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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 602648 times)

conradelektro

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #210 on: January 01, 2013, 01:27:13 PM »
@TinselKoala:
I watched your latest videos (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJPi35cRrE ) and I remember the following test results:

A Joule Thief starts to oscillate easily in case one uses a high inductanc coil (e.g. a Ferrite toroid). With a high inductance coil one also gets away with many different ratios between primary and secondary (1:1 ratio will always work, higher ratios give higer output Voltage).

It all becomes much more sensitive with a low inductance coil (e.g. air coil). First of all the ratio between primary and secondary starts to matter. And also the power supply voltage becomes an issue. Power supply voltages higher than 8 Volt cause problems (the transistor starts to burn). Careful pulse shaping at the base (capacitor and diode from base to ground) allows higher supply voltages up to 24 Volt.

So, hight inductance coil, one gets away with a lot of the parameters, things are easy.

Low inductance coil, one has to be careful with the ratio between primary and secondary and with the pulse at the base when using a high supply voltage. The low inductance coil is interesting because it allows high frequency operation in the MHz, which seems to lower power consumption.

Greetings, Conrad

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #211 on: January 19, 2013, 12:36:42 PM »
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1617.msg27510#msg27510
I am building many prototypes that showed overunity with the two Atten Oscilloscopes.  The difference with the standard JT is the addition of a proper capacitor in parallel with the Power Supply.  If a super capacitor such as 2.3V 10F were used, the LED would remain ON for many minutes.  The frequency would change and some peaks would be observed on the oscilloscope.
The above link will have the details.  You are welcome to replicate and have guaranteed overunity devices.

TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #212 on: January 19, 2013, 06:15:48 PM »
Well, Lawrence, what can I say. Your work always amazes me.

This present set of photos actually makes my teeth hurt, they are so sweet. It reminds me of the very first electronic circuits I ever built.... when I was nine years old.

Since you have so many overunity versions of your Joule Thief, I'm sure you will soon be showing us one of them, running only from the output of another one of them, which in turn is run from the output of the first one.

If you can't get a 2-unit series loop arrangement to work, then you may need to put several more JTs in series to achieve the desired self-looped effect. I think four or five in series should be enough to show something of interest, but you might need ten or more, depending on various factors. At least we know you have all the parts necessary to do this testing.

Please keep us posted on your inspiring work.


TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #213 on: January 19, 2013, 09:15:57 PM »
Yes, Lawrence, your work is an inspiration to me.

When I saw your photos above, I knew what my morning project would be. So here it is.

Figure captions:
1. Layout for the PCB, drawing the layout on the copper cladding with the resist pen
2. Preparing to etch with Ferric Chloride
3. Etching partially complete
4. Rinsing after 20 minutes in etching solution
5. Clean of resist using acetone
6. Drilling holes for component leads
7. Inspecting, verifying layout
8. Soldering components to the board
9. Initial testing
10. The backside of the completed circuit board
11. Final product, brilliant LED using a depleted LR44 button cell



TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #214 on: January 20, 2013, 12:09:27 AM »
There may be some problem loading some of those images -- so I put them all together into a short video with a voiceover narration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFEr4o3sp7U

Lakes

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #215 on: January 20, 2013, 01:11:12 AM »
Very good, the audio was "interesting" too... hehe

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #216 on: January 20, 2013, 08:45:12 AM »
There may be some problem loading some of those images -- so I put them all together into a short video with a voiceover narration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFEr4o3sp7U
@TK,

Great Job.  I believe you have examined the circuit diagram in detail.  The trick is to have common grounding for the two probes for the two oscilloscopes.  That is why A3 and A4 looked strange.

Your technique is much better than using the breadboard or simple soldering.  It can stand the shaking during transport.  Your workmanship is much superior to mine.  I had to spend an average of 3 days to do one board and half of the time, things went wrong due to bad connections or soldering.

If you have two Atten Oscilloscopes or equivalent, you can immediately do the oscilloscope analysis.  With the board as is, the chance of achieving overunity is not too high.  However, you can improve the odds easily by:

(1) Use a DC Power Supply as Source and watch the waveforms on the oscilloscopes.  I found that a lower value (less than 1V DC) can get to higher COP in many cases.

(2) Use the 2.3 10F capacitor (less than 2 USD in Shenzhen) in parallel with the battery or power supply and then disconnect the battery.  The LEDs should remain ON for more than 10 minutes and get dimmer slowly.  The frequency (best to use the Output Voltage frequency) will slowly shift.  At some point, you may find that the COP greater than 1.  This will give you a much higher chance of achieving COP greater than 1.

(3) Once you achieved COP greater than 1 with your set up at a certain frequency range, try to remain in that range with appropriate re-connection of the battery.  Do it manually first and later with circuits.

(4) That is the secret of "Tuning for Tseung Resonance".  Tuning is no longer a shot in the dark or luck.

(5) If you have difficulty in finding the capacitor, I shall be happy to mail you one FREE.  Your oscilloscope-test-ready board will be a great help to all free energy researchers.

Keep up the excellent work.  You will have overunity devices in your hands within days or weeks.
Lawrence
 

ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #217 on: January 20, 2013, 06:31:44 PM »
Re-mystifying the Joule Thief: JT basic testbed (circuit identical to LTseung's) with addition of 70 nF poly film cap, switchable across 1k base resistor, and using the modified Loopstick as the inductor. Load is 24 LEDs, (12 parallel) + (12 parallel) in series. Note that I get pretty good "dim" brightness in the array, even at 1 V and 0.6 milliamps (600 microAmps) input. That is 25 _microwatts_ per LED. Even at the "full" brightness level (with cap) the system only draws 9 or 10 mA, or well under half a milliWatt per LED.
And....the system has several distinct operating modes, but a battery that is too full saturates it and makes it stop working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIWpkywGXs

Resonance or magic?!?

Or just electronics......
 :P
@TK
 
Referring to your video, how long can the very bright mode with the capacitor connected be maintained?  That may already show overunity characteristics.  You may already have a "commerically valuable condition" that can be developed into a product.
 
As you have demonstrated, adding a capacitor totally changed the characteristics of a standard JT.  You did not even use a supercap!  LCR oscillation matching with the Pulsing frequency of the switching transistor got you into "resonance"? 
 
Please compare the Input Power and the Output Power at this bright condition.  The chance that it is overunity is very high.  You already have the circuit diagram to do a two oscilloscope analysis. 
 
Congratulations.
 
The Divine Wine is flowing out from TK......  Amen.

be_design2004

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Optimizing the efficiency of the FLEET demo
« Reply #218 on: January 31, 2013, 10:03:53 AM »
Erased by myself -

due to long waiting for approval of attachement ?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 05:50:40 PM by be_design2004 »

be_design2004

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Optimizing the efficiency of the FLEET demo units
« Reply #219 on: February 01, 2013, 06:16:19 PM »
@Lawrence & @all

(I had to give up the long waiting to get the attached file approved,
 so I put it on an external service instead) :(

I first found Lawrence work on the FLEET-device on the OUR-forum,
but it was blocked for other than internally admired members :)

So I first sent this mail a couple of weeks ago to the hotmail and
netvigator.com address of Lawrence, but it possibly didn't work.


--------------------------------------------
>
> --- On Fri, 1/11/13, be_design2004
> wrote:
>
> > Subject: Optimizing the efficiency of the FLEET demo
> > To: "Ltseung@hotmail.com"
>   <Ltseung@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Friday, January 11, 2013, 1:48 PM

> > Hi Lawrence,
> >
> > hotmail has been unreliable many days lately,
> > so i hope this gets through.
> > (zoho.com may be an ad-free alternative)
> >
> > The OUR-forum was blocked for other than internally
> > admired members :)  so I send this mail instead -
> >
> > --------------------------
> > (just in case you would refer to my mail
> > publicly, pls first delete my address and
> > this sentence)
> > --------------------------
> >
> > If you possibly already are aware of the suggested
>   details below, just disregard them
> >
> >
> > From reading your experience of varying results with
> > different loads, and as you have some serious instrument
    resources, I'll suggest it's a good opportunity to compare
    the effect of load matching with your baseline measurements.
> >
> >
> > 1.
> > Here is an xls-tool - Most_effficient_load_impedance.xls:
       http://db.tt/vBhbjou6

       which should quickly
> > point to the ideal load for the circuit,
> > if the load is mostly resistive.
> >
> >
> > Just plug the three *readings from your setups into
    the tool -
> >
> > Like from your example:
> > (Your data below indicates your load is close to 25 Ohm)
>
> >

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=2fa991b1d3da74133797f92f553899a6&action=dlattach;topic=1617.0;attach=9094;image
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >  Example: *

> > 'Unloaded' use say a 10K load for more safety while measuring
     output voltage = ?
> > (dummy or present)Load resistance = 25
> > Voltage(rms) over the connected load = 2.48
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> > Then replace the load with one having the resulting
> > equvivalent value, and compare making new measurements.
> >
> > Perhaps it's best to take the 'unloaded'
> > voltage reading with a load of more than 100 times
> > higher resistance than the real estimated load,
> > as a totally unload inductive 'spiky' source cold
    give misleading readings and also risk damaging
> > the instruments - a resistive divider will be
> > even more secure while measuring.
> > (the resulting error will be totally
> > insignificant)
> >
> >
> > 2.
> > As we are generating milliwatts, every circuit part
> > matters for improving the result - also on the
> > drive side.
> >
> > The base resistor power loss increases with the square
>   of the voltage over it, so it should be matched with the
> > driving winding turns number.
> >
> > Perhaps one could try with some less drive winding
>   turns balanced with lower base resistor values.
> > (if not the symmetrical transformer is an essential
>   part of the concept)?
> >
> >
> > 3.
> > Something more to try -
> > If you remember, 50 years ago the best method to speed
>   up a silicon transistor was to connect a germanium diode
>   with it's conducting direction from the base to the
>   collector.
> > A modern schottky type could be tried too.
> > (BTW - the 2N2222 is more than 50 years old)
> >
> > 4.
> >
> > The base resistor, after the eventual matching as
>   above, could have a small value capacitor in parallel
    to help speed the switching to compensate/balance
    for a lower average drive current to further save
    energy.
> >
> > 5.
> > The core needs to handle the maximum flux at the
>   highest supply voltage, otherwise it will saturate
    into lower efficiency, this could explain the observed
    increased COP at lower drive voltage.
> >
> > The noted correlation with higher frequency also
> > results in less average flux in the core as the
> > impedance increases with frequency.
> >
> >
> > 6.
> > The conclusion of this points to the use of a more stabilized
> > operating source voltage for a practical user device.
> >
> >
> > would be interesting to see if any of this
    could be of use as I currently have no lab
    setup available
   
> >
> > Best whises for the comming New Year
>
> > /be_design2004

----------------------------

Lawrence, did you receive this on your hotmail address?

markdansie

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #220 on: February 02, 2013, 01:12:06 PM »
The JT is a great device in its own right for the purposes it was designed for. However Lawrence you have in the past misled so many that it is an "overunity" device. Having seen some of your devices running, and stopping after the battery was removed, I am not sure how you can say these anything but very efficient devices to run LED's and extract the last bit of juice out of battery?.
I was sad to see after my visit with your good friends in CA, where i did not see anything to convince me of anything that was overunity, you chose to inform people I was impressed and flying to see you. We were under NDA so it was a shame you broke that.
The JT is a great piece of electronics and very useful as a training tool.
Anyway that is my 10c worth.
I do admire your enthusiasm
Kind Regards

poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #221 on: February 02, 2013, 11:38:42 PM »
Mark,

I know Rosemary Ainslie has been sending you emails asking you to review her thesis and/or experimental evidence.

Please let us now where you are with that?

Thanks,
.99

markdansie

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #222 on: February 03, 2013, 12:02:07 AM »
poynt99
It is going very slowly as it is low on the priority list
I will get to it, however so far nothing moves me.
Mark

TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #223 on: February 05, 2013, 10:18:46 AM »
Well.... not to hijack the thread or anything, but since you mentioned Ainslie.... she is still at it.

Looks like she's getting a little antsy about Mark not snapping to and replying to her right away.

ltseung888

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Re: Optimizing the efficiency of the FLEET demo units
« Reply #224 on: February 20, 2013, 12:32:21 AM »
@Lawrence & @all

Lawrence, did you receive this on your hotmail address? NO
@be_design2004,

Sorry to reply so late.  I did not read this thread for a few weeks as I was preparing some oscilloscope-test-ready boards for the three forums.
Package 33 overunityresearch.com
Package 38 overunity.com
Package 39 Energetic Forum.

These 3 particular packages are being triple tested to ensure the Average Output Power is greater than the Average Input Power.  I normally use the bench ltseung888 at OUR to store my findings including preliminary results.  After I read your post, I double checked and you are right - there are restrictions on that Forum and the casual reader cannot access the ltseung888 bench.

I shall repost the important test data on the three packages in this thread before shipping.

Lawrence