Language:
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.
 Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here: https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

Custom Search

### Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 561580 times)

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #870 on: May 17, 2013, 03:14:26 PM »
If the "ringing pulse" represents current crossing the 0 ref line, then we must have positive and negative power in the citcuit.  (Input Volotage is all positive.  Output Voltage and Output Current are all positive.)

What does that mean?  How can current flow forwards and backwards in a DC environment?

No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #871 on: May 17, 2013, 03:31:51 PM »
Hi Tinselkoala. My probes are oriented the same as I have shown in the schematic I posted previously. Yellow(Ch.1) is the input voltage waveform, and blue(ch.2) is the input current waveform. The input current waveform should not be inverted. Yes, I have both waveforms vertically set at the vertical center line. I like to set them that way.

Regarding the bandwidth limiting on channel 2, my scope turns this on automatically at low volts per division settings, and I am not able to turn it off. There seems to be some auto routine there that flips this on maybe as the signal gets a certain percentage of noise on it. My input current waveform is starting to get close to the noise level at this input voltage. I don't know what frequency the scope limits the bandwidth to when the BW Limit feature is turned on. The user manual for my scope seems to have been written by a grade four student. The PC interface software that comes with my scope also seems to have been written by the same grade four student. The scope itself however seems at least passable, so far.

Hmm. I've attached your schematic below, along with the schematic that the "rest of us" are using. Please note that your current probe is inverted from that which Lawrence and I are using, and presumably also that which .99 is using. This accounts for your positive readings where we are seeing negative readings. To avoid confusion, I suggest that we all use the same schematic, the same "names" for the probe connection locations, and to make it easy on Lawrence, I suggest that we use the one he has published and is using, with the setup that allows all four scope channels to be connected to the same "ground" reference point.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #872 on: May 17, 2013, 04:21:32 PM »
No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

*** The LED was ON all the time.  Some energy must be used.   Why would a "0.4V or less rechargeable AA battery" last 3 days???  Can there be an alternative explanation?

Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

We have to examine Board 124 - the one with the timer.  You said in your post that it will NOT last longer than Board 116.  Experiment so far has shown that it not only lasted longer but also brighter.

More research needed.   But if one assumes energy can be brought-in or lead-out, one can explain the experimental results immediately.  Obviously, you may assume that the extra energy comes from the timer power supply.  We need to do experiments to eliminate that.....

Much more to learn and experiment.  I sow seeds.  Others are encouraged to water, fertilize, harvast etc.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #873 on: May 17, 2013, 05:10:18 PM »

We have to examine Board 124 - the one with the timer.  You said in your post that it will NOT last longer than Board 116.  Experiment so far has shown that it not only lasted longer but also brighter.

My prediction was of course based on
1) having the exact same starting energy stored in the sources, which you have not shown and which is very unlikely;
2) being able to quantify and equate the light output in both cases, which you have resisted doing for months now;
3) assuring and showing that it is impossible for any power to be coming from the Timer Switching circuit or other outside sources, something else you have resisted doing for a long time.

Quote
More research needed.   But if one assumes energy can be brought-in or lead-out, one can explain the experimental results immediately.  Obviously, you may assume that the extra energy comes from the timer power supply.  We need to do experiments to eliminate that.....

Much more to learn and experiment.  I sow seeds.  Others are encouraged to water, fertilize, harvast etc.

You have wasted a lot of your own time, my time, and the time of hundreds of other people by your false claims based on the poor measurements and interpretations of them. If you had spent some time at the very beginning, to understand your instruments and how to use them, you might have been able to save a lot of this time and effort. It might not matter to YOU how other people waste their time, and I personally do this for my own edification and amusement so my own time isn't wasted -- and I am getting exactly what I expected from this program. But you have undoubtedly planted false hopes in some other people, and they have wasted their time and effort watering and fertilizing YOUR garden, and are harvesting nothing but frustration from it.

I've asked you several times before: You have distributed many boards, maybe over a hundred. Where are the reports from the testers to whom you have sent these boards? We have only .99's report... his _negative_ report that indicates that your measurements of that board were faulty. Where are the reports from all the other testers? Have you gotten any responses at all, negative or positive?

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #874 on: May 17, 2013, 05:32:46 PM »
If the "ringing pulse" represents current crossing the 0 ref line, then we must have positive
and negative power in the circuit.  (Input Volotage is all positive.  Output Voltage and Output
Current are all positive.)
What does that mean?  How can current flow forwards and backwards in a DC environment?
*** Look at the theoretical explanation again.  If there is a "hidden" pulsing source,
the above is possible.  That is Lead-out energy.  So long as there is crossing of the 0 reference line
- either the main Current or the spikes, there is lead-out energy.  Amen.
*** It is a matter of producing the circuit to achieve this crossing the 0 ref line behavior.
The Zhou Board is only one example.

No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

I would say I am not convinced that those many negative swings seen in Lawrence's input current waveforms do not indicate current flowing back to the power source during the negative swings. (As an aside, keep in mind that Lawrence has his ch. 2 probe oriented such that his current waveform is inverted on his scope display.) However, it is not established if Lawrence has his DC offset on his scope channels completely zeroed out now, as Lawrence didn't indicate if he tested the DC offset by setting to x1, 2mV/div, DC, and grounding the scope probe tips to the probe ground clips to view the DC offset, as I suggested to him in a previous post, so there could be some DC offset in Lawrence's current waveforms. However, if the DC offset is minimal, then his input current waveforms do seem to show about as many negative swings as positive swings, although they are damped, which if shown correctly should average out to a very low current draw overall. On the other hand, if there is some DC offset there that is skewing Lawrence's input current waveforms, then maybe the input current waveforms are actually much more positively offset than is indicated in Lawrence's scope shots. Once I receive those test boards from Lawrence, I can confirm if my measurements are similar to what Lawrence is showing or not. I will make sure to check for any DC offset on both channels before making any measurements.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #875 on: May 17, 2013, 05:45:28 PM »
How about putting a Schottky diode in series with the battery, and treating that battery-diode combo as a black-box "battery" source? Clearly, the diode will prevent any "reverse current" from reaching the battery. However, I think you will likely still see the same current waveforms as before,  including the zero-crossings that have been observed.
I have not tried this experiment myself, and since I don't see any zero-crossing to begin with it would be kind of useless for me to try it. But anyone who has a board that does make these zerocrossing current waveforms should probably try it, to see if the diode prevents the observed zero-crossings or not.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #876 on: May 17, 2013, 10:48:35 PM »
@Void,

Here are the results from Board 118 which will be sent to you for verification after all tests are done.  The Input Voltage from the DC Power Supply was again adjusted so that the LED was just ON.  CH2 (current) showed crossing 0 ref line with much "noise".  The "noise" was stretched out by varying the time scale.

The result was a pulsed waveform similar to Board 119.  However, in this case, there was some wavy on the 0 ref line.  The actual waveform on the noise was somewhat different.

I shall let you do the "correct calibration" etc.   Do not rely on my Atten and my skill to provide conclusive results.   I may not be doing all the right set up and I am waiting for the 4-CH Tektronics and the "experts" to help me to the verification in a few weeks time.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #877 on: May 17, 2013, 11:28:38 PM »

I've asked you several times before: You have distributed many boards, maybe over a hundred. Where are the reports from the testers to whom you have sent these boards? We have only .99's report... his _negative_ report that indicates that your measurements of that board were faulty. Where are the reports from all the other testers? Have you gotten any responses at all, negative or positive?

[/font]

@TK,

We are dealing with the Chinese mentality in Hong Kong and China.  Mr. Zhou was willing to show his picture but would not post on overunity.com.  Prof. Julia Tree in USA was willing to let me quote his to-be-confirmed results using the Student Laboratory oscilloscopes.  In his words: “The preliminary oscilloscope results indicated Output greater than Input but more research is required.  I am giving some of your boards to others for testing.”

A factory owner said: “Why should I post the results of my engineers free to the World?  If it does not work, why waste time posting?  If it works, it will be top-secret until the product is on the Market.  I am not interested in non-profit activities.”

A fellow researcher said:”What is the point of my posting?  Just look at the jeers you received.  If you are right, I do not get any credit.  In any case, your work has generated enough interest for people to pump extra resources.  I am looking forward to accessing the 4-CH Tektronics also. “

A retired electrical Engineer said: “I heard your presentation at least three times.  You are violating the Law of Conservation of Energy.  No oscillating circuit can generate energy from nothing.”

A retired electronics Professor said: “I got the boards.  There is much more vigorous research required to claim overunity.  You are one of the dozens in Hong Kong showing similar boards.  Good luck.”

When one sows seeds – what does the Bible say???

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #878 on: May 18, 2013, 01:47:17 AM »
Noise analysis on Board 80.

I now use the pdf file so as not to occupy too much screen space.  Note slide 2, 3 and 4 in particular.  They showed probes shorted, no Input Voltage and just enough Input Voltage to light the LED.

What is the source of the Noise?  Noise is present even when there is NO Input Power?

Shall put equipment to different parts of the house.  Use microwave as Faraday cage?

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #879 on: May 18, 2013, 03:48:42 AM »
Lawrence, it is entirely possible that your DC power supply is contributing to the noise in your signal.

I would like to see a scope trace of the power supply's output into a plain resistive load. If you set your power supply to 1.5 volts and use a 150 ohm and a 1 ohm resistor in series as the load, you will have I = V/R = 1.5/151 = just under 10 mA of current. You can then use the scope to look at the current in the 1 ohm resistor just as you have been doing with the JT boards.  Use wires that are as short as possible and solder the resistors together and to the wires to the power supply. Any noise that you see in the resulting scope trace will be coming from the power supply and/or the oscilloscope itself. It should take you about ten minutes to do this test, including waiting for the soldering iron to warm up.

By varying the value of the voltage setting or the larger resistor you can look at the noise level at several current output levels.

This is a "control" experiment, something that is in general lacking in the work of many free energy researchers. Doing experiments or demonstrations that illustrate your phenomenon of interest is all well and good; but designing the proper _control_ experiments to rule out hypotheses is a real art and is the key to the application of the scientific method itself.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #880 on: May 18, 2013, 04:17:44 AM »
Noise analysis on Board 80.

I now use the pdf file so as not to occupy too much screen space.  Note slide 2, 3 and 4 in particular.  They showed probes shorted, no Input Voltage and just enough Input Voltage to light the LED.

What is the source of the Noise?  Noise is present even when there is NO Input Power?

Shall put equipment to different parts of the house.  Use microwave as Faraday cage?

AARRGHH!
Slide 2 "probes shorted".... but you are displaying the channels at different voltage settings !!! You have bandwidth limiting set for one channel ! And once again your zero baselines are not on horizontal graticule markers. This test should be repeated with both channels set at the minimum V/div setting, BWL off, to get a baseline noise level for each channel, in addition to the noise seen when set in the measurement mode.

Yes, noise is present _always_ and to exclude it completely you will need more than a microwave oven "Faraday Cage". The openings needed for instrument probes or power supply cords will leak more energy than you would probably believe.

If you insist on showing scope shots from your inaccurate, imprecise and noisy Atten scopes, I insist that you set the trace baselines properly, or I will just stop looking at them altogether.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #881 on: May 18, 2013, 04:22:56 AM »
You have no idea how annoying it is for me to see that you STILL ARE NOT PLACING YOUR BASELINES DIRECTLY ON A HORIZONTAL GRATICULE LINE.

What part of this do you not understand, Lawrence? If I want to see what voltage levels your traces are ACTUALLY indicating, rather than simply looking at the numbers in boxes, I  must carefully see just how much offset from a reference line you have snuck in there, and then count divisions and add or subtract that little bit of imprecision in your adjustment EVERY TIME, when it would be a matter of an instant for you to set these important references accurately and properly to make it easier to interpret the voltage levels.

You will note that in all my videos showing scope shots, I always... ALWAYS.... indicate somehow where the zero baseline is and I ALWAYS try my best, parallax permitting, to place these references on a graticule line. I am using analog equipment that does not give me "numbers in boxes" so it would be nearly impossible to read an accurate voltage level if I did not do this. This is BASIC oscilloscope usage we are talking about here. Those colored lines have meaning, and scopes are hard enough to read as it is without you making it harder by "random" setting of the channel baselines.

Note especially the Trace 2 in the shot above. The eye sees where the horizontal graticule line is and wants to compare the scope trace with this line... but the real baseline is a bit below the graticule marker. This results in an optical illusion of sorts, where the eye thinks the trace is more negative than it really is. If the baseline was right on the graticule line like it should be, it would be immediately evident to the eye that this trace is quite symmetrical about the true zero line, as an inductive ring signature generally is.  The positioning of the channel baselines is Important and Has Effects on the Visual Interpretation of the traces, so please PLEASE stop setting these things randomly, or with the deliberate bias shown in the trace above.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #882 on: May 18, 2013, 04:51:29 AM »
Noise analysis on Board 80.

I now use the pdf file so as not to occupy too much screen space.  Note slide 2, 3 and 4 in particular.  They showed probes shorted, no Input Voltage and just enough Input Voltage to light the LED.

What is the source of the Noise?  Noise is present even when there is NO Input Power?

Shall put equipment to different parts of the house.  Use microwave as Faraday cage?

Hi Lawrence. Thanks for conducting those tests. The reason that I asked you to show the scope traces with the power turned off or disconnected, is because it is hard to interpret your scope input current traces without knowing what in those traces is actually due to external electrical noise getting into your circuit and probes. From the scope screen shot you posted where the power was turned off, I still see much of the same noise/pulses that we have been seeing in your recent input current scope shots. This seems to indicate that these pulses are coming from an external electrical noise source. Switching power supplies for electronics equipment such as laptops and desktop computers, and all sorts of other electronics equipment which use switching power supplies or which have internal digital circuitry, can generate noise pulses like that. Do you have a laptop or computer or other electronic equipment with external adaptor type AC plug-in switching power supplies operating anywhere near where you are doing your scope measurements? Laptops and computers and also their power supplies can certainly make electrical noise pulses like that, as wel as some other electronic equipment.  Not to worry though. When you send me your boards for testing I will be able to tell what is going on with your circuits and how much external electrical noise was a factor in your scope screen shots that you have been posting.

By the way, if you set the switch on your oscilloscope probe to x1, you also need to set the corresponding scope channel's  probe setting to x1 as well in your scope's channel settings menu, to match your scope probe switch setting. This makes the volts per division setting on your scope display match correctly for a x1 probe switch setting. If you have your scope probe switch set to x1, but you don't have your scope's channel setting also set to x1 (for example if it is set to x10 in the scope channel's probe setting), then your scope will display 20mV/div (and will also use this incorrect setting for voltage magnitude determination) when it should actually be displaying 2mV/div and determining voltage magnitudes based on 2mV/div. Could you have been doing this in your measurements? I am wondering why the current in many of your scope screen shots shows as being set to 20mV/div when at very low input voltages it seems to me that you would probably have to set to 2mV/div for the current measurements?

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #883 on: May 18, 2013, 06:33:43 AM »
Lawrence, it is entirely possible that your DC power supply is contributing to the noise in your signal.

@TK,

It is unlikely to be the DC Power supply.  I took the Atten to the living room - far away from any seen electrical appliances.  The spikes are still there - with NO power supply.

When I simply shorted the probe or connect a 1 or a 100 ohm resistor across, the spikes disappeared.  It appears that the spikes are a property of the Boards.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #884 on: May 18, 2013, 01:52:34 PM »
Lawrence, Void's comment about sources of noise in the environment is important. "Noise" represents power, wasted and radiated power that is all around us at all times, except in very carefully designed and built "Faraday cages" or screen rooms. I think I've shown that the JT circuit we are using makes a great receiver for this kind of power in the environment, and if there is a lot of it, it can even light up the LED brilliantly with no battery or external power supply to the board. Your boards, with their loose layout and long wire lengths and other build features, will probably be even more susceptible to environmental pickup. Your latest post above seems to be showing that the board is picking up enough power from the environment to oscillate a little bit, or at least to amplify the oscillations it is detecting. (Also note that some of this power can be coming in thru common instrument and power supply ground leads.)