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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 482300 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #945 on: May 31, 2013, 04:57:50 PM »
the back emf spike off any inductor is many times faster than any forward oscillation spike,how can anybody accurately assess the totality of power of this backspike?it happens so fast that it screw-hysterises any measuring meter im sure.its absolutely essential to accurately asses the total wattage of each spike to get a clear picture of totality of spikes no?possible with todays scopes?

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #945 on: May 31, 2013, 04:57:50 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #946 on: May 31, 2013, 06:42:48 PM »
Not possible with Lawrence's Atten scopes, no. Possible with "today's scopes", yes, and even with yesterday's and the day before yesterday's. Believe it or not, inductors and their behaviour in circuits are actually pretty well understood, both theoretically and from a practical standpoint, and people really did do accurate and precise power measurement of circuits containing inductors, before digital oscilloscopes came along.
Interestingly, though.... for very fast rise and fall time signals the best oscilloscopes are still strictly analog, with the inputs directly driving the deflection plates of the CRT without intervening circuitry.
But you don't have to use an oscilloscope to make an accurate power determination, because you can channel all of the energy in the spikes into a resistive load which will then warm up by Joule heating. This warmup can be measured very precisely and accurately indeed, if one is serious enough. Thus you get around all sampling artefacts caused by not being able to see really highfrequency components on the DSO, at whatever sample rate/interval it uses.

Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #947 on: May 31, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »
aha @tinselkoala.calorometry yes but, like rossi calorometry,or any calorometry its vulnerable to skeptic attack due to heat losses,especialy wen we are dealing with a small COPs or whatevers left over to measure after circuitry losses.i propose a different and much more efficient way to measure with 80% efficiency and skep-proof,the electrochemical way,electrolysis of h2o,many electrolysis cells in series to swallow up the massive back-emf voltage,and subsequent evaluation of total volume oxygen produced versus consumed in the single(1.5v) NiMH cell that powers the circuit.if the ratio is larger then bang,nobody can argue results.wat u think?

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #947 on: May 31, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #948 on: May 31, 2013, 08:57:19 PM »
p.s. In my above example of verifying over or underunity effects the nimh cell has to be totaly drained first then charged up with a known amount of coulombs of charge as a reference thus if you charge up with 1000 coulombs and receive 15000 coulombs worth of O2 bangbaddabing,nobody can argue overunity.the goal is to as efficently as possible store ALL of the bak-emf power and showcase it.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #949 on: June 01, 2013, 10:56:46 AM »
Now that we understand the significance of crossing the 0 ref line, I decided to go back to the old demonstration boards with an additional winding on the toroid.
 
Sure enough, I detected the crossing of the 0 ref line by the Output Voltage!  This gave rise to very low Output Power or even negative   However, many LEDs can be lighted brightly.  Shall investigate this more.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #949 on: June 01, 2013, 10:56:46 AM »
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Offline ingyenenergiagep

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #950 on: June 01, 2013, 11:30:40 AM »
Use the inductive spikes in the battery again:


Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #951 on: June 01, 2013, 03:41:47 PM »
you can try charge a large series of many bats DIRECTLY from the bakspike yes,remember the bakspike is many times more voltage than 4ward spike and many times less current than 4ward spike thus we have to capture as much of its POWER(VI) as possible,seperately from the power source(single 1.5v cell).then when power source runs flat we take all the series recharged(all seperate 1.5v same size) cells and put them all into parallel and then compare if its now more TOTAL power captured than spent by source. 

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #951 on: June 01, 2013, 03:41:47 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #952 on: June 01, 2013, 04:03:08 PM »
in other words,my scientific angle here is to capture and then store the accumulated totality of any excess overunity power BEFORE re-using it because if you use it while generating it you will be losing valuable power thru downstep transformers,l.e.d.s,bla bla bla.i bring into question the amount of power lost at the rectifier/diode itself even,probably enormous losses there.

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #953 on: June 01, 2013, 05:07:10 PM »
the back emf spike off any inductor is many times faster than any forward oscillation spike,how can anybody accurately assess the totality of power of this backspike?it happens so fast that it screw-hysterises any measuring meter im sure.its absolutely essential to accurately asses the total wattage of each spike to get a clear picture of totality of spikes no?possible with todays scopes?

I don't know that your statements about the back spike are really of concern when making measurements on a  joule thief circuit with a LED connected as a load. The LED limits the back spike peak amplitudes to the forward voltage drop of the LED, and the frequency of operation is relatively low, so these spikes appear to be readily measurable with even a lower end scope. If you are not referring to a joule thief circuit with a LED as a load, then it could well be a different scenario depending on circuit specifics. Of course a lower end scope will not be as accurate as a higher end scope overall, but as long as any given scope is used within its particular limitations and the scope is calibrated correctly, the measurements should be suitable for getting a reasonable idea of the efficiency of a joule thief circuit with a LED load.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #953 on: June 01, 2013, 05:07:10 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #954 on: June 01, 2013, 05:33:09 PM »
Now that we understand the significance of crossing the 0 ref line, I decided to go back to the old demonstration boards with an additional winding on the toroid.
Sure enough, I detected the crossing of the 0 ref line by the Output Voltage!  This gave rise to very low Output Power or even negative   However, many LEDs can be lighted brightly.  Shall investigate this more.

Hi Lawrence, I am not so sure that you do fully understand the significance of zero crossings. Zero crossings are normal with any AC waveform, but such zero crossings in no way necessarily suggest that there is anything unusual going on. I think your biggest issue to date is that you are sometimes attempting to draw conclusions about different things that you see without first trying to take steps to fully understand what is happening. Adding a secondary winding will cause you to measure an AC waveform with zero crossings from the secondary winding, but a LED will only conduct current in one direction, so one half of the AC waveform will cause next to no power consumption in a LED. Not sure if you are using a LED or LEDs as a load?

Some things that you seem to be seeing as unusual, are really just very ordinary things which are easily understandable and explainable by someone with even just a basic electronics background. For example electrical noise pickup in any electronics circuit from surrounding EM fields and through connecting wiring is completely common and ordinary, and anyone with even just a little experience in making measurements on AC electronic circuits will be aware of this, and will take steps to account for this if necessary in their measurements. I think you will be much better off in situations if you think you are seeing something unusual, to just provide a clear explanation of what you are doing and provide a circuit diagram if necessary, and others with some electronics knowledge and experience can help explain what is going on, or suggest steps you can take to better understand what is really going on.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #955 on: June 01, 2013, 05:45:23 PM »
aha @tinselkoala.calorometry yes but, like rossi calorometry,or any calorometry its vulnerable to skeptic attack due to heat losses,especialy wen we are dealing with a small COPs or whatevers left over to measure after circuitry losses.i propose a different and much more efficient way to measure with 80% efficiency and skep-proof,the electrochemical way,electrolysis of h2o,many electrolysis cells in series to swallow up the massive back-emf voltage,and subsequent evaluation of total volume oxygen produced versus consumed in the single(1.5v) NiMH cell that powers the circuit.if the ratio is larger then bang,nobody can argue results.wat u think?
I think it's an interesting idea, but....
Can you show any outside references, like in peer-reviewed literature, that shows your electrolysis power measurement method being used and compared to some other power measurement method for concurrent validity?
I can do so if necessary, for the Joule heating and bolometric and other conventional power measurement systems. If you can show an electrolysis power measuring system that agrees with other methods that I know and trust, and is easy to perform, I'd be happy to add it to my arsenal of measurement procedures. I'm not interested in starting an experimental program to examine and develop your idea, though.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #955 on: June 01, 2013, 05:45:23 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #956 on: June 01, 2013, 05:47:30 PM »
p.s. In my above example of verifying over or underunity effects the nimh cell has to be totaly drained first then charged up with a known amount of coulombs of charge as a reference thus if you charge up with 1000 coulombs and receive 15000 coulombs worth of O2 bangbaddabing,nobody can argue overunity.the goal is to as efficently as possible store ALL of the bak-emf power and showcase it.
I'd love to see you put 1000 Coulombs of charge into a NiMH battery and get 15000 Coulombs worth of O2 (whatever that means) back out of it. Badabing.

Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #957 on: June 01, 2013, 06:44:15 PM »
@void im refering to any attempt to demonstrate more power from a bakspike than an inspike on any suitably designed inductor,not necesarily the joule thief but if you say,like tinselkoala says, that ther are scopes that can accurately determine the entire power magnitude of each spike then thats interesting.i dont know if it would be interesting to the skeps tho who demand 3dimensional evidence,eg self-looped systems but my point is that to power and recharge a single system at same time incurs dramatic losses,eg.an l.e.d. for example is only about ten percent efficient,the rest is unnecesarily wasted heat inside the l.e.d pn junction.thus my suggestion for 2 seperate stages 1)total discharge of power source and 2)recapture of all and above what was released at power source.the circuit must be designed solely for this optimum 'upstep'of totality of power at maximum posible efficiency. You have to throw out all l.e.d,s,all resistances,anything that would dissipate power between source and capture.

Offline profitis

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #958 on: June 01, 2013, 07:22:22 PM »
@tinselkoala,a skep can argue a scope down on almost any theory,eg,tampering,leakage from the power source OF the scope etc..the public dont even know what a scope is or how it works.you can use a series of totaly flat seperate(1.5v)rechargable batteries instead of electrolysis units then afterwards line them up into parallel,then measure the coulombs/volts totality.every single electron from your bakspike must deposit an atom of NiO2(nickel oxide) and an atom of H2(hydrogen) inside evry one of your series recipient cells,there is no way round this(faradays law),so if your bakspike is 100volts you must collect that power in about 50 series bats,allowing a nice 2volts to suitably recharge each dead(1.5v) bat.btw,what kind of voltages does one get on a average bakspike? 

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #959 on: June 01, 2013, 07:23:07 PM »
@void im refering to any attempt to demonstrate more power from a bakspike than an inspike on any suitably designed inductor,not necesarily the joule thief but if you say,like tinselkoala says, that ther are scopes that can accurately determine the entire power magnitude of each spike then thats interesting.i dont know if it would be interesting to the skeps tho who demand 3dimensional evidence,eg self-looped systems but my point is that to power and recharge a single system at same time incurs dramatic losses,eg.an l.e.d. for example is only about ten percent efficient,the rest is unnecesarily wasted heat inside the l.e.d pn junction.thus my suggestion for 2 seperate stages 1)total discharge of power source and 2)recapture of all and above what was released at power source.the circuit must be designed solely for this optimum 'upstep'of totality of power at maximum posible efficiency. You have to throw out all l.e.d,s,all resistances,anything that would dissipate power between source and capture.

Hi profitis. When I was saying you can use a scope, I meant specifically with a joule thief circuit with a LED load, as this thread is about making power measurements on joule thief circuits. As for LEDs not being very efficient, I don't believe that is really a factor as what we are concerned with regarding power dissipation in the LED is the voltage across the LED and the current through the LED at any instant in time. Whether that power is dissipated as heat or light makes no difference from a power consumption point of view.

Maybe things don't have to be too overly complicated to do what you want to do, however.
For other types of circuit setups, you could use a large valued capacitor of a known (accurately measured) capacitance value as a input power source, and use the back spikes from your inductor to charge another capacitor with known capacitance value (again, accurately measured) as a load, but there are drawbacks to this. It is not so easy to make accurate measurements on very large values of capacitance, and you would need high quality capacitors that have a minimal amount of leakage resistance. Also, you would need to use a very high speed diode to capture the back spikes to the load capacitor, and there is going to be power consumption in this diode. However, if there really is any significant amount of excess energy being delivered to the load capacitor, the power losses in the output rectifier diode may not be overly significant. It would depend on your exact setup however.

If you use the back spikes to charge a load battery from an input battery while at the same time powering some constant load, then you could maybe just keep swapping the batteries every so often and see if you can get the circuit to power the constant load much longer than you could with just using the two batteries not using the back spike charging and battery swapping method. If you can power the load at some given amount of power much longer with the battery swapping and back spike charging method than what you can get with just the two batteries alone, then that might be a fairly easy way to indicate that you are getting excess energy produced beyond what the batteries themselves have stored in them. This may actually prove a bit tricky however, as you would need some way to make sure the batteries in the comparison tests are charged to very close to the same amount of charge at the start of the tests, and I am not sure if there is any reliable way to determine that.

 

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