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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 578373 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #600 on: April 14, 2013, 11:59:07 PM »
Quote from: picowatt on April 14, 2013, 10:09:24 PM
.99,

As for Q on time, no, I have never considered that an issue because of the averaging.  Bill had asked about the duty cycle and the post I think you are referring to is my response to his question.

PW
You are now ok then with the Pout computation? My concern was that averaging was not being applied. As far as the Pout values being all over the map, I am pretty sure it is a combination of scope offset and inductive reactance between the scope probe tip and reference.
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #601 on: April 15, 2013, 01:03:50 AM »
Quote from: picowatt on April 14, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
.99,

I now believe it is correct. 
 
I stared at it too long yesterday and in the midst of it all forgot that in the end, Pin(avg) is removed from Pout(avg) when the net power calculation is performed. 

PW

@All
 
Now that both the Input and Output calculations on the Spreadsheet are correct.  We should give poynt99 time to hook up his 4-CH DSO and show us the resulting waveforms.  He can start with low Input barely lighting the LED and slowly work up to 1.5V.  Approximately 5 points will do.  He can also post the raw data and I shall be happy to do the spreadsheet analysis for him.  His 4-CH scope will resolve the problem of measuring simultaneous Input and Output.  (Which cannot be resolved with two separate 2-CH DSOs.)
 
The price of the Atten is US$200.  The price of a 4-CH Tektronics is over US$2,500.  With the new excitement in Hong Kong and ShenZhen, that sum may not post an absolute roadblock.  In any case, the Universities will have a first crack at it.  Poynt99's posts will help to get that happen. 
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #602 on: April 16, 2013, 01:52:25 AM »
A piece of Good News to share.
 
It looks like UNI-T has a 4-CH DSO that retails for less than USD 1,000.  Mr. Zhou is a dealer for UNI-T.  He does not carry that product for the moment as there are few customers requesting it.
 
There is a strong possibility that we can cntact UNI-T manufacturer and get them excited about the Lead-out Energy and why that a 4-CH DSO may turn out to be a winner.
 
Someone can contact Tektronics and do similar presentations.  Then we shall have experts from the manufacturers doing the tests.  There will be no questions on their capability in doing the calibration, setup and analysis.  The posted OU results will be confirmed beyond any shadow of doubt.  The Floodgate for research and development for Lead-out Energy technology is now open.  When will the water "gush" gout???
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #603 on: April 16, 2013, 04:11:47 AM »
Quote from: ltseung888 on April 12, 2013, 09:55:55 AM
The oscilloscope analysis for Board 107.

 
 Average Output Power
12.05105778 watt
 Average Input Power
0.009865636 watt
 
COP = 1221.52
 
This Board 107 will be carefully studied and preserved.
 

Well, I see tremendous progress has happened while I've been away.
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #604 on: April 16, 2013, 04:19:25 AM »
Quote from: ltseung888 on April 12, 2013, 04:58:40 PM
@All,
 
It is now clear from the pictures on reply 562 that the Average Input Current can be tuned to 0.  Since the Input Voltage is always positive, we can get Average Input Power close to zero.  The Output Voltage and Output Current are always positive as seen in the many Output waveform graphs.
 
This means that we can tune the COP to almost any value.  (from large positive to large negative).  This fully explains the DSO analysis results.  It also explains why a rechargeable battery used as Source Input can show increasing voltage (being recharged) and decreasing voltage (being drained).
 
Everything makes sense.  The 200 Boards from Mr. Zhou are guaranteed to be OU if we tune them with the DC Power Supply!
 
Board 80 can definitely be demonstrated as OU in front of the Hong Kong Government.
 
All Glory and Honor to the Almighty.
 
@PhysicsProf:
 
You have the Atten and two boards.  You are in the best position to confirm the discussed findings.  Thank you in advance for your efforts.
 
@PW:
 
You can see that magic can be perrformed on Board 80 (or any of the Zhou boards).  You can name a COP (positive or negative) and any person with a DC Power Supply can tune it for you.  A lot more will be done on Board 80 in the coming weeks.  Thank you for asking TK to reproduce the "equal" crossing graph.  That triggered my thoughts on the Board 80 experiment.
Remember when Sean McCarthy of Steorn pointed out that he could "tune" the Orbo at Waterways by moving his pickup coil closer to his rotor? From COP 3 to COP 10 and even more?

Welcome to reality: Yet Another OU claim that only works when hooked up to, and tuned with, a power supply. Or a battery of just the right voltage ( a bit more plausible ).

Does PhysicsProf have a lot of experience doing power measurements with oscilloscopes? I'm just wondering why he's in the best position to do the appropriate testing.
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #605 on: April 16, 2013, 04:39:43 AM »
Quote from: picowatt on April 14, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
.99,

I now believe it is correct. 
 
I stared at it too long yesterday and in the midst of it all forgot that in the end, Pin(avg) is removed from Pout(avg) when the net power calculation is performed. 

PW

Whew.... I was afraid we'd lost you there for a moment. I couldn't quite agree with (my interpetation of) your reasoning about the output power not including everything that was actually measured at the output.
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #606 on: April 16, 2013, 04:46:57 AM »
Quote from: picowatt on April 14, 2013, 11:15:42 PM
.99

I am beginning to wonder if Lawrence's scopes need to have their input channel offsets checked.  Looking at the raw output data listing, when Q1 is on, Vout is 80mV.  At that same time, there is 12ma being indicated as the output current.  I have checked the current flow through several LED's of various "colors" and cannot find any that indicate anywhere near 1ma at that applied voltage.  Possibly his LED is different than those I have tested, but if that channel is applying a 12ma offset to all Pout calculations, that would be significant.

PW
Yep, I think I mentioned that possibility as well, even before seeing the present data. 1 mA at 80 mV is huge, for a good LED.
I've asked before that some measurements be taken of the voltage drop across the CVRs in DC conditions using ordinary DMMs on the millivolt or microvolt scale and comparing their voltage drop readings with those obtained by the scopes.
I don't know how the Atten scopes function in re DC offset/bias or if their power-on startup checks will detect out-of-spec conditions here. Some scopes do.
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #607 on: April 16, 2013, 04:56:32 AM »
@Lawrence:
Cheap tools are no bargain.

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #608 on: April 16, 2013, 05:09:08 AM »
@Lawrence: Congratulations on the measurement of COP vs. Input Voltage. That is an important bit of information. Your graph does not present the data correctly, though.

In graphing data one generally puts the "independent variable" on the horizontal axis and the "dependent variables" on the vertical axes. The IV is what the researcher is controlling and the DVs are what the researcher is measuring. In this case the Voltage Input is the IV and the COP is the DV. You have plotted "trial number" on the horizontal axis and both Vin and COP on the vertical axis and so your graph is garbled.

You could re-do this graph. It would display only the single COP line. The horizontal axis would be the voltage levels, and the vertical axis the calculated COP. Then your graph would display the relationship between Vin and COP properly.


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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #609 on: April 16, 2013, 10:49:17 AM »
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 16, 2013, 05:09:08 AM
@Lawrence: Congratulations on the measurement of COP vs. Input Voltage. That is an important bit of information. Your graph does not present the data correctly, though.

In graphing data one generally puts the "independent variable" on the horizontal axis and the "dependent variables" on the vertical axes. The IV is what the researcher is controlling and the DVs are what the researcher is measuring. In this case the Voltage Input is the IV and the COP is the DV. You have plotted "trial number" on the horizontal axis and both Vin and COP on the vertical axis and so your graph is garbled.

You could re-do this graph. It would display only the single COP line. The horizontal axis would be the voltage levels, and the vertical axis the calculated COP. Then your graph would display the relationship between Vin and COP properly.

I just made the seven minute video to show that when the Input Voltage drops, the average Input Current as detected on the Atten Oscilloscope can change from -14mV to +1.6mV in about 7 minutes.  This change means that the Average Input Power can be very low and also can change from negative to positive.  The Average Output Power was always positive and increased with increasing Input Voltage.
 
The end result is that a large range of COP is possible with the same Board 80!
 
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSfd8UeKDAg&feature=youtu.be
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #610 on: April 16, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »
Lawrence.

You should try shorting your current scope probe to itself and see what the average voltage is that it reads. One would expect 0mV correct?

Let us know the result of this simple test.
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Offline NickZ

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #611 on: April 16, 2013, 07:23:20 PM »
  All I see is the capacitor discharging, just like the pile of dead batteries that you are not mentioning, to confuse us further.  I'm not convinced, even though I believe that it is possible, but not from your low efficiency circuits.
 Stefan has also had more than enough time to let us all know just how long it took to discharge the new AA that he is using on his test circuits that you sent him.
   I think that I know why...
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #612 on: April 16, 2013, 08:54:25 PM »
Quote from: poynt99 on April 16, 2013, 04:59:02 PM
Lawrence.

You should try shorting your current scope probe to itself and see what the average voltage is that it reads. One would expect 0mV correct?

Let us know the result of this simple test.

@poynt99,
Correct.  Shorting the probes produced 0mV.   When will you show us your results?
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #613 on: April 16, 2013, 09:14:53 PM »
Quote from: NickZ on April 16, 2013, 07:23:20 PM
  All I see is the capacitor discharging, just like the pile of dead batteries that you are not mentioning, to confuse us further.  I'm not convinced, even though I believe that it is possible, but not from your low efficiency circuits.
 Stefan has also had more than enough time to let us all know just how long it took to discharge the new AA that he is using on his test circuits that you sent him.
   I think that I know why...
@NickZ
 
The main point of the video is that the Average Input Current reading changed from -14mV to +2mV with dropping voltage.
 
The Input Voltage, the Output Voltage and the Output Current are all positive all the time.  The Average Output Power -computed from the average of (Vout x Iout) sample points is always positive and the absolute value is well above that of the Average Input Power.
 
The Average Input Power can have very low values especially near Iin (CH2 Vavg) = 0.0mV.  This will give rise to relatively large COP (both negative and positive) values.
 
Please watch the video again and focus on the Iin (CH2 Vavg) display during the seven minutes.  This result can be produced even with a single channel analog Oscilloscope.  TK has his own board and his Scope.  I am not too sure what Stefan has but the above youtube experiment can be repeated with ease.  Just use a capacitor if the tester does not have a DC Power Supply.  That will save the trouble of finding depleted AA batteries with different remaining voltage values.
 
The best results will be from poynt99 with his 4-CH DSO and his DC Power Supply.
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Offline NickZ

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #614 on: April 16, 2013, 09:32:28 PM »
  You are blind, or what?  No need to answer me, I know that you are more than just blind.
The capacitor is dead, no matter what the readings are showing. Can't you see this???
  There is not a single Joule Thief that you have shown or talked about in the last several years that has anything going for it. Not one. They all are just simple oscillators using up all the available CURRENT provided by the battery. Open your eyes...
  You are not convincing me with your two oscillator readings, and PILE of dead batteries, that you won't talk about. Right!
  What in Gods name are you raving about!!!

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