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### Author Topic: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower  (Read 248265 times)

#### DreamThinkBuild

• Hero Member
• Posts: 574
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #315 on: September 30, 2012, 05:17:25 PM »
Hi All,

I noticed they updated the page for JB PowerSystem.

http://jbpowersystems.weebly.com/index.html

Quote
EPS Electric Engineering Testing Company did the testing for the event:

1. We have a 3 phase generator that has 42 coils in it. (the more coils reduced the number of rotations it needs to produce energy)
2. We have 18/1 gearbox. (this is called a torque multiplier)
3. We have a toque arm that is 10 feet long.
4. The Force is produced by man pushing.
5. We have a fish scale to pull the torque bar to see what force the man would have to push. (10-25)lbs
6. The Man will turn the torque 5 complete rotations.
7. Each rotation turns the gearbox, which turns the generator 5 x 18=90 rpm
8. Each rotation the man travels 10 ft x 3.14 (360 degrees) = 31.4 feet x 5 rpm = 157 ft travel per minute x 25 lbs(per ft) =3925 ft lbs minute  x .74 (watt sec)=2904 watts per minute
9. The engineer meter read 30 volts x 20 amps = 600 watts per phase x 1.732 = 1020 watts per minute.
10. 1020 watts is true power watts out of 1800 watts produced,  also 1020 watts per second  x 0.74(watt Second) = 754.8 ft-lb's sec x 60 sec(minute) =4 5,288 ft lbs per minute x 0.74 = 33513 ft-lb's per minute and the energy used to produce this is 3925 ft-lb's minute. Take 33513 ft-lb's minute divided by 3925 = 8.5 power. It  produce than used

*The engineering company stated that this does not break any laws of physics and this is the most efficient way to produce electricty without pollution.

Wonder if attaching scooter motors to the end of the lever arms and let it ride around and around a track turning the generator in the middle would work. Much like draft animal power but without the animal.

http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/technology/animal_power.htm

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13968
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #316 on: October 01, 2012, 12:23:22 AM »
Did you notice that "watts per minute" is something that a real engineer would never say or use in an energy calculation.... since it makes no sense?

The WATT is a RATE of energy use or dissipation, a rate of one Joule per second.  Consider a 100 Watt light bulb.
Does it make sense to you to say "100 Joules per second per minute" when talking about the power usage of that bulb?

The only way that a statement like this could make sense is if it is talking about a Rate of Change of the power output. If I go smoothly from one hundred watts to one thousand watts over a period of ten minutes, that would be an average "rate of change" of one hundred Watts per minute.

When I see power and energy units misused as above, and the post is talking about "engineering testing"..... I pretty much know what I am being presented with.

Are we talking about this EPS? It might be interesting to email them to see if there is any confirmation of the claims in the above post.
http://www.eps-international.com/
Or this one:
http://www.epsinc.com/

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13968
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #317 on: October 01, 2012, 05:27:23 AM »
Gaah. Let's see if we can decode this.

There are some math errors and the major messup of "watts per minute", but the numbers as shown still "appear" to present an OU ratio of about 6:1, if I've done it right myself.

Quote
EPS Electric Engineering Testing Company did the testing for the event:

1. We have a 3 phase generator that has 42 coils in it. (the more coils reduced the number of rotations it needs to produce energy)
2. We have 18/1 gearbox. (this is called a torque multiplier)
3. We have a toque arm that is 10 feet long.
A toque is a kind of hat. Maybe you mean "torque" in which case the correct term is moment arm. Anyway, this then is the RADIUS of your circle, right? Ten feet. So your circle is twenty feet across.
Quote
4. The Force is produced by man pushing.
5. We have a fish scale to pull the torque bar to see what force the man would have to push. (10-25)lbs
6. The Man will turn the torque 5 complete rotations.
7. Each rotation turns the gearbox, which turns the generator 5 x 18=90 rpm
So, here we are assuming that the 5 complete revolutions are done in one minute. Otherwise, where did the RPM (revolutions PER MINUTE) come from? Really, all we know is that each rotation turns the gearbox 18 rotations, and five input rotations turn the gearbox 90 rotations. If this is done in a minute, say so before this point.
Quote
8. Each rotation the man travels 10 ft x 3.14 (360 degrees) = 31.4 feet x 5 rpm = 157 ft travel per minute x 25 lbs(per ft) =3925 ft lbs minute  x .74 (watt sec)=2904 watts per minute
ORLY? Come, let us calculate together. The formula for the circumference of a circle is C=2*pi*r, where r is the radius. Isn't our radius TEN FEET? So the circle is 62.8 feet around, not 31.4 feet.  Next, that means that 314 feet were traveled in a minute. The work performed, then, is 314 feet x 25 pounds force = 7850 foot-pounds, in one minute. That works out to 7850/60 = about 131 footpounds/second, which is a little over 177 Watts.

The quote has 157 feet of travel per minute x 25 pounds = 3925 ftlbs minute??? 157 x 25 = 3925, but the true value is twice that, or 7850 footpounds minute.
http://www.aqua-calc.com/convert/power/foot-pound-per-second-to-watt

Quote
9. The engineer meter read 30 volts x 20 amps = 600 watts per phase x 1.732 = 1020 watts per minute.
NOT watts per minute, just watts. But what was the load, how was the meter wired in, where did the 1.732 factor come from? Now we are in the realm where information is lacking to complete my calculation. The load phase angle is needed.
Quote
10. 1020 watts is true power watts out of 1800 watts produced,  also 1020 watts per second  x 0.74(watt Second) = 754.8 ft-lb's sec x 60 sec(minute) =4 5,288 ft lbs per minute x 0.74 = 33513 ft-lb's per minute and the energy used to produce this is 3925 ft-lb's minute. Take 33513 ft-lb's minute divided by 3925 = 8.5 power. It  produce than used (sic)
Well, presuming your 1020 Watts (not per second) output figure is correct, 1020/177 = a bit under 6. (There's that 6:1 OU ratio again.... it's everywhere.) But seriously.... the math that is being done in the quotation is just bogus entirely.
1020 Watts x 0.74  = 755 footpounds/second x 60 seconds/minute =  45300 footpounds Per Minute.... times 0.74 again? Why?   Footpounds per minute x 0.74 =... Whaat? This kind of confusion is what happens when units are not understood or included in calculations.
Quote

*The engineering company stated that this does not break any laws of physics and this is the most efficient way to produce electricty without pollution.

May we see some proof of the output power measurements, and/or the signed official report from the engineering company that made that statement?

(srry, I had to edit some errors of my own...)

Bottom line: Using their numbers but calculating correctly, I hope, and eliminating the bogus "watts per minute" fail, I get a ratio of 5.77 output to 1 input, and this agrees using either Watts, or footpound minutes (duh.... the conversion factor is ~ 0.74.) So I'd like to see proof of the input and output numbers. A man dragging a fishscale along at a rate of 314 feet per minute around a circle doesn't seem like a very precise input measurement, and without knowing what the load is and how the output was measured... those nice round numbers of 30 volts and 20 amps (RMS, or peak?) .... the COP can't be trusted.

#### DreamThinkBuild

• Hero Member
• Posts: 574
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #318 on: October 01, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »
Hi TinselKoala,

After doing some more searching I cannot find any reference to EPS Electric Engineering Testing Company actually doing any tests for world records or in relationship to JB PowerSystems. The only reference that pops up is on JB's website.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13968
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #319 on: October 01, 2012, 06:50:27 PM »
Well, in all fairness a company hired to do testing might not publish or report results of the tests except to the client. It's up to JB to provide evidence that the testing and the company's conclusions went as he says they did.

But if he's using a company's name as part of a sales promotion, then they might be concerned if he is misrepresenting their findings in any way. So, it boils down to the usual thing: the person making the claim is in control of the information, and if that claimant doesn't want to provide proof of a statement, there isn't much I can do about it, that's for sure. All I can do is examine what _has_ been said for inconsistencies and errors, and try to interpret what those errors mean. In the present case, I am quite certain that no Electrical Power Systems engineer would make a statement including "Watts per second" unless that engineer was talking about a time rate of change of the output of a system, not its constant power output. To me, this reinforces my original opinion.

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #320 on: October 02, 2012, 02:02:00 AM »

Thank you for nominating me to be a team leader here.  However, I must decline as I will not sign any sort of NDA which will most likely end up limiting some of the work I am already doing on my own in several different areas.

An NDA on an open source research site does not make any sense to me at all.

Thank you,

Bill

#### kooler

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 471
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #321 on: October 02, 2012, 03:42:06 AM »
i dont think there is a nda of any kind

#### Dave45

• Guest
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #322 on: October 02, 2012, 03:51:07 AM »
I thought of joining I have a few dc motors but the gag agreement does not agree with me either, if I know something that will help others to break free you can bet your boots Im gonna tell everyone,
Open source
Help the poor

dave

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #323 on: October 02, 2012, 04:06:36 AM »
I share Koala's concerns.  Particularly, the NDA requirement is a big concern:
1.  Let's suppose I'm working on a motor-generator concept myself
2.  But I sign inventacom's NDA in order to be on the private "Team"
3.  Then I learn something that will help me with my own motor-gen developments...
4.  Can I freely discuss MY motor-gen ideas at that point, open source?  or am I bound by the NDA?

That's why I was dismayed as soon as I saw the NDA requirement....

5.  With the NDA, can anyone even tell us when the device works, or doesn't work? (for sure)

The departure from freedom of speech, "free" energy and open source is a valid concern IMO.

Robbie:

This was what i was talking about.  There are a bunch of other posts speaking of the NDA.  I will not do that.

Bill

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1733
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #324 on: October 02, 2012, 05:10:52 AM »
It simply is not that way guys . The agreement with inventacom was not to share HIS media pictures or diagrams so they would not be on the www or any google search or any youtube channel tied to him in anyway.. Thats all that is . He took the only measures he could to do that . What HIS ideas and property he can do as he likes and he chose to keep it off the Internet but share it the best way he knows how without HIS media public . Through a very well organized Team structure.

Bill i understand and respect your decisions. I along with 25 others will continue being taught by Darby as long as we can .

jouleseeker quote Quote from: JouleSeeker on September 28, 2012, 06:45:49 PM

I share Koala's concerns.  Particularly, the NDA requirement is a big concern:
1.  Let's suppose I'm working on a motor-generator concept myself
2.  But I sign inventacom's NDA in order to be on the private "Team"
3.  Then I learn something that will help me with my own motor-gen developments...
4.  Can I freely discuss MY motor-gen ideas at that point, open source?  or am I bound by the NDA?

That's why I was dismayed as soon as I saw the NDA requirement....

5.  With the NDA, can anyone even tell us when the device works, or doesn't work? (for sure)

The departure from freedom of speech, "free" energy and open source is a valid concern IMO.

It has NOTHING to do with what you do think or build . You do not know his ideas and you are not on his team so do what you do .If you look at all the Free Energy Motor gens you will notice that NONE OF THE INVENTORS that showed it public are anywhere to be found . GET IT? Build it ,share it public .you will disappear  from the face of the earth and your invention will just a youtube Video .
I think Darby is one of the Smartest people alive even though if you ask him he is just a simple ordinary person .

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #325 on: October 02, 2012, 04:52:52 PM »

Thank you for nominating me to be a team leader here.  However, I must decline as I will not sign any sort of NDA which will most likely end up limiting some of the work I am already doing on my own in several different areas.

An NDA on an open source research site does not make any sense to me at all.

Thank you,

Bill

I totally agree with Bill.

Quote
.If you look at all the Free Energy Motor gens you will notice that NONE OF THE INVENTORS that showed it public are anywhere to be found . GET IT? Build it ,share it public .you will disappear  from the face of the earth and your invention will just a youtube Video .

How about John Bedini?  Fernando Ramos?  Ucross?  Bobby Amarasingam?  They are still around, aren't they?
Ucross reportedly has a motor-generator for sale right now:

Quote
Ucross will sell the 3Kw model for \$7,000. He states that there is a hidden key that is only revealed with the purchase of a kit.  -- EF.com post by i_ron

Consider also please: Fernando Ramos of Peru wins bronze prize at a competition in Geneva for his invention:
Further progress and development:

Sterling Allan shot this video at Bobby Amarasingam's place in Somerset, Britain on September 5, 2011. These are a couple of earlier prototypes that presented learning information on which he expanded. He said that he measured prototype 10 (the second of the two in the video) as outputting four times as much energy as input, using gravity as the driving inertial force.

Note: I hope that Inventacom/Darby is indeed willing to share his knowledge with mankind and that this effort succeeds!
AT the same time, should we not give credit to those who have gone before in "Torque Amplification", such as

Fernando Ramos,  Ucross, and  Bobby Amarasingam?  They are still around.

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1733
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #326 on: October 02, 2012, 05:33:48 PM »
we all know Sterling Allen is an idiot and we all also know none if any of what you showed you can buy at your local Big blue nor can you fly with anti-gravity nor can you power your house with said inventions because of the facts I stated . Yes John Bedini is here . I build many of them but they will not run your house or heat and cool your house nor will he sell you one that will . Why ?Because he knows he won;t be around very long if he did . Same with J Hutchinson .I know him and have bought stuff from him and sold some stuff to him  but it won't run my house nor will he discuss his earlier discovery's with you . Why ? Because he knows he will not be around very long and he don't need the money either .. and well the Torque Amplification thing won't run more than a Minute before it shakes to pieces . Good idea but it will not run your house and all the replications have failed so yes good try but no ribbon here either .

Build it and show it running your house for a few weeks  and you will soon see what i am talking about.

So anyways Maybe some day some one will take the oil companies out(yea right) and give you freedom .Until then free energy exists for the few who put out the extra effort and money You want a free energy generator you can buy right now . i'll give you a link to buy it . With a lot of money an a small motor and a little work you got one to power a few homes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InZ9XtiKpXo

Is any oil company worried about this one ? No . Because 95% of the population don't have the money so they will never stop paying the light bill . I am one of them  .

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #327 on: October 02, 2012, 08:01:59 PM »
we all know Sterling Allen is an idiot
Not true.

You want a free energy generator you can buy right now . i'll give you a link to buy it . With a lot of money an a small motor and a little work you got one to power a few homes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InZ9XtiKpXo

Is any oil company worried about this one ? No . Because 95% of the population don't have the money so they will never stop paying the light bill . I am one of them  .

So I went to the site you recommended, and found this note there IN BOLD lettering:

ITS  NOT  PERPETUAL  MOTION  YOU  CAN NOT  TURN IT WITH SMALLER ELECTRIC MOTOR.
COZ THERE IS DRAG ON THE SHAFT UNDER LOAD.  ALWAYS WE HAVE TO PUT  11KW OF MECHANICAL ENERGY TO GET 10KW ELECTRICAL ENERGY...  So please dont ask us how many kw is needed to turn it... as we have a lot of questions like that every day...

These generators can be used in wind, water turbines, also with gas, or diesel engine."

So your statement that this is "a free energy generator" is again NOT TRUE.

• elite_member
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##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #328 on: October 02, 2012, 08:35:07 PM »
thanks for the info .

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: Free Electric Multi-use motor - Home gen-Car motor-Boat Motor-lawn mower
« Reply #329 on: October 02, 2012, 09:15:59 PM »
thanks for the info .

You're  welcome.

Stealth at EF also claims to having working mechanical ou devices, prototypes.  And he recently shared a sketch of one of these.  Quite interesting, and he still lives BTW.