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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 600312 times)

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #615 on: April 17, 2013, 07:14:18 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-a2BBPqik&feature=youtu.be
 
Another video to confirm that Input Current (Iin on Ch2) can change from positive to negative value by varying the Input Voltage.
 
This means that we can vary the COP from 9.6mV to -16mV on Board 80 by increasing the Input Voltage Vrms from 360mV to 1.12V.  The sero Ch2 Vavg occurred when the Input CH1Vrms was at around 440mV.
 
The experiment can be repeated easily.  Board 80 can be guaranteed to be OU!!!

Rodelu

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #616 on: April 17, 2013, 08:01:35 AM »
Board 80 can be guaranteed to be OU!!!

 :P :P :P :P

hoptoad

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #617 on: April 17, 2013, 09:37:14 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-a2BBPqik&feature=youtu.be
 
Another video to confirm that Input Current (Iin on Ch2) can change from positive to negative value by varying the Input Voltage.
 
This means that we can vary the COP from 9.6mV to -16mV on Board 80 by increasing the Input Voltage Vrms from 360mV to 1.12V.  The sero Ch2 Vavg occurred when the Input CH1Vrms was at around 440mV.
 
The experiment can be repeated easily.  Board 80 can be guaranteed to be OU!!!

So now you know the "resonant" voltage needed for that particular circuit to produce a high reactive current. ?

Next ..... put a 1000 Uf capacitor (or more) in parallel with the DC supply, connected as closely as possible to the board, allow the capacitor to fully charge to the running voltage value, then disconnect the DC supply. Time how long it takes to discharge, or not!

Then, it's either TAaa DAAaaaaaaaa .... look at the "majick" we have here!,  or,  cheese, please, with my humble pie, thank you.

Good luck, whichever way it goes.

Cheers

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #618 on: April 17, 2013, 10:25:05 AM »
@Lawrence: Congratulations on the measurement of COP vs. Input Voltage. That is an important bit of information. Your graph does not present the data correctly, though.

In graphing data one generally puts the "independent variable" on the horizontal axis and the "dependent variables" on the vertical axes. The IV is what the researcher is controlling and the DVs are what the researcher is measuring. In this case the Voltage Input is the IV and the COP is the DV. You have plotted "trial number" on the horizontal axis and both Vin and COP on the vertical axis and so your graph is garbled.

You could re-do this graph. It would display only the single COP line. The horizontal axis would be the voltage levels, and the vertical axis the calculated COP. Then your graph would display the relationship between Vin and COP properly.
Graph redone.

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #619 on: April 17, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »
So now you know the "resonant" voltage needed for that particular circuit to produce a high reactive current. ?

Next ..... put a 1000 Uf capacitor (or more) in parallel with the DC supply, connected as closely as possible to the board, allow the capacitor to fully charge to the running voltage value, then disconnect the DC supply. Time how long it takes to discharge, or not!

Then, it's either TAaa DAAaaaaaaaa .... look at the "majick" we have here!,  or,  cheese, please, with my humble pie, thank you.

Good luck, whichever way it goes.

Cheers

One step at a time.  We just want to demonstrate OU here.  Do not expect one jump and you can reach the top of Mount Everest.
 
Try the Lasersaber Joule Ringer circuit if you want.  Use the oscilloscope analysis technique on that Circuit.  You will have much better luck or chance of success than this simple JT circuit. 

hoptoad

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #620 on: April 17, 2013, 11:09:53 AM »
One step at a time.  We just want to demonstrate OU here.  Do not expect one jump and you can reach the top of Mount Everest.
 snip...

Then demonstrate it with something that provides corroborating data from a differing measurement set to your pretty scope shots. Corroborating data from alternative / adjunctive measurements is a great start to "demonstrating OU".

What better way to show OU than a simple capacitor test showing extended rundown periods or no rundown at all. Connect a capacitor,
do the test. It's that simple. You've already got everything there in your lab. It ain't rocket science. Surely you have a capacitor lying around somewhere?

Cheers

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #621 on: April 17, 2013, 03:29:10 PM »
Then demonstrate it with something that provides corroborating data from a differing measurement set to your pretty scope shots. Corroborating data from alternative / adjunctive measurements is a great start to "demonstrating OU".

What better way to show OU than a simple capacitor test showing extended rundown periods or no rundown at all. Connect a capacitor,
do the test. It's that simple. You've already got everything there in your lab. It ain't rocket science. Surely you have a capacitor lying around somewhere?

Cheers

 
I am afraid that the experiments are not that simple.  With similar components, the FLEET boards could light up the LED for different length of time.  The average was 20 minutes.  But there were a few occasions that a Board lighted the LED for over four hours.  The longest I experienced was nine hours.  I never really understood why.   One possible explanation was “some kind of electromagnetic resonance”.
 
 
 
The latest oscilloscope experiments suggested another possible explanation.   The Average Input Power could be positive – meaning energy was drained from the battery.  This would be the normal thinking.  But experiments also show that the Average Input Power could be negative – meaning energy was fed back to the Input Source.  That could recharge a battery or a capacitor.  This recharging happened at the same time as lighting up the LED.  Energy had to come from somewhere.  This was evidence for Lead-out Energy.
 
 
 
With the simple Joule Thief Circuit fluctuating around the "CH2 Vavg=0" position, positive COP and negative COP was clearly observed.  This meant alternative charging and draining.  This fluctuating condition was not that stable.  The hope was that this fluctuation could last forever and we could have achieved the Forever lighted Lamp with this simple circuit.  The reality was – the circuit now could not guarantee such occurrence.  The Lasersaber Joule Ringer circuit appeared to be much better but I have not tested it yet.
 
 
 
The next improvement I tried was to use a rechargeable battery in parallel with the capacitor.  Sure enough, we could detect that the rechargeable battery could go up in Voltage considerably (from 1.26V to 1.40V).  But it could also drop from 1.4V back to 1.26V or lower.  One manual procedure was to watch whether the battery was in the recharging or the draining state.  On recharging state, left it alone.  On draining state, took it out.  Let the battery rest and recharge another battery.  Obviously, such a process could only be possible in a research environment.
 
 
 
It appeared that many people at this forum did not have a DSO to observe what was really happening with the JT circuit and the variations.  They experimented using only multimeters.  It was like shooting birds in the dark.  They hoped to fire and  pick up some birds for dinner.  Lead-out Energy Technology is not that simple.  God  Bless…..
 

poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #622 on: April 17, 2013, 05:29:23 PM »
Lawrence,

As I've discussed in the past, using two voltage meters (one across the battery and one across the battery CSR) will provide a very accurate Pin measurement. Simply set the two meters on DC volts (or millivolts) and multiply the average battery voltage by the average battery current (assuming a 1 Ohm CSR).

Don't try this for Pout though, as it will not provide a correct result.

NickZ

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #623 on: April 17, 2013, 05:42:55 PM »
  The only proof that we are looking for is that you make a video of your BEST PROVEN OU BOARD, only. Charge a capacitor, and let it run down to nothing. That is all you need to do.
Oh, you already did that, and it drained, in a few minutes, not hours, and DIED. 
  WOW! 
           
   If you let the capacitor rest, the bounce-back effect will charge it back up, not your FLEET lead out, bring-in energy BS. If you further connect it back into the circuit, if will again drain to nothing. Period.
  The led bulb's load drain on the circuit is higher than what what the bounce back effect will provide, and there will always be a negative discharging voltage and current drain.  Regardless of what your scope is showing you. The proof is the dead capacitor, or battery, in EVERY SINGLE CASE.

  You should build the Lasersaber low draw circuit, or his Cross-over circuit, and test that on the capacitor. That is a much more economical circuit to use. Not the low perm iron powder toroid, with several resistors circuit, that you are now waisting your time on.

  The point being: That what you are doing is worthless, as there is no bright useable light coming out of your led(s). A blinking, dim led, is not what anyone is looking for a proof of OU.
  I would suggest that you STOP raving about what you have, or you will further discredit this forum.

   What you have done in trying to confirm OU is great. It's the idiotic raving, and religious BS that goes along with it that has most of us perplexed at your attitude.
All this while showing nothing, at all, that proofs anything close to, or resembling OU.
 


ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #624 on: April 17, 2013, 10:55:10 PM »
Lawrence,

As I've discussed in the past, using two voltage meters (one across the battery and one across the battery CSR) will provide a very accurate Pin measurement. Simply set the two meters on DC volts (or millivolts) and multiply the average battery voltage by the average battery current (assuming a 1 Ohm CSR).

Don't try this for Pout though, as it will not provide a correct result.
@Poynt99,
 
Sorry that I have to disagree with you on this point.  Please see the attached two diagrams showing the "voltmeter" readings and the Input CSR waveform.  The product of the two voltmeter readings cannot possibly give a correct Pin value.  We have to rely on the DSOs.

*** The "feedback or Back EMF" from the Circuit will modify the simple DC conditions at Input.
 
When will you show us your results from your 4-CH DSO?

poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #625 on: April 18, 2013, 12:58:28 AM »
Lawrence,

The CSR wave form is a varying DC, and it DOES have an average DC value, which is what we want the meter to tell us.

It is telling us that you are using an average of 16mA supplied to the circuit, and that the average input power is 10.56mW.

I'd say that is very much in the ball park.

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #626 on: April 18, 2013, 02:00:34 AM »
Lawrence,

The CSR wave form is a varying DC, and it DOES have an average DC value, which is what we want the meter to tell us.

It is telling us that you are using an average of 16mA supplied to the circuit, and that the average input power is 10.56mW.

I'd say that is very much in the ball park.
@poynt99:
 
I expanded the Input waveform diagram for you.  It is clear that the Iin values crossed the zero axis.  Thus it cannot be treated as varying DC.  It is not a perfect AC.  It is the "pulsed wave" with both positive and negative values.  The Vavg is the -8.80mV as indicated on the Scope and NOT the 16mV on the meter.
 
We have to rely on the formula:
 
Instantaneous Power = Instantaneous Voltage x Instantaneous Current
 
and use EXCEl on the sample points to get the correct Pin. 

gedfire

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #627 on: April 18, 2013, 05:04:40 AM »
Hi All,

I read throught this webpage and found this piece of research eye opening.Notice amp drop and increase in frequency.I would also want to know about the duty cycle too.

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

Ged

picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #628 on: April 18, 2013, 06:12:24 AM »
Lawrence,

It would be wise to check the DC offset of your scopes.

A simple test for this would be to connect all probe tips directly to their ground clips and then set all input channels to 20mV per division sensitivity.

Set the scopes to trigger on "line" and see what your scopes' DC measurements are.  All channels should measure zero volts DC.


Also, do you you always use the same scope to measure input and the same scope to measure output?

Have you ever swapped the scopes to confirm your measurements are consitent regardless of which scope measures input or output? 
 
PW


picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #629 on: April 18, 2013, 07:23:28 AM »
Lawrence,

Having read back a bit, I see .99 previously asked about your scope offset.

Could you post the raw data of your scope offset tests?   

The raw data for slide 13 shows your LED drawing 12ma when only 80mv is applied to it.  One would expect the LED current draw to be much less than that with 80mv applied.

PW