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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 492206 times)

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #885 on: May 18, 2013, 02:25:42 PM »
I took the Atten to the living room - far away from any seen electrical appliances.  The spikes are still there - with NO power supply.
When I simply shorted the probe or connect a 1 or a 100 ohm resistor across, the spikes disappeared.  It appears that the spikes are a property of the Boards.

Hi Lawrence. It is also possible that electrical noise from your scope's internal power supply is the source of the noise pulses, but your Atten scopes are made by Siglent, and your Atten scopes are very similar to my Siglent scope and I don't seem to have a problem with picking up noise pulses from my scope's internal power supply, so I am not sure what is causing those pulses that you are showing on your channel 2 trace with no power applied to your circuit. Unless the model of scopes you are using have a different power supply type/arrangement than my scope has. Or you may be picking up electrical noise into your scope from your AC power outlet when you plug in your scope, but I don't really know what is causing those apparent noise pulses that are showing in your scope trace with no power applied to your board. Does your other scope show the exact same sort of pulses with no power applied to your board? Do you have access to a different make of scope that you can do a comparison test with, with no power applied to the board?

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #885 on: May 18, 2013, 02:25:42 PM »

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #886 on: May 18, 2013, 03:27:20 PM »
I have attached a scope shot showing the voltage (yellow trace) and current (blue trace) input traces with my super cap now at 368mV. You can see that the current waveform still looks about the same overall, but electrical noise is now starting to be a significant factor, as the current waveform is getting down very close to the noise level. As you can see though, my joule thief circuit doesn't seem to have the kind of noise pulses on the current waveform that Lawrence shows in his input current scope shots for his boards, even at this very low input voltage. The LED is glowing fairly dimly now, and the circuit will stop oscillating when the input voltage drops a bit further. It seems my joule thief circuit as it is now will oscillate down to about 0.36V or so. The frequency measurements shown in the scope shots are not correct. The frequency measurement routines in the scope do not seem to work very well unless it is a fairly simple and clean waveform. The actual oscillation frequency is around 323kHz at this input voltage.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #887 on: May 18, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »
 
Lawrence, Void's comment about sources of noise in the environment is important. "Noise" represents power, wasted and radiated power that is all around us at all times, except in very carefully designed and built "Faraday cages" or screen rooms. I think I've shown that the JT circuit we are using makes a great receiver for this kind of power in the environment, and if there is a lot of it, it can even light up the LED brilliantly with no battery or external power supply to the board. Your boards, with their loose layout and long wire lengths and other build features, will probably be even more susceptible to environmental pickup. Your latest post above seems to be showing that the board is picking up enough power from the environment to oscillate a little bit, or at least to amplify the oscillations it is detecting. (Also note that some of this power can be coming in thru common instrument and power supply ground leads.)
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73XRA1qaPYM
 
 I think it would be very interesting to "scan" your local environment with a good RF spectrum analyzer. Even a simple Tri-Field Meter could give you some idea of your RF, electric and magnetic field environment.
 
 Picking up and using wasted power from the environment is a great and good thing. If you can light an LED brilliantly off of the "electrosmog", that is nearly as good as a real "forever light", in my opinion. Even though the electrosmog is mostly man-made and is wasted power from conventional sources, this is very close to the "harnessing the wheelworks of Nature" that Tesla dreamed of doing. Now if you could only tune into some ambient power that _wasn't_ already man-made, that would be the big prize, the true Divine Wind (rather than the divine "passing of wind" that we've accomplished so far in this thread.)
 

@TK,
 
That is a very interesting video.   Your JT picked up enough energy to light up the LED brightly.  I believe that in Zhou’s shop, the “noise” seemed to be much more.  The shop is in the midst of over a thousand electronics shops.
*** I shall do the tests on Board 118 and 119 at home first and then take them to Zhou's Shop and repeat.  If the "noise" is indeed much higher, we may have a possible explanation of the "extra energy".
 
In Hong Kong, there is no escape from “electrosmog”.  I am not familiar with “scan” techniques.  There was a story about a person in Hong Kong who powered his home with such “electrosmog” energy.  He was then hired by the Hong Kong Electric Company and the secret was never disclosed.
 
I would not rule out the possibility that the Zhou Boards happen to pick up such “electrosmog” energy.  This is still a form of “bring-in” or “lead-out” energy from the environment.
 
I shall let all the testers know about your video.  More research needs to be done in this area.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #887 on: May 18, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #888 on: May 18, 2013, 04:31:57 PM »
I would not rule out the possibility that the Zhou Boards happen to pick up such “electrosmog” energy.  This is still a form of “bring-in” or “lead-out” energy from the environment.

Hi Lawrence. Well, I think it is probably not really anything too unusual going on there. A joule thief circuit contains a transistor, and a small signal transistor of this type acts as a sensitive amplifier, and with enough induced voltage in the circuit from external electrical noise pickup from electrical equipment through wiring or from radiated electromagnetic signals (it doesn't take that much), the sensitive transistor can be activated enough to amplify the noise signal and oscillate a bit. The coil windings on the toroid as well as wiring on your boards will act like antennas which can pick up any surrounding electromagnetic fields and convert that to an electrical voltage. The toroid windings can probably convert even very weak electromagnetic fields to a measurable voltage signal, much like a sensitive radio receiver with a transistor amplifier stage to boost the signal a bit.


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #889 on: May 18, 2013, 04:36:00 PM »
Hi Lawrence. It is also possible that electrical noise from your scope's internal power supply is the source of the noise pulses, but your Atten scopes are made by Siglent, and your Atten scopes are very similar to my Siglent scope and I don't seem to have a problem with picking up noise pulses from my scope's internal power supply, so I am not sure what is causing those pulses that you are showing on your channel 2 trace with no power applied to your circuit. Unless the model of scopes you are using have a different power supply type/arrangement than my scope has. Or you may be picking up electrical noise into your scope from your AC power outlet when you plug in your scope, but I don't really know what is causing those apparent noise pulses that are showing in your scope trace with no power applied to your board. Does your other scope show the exact same sort of pulses with no power applied to your board? Do you have access to a different make of scope that you can do a comparison test with, with no power applied to the board?

See TK's Video.  His JT (based on my circuit diagram) lighted brightly with no power supply.  He attributed this to the board picking up "electrosmog" energy.  This explanation makes sense.....

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #889 on: May 18, 2013, 04:36:00 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #890 on: May 18, 2013, 04:39:32 PM »
*** I shall do the tests on Board 118 and 119 at home first and then take them to Zhou's Shop and repeat.  If the "noise" is indeed much higher, we may have a possible explanation of the "extra energy".

Hi Lawrence. You do not need to send any boards to me for testing if what you have been interpreting as unusual results is really just due to electrical noise pickup. However I can still test some boards for you if you like, if you want to have a comparison of my measurements compared to your measurements.

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #891 on: May 18, 2013, 04:45:19 PM »

See TK's Video.  His JT (based on my circuit diagram) lighted brightly with no power supply.  He attributed this to the board picking up "electrosmog" energy.  This explanation makes sense.....

Yes, this is what I have been saying. Electrical noise in a circuit can have many causes, including EM radiation. The electrical noise doesn't always come directly through wiring, but more often is induced from EM fields produced by various types of electronics equipment. Switching power supplies and computers, etc.,  produce a lot of electrical noise, and this noise gets induced in circuits and scope probes via the EM fields surrounding this type of equipment, but this electrical noise can also get picked up through electrical wiring such as an AC power cord or power supply wires, for example.
 
In TK's example, he is holding the board in close proximity to a very strong EM field, but even a weak EM field could potentially induce enough voltage in your circuit to cause the sensitive transistor to activate a little bit. You do not even need a transistor to get this sort of effect. I have done tests where I found I can hold one lead of a LED in my finger tips and touch the other lead of the LED to a terminal on my DC power supply with the DC power supply switched off, and the LED lights dimly. This is due to some voltage from the AC line and transformer in the DC power supply coupling into the power supply wiring, even though the power supply is switched off. The power supply still has to be plugged into the AC outlet for this to work this way however. Also, the LED I was testing with is a very sensitive type of LED, and it starts to light at currents as low as 15uA to 18uA or so.

Also, see my note in a previous reply (Reply #882 ) which I made a few posts ago about making sure to set both the scope probe switch multiplication factor setting and the scope channel probe multiplication factor setting to match. It seems that you didn't have this set to match in your input current waveform measurements?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #891 on: May 18, 2013, 04:45:19 PM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #892 on: May 18, 2013, 11:50:34 PM »
Yes, this is what I have been saying. Electrical noise in a circuit can have many causes, including EM radiation. The electrical noise doesn't always come directly through wiring, but more often is induced from EM fields produced by various types of electronics equipment. Switching power supplies and computers, etc.,  produce a lot of electrical noise, and this noise gets induced in circuits and scope probes via the EM fields surrounding this type of equipment, but this electrical noise can also get picked up through electrical wiring such as an AC power cord or power supply wires, for example.
*** Agreed.  But can we effectively use such energy?  Board 124 with the capacitor and twin timer suggests that such may be possible.  I think if you use your supercapacitor and a twin timer, you may be able to make a rechargeable AA Battery last much longer.  The addition of a small capacitor in parallel with the 1K Ohm resistor may help also.
 
In TK's example, he is holding the board in close proximity to a very strong EM field, but even a weak EM field could potentially induce enough voltage in your circuit to cause the sensitive transistor to activate a little bit. You do not even need a transistor to get this sort of effect. I have done tests where I found I can hold one lead of a LED in my finger tips and touch the other lead of the LED to a terminal on my DC power supply with the DC power supply switched off, and the LED lights dimly. This is due to some voltage from the AC line and transformer in the DC power supply coupling into the power supply wiring, even though the power supply is switched off. The power supply still has to be plugged into the AC outlet for this to work this way however. Also, the LED I was testing with is a very sensitive type of LED, and it starts to light at currents as low as 15uA to 18uA or so.
 
*** I have seen such "ghost lighting effects" also.

Also, see my note in a previous reply (Reply #882 ) which I made a few posts ago about making sure to set both the scope probe switch multiplication factor setting and the scope channel probe multiplication factor setting to match. It seems that you didn't have this set to match in your input current waveform measurements?
*** I usually set the scope and probes to x10.  I damaged one Atten over three years ago by setting all values to x1.  My student teams were on the learning curve.  All my posted results used x10 except during calibration.
The question is - can we design efficient circuits to use the electrical noise or electrosmog???  From the description of the neighbors of the Hong Kong Person who "rumored" to have mastered such technique, the house was full of wires, electrical equipment and antennas.....  The Zhou Board is unlikely to be the final and best design to capture and use such energy.  More research needed (at Universities with the appropriate equipment and experts?)
 
The TK video pointed to many new possibilities.....

Offline Void

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #893 on: May 19, 2013, 04:57:33 PM »
Agreed.  But can we effectively use such energy?  Board 124 with the capacitor and twin timer suggests that such may be possible.  I think if you use your supercapacitor and a twin timer, you may be able to make a rechargeable AA Battery last much longer.  The addition of a small capacitor in parallel with the 1K Ohm resistor may help also.

The question is - can we design efficient circuits to use the electrical noise or electrosmog???  From the description of the neighbors of the Hong Kong Person who "rumored" to have mastered such technique, the house was full of wires, electrical equipment and antennas.....  The Zhou Board is unlikely to be the final and best design to capture and use such energy.  More research needed (at Universities with the appropriate equipment and experts?)
 
The TK video pointed to many new possibilities.....

Yes, your experiments with the timer charging a capacitor seem worth investigating further. Does the timer circuit you are using have a relay output with isolated contacts?

You probably can use electro-smog as a source of energy, but the problem is that most of this EM radiation around us is fairly low power, and you can probably only use it to at best light a LED or make a very low power battery charger. Maybe if a person set up a big array of high gain antennas they might be able to pull in a bit more power.
If someone is able to pull in more power than just a little bit this way, then they may be drawing power inductively off the main power grid lines, which is probably illegal. :)

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #893 on: May 19, 2013, 04:57:33 PM »
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Offline forest

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #894 on: May 19, 2013, 08:19:38 PM »
I saw somewhere an article in russian with a circuit tapping radio waves from radio station and using it to power small load like 5-10W bulb (depending on the distance to the transmitter).
The point is that the only needed thing is to charge large electrolytic capacitor, then everything should work in close-loop system....can you design such circuit charging capacitor from radio waves ?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #895 on: May 20, 2013, 12:35:16 AM »
Yes, your experiments with the timer charging a capacitor seem worth investigating further. Does the timer circuit you are using have a relay output with isolated contacts?
*** The twin timer was bought from a local electronics component store.  No technical details or circuit diagrams were included.

You probably can use electro-smog as a source of energy, but the problem is that most of this EM radiation around us is fairly low power, and you can probably only use it to at best light a LED or make a very low power battery charger. Maybe if a person set up a big array of high gain antennas they might be able to pull in a bit more power.
If someone is able to pull in more power than just a little bit this way, then they may be drawing power inductively off the main power grid lines, which is probably illegal. :)
 
*** We are still at the infancy of such technology.  There are still many unknowns.  Some of the statements from experts may be false because they drew conclusions from their existing knowledge.  I still believe that no physics laws are violated if we use X amount of energy to "magnetize" a magnet and we can get Y units of work done.  Y can be greater than X because the material itself already has magnetic properties.

I sow seeds.  TK may have many negative comments but he also did some remarkable experiments that added to our understanding.  The fact that a JT can pick up electrosmog energy is definitely worth further research.  What is the best circuit and how much energy can be picked up?  Will the addition of capacitors in the circuit make a difference?
 
*** I believe much electrical energy is "wasted" especially in a factory type environment when one can see sparks, noise etc.  If such "wasted" energy can be picked up and used, we are not "stealing" from the electric companies....  In the traditional lighting systems, much energy is wasted as heat or radiated out without giving visible light.  If we can use such energy???

 
I firmly believe that if a system already has "random" energy, the use of X units to orientate such "random" energy may bring out Y units of useful energy.  Y can be greater than X.  The system does not need to be closed or return back to the initial state.  No Laws of thermodynamics are violated.....

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #895 on: May 20, 2013, 12:35:16 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #896 on: May 20, 2013, 07:40:52 AM »
The two boards 121 and 122 with Mr. Lau is still ON dimly.  Board 121 is the standard JT with a normal AA battery.  Board 122 has the capacitor but no timer.
 
I shall go to his place to check it out tomorrow.
 
Mr. Zhou has built the 2n2055 and his preliminary result is that the Input Power can be much higher than the "noise level" of 10mV.  I shall let him play with it for a few more days before picking it up.
 
It looks like the Boards are indeed "bringing-in" or "leading-out" some energy from the environment.  I do not know the exact mechanism yet.  It may be electrosmog or something else.  I shall encourage others to water, fertilize and harvast the seeds.....   It is a free World.  The testers can do whatever they feel like.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #897 on: May 20, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »
Try to analyze the strange Board 113.
 
Board 113 was the strange board withwaveform totally different from other Boards.  Previously, I just treat such Boards as reject.  Now on TK's advice, I keep them and try to analyze them.
 
Just show the strange waveforms first.  The first comparison of Board and connections appeared correct.
 
*** It looks like the best thing for me to do is to keep the Board.  Wait until I find the right person to debug.  I do not have the energy, skill and equipment to do a proper job.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #898 on: May 20, 2013, 03:10:31 PM »
Lawrence,

Board #113 seems to be running between 1MHz and 2 MHz. That is a big clue as to what is wrong/different. Most of your boards run in the low kHz correct?

Check the coil resistance and connections. You might have one half of the coil connected backwards (i.e. wrong polarity).

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #899 on: May 20, 2013, 04:13:18 PM »
Lawrence,

Board #113 seems to be running between 1MHz and 2 MHz. That is a big clue as to what is wrong/different. Most of your boards run in the low kHz correct?

Check the coil resistance and connections. You might have one half of the coil connected backwards (i.e. wrong polarity).

@poynt99,
 
Thank you for the tip.  Rather than taking Board 113 apart, I shall deliberately produce a board with the wrong toroidal winding.  But the crossing of the current on the Output side is very interesting.  LED was ON brightly with almost no Output (or negative Output) power.  Could this "wrong" connection be the "magic" we are looking for?

 

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