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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 578588 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #795 on: May 10, 2013, 09:05:51 PM »
Day 4 of the experiment.  There is excitement with the results.
 
Note that the voltage on Board 116 has dropped to 0.352V but the LED was still ON.  The voltage on Board 124 was 1.175V and the LED was still brightly ON.  The contrast of the brightness was unmistakeable even to an old man with poor eyesight.
 
Why should the addition of the Capacitor and the Twin Timer made so much difference?  The timer was bought at a local electric components store and no schematics or circuit diagram of the timer was provided.
 
While I waited for the possible purchase of the Tektronics, I used the Atten to find out what was going on.  There was still the crossing of the 0 reference line.  But there were sharp voltage spikes in both directions well exceeding 20mV.  That would imply positive and negative Input Power or pulse charging and draining of the battery.
 
@Poynt99
Can you check this out with your Tektronics now?  Otherwise, we have to wait a few weeks.  Thanks.  For this part of the experiment, you do not need the Timer.  You just need to get a rechargeable AA battery and hook it up to Board 33 with NO capacitor.  Wait for 3-4 days until the battery voltage drops to below 400mV.  Then take scope pictures.  All other testers can do the same.
 
This "spike crossing 0 reference line" may explain the long life of some JTs - over 1 year?  Amen.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #796 on: May 11, 2013, 12:09:36 AM »
Day 4 of the experiment.  There is excitement with the results.
 
Note that the voltage on Board 116 has dropped to 0.352V but the LED was still ON.  The voltage on Board 124 was 1.175V and the LED was still brightly ON.  The contrast of the brightness was unmistakeable even to an old man with poor eyesight.
 
Why should the addition of the Capacitor and the Twin Timer made so much difference?  The timer was bought at a local electric components store and no schematics or circuit diagram of the timer was provided.
 
While I waited for the possible purchase of the Tektronics, I used the Atten to find out what was going on.  There was still the crossing of the 0 reference line.  But there were sharp voltage spikes in both directions well exceeding 20mV.  That would imply positive and negative Input Power or pulse charging and draining of the battery.
 
@Poynt99
Can you check this out with your Tektronics now?  Otherwise, we have to wait a few weeks.  Thanks.  For this part of the experiment, you do not need the Timer.  You just need to get a rechargeable AA battery and hook it up to Board 33 with NO capacitor.  Wait for 3-4 days until the battery voltage drops to below 400mV.  Then take scope pictures.  All other testers can do the same.
 
This "spike crossing 0 reference line" may explain the long life of some JTs - over 1 year?  Amen.

One would expect the LED will soon be OFF with a 0.352V AA battery supplying energy.  It is at least 3 hours since my last post.  The LED is still ON on Board 116.
 
The most surprising thing was that LED on Board 124 with the capacitor and the timer is still ON brightly.  The Brightness is always on the high side.
 
This experiment is easy to perform and repeat.  Highly accurate instruments are not needed. 
 
Are the Zhou Boards OU in this environment???

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #797 on: May 11, 2013, 12:46:42 AM »
The Input waveform expanded.  The time scale was changed to show more detail on the spikes.
 
It was clear that the spikes go above and below the main horizontal trace.  The values are approximately the same.  If we take the main horizontal trace as the "presumed 0 ref line", we have positive current and negative current.
 
Now it is a matter of waveform and NOT accuracy.  Will the Tektronics or other reliable DSOs produce the same or similar waveform?
 
Can the up and down spikes explain the long lighting of a 0.352V rechargeable battery?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #798 on: May 11, 2013, 02:23:45 AM »
Another result 2 hours later.  I hope to have more results before the LED on Board 116 goes OFF completely.
 
So far, it appears that the LED will still be ON for several hours more.  The up and down spikes may actually mean charging and draining of the rechargeable battery.  Additional energy (Lead-out energy?)must come in to do that.
 
The encouraging part is that Board 124 LED is still brightly ON.  We do not have to work with dim LEDs.
 
This particular experiment will be repeated with multiple Boards and Parties in Hong Kong and Shenzhen first - with 4-CH Tektronics when available.  It may open the door to the mystery of lighting many LEDs for months or years with just a rechargeable AA battery.  I am sure that Lead-out energy is responsible.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #799 on: May 11, 2013, 05:13:26 AM »
May 11, 11:05 am.  LED on Board 116 still ON.
 
Shall go out for 3 hours.  Not bad for a battery reading less than 360mV.
 
LED on Board 124 is still brightly ON.  I shall meet a couple of researchers for lunch.  I shall ask them to do the same experiment on their boards.  Just purchase rechargeable AA batteries.  They already have DMMs.   This experiment is definitely worth repeating and spreading to multiple groups.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #800 on: May 11, 2013, 09:53:05 AM »
May 11 3:40pm.  LED on Board 116 still ON dimly.
 
Spike on both side of 0 ref line for Input Current clearly shown by Atten.
 
Board 124 LED still ON brightly.  TS Lau working on normal AA battery comparison. (one board has capacitor and the other has none.)  Will publish results when the LED is OFF.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #801 on: May 11, 2013, 11:51:21 AM »
Started six more boards to ensure no experimental errors.
 
(1) Board 121 by TS LAU - simple JT with no capacitor, normal new AA battery.
(2) Board 122 by TS Lau - simple JT with capacitor, normal new AA battery.
(3) Board 118 by Tseung - simple JT with capacitor, rechargeable AA battery
(4) Board 125 by Tseung - simple JT with no capacitor, normal AA battery already drained down.
(5) Board 119 by Tseung - simple JT with no capacitor, normal AA battery already drained down.
(6) Board 108 by Tseung - simple JT with no capacitor, rechargeable AA battery
 
More will be started by other testers in the next few days/weeks.  Let us make no mistakes on this one.  This one single experiment will confirm that the Zhou boards are guaranteed OU under the specific situation.
 
God works in mysterious ways.  There may have been false alarm due to DC offset.  But this is waveform requiring little accuracy.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #802 on: May 11, 2013, 10:56:14 PM »
Day 5 results.  LED on Board 116 still ON.   How can a rechargeable AA Battery reading 0.352V keep the LED ON for a full 24 hours and more?
 
Energy must come in from somewhere else.  Lead-out Energy?  Confirmed OU?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #803 on: May 11, 2013, 11:18:09 PM »
Photos of Board 116 on May 12, 2013 at 5:00am.
 
Mother's day gift to the World.....

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #804 on: May 11, 2013, 11:39:23 PM »
I have done some testing with a standard joule thief circuit which Lawrence's boards are apparently based on, and I want to post some scope shots. However, I don't see an option in the editor to insert an image. I have the images up on photobucket. Is there a way to put an image from another website such as photobucket inline in my reply, or is the only way to use the file attachment feature? It seems there should be a way to put images inline in my message text.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #805 on: May 11, 2013, 11:59:44 PM »
Try to use the first icon on the left above the smiley line when you are in Reply, it is "insert hyperlink"  (includes a small blue Earth globe). Maybe it makes inserting that image possible, I have not tried.

Gyula

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #806 on: May 12, 2013, 12:19:49 AM »
Thanks Gyula. It looks like the hyperlink feature doesn't work for inline images. It seems that maybe the only way to do it is to attach the images.

Ok, I have run some power tests with the 'standard' joule thief circuit. I used whatever parts I happened to have handy. I didn't have a smaller ferrite toroid, so I used a larger one I had available. Each winding on the ferrite core has 28 turns.

I am attaching images of the schematic of the circuit I used, my proto board layout, and scope shots of my voltage and current measurements taken for average input and output power measurement.

Since the scope waveforms were all pretty stable and quite consistent over time, I am using the RMS measurement feature on my scope to determine average input and output power. It may not be super accurate, but should be close enough to actual, I would think.

I used 1 ohm, 5%, 2W resistors in series to make input and output current measurements.

Here are my measured results:

Average Input Power:
Vin = 508mV
Iin = 8.55mA
Input Power = 4.34mW

Average Output Power:
Vout = 897mV
Iout = 3.66mA
Output Power = 3.28mW

Efficiency = 3.28mw/4.34mW x 100 = 75.58%

My next step will be to try to improve on the efficiency of this circuit.
Tinselkoala has suggested a 70nF capacitor in parallel with the 1k base resistor, so I will try that.
Does anyone have any other suggestions for improving efficiency while still keeping close to this circuit design?

Lawrence, do you have any suggestions for me to make my circuit closer to your boards? My circuit should be fairly close to your circuit except for the ferrite core I used, and possibly my winding method. Do you think that the ferrite core is an important factor here, or do you think my coil winding method is making a difference here? If I am correctly interpreting the scope shots you have been posting recently (it would help if you mentioned what each scope trace is representing in your scope shots), your input current waveforms look a lot different than mine?

- void -

In the scope shots below, yellow are the voltage traces, and green are the current traces.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 06:32:49 AM by Void »

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #807 on: May 12, 2013, 06:19:51 AM »
I tried another test with the exact same Joule Thief circuit that I used in my previous test (see me previous post above), except this time I placed a capacitor in parallel to the 1k ohm base resistor. I didn't have all that many capacitor values in the low nF range to try with, but I tried 100nF, 20nF, and 10nF. The 10nF nominal value (12.5nF measured value) capacitor seemed to give the highest efficiency of these three values. With the 12.5nF capacitor in parallel to the 1k ohm base resistor, efficiency increased to 95.2%, however the LED glows dimmer for about the same input voltage due to less current flowing in the circuit. At any rate, adding a parallel capacitor across the 1k ohm base resistor appears to have increased efficiency a fair bit with my circuit setup. Thanks Tinselkoala for the suggestion. If you compare the scope shots from the previous test to the scope shots from this new test, it appears that the parallel base capacitor limits the amplitude of the current spike peaks quite a bit, which for some reason seems to increase efficiency a fair bit. This also caused the frequency of oscillation to increase a fair bit as well. I am attaching the scope shots which I used to make the input and output measurements with the 12.5nF cap across the base resistor.

Average Input Power:
Vin = 510mV
Iin = 1.84mA
Input Power = 938uW

Average Output Power:
Vout = 921mV
Iout = 970uA
Output Power = 893uW

Efficiency = 893uW/938uW x 100 = 95.2%

- void -

In the scope shots below, yellow are the voltage traces, and green are the current traces.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #808 on: May 12, 2013, 09:36:44 AM »
@void: Thanks for performing your tests. I think that the toroid that LTseung is using has more turns on the "secondary" winding; this could make a difference in your basic results (and also your result with the extra capacitor across the base resistor.) May I suggest that you try 25 and 50 turns? Also, when a core is assembled from pieces there can be small gaps at the mating surfaces that affect the magnetic field in the core. While JTs will work with almost any transformer core design, even straight rods, to give Lawrence's system a fair trial you really should consider using a one-piece toroid for the transformer. Old PC power supplies will have usable toroids in them. Toroids aren't that hard to wind if you use a long skinny spindle-type bobbin that will hold your wire and fit through the hole in the toroid. Wind the wire onto the spindle then "unwind" the spindle through the hole in the toroid, it makes things a lot easier.

I'm not sure about your calculations using RMS values. I'd like to hear PW and .99 weigh in on that topic. You didn't include your current-viewing resistors or your probe locations in your diagram, so I'm assuming you are using them in the same positions that Lawrence showed on his last posted schematic. Looking forward to more results, thanks! Is your scope capable of integrating?



Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #809 on: May 12, 2013, 09:41:21 AM »
@Lawrence: How can you be absolutely sure that your timer device is not supplying any power at all to your circuit under test? How can you be sure that you have indeed accounted for all power inputs to your circuit? As I've shown, the circuit you and void and I are using is capable of picking up power from the environment very easily, and can produce bright light in the LED without even being connected to anything with any wires at all, if there's sufficient ambient power floating around. And power supplies and instrument probe leads can trick you by supplying power through ground loops and other wiring infecilities.