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Author Topic: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device  (Read 52879 times)

Offline johnny874

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2012, 04:23:06 PM »
hey Jim.
right just to make sure this is clear in my mind.

let me break it down, for every 1cm up, there is 7 cm down at an angle right?

so you could make a small demo machine that uses the same principle, a triangle in the middle then an outer frame, connect 8 balls together with string and put them at different points so that 1 is about the clime the stright up and the other 7 are positioned at equal pints around the down side starting right at the top of the incline and finishing 7cm away from the either ball that is about to climb the 7cm vertical rise.
if this design works then the balls in the machine would start by them selves and keep going until all the ballls hd baan up the vertical slope and the eight ball was just about to ascend.

It would be an easy experiment to test your theory however the downward angle would act as gearing that would make them 7 times less effective than the ball going up, so in short, ball bumber8 wouldnt go anywhere.

try it, its using the same principal as a wheel and motor but would be cheap to build and test.
if iv got it wrong then i apologize.
If in doubt, build the machine and see. after all if motors and alternators are being used, you should be able to increase the amount of weights /ball to make the machine a self runner.

  lightend,
 I am going to ask helloha if he might be interested in making an animation.
With this, if a weight drops paralell to the axle, (using 1 meter for refernce, 100%),
if one weight is 70 cm's from the axle and the one being lifted is 10 cm's, it is a nice 7to 1 ratio.
4 or 6 weights would be all that is needed to try something like this.
 How it could work is when the weights are lifted by a belt, it can roll off of it and down a ramp and land
on the outside of the wheel. When the wheel rotates, the slot the ball is in will have a downward angle allowing it
to roll onto a ramp and to the bottom of the belt.
 What it would be taking advantage of if possible is that a weight at 1 meter could lift a weight the same height or
slightly higher than what it drops because the forces would be calculated to be in equilibrium if it 70 cm's of torque.
 Will repost this in helloha's thread and see if he'll work his magic.
 
                                                                                                                           Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline johnny874

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2012, 10:15:49 PM »
  @All,
 Doubt this could work unless the original idea of using a generator and motor can work.
 Why I  think the orignal idea might be possible is the falling weight would be moving faster than the weight being lifted.

Jim

Offline Neo-X

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2012, 09:02:49 AM »
In my opinion, the exess energy is not comming from the gravity but in either generator or in motor.

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2012, 09:02:49 AM »
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Offline lightend

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2012, 03:35:31 PM »
ok, well if your minds made up, all i can do is give some advice on how to make the build easier.

rather than using a weight and having the motor turn on and turn off,
if could be better to use water, send the water up then let it trickle down over a larger waterwheel type arrangement (or a belt), this would eliminate the need for tricky things like auto starting motors when the weight gets to the bottom.

for an added bit of consideration, you could consider submerging the whole device and turning it upside down to use air

just something to consider if your going to try and build it.
best of luck to you
cheers
mark

Offline lightend

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2012, 03:57:20 PM »
ohhh, i get it now, you are trying to use the added torque from the end of the shaft to the central point.
thats more interesting than what i thought you were thinking of building (must have past me by the first couple of times i looked at the pictures)

I still think that it will have the effect of gearing it.
the wheel will move slower, so to speed it up you will have to put with through a gearbox to get it to 1,500rpm. if the wheel moves at 10 rpm. you will need a 150:1 gearbox, which will mean the weight will need to be 150x heavier, of course you could make the wheel bigger but then it will go slower so the weight will have to be heavier still to be able to move the increase of gearing.
every time you make the weight heavier to move the wheel, you will need to increase the size of the motor lifting the weight.

so your stuck in a loop of every increasing the size of the wheel and the gearing and the weight and the motor.
other wise you could just connect a large wheel to an alternator and on the out side of that wheel put a motor, this is essentially what this design is doing.

let me have a think,
if 1 ball going down could pull up a weight going up (by using 4 connected wheels and 4 weights) ....mmmm, that would also need gearing, unless you though of a way that hasn't been tried before.
cheers
mark



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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2012, 03:57:20 PM »
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Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »
  I think the aspect of this design you may be missing is in the second stage where the weights climb the main chain.  As they do they are still hanging on the chain, so they are still giving a full 500 pound pull on the chain to drive the generator to continue putting a full charge into the battery.  The generator is operating the entire time.  If that time is 3.5 minutes, it is putting 3.5 minutes of a full charge from a 500 pound pull into the battery, and needing only enough charge from that stored charge to drive a 300 pound pull energy need for 30 seconds (50 pound pull to move the big wheel, and 6 times more to move it faster). Again, the slower the descent, the faster the ascent, the more 'free to use' energy is stored in the battery.
Time to rise & fall has nothing to do with it except for determining POWER [rate of doing WORK].

WORK in both instances is Force x Distance/Displacement which is the same for both rise & fall since the mass doesn't change nor the distance traveled.

This assumes NO ordinary system losses to frictions etc which would bring it automatically to sub-unity.

N.B.1. the Work-Energy Equivalence Principle is a doctrine of physics - it says that since Work units are the same as Energy units they are equivalent & interchangeable - therefore Work [fxd] is done to lift a mass & it is given energy of position [PE] which can be released as kinetic energy [KE] to do Work.

N.B.2. Energy is Capability or Capacity to do Work.

N.B.3. example: a hanging weight driven clock is given energy of position by raising the mass - the mass looses height over time - the KE of the mass does not translate into a one for one relationship with PE lost as height decreases - the 'missing' energy is the KE of the clock parts in motion, friction losses to heat, sound, windage etc - the main loss is to 'internal' energy [PE & KE] of the atoms of the system & can be reviewed by researching the history of thermodynamics.

This mass is raised quickly & falls very slowly but it is not OU.

Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »
  Home wind generators need only 200-300 rpms to operate. Secondly, as the weights ascend, because they are ascending still hanging on the main chain, they are still giving a 500 pound pull on the chain to continue to generate a full charge into the battery.  The full charge from the 500 pound pull is continuous.  If the whole cycle is 3.5 minutes, the battery is charged for that amount of time with a full charge from a 500 pound power source, and needing only 30 seconds of energy to produe a 300 pound pull from the small motor (50 pound pull to move the large wheel, times 6 to move it faster).
ohhh, i get it now, you are trying to use the added torque from the end of the shaft to the central point.
thats more interesting than what i thought you were thinking of building (must have past me by the first couple of times i looked at the pictures)

I still think that it will have the effect of gearing it.
the wheel will move slower, so to speed it up you will have to put with through a gearbox to get it to 1,500rpm. if the wheel moves at 10 rpm. you will need a 150:1 gearbox, which will mean the weight will need to be 150x heavier, of course you could make the wheel bigger but then it will go slower so the weight will have to be heavier still to be able to move the increase of gearing.
every time you make the weight heavier to move the wheel, you will need to increase the size of the motor lifting the weight.

so your stuck in a loop of every increasing the size of the wheel and the gearing and the weight and the motor.
other wise you could just connect a large wheel to an alternator and on the out side of that wheel put a motor, this is essentially what this design is doing.

let me have a think,
if 1 ball going down could pull up a weight going up (by using 4 connected wheels and 4 weights) ....mmmm, that would also need gearing, unless you though of a way that hasn't been tried before.
cheers
mark

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »
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Offline lightend

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2013, 05:15:08 AM »
This is true, but lets look at other examples of this.
1 car accelerating drives  100m in 30 seconds =fuel usage is = x
1 car drives the 100m in a very slow speed of 6 mins = fuel usage =x -1
in a car, going slower saves petrol, and going fast uses more petrol (petrol = power here)
however power , when dealing with gravity, is always equal going up and going down.
then you only have extra losses of friction to take into account.

regarding the low RPMs of self built wind turbines. you are correct of course, but low rpms = low volatage + the wind turbines people make for them selves are low amp-age, low voltage and low amp-age = low wattage  (low wattage = low power)
the reason I went on about rpms is thinking of alternators, 1,500rpm on a 1kw alternator isnt too hard to turn if you are turning it at 1,500rpm, however if you are turning it at 10rpm (slower down hill speed)  then you need a gearbox to speed it up, which then turns into a world or never ending up grades to try and do the impossible.


i dont know why im still going on about this. look its simple to build, a couple of reclaimed motors should do it or 1 motor and 1 car alternator, a bit of wood and a couple of wheels with some bike chains.
build it and see for your self. (you could save money by only using tiny 15w motors)
better advice would be to look at something else as this is not going to work.

sorry buddy, but just build the thing and see for your self. I have designs which I think will work but before I run around like a headless chicken I build them (out of things like wood, foam from a childs play mat, specially made plastic to replace the need for metal, I have 1 x 120 watt motor and when I am trying something else I chuck on a gear head that slows it down or speeds it up so its like owning LOAD of different speed motors but at a fraction of the price, I have bearings from japan that i can use over and over, bike chains, motorbike chains, pulleys, wheels, plastic bottles filled with concrete, all sorts., so why dont you start building a collection of things that you can use to test your theories)

Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 04:45:22 PM »
 I just wanted to share one more point about this mechanism.  With one in operation there are +- seven 30 second periods of charging into the battery, and one drawing from the battery.  With 10 mechanisms there will be 70 and 10 respectively. That is 35 minutes of charging, and 5 minutes of drawing. Each mechanism, while ascending, will be drawing from: 1)  The charge it is producing into the battery while ascending, 2) The charge it put into the battery while descending, 3) The charge in the battery put there by the other mechanisms, and 4) The charge the others are putting in as they are descending.  At  least two others will be descending as one is ascending at any time.  This is where the excess 'free' to use energy is created. Regards, Russ
   @All,
 this is the diagram I was talking about. If a weight is lifted 10 cm's from the axle and the weight on the lever
is 70 cm's from the axle, we have a ratio of 7 to 1. As an arm would rotate, the leveraged force would increase
to a ratio of 10 to 1 becoming even more efficient.
 If you consider gearing something like this at a 7 to 1 ratio, then any distance beyond 70 cm's that the motive
weight happens to be should be extra energy. And with electricity as this design supports, the weight moving
upward (being lifted) is travelling requires a lesser velocity than the the force generating energy. This is where
f = ma comes into play. A weight moving at 1.57 m/s will generate more energy that a weight moving the same
vertical height moving at 1.414 m/s. Math does support an approximate 10% net gain.
 
                                                                                                                                    Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 04:45:22 PM »
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Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 04:52:57 PM »
  I just wanted to add one more point about this mechanism.
  With one in operation the are +- seven 30 second periods of charging into the battery, and one of drawing from the battery.  With ten mechanisms the are 70, and 10 respectively.  That is 35 minutes of charging and 5 minutes of drawing.
  As one ascends it is drawing energy from: 1) The energy it is generating during it's ascent, 2) The energy it charged into the battery during it's descent, 3) The energy the other mechanisims charged into the battery, and 4) The energy the others are then charging into the battery during their descending.  At any time when there is one ascending there are at least two descending.  This is where the excess 'free' to use energy is generated.
                  Regards, Russ
This is true, but lets look at other examples of this.
1 car accelerating drives  100m in 30 seconds =fuel usage is = x
1 car drives the 100m in a very slow speed of 6 mins = fuel usage =x -1
in a car, going slower saves petrol, and going fast uses more petrol (petrol = power here)
however power , when dealing with gravity, is always equal going up and going down.
then you only have extra losses of friction to take into account.

regarding the low RPMs of self built wind turbines. you are correct of course, but low rpms = low volatage + the wind turbines people make for them selves are low amp-age, low voltage and low amp-age = low wattage  (low wattage = low power)
the reason I went on about rpms is thinking of alternators, 1,500rpm on a 1kw alternator isnt too hard to turn if you are turning it at 1,500rpm, however if you are turning it at 10rpm (slower down hill speed)  then you need a gearbox to speed it up, which then turns into a world or never ending up grades to try and do the impossible.


i dont know why im still going on about this. look its simple to build, a couple of reclaimed motors should do it or 1 motor and 1 car alternator, a bit of wood and a couple of wheels with some bike chains.
build it and see for your self. (you could save money by only using tiny 15w motors)
better advice would be to look at something else as this is not going to work.

sorry buddy, but just build the thing and see for your self. I have designs which I think will work but before I run around like a headless chicken I build them (out of things like wood, foam from a childs play mat, specially made plastic to replace the need for metal, I have 1 x 120 watt motor and when I am trying something else I chuck on a gear head that slows it down or speeds it up so its like owning LOAD of different speed motors but at a fraction of the price, I have bearings from japan that i can use over and over, bike chains, motorbike chains, pulleys, wheels, plastic bottles filled with concrete, all sorts., so why dont you start building a collection of things that you can use to test your theories)

Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 05:16:53 PM »
 Neo-X,
  Information added to the squidoo site shows that if there are ten of these simple mechanisms charging into the same battery bank there will be seventy 30 second periods of charging, and 10 of drawing out. That is 35 minutes of charging, and 5 minutes of drawing out.  Whenever there is one descending there will be at least two others descending at the same time charging more into the battery than the one descending is drawing out (because as it ascends it also is generating energy to the battery).  Regards, Russell Lee
Okey lets check this theory if this was true using calculation and using the above example. We can say that the input power was the power to move the 500lbs weight on the top (lets say 10meters) for 30second and the output power was the power excerted by gravity to move the weight downward by 10meters for 3minutes.

Input Time = 30s
Output Time = 3x60= 180s
Mass = 500lbs = 226.79kg
Distance = 10m

Work = M x G x D
= 226.79 x 9.8 x 10
= 22225.42 joules

Input Power= W x Ti
= 22225.42 x 30
= 666762.6 watts

Output Power = W x To
= 22225.42 x 180
= 4000575.6 watts

Excess Power = Po - Pi
= 4000575.6 - 666762.6
= 3,333,813 watts
very simple calculation :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 05:16:53 PM »
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Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 08:54:08 PM »
  There are two FE generators on this site, please do not confuse the Pinwheel Generator with the Power Multiplier Device. Thank you, Russell Lee
www.squidoo.com/pinwheelgenerator   This generator produces at least seven times the energy than it needs to run.
                Thank you, Russell Lee

Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2013, 08:21:47 PM »
 *Important* As the weight/bracket assembly is climbing the chain it still has it's weight hanging on the chain pulling it down as it climbs, still generating a full charge into the battery. This replaces the lion's share of the energy the small motor is pulling out of the battery to use for it's purpose.  This is how there is excess 'free to use' energy being generated. Regared, Russell Lee
www.squidoo.com/pinwheelgenerator   This generator produces at least seven times the energy than it needs to run.
                Thank you, Russell Lee

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 11:10:24 AM »
How many times is it neccessary to remind you folks that gravity cannot do work?


Gravity is only a permanent force. In order to get energy out of it, that force must alternate naturally - which it doesn't. It is constant.


A weight must be applied less gravity when it rise, and applied more gravity when it falls. This is the only way to get energy out of gravity and weights. If gravity doesn't change (Which it doesn't), the weight cannot provide any useful work.


Vidar

Offline ingyenenergiagep

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Re: Seven times more energy output than input: Power Multiplier Device
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 08:31:04 PM »
"Input Time = 30s
Output Time = 3x60= 180s
Mass = 500lbs = 226.79kg
Distance = 10m

Work = M x G x D
= 226.79 x 9.8 x 10
= 22225.42 joules

Input Power= W x Ti
= 22225.42 x 30
= 666762.6 watts

Output Power = W x To
= 22225.42 x 180
= 4000575.6 watts

Excess Power = Po - Pi
= 4000575.6 - 666762.6
= 3,333,813 watts"

E= m x g xh
226.79kg x 9,81 x 10m=22248,099J

30s 741,6033W
180s 123,6W

 

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