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### Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 595291 times)

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1050 on: June 12, 2013, 03:57:26 PM »
The Video showed Board 120 with Input and Output connections.
The crossing of 0 ref line by Input CH2 (Current) was clear.  More research needed.....
Full DSO analysis showed COP = 9.17.
@Void,
The waveform and analysis showed similar behavior as yours.  Will try to show characteristics around this range...

@Lawrence, thanks for completely ignoring my comments and questions to you.
You will most likely completely ignore my following comments as well, but I thought I would give it a try one last time, just on the off chance that you do have some slight interest in trying to understand what is really going on under a low input voltage condition with your boards.

If you turn off the power supply such that the LED is off and not conducting current, and you still measure a very similar waveform across the output current sensing one ohm resistor with your scope, then you are obviously not measuring a 'current' at all. It is just noise voltage picked up by the scope probe at this connection point, and this will obviously greatly skew your measurements if your output current magnitude is proportional to or much less than the actual noise voltage magnitude, as is the case when the LED is just turned on and glowing dimly. As I have already demonstrated, your output current measurement is meaningless under this condition. To talk about input and output power and COP under such measurement conditions as if they are meaningful numbers makes no sense. If you disagree with anything I am saying, then please point out what you disagree with and explain specifically why you disagree, so we can discuss further. This of course assumes that you have some interest in trying to understand what is actually going on in this arrangement.

In my last experiment with board 119 above, noise made up a large percentage of the input current measurement which would likely throw off the input current measurement to at least some degree or other, making the input current measurement under this condition unreliable, and noise obviously completely covered up the output current waveform such that what was being measured as 'output current' was actually just mainly noise, and was not reflective of the actual output current at all.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1051 on: June 13, 2013, 01:33:43 AM »
@Lawrence, thanks for completely ignoring my comments and questions to you.
You will most likely completely ignore my following comments as well, but I thought I would give it a try one last time, just on the off chance that you do have some slight interest in trying to understand what is really going on under a low input voltage condition with your boards.

If you turn off the power supply such that the LED is off and not conducting current, and you still measure a very similar waveform across the output current sensing one ohm resistor with your scope, then you are obviously not measuring a 'current' at all. It is just noise voltage picked up by the scope probe at this connection point, and this will obviously greatly skew your measurements if your output current magnitude is proportional to or much less than the actual noise voltage magnitude, as is the case when the LED is just turned on and glowing dimly. As I have already demonstrated, your output current measurement is meaningless under this condition. To talk about input and output power and COP under such measurement conditions as if they are meaningful numbers makes no sense. If you disagree with anything I am saying, then please point out what you disagree with and explain specifically why you disagree, so we can discuss further. This of course assumes that you have some interest in trying to understand what is actually going on in this arrangement.

In my last experiment with board 119 above, noise made up a large percentage of the input current measurement which would likely throw off the input current measurement to at least some degree or other, making the input current measurement under this condition unreliable, and noise obviously completely covered up the output current waveform such that what was being measured as 'output current' was actually just mainly noise, and was not reflective of the actual output current at all.
@Void,
Your comments were good and valid.  The actual measured results were not useful in trying to prove overunity.  Once we are at the noise level, any reading may arise.

However, I am trying to see if the "noise" can be turned into useful energy to light up the LED.  TK's Video; Dr. Ting's wireless JT; Lasersaber's ringers etc. all pointed to that possibility.  In particular, Mr. T S Lau's recent timer and capacitor experiment at his home (with window facing a high power line a few hundred meters away) showed the possibility of a "forever lighted lamp".  His result for 22 days showed a continued lighting from a rechargeable AA Battery starting at 1.26V and still lighting at 0.61V.  With 3 hours rest, the battery Voltage climbed back to 1V approximately.

That experiment is being tuned with more capacitors and different timing.  The expectation is that the set up will last months.  We may add the secondary coil winding at some stage.  One possible explanation of the much longer life of the battery is due to "bringing-in" energy from the noise or electrosmog.  The crossing of the 0 ref line behavior indicated such possibility.

Another possible explanation is that at some "resonance condition", a still not clearly understood mechanism would "lead-out" or bring-in much more energy.  I occasionally find a sudden increase in brightness of the LED and a rise in CH1 Vrms with no battery attached.  That particular behavior is difficult to capture but I am sure that we shall capture and video it one day.  The thought at this point is that the slow draining of the capacitor may hit one or more of such condidtions.  If we can maintain such conditions or keep bring the circuit back to such conditions,....

Your displayed Input Waveform clearly indicated a "crossing 0 ref line" behavior for Input Current.  You can try to vary your DC Power Supply Voltage slowly and observe whether you can reproduce such "crossing 0 ref line" behavior every time.  I can do that on my Atten.  There were comments that the behavior was due to bad set up of the Atten or "the limitation of a cheap scope".  Your similar results lowered the possibility of bad set up.....

#### markdansie

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1471
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1052 on: June 13, 2013, 06:59:05 AM »
Here you go
Power generation using noise.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1053 on: June 13, 2013, 09:56:15 AM »
Effect of "noise" at around 0.38V by Mr. T S Lau.

The experiment was done at the home of Mr. Lau with his window facing a high power line within a few hundred feet.  Board 128 used a timer set to 2 minutes off and 10 seconds on.  Board 127 used no timer.  Both have a capacitor (2.3V 10F).

Board 127 is interesting in that the voltage drop was verry slow after the 0.38V mark.  At such level, the Atten DSO showed much crossing of the 0 ref line for Input CH2 (current).  That indicated both positive and negative power.  Negative Power means energy flowing back to source.....

That explained the much longer "hanging on" of the Battery and the Overunity results.

@Void,

Doing DSO Analysis at noise level may not be useless and meaningless after all.....

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1054 on: June 13, 2013, 01:55:44 PM »
@Lawrence: Thanks for the response. The experiments with the super caps as a power source are interesting, and appear to show some potential, but I personally wouldn't be too quick to try to draw any conclusions or to try to attribute what is going on to any particular factor such as noise or whatever at this point, without doing a lot more experimentation and analysis. I have not seen any indication that noise pickup has any effect on actual circuit performance in my own experiments with the joule thief circuit. However, if the circuit is located in a fairly strong EM field, then that might well have some measurable impact on performance. No doubt different types of experiments can be done to help get a better understanding of what is going on. I will do more experiments with this as well, as time permits. I will post up any interesting results back here if you like.
Cheers.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1055 on: June 14, 2013, 12:43:20 AM »
@Lawrence: Thanks for the response. The experiments with the super caps as a power source are interesting, and appear to show some potential, but I personally wouldn't be too quick to try to draw any conclusions or to try to attribute what is going on to any particular factor such as noise or whatever at this point, without doing a lot more experimentation and analysis. I have not seen any indication that noise pickup has any effect on actual circuit performance in my own experiments with the joule thief circuit. However, if the circuit is located in a fairly strong EM field, then that might well have some measurable impact on performance. No doubt different types of experiments can be done to help get a better understanding of what is going on. I will do more experiments with this as well, as time permits. I will post up any interesting results back here if you like.
Cheers.
@Void,

One group in Shenzhen told me that they could use "noise" to light up LEDs already.  I believe that they used some modified form of Joule Thief.  The post from reply 1037 onwards are interesting.  Your quoting of the lasersaber video in which he wirelessly drew energy from Power Supply was of particular interest.

My gut feel is that a circuit can be built not just to pick up external EM noise energy.  It may also oscillate or resonate some EM energy within the electronic components of the circuit.....  The research continues.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:52:44 AM by ltseung888 »

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1056 on: June 14, 2013, 05:22:47 AM »
Effect of "noise" at around 0.38V by Mr. T S Lau.

The experiment was done at the home of Mr. Lau with his window facing a high power line within a few hundred feet.  Board 128 used a timer set to 2 minutes off and 10 seconds on.  Board 127 used no timer.  Both have a capacitor (2.3V 10F).

Board 127 is interesting in that the voltage drop was verry slow after the 0.38V mark.  At such level, the Atten DSO showed much crossing of the 0 ref line for Input CH2 (current).  That indicated both positive and negative power.  Negative Power means energy flowing back to source.....

That explained the much longer "hanging on" of the Battery and the Overunity results.

@Void,

Doing DSO Analysis at noise level may not be useless and meaningless after all.....

I used the same rechargeable AA battery as Mr. Lau in his board 127 experiment.  The Battery was recharged to about 0.4V.  It was connected to Board 120 and the Input Ch1 Vrms value was allowed to drop to the "noise level" after a few hours(with the battery and capacitor in parallel).  The Board was separated from the Scope as far as possible.  The setup was moved to a location far from other electrical appliances.

Attached are the results.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 10:55:48 AM by ltseung888 »

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1057 on: June 14, 2013, 10:43:06 AM »
Let me try to answer the question: "Is the Joule Thief Circuit Overunity?"

Based on the information as of today (June 14, 2015), my answer is:
(1) Based on the Atten DSO results and the Zhou Boards, the Joule Thief Circuit displayed Overunity behavior at around 0.33 to 0.38V DC Input.
(2) At such voltage levels, the electromagnetic noise became significant.  Thus the displayed results would not be accepted as conclusive.
(3) If we add one or more capacitors (e.g. 2.3V 10F) to the circuit, the LED would be faintly ON with such voltage (0.33 to 0.38) for a long time after the battery is removed.  The Atten Scope showed that the Input CH2 (current) waveform crossed the 0 ref line with many spikes.
(4) As the Output Voltage and Current were mostly positive, the Output Power would be positive.
(5) The Input Voltage (CH1) was always positive.  Negative Input Current (CH2) would give rise to Negative Power.  Negative Power would indicate feedback to the source (or recharging the capacitor or battery).
(6) COP could be determined by the ratio of Average Output Power over Average Input Power.  With Input Current (CH2) crossing the 0 ref line, the Average Input Power could be very small.  Thus COP could be very large (much greater than 1 or overunity.)

The above should be verified with better Scopes and skilled experts to ensure that no setup errors were introduced.  One possible explanation of the crossing 0 ref line is due to presence of electrosmog or EM noise.  Another possible explanation may be a still not understood source.....

@poynt99
Do you think that you can do the above verification with your Tektronics and Board 33?  Look for the cross 0 ref line behavior at around (0.33 to 0.38V) from your DC Power supply?

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1058 on: June 14, 2013, 01:40:44 PM »
@Void,
One group in Shenzhen told me that they could use "noise" to light up LEDs already.  I believe that they used some modified form of Joule Thief.  The post from reply 1037 onwards are interesting.  Your quoting of the lasersaber video in which he wirelessly drew energy from Power Supply was of particular interest.
My gut feel is that a circuit can be built not just to pick up external EM noise energy.  It may also oscillate or resonate some EM energy within the electronic components of the circuit.....  The research continues.

When I mentioned that I have not seen indications that 'noise' can affect the performance of the joule thief circuit, I am referring to the particular joule thief circuit you and I have been testing with, and I am referring to just the ordinary ambient electrical noise background level that is picked up by the joule thief circuit. As I mentioned previously, if you place a joule thief circuit in a fairly strong EM field such as close to a power transformer or any other device that emits a strong EM field around it, then that might well cause the LED to glow, and we know already that this can happen. I am making a distinction between the ordinary ambient electrical noise level background as opposed to the energy pickup that might occur in the presence of much stronger fields. There are actually people doing research on using ambient RF energy pickup to power low power circuits. For example Nokia is doing research on such a circuit to use in their cell phones which they hope one day will allow a cell phone battery to be constantly recharging from ambient electrical noise and radiated RF signal pickup. There are various others doing research into this area. As I mentioned previously, I have no doubt that much better circuits than a joule thief circuit can be devised to pick up ambient electrical noise and radiated RF and EM fields around electronics equipment and such, and use that energy as a power source, but I am not too interested in this, and it is not really related to the topic at hand which is in regards to whether a joule thief circuit is over unity. I wouldn't consider a circuit that powers itself from ambient EM energy to be 'over unity' in the sense that we are investigating here, although in a sense it is 'free energy'.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1059 on: June 14, 2013, 02:03:06 PM »
Let me try to answer the question: "Is the Joule Thief Circuit Overunity?"
Based on the information as of today (June 14, 2015), my answer is:
(1) Based on the Atten DSO results and the Zhou Boards, the Joule Thief Circuit displayed Overunity behavior at around 0.33 to 0.38V DC Input.
(2) At such voltage levels, the electromagnetic noise became significant.  Thus the displayed results would not be accepted as conclusive.
(3) If we add one or more capacitors (e.g. 2.3V 10F) to the circuit, the LED would be faintly ON with such voltage (0.33 to 0.38) for a long time after the battery is removed.  The Atten Scope showed that the Input CH2 (current) waveform crossed the 0 ref line with many spikes.
(4) As the Output Voltage and Current were mostly positive, the Output Power would be positive.
(5) The Input Voltage (CH1) was always positive.  Negative Input Current (CH2) would give rise to Negative Power.  Negative Power would indicate feedback to the source (or recharging the capacitor or battery).
(6) COP could be determined by the ratio of Average Output Power over Average Input Power.  With Input Current (CH2) crossing the 0 ref line, the Average Input Power could be very small.  Thus COP could be very large (much greater than 1 or overunity.)
The above should be verified with better Scopes and skilled experts to ensure that no setup errors were introduced.  One possible explanation of the crossing 0 ref line is due to presence of electrosmog or EM noise.  Another possible explanation may be a still not understood source.....
@poynt99
Do you think that you can do the above verification with your Tektronics and Board 33?  Look for the cross 0 ref line behavior at around (0.33 to 0.38V) from your DC Power supply?

Sorry, but in my opinion you are again attempting to draw conclusions based on unproven assumptions. You also still seem to be overlooking that when electrical noise pickup is a significant portion of the waveform you are trying to measure, that the error in the measurements will be too high to make meaningful measurements. It is not that measurements made under such conditions are "inconclusive" as you are saying here, as if the measurements still have some degree of validity. The measurements made under such conditions are meaningless due to the high likelihood for a very large degree of error. I have already demonstrated that the measurements can be way off under such measurement conditions. I have mentioned that you can possibly use a good quality amplified differential scope probe to make measurements under such conditions, but even then the person making the measurements would need to be well versed in making measurements under such conditions and be able to make sure that all measurement equipment is calibrated properly and used correctly and within the measuring equipment's practical limitations.

If you see zero crossing on the input current waveform, this does not necessarily imply over unity. It may indicate that input power consumption is reduced, but without proper measurements being done for both the input and output power, you can't know anything about actual circuit efficiency or over unity. Such can only be speculation. Other types of experiments might be setup to help get a better understanding of what is going on however. At any rate, if the signal to noise ratio of the waveforms being measured is too low for accurate measurements, it is not going to help at all if you make the measurements on a higher end scope. The poor signal to noise ratio will still be the same, with the one possible exception for the case where much of the electrical noise was being generated by the scope power supply and circuitry of the lower end scope itself. Under poor signal to noise ratio measurement conditions you would have to move to something like a high quality amplified differential scope probe, as I have mentioned already, but even then it would require someone with proper training and experience to ensure proper measurements are done.

Edit: By the way, I am not saying that I believe your joule thief circuit couldn't ever produce over unity under certain conditions, just that I think a lot more experimentation and analysis would need to be done before attempting to draw any conclusions. I think the best you can say so far is that under certain conditions you appear to be getting a higher efficiency, but the best efficiency that can be achieved is still not determined yet.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 11:35:16 PM by Void »

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1060 on: June 15, 2013, 12:45:41 AM »
I was reading the book "The Chinese Dream" by Helen Wang.  In the book, she mentioned that China should pour much more resources in Research now.  The simple copying or manufacturing period is over.

Energy Research is and will be an area worth much research.  The traditional mode of years of study, peer review papers or confidential laboratories may be outdated.  USA, Japan and other countries are increasing money supply to boost the economy.  Another term is to pump money into "meaningful economic activities".

The posts and comments in the last few months at least helped to identify the procedures and pitfalls in using a relatively inexpensive oscilloscope to measure Input and Output Power.  It also pointed to the potential "bringing-in" or "leading-out" of electrosmog as a source of energy.  It did not rule out the possibility of another "not yet well understood" source related to oscillation and resonance.

I sow seeds.  The seeds may or may not bear fruit.  But much watering, fertilizing, weeding etc. will be required.  The result of my postings, hopefully, will result in much more resources poured into the energy research field.  The "farmers" or researchers in China are reading other work such as those from Lasersaber etc.

I know my limitations.  I just contribute what I can to the pursuit of "meaningful economic activities".....

God Bless

#### SeaMonkey

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1292
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1061 on: June 16, 2013, 09:39:33 AM »
The "noise" shown on recently posted
photos of the scope display looks very
familiar.  Would your setup be near an

While attending Navy Electronics Technician
"A" School at Treasure Island near San
Francisco in 1961 we noticed the same
sort of noise in many of our laboratory
sessions.  Treasure Island was across the
bay from a strong AM Country and Western
station (can't remember the callsign but
the music was pretty good) located right
on the shore at Oakland just north of the
bay bridge about one mile or so distant.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1062 on: June 16, 2013, 11:42:41 AM »
The "noise" shown on recently posted
photos of the scope display looks very
familiar.  Would your setup be near an

While attending Navy Electronics Technician
"A" School at Treasure Island near San
Francisco in 1961 we noticed the same
sort of noise in many of our laboratory
sessions.  Treasure Island was across the
bay from a strong AM Country and Western
station (can't remember the callsign but
the music was pretty good) located right
on the shore at Oakland just north of the
bay bridge about one mile or so distant.
@SeaMonkey,
The various pictures were taken in three different locations.  One was at Zhou's shop amongst thousands of other small electronic stores.  I should say - counters or tables - rather than stores.  The spikes were most noticeable.  Another place was the lab of Dr. Ting who was experimenting with wireless Joule Thief or remote charging.  The third place was my bedroom.  My bedroom was inside a typical residential area of Hong Kong with skyscapters all around.  When one tried to find routers, one could see almost an unending list with at least a dozen showing strong signals.

Thus I did not rule out that the long lighting of the LED at around 0.4V was due to EM noise.  Dr. Ting demonstrated that EM Noise was most probably a factor when he turned on his wireless Joule Thief setup and brought it close to my Joule Thief.  The spikes on the scope were much higher.....

I shall bring the Atten to Mr. T S Lau's place.  His window was facing a Power Line a few hundred meters away.  I shall compare that with a location away from "civilization".....

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1063 on: June 16, 2013, 03:50:32 PM »
Thus I did not rule out that the long lighting of the LED at around 0.4V was due to EM noise.  Dr. Ting demonstrated that EM Noise was most probably a factor when he turned on his wireless Joule Thief setup and brought it close to my Joule Thief.  The spikes on the scope were much higher.....
I shall bring the Atten to Mr. T S Lau's place.  His window was facing a Power Line a few hundred meters away.  I shall compare that with a location away from "civilization".....

As I have shown, the noise voltage measured on the scope for the current waveforms does not reflect the actual currents in the circuit when the current magnitudes are well down into the noise level. As the input voltage drops, the current draw is getting lower and lower, so it wouldn't be surprising that the rate of discharge for a battery or a super cap will slow down quite a bit as the input voltage drops into the low range. When the input voltage falls below about .4 volts or so, the power dissipation of the JT circuit is getting quite low, so the power drain on a battery or a super cap will be very little in this operating range.

One experiment you could do to try to determine if ambient noise pickup is having any effect on circuit performance is to decide on an exact circuit configuration and starting input voltage setting such as 20F super caps set to say 0.4V, and then time how long it takes for the LED to turn off in a location with less ambient noise compared to a location with noticeably higher ambient electrical noise. You would have to accurately measure the input starting voltage with a scope or decent multimeter for the test to be valid however. You would probably want to make a least a few test runs at each location to get an indication of how consistent the discharge times are for the same location and same circuit configuration and input voltage. You would want to keep the circuit board away from devices that generate a strong EM field like power supplies that have large power transformers or switch mode power supplies, etc., as we know that devices that have fairly strong EM fields around them will definitely affect the circuit performance. This assumes you are interested in trying to determine the effects of the ambient electrical noise level on circuit performance and not the effect of stronger EM fields that can be generated by certain electronics devices. Just to clarify, I make a distinction between the ambient electrical noise level that exists when one is not close to any electronics devices that have a strong EM field around them, and stronger EM fields that can be encountered around or close to certain types of electronics devices, or AC power lines, etc. No doubt stronger EM fields could very well have some impact on the JT circuit performance, and as we know such stronger EM fields could make the LED light without any power applied to the circuit. I wouldn't call such stronger EM fields 'ambient electrical noise' however.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:45:25 PM by Void »

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1064 on: June 20, 2013, 01:07:50 AM »
The EM noise from the Power Lines at T S Lau's home is confirmed.

The Forever Lighted Lamp Project has been started.  The initial goal is lighting the LED with the EM noise for at least 3 months.  Review and improve as needed.

The two presentation files have been shown to people with plenty of time and people with plenty of money.  Team them up and get people with plenty of expertise.....

The "One World" paradigm shift has started???