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Author Topic: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY  (Read 6454030 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17025 on: April 05, 2017, 12:07:23 AM »
I'm starting to get the feeling something is being "lost in translation" here. Pin numbering error? Some mistake in translating the Stalker schematic to the actual circuit on the board? Solder bridges where they shouldn't be? Or none, where they should be? Cold (aka dry) solder joint(s)? Fake or damaged TL494 chip? Or many more possible "slips twixt cup and lip".

It "might" be possible to diagnose possible errors on your circuit board if we had good, high resolution photos of both sides of the board. Scopeshots would help immensely too.

If you are getting the correct signals on pins 9 and 10 of the 494 and the driver chips and snubbers and gate pulldown resistors are correctly wired, the mosfets should be behaving properly, unless the driver chips just aren't providing the necessary gate current pulses for some reason. (But as I mentioned earlier the P260n mosfets need a greater Gate charge than the Stalker's specified IRF3205 mosfets.)

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17025 on: April 05, 2017, 12:07:23 AM »

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17026 on: April 05, 2017, 02:22:27 AM »
@mgpwr: OK< ty.

The high-frequency output from secondary, using LF input from primary, is probably due to resonant ringing, and to get this to work properly the secondary must be loosely coupled magnetically to the primary. This is how Tesla achieved HF outputs from his LF spark-gap-interrupted primary supply. The idea is this: the primary drive circuit produces a fast risetime and falltime short pulse at a relatively low frequency. This causes the secondary to ring at its higher frequency of 1/4-wave resonance and allows VRSWR (voltage rise due to standing wave resonance). Like striking a bell with a hammer. A single strike produces a lot of vibration cycles in the bell. If the primary is too closely coupled to the secondary this causes the secondary to induce back into the primary and damps the resonant rise. If the secondary and its associated capacitance are carefully built for "high Q" then there is little or no decay of the secondary ringing, until the next LF pulse comes along from the primary.
But this is different from the way modern solid-state TCs work, where the primary is pulsed at the same HF rate as the resonant frequency of the secondary. So you get a primary pulse and a secondary sinus cycle, just one, and then another primary pulse comes along. In this setup the primary can be much more closely coupled to the secondary since you aren't worried about mutual damping.
I think the circuits you are working with are trying to do the first, older Tesla method of pulsing primary at a relatively low frequency with short pulses of fast rise and fall times, and allowing the secondary to ring freely at its higher quarterwave resonant frequency. So you might try actually reducing the electromagnetic coupling constant "k" between primary and secondary. Also think about "Q" of the secondary and try to maximize that with careful construction and low-loss components after the secondary output.

Just my "two cents worth" based on my experience with TCs and SSTCs and drive circuitry. Good luck!
TK this seems very related to the Ringdown of the primary and the corresponding Ringup discussed on Richie Burnets site. I've seen the same loosely coupled diagrams on old spark gap telegraphy books. While I have not spent much time on it, I can't figure out how a decaying primary is able to inject ever increasing juice, till its gone, into a secondary that's already got plenty of current going through it. I thought Its a bit like  a stationary person on the ground pushing a swing higher and higher with a small push ,you have to keep shifting your stationary pisition to the point where the swing is about to swing back down and give the little push there.As you said, modern circuits are closely coupled and you don't see this behaviour, the damping of the primary causes a damping in the secondary, not a growth in amplitude.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17027 on: April 05, 2017, 10:21:23 PM »
  I disconnected the two MUR1560 diodes, to see if they were what was hanging up the signal at the fets, but the fets still get very hot, and the signal is still as you see it below. The scope probes are on the output pins 9 and 10, and ground.
  I still haven't found the snare, as to why the two channels are on at the same time. Raising the frequency, tops out at about 12kHz.
Good thing that I like turning knobs, and tuning away. Once I find the error, things are going to be sweet. 
  Is that plasma on the bulb on the left...?

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17027 on: April 05, 2017, 10:21:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17028 on: April 06, 2017, 12:37:30 AM »
Er... OK.... But...

Can you please show a photo of _just the scope screen_ and make sure your camera is actually focussed on the scope itself?  The combination of the small part of the photo showing the scope, the scope traces themselves being blurry and the camera not being focussed on the scope makes your photos uninterpretable.

An experienced scoposcopist can tell a lot about circuit behaviour from a properly made scopeshot. But what you've shown in those photos can only be interpreted like this : He has a scope, and it is showing something.

It will also be necessary to tell us the channel voltage/division settings and the horizontal timebase setting, when you get around to making some more scopeshots.

We are trying to help you, but you've got to help us help you!   :'(

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17029 on: April 06, 2017, 01:04:48 AM »
Er... OK.... But...

Can you please show a photo of _just the scope screen_ and make sure your camera is actually focussed on the scope itself?  The combination of the small part of the photo showing the scope, the scope traces themselves being blurry and the camera not being focussed on the scope makes your photos uninterpretable.

An experienced scoposcopist can tell a lot about circuit behaviour from a properly made scopeshot. But what you've shown in those photos can only be interpreted like this : He has a scope, and it is showing something.

It will also be necessary to tell us the channel voltage/division settings and the horizontal timebase setting, when you get around to making some more scopeshots.

We are trying to help you, but you've got to help us help you!   :'(
Hi and re this scope shot, looks a bit weird here, if you look at his 'pic' one trace appears to have propagation delay that is what you would expect if one driver chip is an inverted driver and the other not or the drive to both is s/c ! can you please show us the outputs from the TL494 pins 9 and ten 'simultaneously' and the output pins of the drivers in and out. Many thanks

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17029 on: April 06, 2017, 01:04:48 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17030 on: April 06, 2017, 01:35:20 AM »
Sorry, no, that scopeshot is uninterpretable, except as proof that he actually does have an oscilloscope.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17031 on: April 06, 2017, 01:50:21 AM »
We would like to see something like this. I have deliberately de-focussed my scope to simulate Nick's but the photo itself is properly focussed. The traces are clear enough to be able to tell what is going on.

Note that I have placed the channel baselines on graticule lines and I have indicated where CH1 and CH2 baselines are with tape flags. Traces obtained with 2v/div and 500 us/div. 

Note that you can read: Pulse shape, pulse peak voltage, pulse frequency for each channel, and phase (delay) difference, and dead time for the two channels together.

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17031 on: April 06, 2017, 01:50:21 AM »
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Offline NickZ

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17032 on: April 06, 2017, 02:58:56 AM »
   OK, I can do that, no problem there, but my image is not steady, and will not look like yours. However, even on a blurry image I can tell that the problem is that both FETs are On at the same time. No dead time control function.
   I don' think that there are any shorts, cold solder joints, etz... But, there maybe something wrong in the schematic  that I'm following itself. As Verpies has mentioned previously.
   I would like to try this method (below) for the duty cycle part of the circuit next. Pinoy's design, going after the topruslan style. TL494 pin 3 is left open. As I have not tried that, yet. Who knows it might work for me.
   What do you think?

Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17033 on: April 07, 2017, 01:16:27 AM »
   OK, I can do that, no problem there, but my image is not steady, and will not look like yours. However, even on a blurry image I can tell that the problem is that both FETs are On at the same time. No dead time control function.
   I don' think that there are any shorts, cold solder joints, etz... But, there maybe something wrong in the schematic  that I'm following itself. As Verpies has mentioned previously.
   I would like to try this method (below) for the duty cycle part of the circuit next. Pinoy's design, going after the topruslan style. TL494 pin 3 is left open. As I have not tried that, yet. Who knows it might work for me.
   What do you think?
the internal structure of the 494. Note the two outputs are fed by a 'D' type device its a flip flop both outputs can't be on at the same time unless it's 'blown'.

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17033 on: April 07, 2017, 01:16:27 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17034 on: April 07, 2017, 02:18:14 AM »
No, the two outputs are fed by NOR gates preceded by AND gates and both outputs can be ON at the same time when the ctrl input feeding the AND gates, is at zero logic level.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17035 on: April 07, 2017, 05:28:32 AM »
  Here are a couple of pics as requested by TK.
  Now the TL494 does not want to produce an output. It's getting 12v, to pin 1, and16, and between them and pin 8.
   And,  I'm now getting 5v between pin 13 and pin 7. Which previously I could not read. But, there is NO output now at pin 9 and 10.
  I've ordered new driver chips, and sockets for both the 8 pin chips, as well as the TLs 16 pin sockets.  And also some more new IRFP260N mosfets, in case they are to blame for the current condition, although they test out to be ok. As now the TL board is dead.
   I'll wait until I have those parts before trying to rebuild my current driver, or to build up a new driver, or both.

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17035 on: April 07, 2017, 05:28:32 AM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17036 on: April 07, 2017, 09:33:12 AM »
Yuk - that's nasty looking Nick! Start afresh with the IC sockets and use much thinner tinned copper interconnecting / hookup wire for all low current signal connections. Such as: -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PCB-Fine-Link-Hookup-Jump-Repair-Wire-Red-Black-6cm-Tinned-Wire-x-40-/252827267632?hash=item3addadf230:g:PNAAAOSwXYtY1Cgx

You can cut down the supplied lengths as required.


Offline verpies

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17037 on: April 07, 2017, 10:43:13 AM »
Are these interconnects made with an enameled magnet wire or a bare wire?

Do you have a solderless breadboard ?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:18:37 PM by verpies »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17038 on: April 07, 2017, 11:48:46 AM »
Nick, thanks for posting those photos. Layout and routing are perhaps the hardest parts of circuit construction, and your skills will improve with experience. Best to start over I think, rather than trying to fix this board.

It's hard, I know, to put your work up for criticism like this. I know it took you a lot of time, thought, and effort to put that board together. But with the advice we can give you, your second build will go much more easily and will have much less chance of failing or confusing you.

Sockets for the TL494 and for the driver chips (in the DIP version not surface mount!) are mandatory. Also, use resistors that are of the power rating appropriate for the job. They will be smaller in size and easier to position and work with. Think of the circuit as happening "between the rails", that is, between the positive and ground supply. Play with the layout on paper or on a solderless breadboard until you find a layout that involves the fewest "crossovers" and the shortest interconnecting wires. No need to use or powerup the breadboard version, just use it for layout and routing ideas. It may be helpful to start at the mosfet end and work backwards to the 494 and the power supplies when doing the layout and routing. When you finally start soldering stuff together, use a little extra flux from your flux pen, and proper heat, to make the solder flow smoothly rather than blobbing up. Practice makes perfect, and anyone who has tried to build circuitry has "been there". So please don't get discouraged or feel embarrassed. You will probably get some rather harsh comments but just shrug them off.


Offline AlienGrey

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Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY
« Reply #17039 on: April 07, 2017, 01:18:51 PM »
Hmm! perhaps it's better to use one of the PCB's designs that are available our Russian friends have published a lot why not utilize one of them, and do yourself a favor if your handy work isn't quite so good.

Ask Enjoykin or someone if they have a layout you can use borrow ect.

 

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