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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 453029 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2012, 07:00:20 AM »
Fausto:

I can give you a generic answer and then you or someone else can punch in the numbers.  I don't know the coil specifics myself.  The Hyperphysics web site has the formula for determining the inductance of an air-core coil based on the number of turns and the dimensions of the coil.  That formula is created by using calculus and doing a derivation.  So that is your starting point.

Then when you drop the big rotating magnet inside the coil it is likely doing two things.  As it rotates it generates EMF in the coil.  At the same time it may increase the inductance because it may offer some magnetic domains that can flip - i.e.; increased permeability.

The other parameters of interest are the resistance of the coil and the output resistance of the battery source.  The internal resistance of the battery source is probably negligible and can be ignored.

To keep it simple you can ignore the rotating magnet for starters.  All you need is the coil resistance and to punch in the numbers into the formula on the Hyperphysics web site.

Quote
I don't think 270 volts will pass even 5 mili-amps of current.

You sentence above is not well worded.  May I suggest that you look up "RL circuit" on the Hyperphysics web site or on Wikipedia.

MileHigh



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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2012, 07:00:20 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2012, 07:27:21 AM »
Fausto:

I want to address this issue very seriously.

Quote
I have much more respect for those that SHOW work and not only talk.

I see that comment mentioned all the time by many people and I never say anything but this time I will say something.  I also noted you made some sort of comment a few days ago like "I have to go back to WORK on the bench" or something like that.

The implicit message is that you disrespect people that comment but don't show any experiments.  The other implicit message is that you can ignore the knowledge of people that aren't actively doing bench work.  It's almost like it's an excuse to feel justified in ignoring things that you don't want to hear.

For me personally, it's been more than 20 years since I worked on a bench for real work, to make a living.  What I can tell you in all seriousness is that even after 20 years, when it comes to working on a bench,  I could spin circles around you with my eyes closed.  That's an expression in English that you probably know, it means that my skills on a bench are excellent, they are far beyond your current level of understanding.  I could also spin circles around John Bedini and Joe Newman.  If you don't believe me just ask TK and Poynt99.  They can tell you what my bench skills are just from reading what I have posted over the past four years.

Don't underestimate my bench skills whether it be with an analog scope, a digital scope, or a logic analyzer, or a frequency spectrum analyzer.  I know what I am talking about, but at the same time I am fully aware that there are limitations when you don't have the equipment in front of you.  However, for the majority of cases, I am just fine commenting on what I see and my analysis is correct and accurate.  What you are doing on your bench now, I was doing similar things more than 30 years ago.

MileHigh

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2012, 08:47:41 AM »
Another file to confirm that producing overunity devices is now a piece of cake.


This file used the DC Power Supply.  The DC Power Supply Voltage was increased from 0 V to light the LED to an acceptable brightness.  In this case, the DC Power Supply Voltage reading was 0.5 V.


The Output Voltage frequency was allowed to increase to 3 KHz before the oscilloscope readings were taken.


Enjoy and Bless the Almighty.  Replications are welcome.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2012, 08:47:41 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2012, 09:54:42 AM »
Are you even reading my posts?

You _cannot_ have this circuit connected to a power supply or ANY mains-connected instrument while you are evaluating it, especially a power supply. Even your scope reference leads must be isolated from each other and from the mains and Earth grounds.

You _cannot_ use the power supply's meter readings as data.

That is, if you care for accuracy at all.



Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »
Are you even reading my posts?

You _cannot_ have this circuit connected to a power supply or ANY mains-connected instrument while you are evaluating it, especially a power supply. Even your scope reference leads must be isolated from each other and from the mains and Earth grounds.

You _cannot_ use the power supply's meter readings as data.

That is, if you care for accuracy at all.
I let the top Universities worry about accuracy.  The Atten Scope has its limitations.  It also gives the top Universities an excuse to get involved.  They want to look good and helpful.  Any indication of overunity is acceptable to me.  A 6.x value is more than good enough for me.  Let the Universities worry about the values after the decimal point.
I shall do "indication" experiments.  Give room for others to shine.  You can shine too.  You probably can get access to better DSO than the Atten.  If you desire, I can send you one of the oscilloscope-test-ready boards.  In that way, you do not need to raise objections and guess what I may do wrong all the time.
 

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2012, 03:04:39 PM »

 When I tell you that the setup that Joe Newman demonstrated is of no significance ....

MileHigh


Again you misappropriated that Newman can run his Motor 3 to 10 times longer on the same charge
of the batteries !

So there is his overunity.

Just use accumulator packs, charge them up via solar energy, and put a normal 10 Watts DC motor on
it and then compare it to the big Newman motor.

Newman´s motor will run the same 10 Watts mechanical  load much longer than the standrad 10 Watts DC motor,
until the accumulator packs are discharged !


Regards, Stefan.
 

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2012, 03:08:02 PM »
P.S: Fast chopping of the input current and reusing the BackEMF of the coils always helps in motors to
reduce Lenz law.

So if you build a motor keep this mind.

Don´t use straight DC but a fast chopped DC input and reuse the BackEMF generated from the coils
to recharge your batteries.

For the same mechanical output power you need then to apply more voltage but you also will
get more BackEMF power this way, the higher the input voltage is.


Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2012, 03:08:02 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2012, 04:40:21 PM »
I let the top Universities worry about accuracy.
So you do not care if your results and reports are accurate? Astounding.
Quote
The Atten Scope has its limitations.  It also gives the top Universities an excuse to get involved.  They want to look good and helpful.  Any indication of overunity is acceptable to me.
Even if it's wrong, and due to your incorrect measurements??
Quote
A 6.x value is more than good enough for me.  Let the Universities worry about the values after the decimal point.
Lawrence, what are you thinking? YOU must be worried about whether your extraordinary claims are true or not, yes? You don't even care if you are accurate, you've already decided that you are right..... even though I've pointed out many things you have been doing wrong..... What are you thinking? ???
Quote
I shall do "indication" experiments.  Give room for others to shine.  You can shine too.  You probably can get access to better DSO than the Atten.  If you desire, I can send you one of the oscilloscope-test-ready boards.  In that way, you do not need to raise objections and guess what I may do wrong all the time.
Lawrence..... have you been reading my posts?

I have JTs sitting here in front of me that have the exact same circuit as your boards, and I have other units that FAR OUTPERFORM those, both in terms of instantaneous output power, and low voltage/current input requirements, thanks to groundloop and gadgetmall and the other builders who DO care about accuracy and correct measurements. You do not need to send me anything except what I've asked you for:
++The instruction/owner's manual for your scope.++
++The _exact_ circuit schematic you are using, ONE circuit, including the positioning of ALL measurement probe leads, ground wires, power supply connections etc.++

I will continue to help you.... I am interested in preventing you from falling on your face in public.... so once again I recommend strongly that you BACK OFF and be completely sure.... in a REAL SCIENTIFIC SENSE, not a faith sense.... that your claims are correct. If you can't even prove them to a willing Koala over the internet, you will be wasting your time and money sending off your boards to your sacred "top Universities". If you do not want to take my advice, that is of course up to you. In that case, I will continue to challenge you on your claims, without being willing to help you refine them. The onus of proof is ON YOU. We can work together in the interests of determining the real truth, or you can work alone..... but you will still need to find the truth, one way or the other.

I think you will find that "top Universities" have what they might call a "crackpot file". Are you a cracked pot, that leaks and is so brittle that it will shatter at the first challenge, or are you sound and strong, ringing like a bell with clarity and resonance when you are tested with the hammer? Into which file should you be placed, the "crackpot" file, or the file of continuing interest and cooperation? It's up to you..... and we all know to which pile you've been assigned in the past.

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2012, 04:58:07 PM »
@MH


I asked a question and you are in purpose not answering. I think I know why, it is because with 5ma of power you are not going to explain his motor anymore. All the calculations you did for power is useless in this case.


You cannot explain that motor pumping water with 5ma. His coil has an huge inductance. You know that very well.


Now, for the sake of science, which is why I brought that example to this forum, I am trying to say something important here very relevant to Joule Thief.


The amount of input power to a coil has nothing to do with the amount of magnetic field created. Simple. You cannot change that.


This is extremely important to understand now how things are indeed working and how a coil can give you free energy.


I have no interest in convert you to believe in OU or anyone BUT we must look at the science with open eyes. Running a motor that big is indeed by sheer voltage, specially when he is using physical switching.


The battery are not giving amps of output, I really don't see how you or anyone will show the opposite. I small motor with a few hundred feet of wire, sure, but a huge motor with probably miles of wire, no.


The resistance alone on that motor size will be in hundreds of kilo ohms. Just turn on and off to the coil is a challenge all by itself, the arcing, the thousands of volts created.


You are ignoring those important facts which is CRUCIAL for us to understand truly what is going on in joule thief. The 1911 book explains at the university level what is going on, so don't read it, continue blind for all that cares.


For those that care, look into the induction laws and scale it to the size of Newman's motor (which Tesla obviously dealt with) and you will see what I am talking about.


With kilo ohms the maximum current you can get from those batteries would be what?  mili-amps. The magnetic field created is obviously huge since it is spinning his motor really fast and as he add voltage it accelerates tremendously while pumping water.


That one evidence alone shows that his motor is running in voltage and miserable amount of mili-amps.


Now, you might ignore my facts here presented, but I am sure others are reading and listening and you once for all without explanations about how this works.




If anyone has real evidence to explain that motor taking in consideration the physical dimensions, not just theoretical crap, calculate and see for yourself.

Fausto.



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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2012, 04:58:07 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »
Fausto:

I won't be available much for a few days.  What evidence do you have for stating that the big Newman motor draws only milliamps?  If it's just what Joe claims then I need more evidence.   Are there any clips or links showing properly done measurements on one of these devices?

I answered your question, but I don't have the information for the number of turns, the diameter of the coil, the length of the coil.  That will give you the inductance.

Quote
The amount of input power to a coil has nothing to do with the amount of magnetic field created. Simple. You cannot change that.

For starters, the amount of magnetic field created has to do with the current flow through the coil and the number of turns.  You should know this.   After a certain point in working with electronics you have to be able to use the terms and concepts properly.

The amount of current through a coil and the number of turns and the permeability of the medium always determines the magnetic field created.  That's something that nobody can change.

Quote
This is extremely important to understand now how things are indeed working and how a coil can give you free energy.

No, a coil cannot give you free energy.  I challenged you a few postings ago to make a simple experiment that shows your claim but you ignored it.  How about a scientific experiment to back up your claim?

Quote
Now, you might ignore my facts here presented, but I am sure others are reading and listening and you once for all without explanations about how this works.

Supposing I make a guess that the motor is consuming 50 watts of power and doing about 10 watts worth of mechanical work.  That seems reasonable to me.  Now, if you actually made measurements of the power consumption of the motor and the work required to lift X litres of water per second up a vertical displacement of about one meter then we have some sort of a basis for discussion.

My assumption right now is that we have no electrical input power measurements for the Newman motor and no measurements of the flow rate of the water and the vertical displacement.

So, if it's true that we are just guessing then why should your guess that it's over unity be any more valid than my guess that it's under unity?

Quote
not just theoretical crap

The "theoretical crap" will answer every single question about the Newman motor as demonstrated.  With the right measuring equipment you could analyze the operation of the motor and understand exactly how it works and everything would make perfect sense, I assure you.  Unfortunately I don't think that Joe Newman is capable of doing that.

MileHigh

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2012, 09:28:20 PM »
@MH,


now I see you starting to participate in a more elegant manner, thank you.


Very simple my speculation. In his motors in the past he uses miles and miles of copper wire for his motors. Right there I can speculate the resistance of his coil and by looking at his history and his motor size, I can safely say that that motor has miles of copper wire inside. Unless he has changed his ways of doing things.


He even measured the high voltage of over 1000 volts in his coils of that motor. That is a sign of high inductance and therefore lots of wires.


Now, if this assumption is correct, which I would think it is, I can also say his motor does not run in current, because at mili-amps he will not run that motor via conventional thinking.




So Mr Mile High, bare with me for a second, IF (big IF), IF his motor is indeed of extremely high inductance, would you agree that the current possible in flowing through it would be in mili-amps not amps? Specially with him physically having switches that arcs? So he is not running direct current, it is in worse case scenario, pulsed DC which in a coil with high inductance will resist most of the current flow on the first mili-seconds and develop a huge magnetic field that when collapses causes the arcing in thousands of volts.


If yes, how do you think his motor is spinning.


now, the theory of magnetic and electric induction is very clear (in the 1911 book of Charles Proteus Steinmetz) is dictating that the amount of magnetic flux will be proportional to the current and Inductance. Inductance will be proportional to the mass of the coil (or area). So say turns but that too simplistic, turns is really mass, more copper wire.


Longer the coil, bigger the magnetic field and less current can pass to the point where resistance will be the next barrier against current.


BUT, the magnetic field will still be tremendous for 270v and 1ma if you want. And that can move a ton of magnets attached to his shaft. I think his motor is just like the small ones he created in the past.




So we all agree he did not measure well things but it is very clear that my logic is pretty good and that is a challenge for conventional physics to explain. He is indeed cleverly and ineffectively using a huge coil to spin under higher voltage very limited by its resistance.


That one point is what I WANT you to understand, because I think you can study that and even help us. You are very smart but for some strange reason is not seeing the magnitude of my statement based ON SCIENCE.


It is correct to say that 1 mile of 1 ohm resistance wire will not have the same magnetic field as 10 miles of 1 ohm resistance wire under the same input power. The one with more mileage will have a much bigger magnetic field, if both are the same resistance.

This should be enough to light a bulb in your head.


[size=78%]Fausto.[/size]

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2012, 09:28:20 PM »
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Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2012, 11:16:26 PM »
Hi folks, Hi plengo, here is a Newman chart.

peace love light
tyson ;)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2012, 11:33:16 PM »
Fausto:

I am trying to encourage you to use your analytical skills to investigate Joe Newman's statements but unfortunately you are not taking the bait.  The best way to learn is to do the exploration yourself.

For starters, let's examine the Newman chart that Tyson just posted.  Everything on the left side where he equates current times the number of turns to give you one amp-turn is correct.

However, look at the right side of the chart.  He quotes the current times the volts and shows decreasing wattages as you increase the number of turns.  Why is he always quoting 10 volts?  Should the voltage change the more turns you have?  Have you ever questioned that part of the chart?   The right half if the chart is complete nonsense and doesn't even make any sense.  What is he talking about?  Is he talking about the resistive power dissipation of the coil?  If yes, that has nothing to do with the strength of the magnetic field generated by the coil.

It simply makes no sense to quote "volts x amps = watts" for a coil.   That's Joe Newman for you.  He either does not know what he is doing, or, he is intentionally deceiving his audience.

Back to the exploration....

MileHugh

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2012, 11:41:31 PM »
MH:


ignore Newman please. I never seen that chart, neither I read Newman's theories or books more than an allegorical story.


I am not taking anything form him, I am reading the physics books myself and the formulas are very clear. Magnetic strength is equated with area of the wire, simple. More wire to the same equivalent resistance is indeed more magnetic field.


If you scale that where it will end? I really would like you to think in this lines and help me and us.


What would you do if you could have a mega Tesla magnetic field for a few mili-amps? Would not that be amazing? The theory is very clear, more mass more magnetic field. The current is also important but not only. Voltage is even more important.


Off course things are not so easy, but it is true. I did the experiment myself. More wire for exact same input power is more magnetic field, as long as you keep the resistance the same.


Fausto.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2012, 12:10:50 AM »
Fausto:

Back to the exploration.  I will state it again, you should be doing this and not me.

The web page to calculate the inductance of a coil:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indsol.html#c1

For a coil length of 50 cm, radius 50 cm, with 1000 turns, (3.14 km wire length), air core, the inductance of the coil is 1.97 Henries.  I believe that is much less inductance than you were expecting.

Let's assume that Joe is using 12 gauge wire with a 3 mm diameter.  12 gauge wire has 0.1588 ohms resistance per 100 feet.  3.14 km is 1.95 miles.   1.95 miles is 10296 feet.

Therefore the resistance of the coil is (10296/100) x 0.1588 = 16.35 ohms.

So, what happens when you put 255 volts across the coil?

The time constant is L/R = 1.97/16.35 = 0.12 seconds.   So five time constants is 0.6 seconds.

Therefore after 0.6 seconds the giant coil could have 255/16.35 = 15.6 amperes of current flowing through it.  I don't think the alkaline AA batteries could put out 15.6 amperes.  I am guessing they start to strain around 7 amperes.

The rotating magnet can add some counter-EMF to reduce the current flow.  The giant rotating magnet might also increase the length of the time constant due to increased permeability to reduce the rate of increase in current flow.

That doesn't matter.  My conclusion is that you have always viewed the giant Newman motor with an emotional reaction and you never tried to do some very basic calculations to see what the results would be like.  That was a huge mistake on your part.   It seems pretty apparent to me that a bunch of AA cells in series can easily power the giant strange "Newman motor."  In reality the Newman motor is just an ordinary pulse motor that just happens to be so big that you have to move it around on the back of a pickup truck.   You pump somewhere between 50 and 200 watts into it, and it does between 10 and 20 watts of mechanical work to pump water.

Can you see how easy that was Fausto?  It's pretty clear to me that your assumptions were way off.  The mistake was to never try to model the motor and make some basic calculations.

Finally, in the chance that you don't understand the "time constant" references then I suggest that you go and study.  Every single pulse motor you will ever build has a time constant and it is critical to understanding how the motor works.  Without that level of understanding it's like you are flying blind.

MileHigh

 

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