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Author Topic: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY  (Read 11717813 times)

Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12570 on: March 04, 2016, 10:24:45 PM »
The following two scope shots show the resulting peak when the PWM is set to 5 kHz.
Coil pulse voltage is 2 V.
Duty Cycle is approx. 10 microseconds.
Average current draw into the coil is only about 6 mA.
Peak at around 1.28 MHz or so.

Verpies, the second scope shot is with a stack of three creramic cube magnets attached
to the end of the yoke core. The frequency of the peak does not change very much, but the
peak frequency is changing a bit from test to test anyway, so the small change in frequency
seen between scope shots might not be related to the magnets being attached. You can see
that the amplitude of the peak increased a bit with the ceramic magnets attached however.
I would need to repeat this test a few more times to see if the small drop in frequency with
the magnets attached is related to the magnet being attached or just normal frequency drift of the peak.

Edit: Verpies, I repeated the ceramic magnet test several more times and the frequency of the peak
does not change noticeably at all. However, the amplitude of the peak increases by about one full vertical division
(~50mV) with the ceramic magnets attached. Not sure what that might mean at this point, but that is what happens. :)
Also, keep in mind that the average current draw through the coil for this particular test was only about 6 mA.

I also tested again by grabbing the winding on the yoke tightly in my hand, and the frequency of the
peak again did not change noticeably.

itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12571 on: March 04, 2016, 10:50:15 PM »

Hi Void,

i will try to replicate that, i have severall yoke halfs here.
So you use a yoke half (just the half?), with a coil (how many turns?) wrapped around it and use your PWM to drive that coil.
What about the pickup probe, its attached to a piece of alu foil wrapped (also like the coil?) around the yoke half (same half?   Is it over the coil or underneath it?)

Thanks, Itsu

itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12572 on: March 04, 2016, 10:54:27 PM »
I did some tests with 2x 12V/21W bulbs in series on the 24V PS as a load and i think that D1 an T1000 are correct, i get the same cycling, so
its the difference between the 24V battery voltage and the 24V PS voltage which battle it out.
See first part of the below video.

I think we can put this one to rest as it is as Void says not too much of a concern.


The 14Mhz signal was traced to the both MOSFETs, so probably, as was mentioned by verpies, its the MOSFETs ringing or a LC parasitic.
I notice that both MOSFETs show a different frequency peak (14.08MHz versus 13.75MHz), so i guess it could be the ringing from the primaries LC frequency
which could sligthly differ from each other.

Waving with a stack of 4 ceramic magnets has no influence on these peaks (or not noticeable) but i do see and hear a sudden change when approaching the yoke
It starts to squeel and we see severall peaks coming up all over the spectrum, which is probably what i call the chaotic mode and causes the oscilloscope to
show the many fuzzy signals it does.

 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs2r5VI8FH4&feature=youtu.be   

Itsu

verpies

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12573 on: March 04, 2016, 11:04:14 PM »
Verpies, I repeated the ceramic magnet test several more times and the frequency of the peak
does not change noticeably at all. However, the amplitude of the peak increases by about one full vertical division
(~50mV) with the ceramic magnets attached.
That is not bad news because the expected frequency shift for iron would be approximately 1%, and I expect a similar shift for ferrites, too. 

A FFT of the signal at this resolution would not be able to show this shift.
So a steady peak is actually good news.  A slight increase in amplitude is not bad either.

However, before we jump to conclusions, lets try whether a different winding will affect this peak.
Also please try a 47pF cap from gates to sources and/or from drains to sources of our PWM driver to see if that changes the frequency of that peak by altering the LC parasitics.


P.S.
Closed magnetic paths are always better than open ones.  That goes for the yoke's core and for permanent magnets.

AlienGrey

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12574 on: March 04, 2016, 11:10:54 PM »
I did some tests with 2x 12V/21W bulbs in series on the 24V PS as a load and i think that D1 an T1000 are correct, i get the same cycling, so
its the difference between the 24V battery voltage and the 24V PS voltage which battle it out.
See first part of the below video.

I think we can put this one to rest as it is as Void says not too much of a concern.


The 14Mhz signal was traced to the both MOSFETs, so probably, as was mentioned by verpies, its the MOSFETs ringing or a LC parasitic.
I notice that both MOSFETs show a different frequency peak (14.08MHz versus 13.75MHz), so i guess it could be the ringing from the primaries LC frequency
which could sligthly differ from each other.

Waving with a stack of 4 ceramic magnets has no influence on these peaks (or not noticeable) but i do see and hear a sudden change when approaching the yoke
It starts to squeel and we see severall peaks coming up all over the spectrum, which is probably what i call the chaotic mode and causes the oscilloscope to
show the many fuzzy signals it does.

 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs2r5VI8FH4&feature=youtu.be   

Itsu

Sounds like this ones from the dark side have grabbed this video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12575 on: March 04, 2016, 11:29:39 PM »
Ok, just conducted a new set of tests with the ferrite yoke core-half removed,
so, with just an air core coil to see if the reults I am seeing have anything to do with
the ferrite core or not. :)

In the first screen shot it is an air core coil with just a strip of aluminum foil run through
the center of the coil for the scope probe to connect to.

In the second screen shot it is an air core coil with just a strip of copper foil run through
the center of the coil for the scope probe to connect to.

These spectrum analyzer traces are made with the PWM set at about 5 kHz and driving the coil with about 2 V
are about the same with the air core coil, with no ferrite yoke core at all. :) It appears whatever I
am seeing on my spectrum analyzer is not due to the ferrite core at all. Still not sure what is causing it
at this point however. That ~1 MHz peak only appears at certain frequency settings of my PWM driver cct, such as
5, 10, 15, and 20 kHz, and there has to be a certain minimum current flowing through the coil. It would seem
that what I am seeing here may well just be some artifact of my test setup however. Maybe the current limiting
on my bench power supply starts oscillating at around 1 MHz when the PWM is running at those frequencies I mentioned.
At this point, I am suspecting my bench power supply as a possible cause. I will have to try testing with a 1.5 V
battery as the coil pulse voltage and see if the peak around 1 MHz disappears. I have a feeling this peak I was
seeing might be some weirdness with my bench power supply's current limiting circuitry however...

Itsu, it was just about 10 turns or so of insulated copper wire wrapped around the yoke core half, with a strip of aluminum
foil between the yoke core half and the winding, used to connect the scope probe tip to, for picking up the resulting
frequency spectrum.

Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12576 on: March 05, 2016, 12:19:29 AM »
Ok, tested by using a 1.5 V battery as the voltage source for pulsing the coil, and I still
get that peak around 1 MHz, but only when the PWM driver is set to frequencies on
multiples of about 5 kHz. :)  That big peak is completely gone when running the PWM driver at
frequencies in between those frequencies. The most likely thing remaining I can think of as being
a cause of this is that it is switching noise coming from the PWM driver circuitry, but for some strange
reason this only occurs when the PWM driver is set to the specific frequencies I mentioned.

I have a couple of UF4007 diodes in reverse from the coil V+ to the drain to limit the switching spike
from the coil, and when I disconnected them the frequency of the peak shifted down a bit in frequency, 
but the peak is still there. I guess what I have been seeing is some sort of weird switching noise from
the PWM circuitry or driver FET, but it is very odd that this peak only appears at certain driving frequencies
of the PWM. The fact that it shifted down in frequency a bit when I disconnected the UF4007 diodes seems
to indicate that it is some kind of switching noise related to the PWM circuitry.  I'll just put it down to some
weird PWM switching noise for now...

verpies

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12577 on: March 05, 2016, 02:25:36 AM »
I did some tests with 2x 12V/21W bulbs in series on the 24V PS as a load and i think that D1 an T1000 are correct, i get the same cycling, so its the difference between the 24V battery voltage and the 24V PS voltage which battle it out.
Minus the forward voltage drops of the PS diodes.

The 14Mhz signal was traced to the both MOSFETs, so probably, as was mentioned by Verpies, its the MOSFETs ringing
Yes, but I doubt the MOSFETs are ringing with the inductance of the primary winding, because this inductance is simply too large to yield such high frequency. 
Pls use the formula C = 1/(39.478 * f2 * L) to calculate how low of a capacitance you'd need to have, in order to get a 14MHz LC resonance frequency (f) with your primary inductance (L).

Also, a time-domain scopeshot of the drain waveform would be useful to identify the ringing stage.

or a LC parasitic.
Pls try to connect a parallel 47pF cap to the gate and/or drain of the MOSFET in order to locate where that LC parasitic is exactly.  Look for downward frequency shift.

I notice that both MOSFETs show a different frequency peak (14.08MHz versus 13.75MHz), so i guess it could be the ringing from the primaries LC frequency, which could slightly differ from each other.
It could be related to the placement of the air gap under the windings or the capacitance of the winding but doubtfully related to the inductance of the primary winding which is simply too large to resonate at this frequency with realistic capacitances.

Waving with a stack of 4 ceramic magnets has no influence on these peaks (or not noticeable) but i do see and hear a sudden change when approaching the yoke, it starts to squeal and we see several peaks coming up all over the spectrum,
First of all, these additional peaks cannot be related to the yoke just changing its inductance, because such change would only cause a frequency shift of the existing peak.

New peaks cannot appear due to a change of inductance, but they can appear due to any nonlinearities introduced, such as ferrimagnetic saturation* ...and other effects.

which is probably what I call the chaotic mode...
It is not so chaotic:

First of all, the peaks at 18.833MHz, 28.250MHz, 37.6666MHz, 47.08333MHz are all consecutive harmonics of the 9.416MHz peak.
That leaves only the small peak at 35.25MHz as the odd one.

The 14MHz is also unrelated to any other peaks, but notice, that this 14MHz peak does not belong to the group of peaks that was caused by the permanent magnets.


* It is unlikely, that these relatively small and weak ceramic magnets could saturate such a large yoke core.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 10:20:47 AM by verpies »

Jeg

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12578 on: March 05, 2016, 09:59:36 AM »

For a brief moment when the internal caps in the power supply are charged and all the internal voltage thresholds are met, the power supply likely does provide the driving power to your system. 

 When the power supply activates, it has the full regulated 24 volts and since this 24 volts exceeds the 22.5 volts of the battery, it takes over. 

Exactly! Just to add on your explanation that the diode acts as a switch. If for example a diode is connected at the output of the battery, it conducts when its cathode is at lower potential level than its anode. If for some reason cathode is at higher potential like when the psu outputting higher voltage for a brief moment, then diode stops conducting, and for that moment psu is the main and only dc supply provider.

"Itsu said:..makes no sense to me as the battery is always connected to the system, so why would it "stop powering the system" in the first place?"

Does it have any sense now? ;)

verpies

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12579 on: March 05, 2016, 10:15:56 AM »
Ok, tested by using a 1.5 V battery as the voltage source for pulsing the coil, and I still
get that peak around 1 MHz, but only when the PWM driver is set to frequencies on
multiples of about 5 kHz. :)  That big peak is completely gone when running the PWM driver at
frequencies in between those frequencies. The most likely thing remaining I can think of as being
a cause of this is that it is switching noise coming from the PWM driver circuitry, but for some strange
reason this only occurs when the PWM driver is set to the specific frequencies I mentioned.
That is strange considering the 200x ratio between 5kHz and 1MHz.
I'd look into the scope's sampling frequency relationship.

I have a couple of UF4007 diodes in reverse from the coil V+ to the drain to limit the switching spike
from the coil, and when I disconnected them the frequency of the peak shifted down a bit in frequency, 
but the peak is still there.
That is strange, too.

The fact that it shifted down in frequency a bit when I disconnected the UF4007 diodes seems
to indicate that it is some kind of switching noise related to the PWM circuitry. 
These diodes have a reverse capacitance. Eliminating parallel capacitance would shift up the frequency...unless it was series capacitance.  But where?
What happens when you put a 100pF cap in place of these diodes?

itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12580 on: March 05, 2016, 11:48:22 AM »
Minus the forward voltage drops of the PS diodes.
Yes, but I doubt the MOSFETs are ringing with the inductance of the primary winding, because this inductance is simply too large to yield such high frequency. 
Pls use the formula C = 1/(39.478 * f2 * L) to calculate how low of a capacitance you'd need to have, in order to get a 14MHz LC resonance frequency (f) with your primary inductance (L).

Also, a time-domain scopeshot of the drain waveform would be useful to identify the ringing stage.
Pls try to connect a parallel 47pF cap to the gate and/or drain of the MOSFET in order to locate where that LC parasitic is exactly.  Look for downward frequency shift.
It could be related to the placement of the air gap under the windings or the capacitance of the winding but doubtfully related to the inductance of the primary winding which is simply too large to resonate at this frequency with realistic capacitances.
First of all, these additional peaks cannot be related to the yoke just changing its inductance, because such change would only cause a frequency shift of the existing peak.

New peaks cannot appear due to a change of inductance, but they can appear due to any nonlinearities introduced, such as ferrimagnetic saturation* ...and other effects.
It is not so chaotic:

First of all, the peaks at 18.833MHz, 28.250MHz, 37.6666MHz, 47.08333MHz are all consecutive harmonics of the 9.416MHz peak.
That leaves only the small peak at 35.25MHz as the odd one.

The 14MHz is also unrelated to any other peaks, but notice, that this 14MHz peak does not belong to the group of peaks that was caused by the permanent magnets.


* It is unlikely, that these relatively small and weak ceramic magnets could saturate such a large yoke core.


I measure the both primaries (only the C to B and the F to D part in your loss-less clamp diagram) to be resp. 62.5uH and 64,2uH.
For 14Mhz that comes to about 2pF on your above formula, so that can come from anywhere.


I will try to capture a scopeshot of the drain and some further tests tonight.

Itsu

itsu

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12581 on: March 05, 2016, 11:49:12 AM »
Exactly! Just to add on your explanation that the diode acts as a switch. If for example a diode is connected at the output of the battery, it conducts when its cathode is at lower potential level than its anode. If for some reason cathode is at higher potential like when the psu outputting higher voltage for a brief moment, then diode stops conducting, and for that moment psu is the main and only dc supply provider.

"Itsu said:..makes no sense to me as the battery is always connected to the system, so why would it "stop powering the system" in the first place?"

Does it have any sense now? ;)

Hi Jeg,  guys,


yes it does make sense now,   thanks.

Itsu

Void

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12582 on: March 05, 2016, 01:56:07 PM »
That is strange considering the 200x ratio between 5kHz and 1MHz.
I'd look into the scope's sampling frequency relationship.
That is strange, too.
These diodes have a reverse capacitance. Eliminating parallel capacitance would shift up the frequency...unless it was series capacitance.  But where?
What happens when you put a 100pF cap in place of these diodes?

Hi Verpies. I tried putting an air variable capacitor which has a range of about 18 pF to 480 pF
in place of the diodes, and varied the capacitor through its range, and the frequency of the
peak did not shift at all. The frequency of the peak does shift up when the diodes are put in place however.

There is a little bit of ringing on the drain, but that same ringing is there for all frequency settings
of the PWM through its frequency range, but the spectrum analyzer feature on my scope only shows
that prominent peak at certain frequency settings of the PWM as mentioned previously. It is possible that what
I am seeing is just an artifact of my scope however, as it is an economy brand scope. :) Since what I am seeing is
not related to the ferrite core, I think it is not worth spending more time on it. Thanks for your feedback on this.

If there is in some cases some release of EM energy from a ferrite core at certain PWM drive frequencies, then it may
well be at much higher frequencies such as the high MHz range or even higher. Akula showed a video where he was showing a
peak in the very high MHz range, as best as I could gather from his video anyway, and in another video he mentioned
a frequency in the GHz range. Such frequencies are way beyond the capabilities of the FFT feature on my scope, and
since I don't really trust the FFT feature on my economy scope too much anyway, I will try to use other approaches now. :)

T-1000

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12583 on: March 05, 2016, 02:00:42 PM »
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs2r5VI8FH4&feature=youtu.be   
The voltage fluctuations now are raising even more questions:
1) Is your power supply limited to work in 190-240V input voltage range? Seems like that which have a problem. The PS has to work from 100 to 300V input voltage range.
2) As soon as your power supply is switching on, it starts to draw current. That results lowering inductance and the resonant frequency goes up. Is it going outside of the pre-set resonant condition frequency range?
3) Can you attach PLL with current sense on 3T near yoke instead of TL494? This will keep resonant frequency locked in.

Cheers!

Dog-One

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #12584 on: March 05, 2016, 02:33:55 PM »
1) Is your power supply limited to work in 190-240V input voltage range? Seems like that which have a problem. The PS has to work from 100 to 300V input voltage range.

If your power supply is marked "Universal Input", you should be okay.  Attached is the spec sheet for my power supply.  Do notice the inrush current.  It is quite high and can certainly knock the system out of resonance if not limited in some way.


2) As soon as your power supply is switching on, it starts to draw current. That results lowering inductance and the resonant frequency goes up. Is it going outside of resonant condition?
3) Can you attach PLL with current sense on 3T near yoke instead of TL494? This will keep resonant frequency locked in.

This looks like a problem we still need to adequately solve.  I used a PLL connected to the "sync" input (pin 3) of an SG3525 PWM chip.  This does work.  It will give you a resonance self-adjusting push-pull oscillator that will track with the output conditions and still allows you manual adjustment of duty cycle.  The problem I have with this approach is the duty cycle remains fixed during resonance lock.  What this means is the frequency is adjusted AND the pulse width is adjusted.  I'm not 100% sure this is what we want.  I think the pulse width should remain constant or there should be another feedback mechanism to adjust this on-the-fly, like for instance locking it to a specific waveform.  From what I have observed, the pulse width of the PWM may be even more important than the frequency of those pulses.  I'm confident of this being true when driving the Tesla coil and suspect it also to be true when driving the induction coil and grenade.

What it looks like to me is we need a circuit that can manipulate not only frequency, but pulse width and phasing between push and pull sides.  Something that controls on-time/off-time for each side as well as controlling dead-time between the two pulses.  How these need to be controlled to maintain proper resonance is still a mystery to me, but appears critical to proper operation.  I'm currently working on a circuit design that generates a manually adjustable pulse width, then toggles this pulse through a flip-flop sending it to the high side, then low side in a cyclic fashion.  Still working on the dead-time portion to make it adjustable as well.

Controlling this device has three stages that each need their own logic:  Startup, run & variable load compensation.
Maybe this can be simplified at some point.