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Author Topic: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel  (Read 321029 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 01:09:19 PM »
While I admire animations I do not trust them because they can do thing that are not real. With that I'll summarize where I am after many great idea failures of my own. When I see great movements in drawings and animations its not about movements but center of gravity.

So lets get to the basics
to make a balanced wheel rotate you have to shift the CG  by lifting
a weight up and that takes work - ie moving something down takes no
work and moving something horizontal takes little work..
I have such a mechanism based on the garage door we all know but then comes
the problem and that is the reset so we can repeat the process. Attracting magnets have the same problem. 

So when I look at a movement I look to see where the CG is and frequently the movement ends up making the wheel bottom heavy and that will make it stop.
For example suppose we have weights on a balanced wheel and we move the one at the top up such that the CG is higher and the wheel rotates from that weight rotating and falling to the bottom of the wheel. We used work to move it up and get rotation and we have to use more work to move it back to a balanced position.

So I simply say look at the CG to see if it will work.

Norman



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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 01:09:19 PM »

Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 08:59:46 PM »
  helloha,
 This is an idea I've discussed with someone. they tried building it but with how many scissors/levers
it takes, I could understand why they were cool to the idea.
 It's based on Bessler's Mt's 25, 26 and 138. When the lever rotates 90 degrees, it would cause the scissors
to fully extend. And when the lever passes bottom center, it would slowly start retracting the scissors.
 In the drawing, the scissors have a total of 20  -  2 inch links. And when the lever rotates extending them,
the red line is a link or could be a tether to the top of the scissors. With it being a tether, there would be a
pulley above the scissor and on the bottom of the lever so a line could be looped kind of like a fan belt on a car.
 I know it'd be a lot of work but thought I'd mention it. I'm going to take a break from this, it's a lot of
math and that gets old after a while.
 With something like this, just one set would show if something like this might be possible and if Bessler
might have done something like this.
 
                                                                                                       Jim
     

Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 02:32:41 PM »

 With something like this, just one set would show if something like this might be possible and if Bessler
might have done something like this.
 
                                                                                                       Jim
   

  @All,
 the trick with something like this is the weight on the scissors would weigh about 10 times as much as the weight on the lever.
With such a ratio, if the scissors open from 28 to 32 inches, the weight on the lever is accounted for and any extra extension would be over balance. Using a distance of 2 inches from center of pivot to center of pivot on the links, a link being pulled down 1.4 inches could open
the scissors as much as 12 inches. In reality, it might only be 10 inches. This would have the equivalent of a 1 1/4 lb. weight being added
to the outside of the wheel.
 If pulles were used, they'd be attached to the frame of the wheel and loop like in the drawing. This would mean that as the lever rotated 90 degrees
ahead or 90 degrees back, the scissors would open or close accordingly.
 Only reason I mention pulley's is that Bessler said he used them as well as scissors. This si one way the could work together with a lever.
 
                                                                                                                                                             Jim
 
edited to add; thought I'd mention that with something like this, if the scissors are retracted close to bottom center, then 2 scissors might be extended on the over balance side at the same time. Kind of wish Anthiny Burr were here. He did some really good work with scissors, his shot out like a rocket.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlLre-lEgqE&feature=autoplay&list=UUoikS5b8Ybmou9b6KfQl_uw&playnext=1

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 02:32:41 PM »
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Offline helloha

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 01:04:58 PM »

So when I look at a movement I look to see where the CG is and frequently the movement ends up making the wheel bottom heavy and that will make it stop.
For example suppose we have weights on a balanced wheel and we move the one at the top up such that the CG is higher and the wheel rotates from that weight rotating and falling to the bottom of the wheel. We used work to move it up and get rotation and we have to use more work to move it back to a balanced position.

So I simply say look at the CG to see if it will work.

Norman


norman, a wise man with a wise word.
unfortunately, i wasnt knowledgeable to determine roughly where center of gravity is.  :-[

Offline helloha

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 01:11:02 PM »
the bessler wheel is way to advance for normal brain like me to understand  ??? :o

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 01:11:02 PM »
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Offline helloha

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 01:15:29 PM »
yet the same similar cg of previous version, just mirror the model to see how's the outcome.

http://youtu.be/D-R2Q9u8tVg

Offline norman6538

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 01:16:37 PM »

norman, a wise man with a wise word.
unfortunately, i wasnt knowledgeable to determine roughly where center of gravity is.  :-[

After many failures I got smarter.

There is an interesting discussion going on here where you can see the right shift
of the CG.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12341-mikhail-dmitriyev-input-1000-w-output-near-3000-w-2.html

I like this video best

tips weights by hand and the wheel starts turning  partial set of weights
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikrznic8j9omlgu/k1DwYs7jaV/Videos#f:Stage%201.avi

here he tips the bottom and the wheel starts to turn
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikrznic8j9omlgu/k1DwYs7jaV/Videos#f:Stage%202.avi
he has it hooked up to an alternator
at 22 secs 3pm extended outside circle
at 3pm the arms are extended 32 secs

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 01:16:37 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »
yet the same similar cg of previous version, just mirror the model to see how's the outcome.

http://youtu.be/D-R2Q9u8tVg

  helloha,
 if one person could do everything, I would be nervous. years ago i built some wheels to test idea's
similar to what you are modeling. One thing I realized is that when the weight is lifted towards the
axle, it resists the motion of the wheel.
 What I have since realized is that a simple cog can allow for a weight to be pulled towards the axle
of the wheel while creating little if any resistence. What it does is shorten a line the weight is attached
to.
 Hope you don't mind if I used your drawing. the white line shows where over balance is lost. The white circle
shows how the cog can be placed to pull the weight towards center. And the red line of course is the tether.
 The math for such a thought is PiR^2/4 - R = x.
 An example is 3.142 * 2 squared divided by 4 minus 2 = x.
                         12.58 / 4 = 3.14 - 2 (the radius) = 1.14
 if the radius of the cog is 2 inches, then it could shorten the radial path of a weigth by 1.14 inches. And this
would be with no work being performed, actually, work would be performed but at no cost.
 
                                                                                                                      Jim

Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 04:01:40 PM »
  helloha,
 this is about what a basic cog would look like. As the wheel rotates, the line
would wrap around the outside of the cog. after 90 degrees of rotation, the chamfer
the cog has would let the line slip off.
 A simple catch for the line could prevent the weight from rolling out again. But that
can weight (wait, pun intended) for another day.
 
                                                                                            Jim

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 04:01:40 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 02:57:01 PM »
the bessler wheel is way to advance for normal brain like me to understand  ??? :o

  helloha,
 I started out with basic designs and gradually understood some of the idea's I have today.
I may finally be able to do some building. Kind of wish I had a little bit bigger place to live in.
 of course, my landlord may be able to help me.
 
                                                                           Jim
                                                                                           

Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 04:33:46 PM »
  helloha,
 Think this is something you could do ?
It's also posted in the 7x's thread. It came about by discussing a different idea.
 The ramps and lifting belt are next to the wheel.
 
                                                                                 Jim
 
did a quick illustration. As long as the 2 gears driving the lift mechanics are 92% the diameter of the one on the outer wheel, the lift will be to the right height.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:59:48 PM by johnny874 »

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 04:33:46 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 08:43:01 PM »
  helloha,
 a simple way to try 4 weights.
                                Jim
                                 
adding, the chamfered cog would also be stationary. The disc that would have 4 weights tethered
to it would rotate as the pull of the weights allow it to.

Offline helloha

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2012, 01:47:15 AM »
a redesign of a previous model

http://youtu.be/UOLPuvsXe9I



thks to norman and jim for the links, its very informative.

to jim,
the cog and gear idea seem extremely promising, but its beyond my ability, but still hoped u will continue to perfect the design.  ;)

Offline norman6538

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2012, 01:12:28 PM »
In this video.....

a redesign of a previous model

http://youtu.be/UOLPuvsXe9I

If you count the balls on the left which is what needs to be heavier and on
the right the left seems to be short some balls so the mass is not greater
on the left than on the right is what I see the problem is.

Norman

Offline helloha

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Re: CG Showcase of Overbalanced Wheel
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2012, 02:39:59 PM »
a wheel model using 2 full curve
http://youtu.be/y2EhDPqiEi0




In this video.....

a redesign of a previous model

http://youtu.be/UOLPuvsXe9I

If you count the balls on the left which is what needs to be heavier and on
the right the left seems to be short some balls so the mass is not greater
on the left than on the right is what I see the problem is.

Norman

yap, that design does give mi problem, so revert back to traditional design.

 

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