 PM »
Nramaswami,

The Buforn patent shows the commutator jumpers at the upper left corner of the drawing, as you noted. Just overlay that commutator drawing onto the one with the resistor wire connections and you will see that when jumpered as indicated, and the resistor wires are connected where indicated, that as the brush traverses the commutator there will always be an electrical connection from the brush to a resistor wire. The brush specified (always in contact with two commutator bars) will contact at least two resistor wires at all times, except when the brush is over bars 4 – 5, and 12 – 13. At those points only one resistor wire will be connected. These are the two points of increased 'dwell' I wrote about earlier. For clarity I refer to commutator bar #1 as the bar at the one o'clock position, which is connected to the fifth resistor wire from the left.

@All,
I keep telling everyone that there is nothing hidden in the Buforn patent but it seems few are listening. The only mystery to solve is the correct combination of core size, coil construction, number of coil sets, excitation current, and frequency (commutator rotation speed).

We may discover some unique properties of this generator after it is built. But first it has to be built according to the patent.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1037 on: March 19, 2014, 03:23:22 PM »
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Offline Cadman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1038 on: March 19, 2014, 05:18:01 PM »
This is what I am building

Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1039 on: March 19, 2014, 05:33:24 PM »
I plan on going with everything in the patent but i can't swallow the inefficient commutator.  i think he used it because solid state wasn't present and since there is no spark involved i see no reason to use it. i can do the same with solid state and with way less power than the motor takes to rotate the commutator plus no parts to wear out  and easier to implement.

 the picture of Figueras device clearly shows that the Primaries are larger than the Secondaries in which i am making my Primary core 4 times the square of the Secondaries so the only concern i have with that is to not saturate the secondaries as this will mangle the output. i will be doing test in the next week to see just how much flux the primaries will put out and then calculate the ball park figure as to the saturation level of the Secondaries and adjust accordingly. this is one thing i haven't heard any one talk about.

ps. i just redesigned my timing board to accommodate switching transistors MJH11022 TO-247 package. ran through a vitreous wound resistor network ie... 9 resistor taps

HAPPY FIGUERING

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1039 on: March 19, 2014, 05:33:24 PM »
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Offline Cadman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1040 on: March 19, 2014, 05:52:02 PM »
Marathonman,

Personally I hope to confirm the validity of the original patent design, on a small scale. I think it's great that there are so many different builds going on. Something for everyone.

Anxiously awaiting everyone's results :)

Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1041 on: March 19, 2014, 07:18:57 PM »
Marathonman,

Personally I hope to confirm the validity of the original patent design, on a small scale. I think it's great that there are so many different builds going on. Something for everyone.

Anxiously awaiting everyone's results :)

You sure got that right. i feel like a kid in a candy store with this project. i can't even remember the last time i was so excited to build a project.


GOOD LUCK ALL

 and stick it to the man !

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1041 on: March 19, 2014, 07:18:57 PM »
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Offline Cadman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1042 on: March 19, 2014, 07:36:18 PM »
Quote
the only concern i have with that is to not saturate the secondaries as this will mangle the output. i will be doing test in the next week to see just how much flux the primaries will put out and then calculate the ball park figure as to the saturation level of the Secondaries and adjust accordingly. this is one thing i haven't heard any one talk about.

This jogged my memory. While experimenting with the Arduino setup last summer, capturing the field collapse of the primaries, I inadvertently left the DC power disconnected from the board so it was only running on the output from the controller (2.5 vdc). After leaving the rig running for a while the volts from the field collapse suddenly increased from a few volts to over 20 volts rectified DC and remained there.
This makes me wonder, if we saturate the induced core and then lower the excitation current to a fraction of the starting current, and then oscillate it to keep the core fluctuating right at or just below the core's magnetic saturation point, would we get good output from the induced coils vs the input current?

Hmmm.. reminds me of something Tesla once said, about keeping the tension right at the breaking point..


Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1043 on: March 19, 2014, 08:27:34 PM »
This jogged my memory. While experimenting with the Arduino setup last summer, capturing the field collapse of the primaries, I inadvertently left the DC power disconnected from the board so it was only running on the output from the controller (2.5 vdc). After leaving the rig running for a while the volts from the field collapse suddenly increased from a few volts to over 20 volts rectified DC and remained there.
This makes me wonder, if we saturate the induced core and then lower the excitation current to a fraction of the starting current, and then oscillate it to keep the core fluctuating right at or just below the core's magnetic saturation point, would we get good output from the induced coils vs the input current?

Hmmm.. reminds me of something Tesla once said, about keeping the tension right at the breaking point..

This seems to be a unexpected behaviour.... and all that kind of things is what we are looking for. Common science do not explain these devices.
 
Could you explain more clear how the system was set up and the values of the current?
 
Cadman, I am with you. The most important step now it to replicate the patent as it is written. Later it will be time for modifications.
 
Regards 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1043 on: March 19, 2014, 08:27:34 PM »
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Offline shadow119g

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1044 on: March 19, 2014, 10:15:55 PM »
Cadman

I believe that you have built a reasonable working model of the Figeura Device. I think
your electronic commutator is the way to go. So my next step will be to build your
electronic "commutator."
I have been working for a long time on the mechanical commutators and they are hard
to get right. I said a while back that I believe that solid state device is far superior
than an "old school" mechanical one. The only other way to build a mechanical
commutator would be to have a moving brush inside of a barrel of contacts. This
would be very difficult to build, but may be the answer to the mechanical commutator.
The following are some pictures of my commutators and transformers I have made.
Picture 1 is the 32 pin commutator with 1800 RPM motor = 60 hz
Picture 2 is the commutator and brush holder broken down
Picture 3 is the commutator showing the 12Volt DC + connection brush to rotating brush.
Picture 4 is the 16 pin commutator with the 3600 RPM (Old grinder I built)
Picture 5 is the transformer layout
The 32 pin commutator worked much better than the 16 pin because of excess sparking
at the higher speed.
All were a challenge to build as even the slower motor that I trashed by accident sparked
at one point on the circle of electric contacts.

Good luck to all,

Shadow

Offline shadow119g

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1045 on: March 19, 2014, 10:18:26 PM »
Try number two:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1045 on: March 19, 2014, 10:18:26 PM »
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Offline marathonman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1046 on: March 20, 2014, 02:20:58 AM »
Shadow119g;

wow! excellent build quality.

Offline Cadman

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1047 on: March 20, 2014, 03:56:30 AM »
Hanon,

The system setup was very simple and not worth study except for the curious bemf increase. I never did get around to measuring the current, just voltage. I found the old post about it http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12439-re-inventing-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-18.html#post240778 and the circuit is attached below. Just take out the battery symbol and you have it.
Actually I don't think it is relevant to the Buforn patent, other than the possible core saturation aspect of it. He certainly didn't use transistors and diodes back then. Maybe those using a solid state driver could make use of it though.

shadow119g, it's kind of funny. You going to the solid state driver from the mechanical commutator, and me doing the opposite. Best of luck to you. Your commutators are quite large compared to mine, so maybe that will make a difference. This is the one I am using http://store.eurtonelectric.com/12bar98brushdiametertangcommutatord-600-3.aspx


Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1048 on: March 20, 2014, 04:03:27 AM »
Hi All:

You can use the tool here to calculate what is the tesla that you are going to get.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html

Permeability varies from material to material and this uses soft iron permeability as standard I think.

You can easily understand the core saturation point for the iron will start roaring and not humming at that point. It will get hot and you should try to remain within the 2 to 3 Tesla figures. A sudden increase begins at 3.5 Tesla ranges. And if you go to 4 tesla ranges a chain reaction might ensure that can make even the iron melt as per books.

In my personal experience, if we have reasonable level of magnetism Neither far high nor far low, output is reasonably good. Excessive core saturation while increasing the output makes the iron rods very hot and it makes a lot of sound. I typically avoid that point.

Using the tool above you can see you can vary the length of the electromagnet, number of turns per unit lenth and the amperes to arrive at the Tesla figures. However this is not an accurate one for it does not provide for the Diameter of the solenoid. If the diameter of the solenoid changes then the size of the iron inside changes and that has a major impact on saturation points and this is not included in this calculator. So we can take it as a calculation tool but it is not an exact tool. It gives us a rought idea and whether we have reached core saturation or not can be recognized by the sound of the iron. I do not have gauss meters but the just the sound is enough to tell us whether we are going to a higher level.

Very high magnetic field strength must be avoided and it is better to put more iron core at a lower tesla level as the iron will not get hot and the effect will be the same and safety is assured.


Offline dieter

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #1049 on: March 20, 2014, 04:15:08 AM »
Indeed, a lot of creativity is going on there, good work.


Here's a simple and quick method: open a power supply, eg. 230>12V, add a  cable from 12v ac, so now the device has 12 v dc and ac output. Take 4 diodes, connect 2 to each ac pin, one to the ring side(cathode, +), the other reverse. Now connect two cable pairs to the other ends of the diodes, each pair gets a plus and a minus side of a diode, but from diffrent ac pins. This way you get two dc pulses, on separate cables, alternating, like:


A_A_A_A_...
_A_A_A_A...


Now you can add a resistor to the dc supply output and mix it to the pulses, if you want the current not to be off between pulses.  Tho, such a DC offset may not be required.


BTW. I apologize for creating the impression that airgaps are in the patent. On some webpages the patent drawings were mixed with drawings from an unknown person (patrick kelly?), so I though they were part of the patent.


As I already mentioned, redirection of back mmf seems to be the point. We do not want a simple transformer.

It is interesting how little people understand about induction, even electrical engineers. One thing we have to make sure is that  we're talking about the same thing  with the terms "back emf" and "back mmf". Somebody said they are the same. I disagree.

Back electromotive force is the term used for the pulse of current and voltage that flows in reverse polarity when the power to a coil is interrupted, aka the collapsing B (or magnetical) field. Basicly this happens in AC in each cycle and usually a transformer tries to resonate in that this back emf is added to the next halfwave, that then has the same polarity like the back emf .
In a low impedance inductor coil the current of the back emf is usually low and the voltage high.  Let us for now ignore the back emf here.

Then there is the back magnetomotive force. it has nothing to do with field collapse, but with self induction. The controversal issue of induction itself makes it confusing: a current will only be induced in the 2ndary when the B field is in change. Nevertheless, as soon as there IS a current in the 2ndary, this coil will immediately become an electromagnet, aka an inductor, to itself. Unfortunately the generated magnetism (the back mmf!) opposes that of the primary. No problem yet, since we can draw current from the secondary, but what happens now, is: as long as there is no load on the  secondary, the transformer does not consume watts, it is running 90 deg. out of phase automaticly, therefor no consumption. But when a load is added to the secondary, the back mmf by returning back to the primary, will force it into phase. The more current you draw, the more it runs in phase and the more energy is consumed by the primary.

So, if we prevent the back mmf from returning to the primary, it will continue to run 90 deg out of phase, but allow to draw from the output nonetheless.

The sooner or later we'll FIGUERA it out...

Regards

 

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