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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 527928 times)

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #555 on: April 12, 2013, 09:37:04 AM »
I did the DSO analysis on Board 80 again with the latest "correct" setting.
 
The negative Input Power is now taken to be Current drawn from the battery.  Thus the COP is now positive.
 
The COP is still 1.41.  The Average Output Power is still greater than then Average Input Power.
 
More research is worthwhile.

Lawrence,

Do you have a completed spreadsheet of slide 12 (board 80 input)?

PW

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #556 on: April 12, 2013, 09:52:35 AM »
Lawrence,

In your recent post #549 of board 80's input power, the waveshapes and frequencies are different from that which you posted in your reply 503.

Slide 12 of post 503, which is supposed to be the input power capture for board 80, is at 3KHz, the same as the output power slide .  Both of the recent posts of board 80's input capture have different frequencies and wveshapes.  The only input power that can compared to a board's output power is one that was performed as close to simultaneously as possible.

Also, when comparing the input and output data, you should attempt to sync up the data as best you can.  As TK has suggested, try looking at both the inpuc current with CH1 and the output current with CH2 on the same scope.  You will then be able to recognize the true beginning of a cycle when you use two scopes.  You can then collect a bit more data length than you need and edit your sample list from each scope so that you are sure they both contain the same number of cycles (i.e., have the same beginning and end point relative to an integral number of samples).

Alternately, you might try using a fifth probe connected to the output voltage point (top of LED) and connect that probe to the external trigger of the first scope.  The output voltage waveform has a fairly fast risetime so by triggering both scopes from that point, you will be more assured of having the same number of full cycles in your sample data.

To sync up even closer, you could use 6 probes total, with the tips of probes 5 and 6 cboth onnected to the output voltage point and each used to drive the externa trigger inputs of the two scopes.  Using 10X probes shouldn't overly load that point and by setting the triggers on both scopes to external, rising edge, and the same voltage, you will be assured of at least some degree of reasonable sync triggering.  All input/output capture images posted will then be time aligned between the two scopes to a fair degree.

PW     

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #557 on: April 12, 2013, 09:54:03 AM »
Lawrence,

Do you have a completed spreadsheet of slide 12 (board 80 input)?

PW

See Reply 552.  That completed spreadsheet is for Board 80.  It has the Average Input and Output Power, the COP and the graphs.  Please study and comment on it carefully.  It will be presented to the Hong Kong Government.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #558 on: April 12, 2013, 09:55:55 AM »
The oscilloscope analysis for Board 107.

 
 Average Output Power
12.05105778 watt
 Average Input Power
0.009865636 watt
 
COP = 1221.52
 
This Board 107 will be carefully studied and preserved.
 

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #559 on: April 12, 2013, 10:25:36 AM »
Lawrence,

In your recent post #549 of board 80's input power, the waveshapes and frequencies are different from that which you posted in your reply 503.

Slide 12 of post 503, which is supposed to be the input power capture for board 80, is at 3KHz, the same as the output power slide .  Both of the recent posts of board 80's input capture have different frequencies and wveshapes.  The only input power that can compared to a board's output power is one that was performed as close to simultaneously as possible.

Also, when comparing the input and output data, you should attempt to sync up the data as best you can.  As TK has suggested, try looking at both the inpuc current with CH1 and the output current with CH2 on the same scope.  You will then be able to recognize the true beginning of a cycle when you use two scopes.  You can then collect a bit more data length than you need and edit your sample list from each scope so that you are sure they both contain the same number of cycles (i.e., have the same beginning and end point relative to an integral number of samples).

Alternately, you might try using a fifth probe connected to the output voltage point (top of LED) and connect that probe to the external trigger of the first scope.  The output voltage waveform has a fairly fast risetime so by triggering both scopes from that point, you will be more assured of having the same number of full cycles in your sample data.

To sync up even closer, you could use 6 probes total, with the tips of probes 5 and 6 cboth onnected to the output voltage point and each used to drive the externa trigger inputs of the two scopes.  Using 10X probes shouldn't overly load that point and by setting the triggers on both scopes to external, rising edge, and the same voltage, you will be assured of at least some degree of reasonable sync triggering.  All input/output capture images posted will then be time aligned between the two scopes to a fair degree.

PW   
@PW
 
Poynt99 has a 4-CH DSO.  All the top Universities in Hong Kong (and the World) are expected to have top of the line 4-Ch DSOs.  I sow seeds only.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #560 on: April 12, 2013, 11:43:22 AM »
Board 113 is unusual in that the COP = 0.1.
 
Possible soldering problem as some solders were seen that appeared to do nothing?  Might have short circuited something?

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #561 on: April 12, 2013, 04:41:09 PM »

See Reply 552.  That completed spreadsheet is for Board 80.  It has the Average Input and Output Power, the COP and the graphs.  Please study and comment on it carefully.  It will be presented to the Hong Kong Government.

Lawrence,

On my computer, the first Board 80 data you presented is shown in reply #503 as slide 12.jpg and slide 13.jpg.

I looked at the .xls data linked in that post.  There is no output data .xls spreadsheet, and the input data spreadsheet appears to only be a list of the sampled data with no math performed.

So I have yet to find a spreadsheet for board 80 that shows the corrected instantaneous input voltages multiplied by the instantaneous current with the products then averaged for a calculated average input power..

You recently posted a spreadsheet for slide 13 which is the output data for board 80 and it would be nice to see a similar spreadsheet for side 12.

Could you repost a spreadsheet showing the calculated average input power for board 80 using the data from the "slide 12.jpg"?

Thanks,
PW 


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #562 on: April 12, 2013, 04:45:03 PM »
@TK,
 
Worried about not reproducing your graph of Input Current crossing the zero axis?
 
If you have a DC Power Supply, you can easily reproduce that situation.  If you rely on partially depleted batteries, you need much luck.
 
See the results of different Input Voltages on the Input Current.  I changed the CH2 Vrms display to CH2 Vavg so that the negative sign is much easier to spot.  You can tune until the Vavg = 0.  That will give equal crossing of the zero axis.
 
*** Board 80 was used.

 
The Almighty encourages us to learn more with more hard work.  I do not think you made a mistake.  You just did not find the right depleted battery...

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #563 on: April 12, 2013, 04:58:40 PM »
@All,
 
It is now clear from the pictures on reply 562 that the Average Input Current can be tuned to 0.  Since the Input Voltage is always positive, we can get Average Input Power close to zero.  The Output Voltage and Output Current are always positive as seen in the many Output waveform graphs.
 
This means that we can tune the COP to almost any value.  (from large positive to large negative).  This fully explains the DSO analysis results.  It also explains why a rechargeable battery used as Source Input can show increasing voltage (being recharged) and decreasing voltage (being drained).
 
Everything makes sense.  The 200 Boards from Mr. Zhou are guaranteed to be OU if we tune them with the DC Power Supply!
 
Board 80 can definitely be demonstrated as OU in front of the Hong Kong Government.
 
All Glory and Honor to the Almighty.
 
@PhysicsProf:
 
You have the Atten and two boards.  You are in the best position to confirm the discussed findings.  Thank you in advance for your efforts.
 
@PW:
 
You can see that magic can be perrformed on Board 80 (or any of the Zhou boards).  You can name a COP (positive or negative) and any person with a DC Power Supply can tune it for you.  A lot more will be done on Board 80 in the coming weeks.  Thank you for asking TK to reproduce the "equal" crossing graph.  That triggered my thoughts on the Board 80 experiment.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #564 on: April 12, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
The oscilloscope analysis for Board 107.

 
 Average Output Power
12.05105778 watt
 Average Input Power
0.009865636 watt
 
COP = 1221.52
 
This Board 107 will be carefully studied and preserved.
 

Lawrence,

I suggest you slow down and focus on just one board and attempt to demonstrate input and output data calculations that support your claim of OU using that one board and data set.

You posted "Board 107 input.jpg" and "Board 107 output.jpg" in reply 553.  Looking at thos captures, there is no evidence of OU.

Yet here in this post you present data that somehow is supposed to indicate that board 107 has a COP=1221.52.

In the spreadsheet that is somehow supposed to support your claim of COP=1221.52, the provided input power waveforms are nothing at all like those of board 107 shown in your reply 553.

You appear to be mixing and matching data and never seem to provide a spreadsheet that shows BOTH the input and output calculations for given set of waveforms.

I would suggest you pick one set of scope captures for one board, post the .jpg's of the input and output power screen captures and the spreadsheets of the calculated average power for those screen captures.

PW

 

 

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #565 on: April 12, 2013, 05:22:43 PM »
Lawrence,

I suggest you slow down and focus on just one board and attempt to demonstrate input and output data calculations that support your claim of OU using that one board and data set.

You posted "Board 107 input.jpg" and "Board 107 output.jpg" in reply 553.  Looking at thos captures, there is no evidence of OU.

Yet here in this post you present data that somehow is supposed to indicate that board 107 has a COP=1221.52.

In the spreadsheet that is somehow supposed to support your claim of COP=1221.52, the provided input power waveforms are nothing at all like those of board 107 shown in your reply 553.

You appear to be mixing and matching data and never seem to provide a spreadsheet that shows BOTH the input and output calculations for given set of waveforms.

I would suggest you pick one set of scope captures for one board, post the .jpg's of the input and output power screen captures and the spreadsheets of the calculated average power for those screen captures.

PW

 

 
@PW:
 
Read reply 562 and 563.  Any change in DC Power Supply value will change the waveforms!

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #566 on: April 12, 2013, 05:31:07 PM »
@PW:
 
Read reply 562 and 563.  Any change in DC Power Supply value will change the waveforms!

Lawrence,

This reply would be fine had asked if changes in supply voltage affect the waveform.  I did not ask for that.

However, I am asking for you to post a pair of input and output screen capture .jpg's taken from a board at the same time and then provide spreadsheets that calculate both the input and output power of the data from those screen captures.

So far I have been unable to find one instance where you ave done this.

A good place to start would be for you to provide spreadsheet calculations of the board 80 input and output captures which are slide 12 and slide 13.

PW

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #567 on: April 12, 2013, 06:00:36 PM »
A systematic analysis on Board 80 will be done in the next few days or weeks.
 
The analysis will cover at least the following:
(1) Low Input Voltage so that CH2 Vavg is of relatively large positive value - giving rise to small negative COP
(2) Higher Input Voltage so that CH2 Vavg is of relatively small positive value - giving rise to large negative COP
(3) Higher Input Voltage so that Ch2 Vavg is zero - giving COP value equal to infinity!
(4) Higher Input Voltage so that CH2 Vavg is of relatively small negative value - giving rise to large positive COP
(5) Higher Input Voltage so that CH2 Vavg is of relatively large negative value - giving rise to small positive COP
 
Be patient.  I think I can get a 4-CH DSO to do the above.  That will resolve all problems related to not having simultaneous Input and Outpur measurements.  Poynt99 can do that for us.  (Or a Top University can do that for us.)
 
@PW
 
Do you have a 2 or 4-CH DSO?  If so, I shall be happy to send you one of the Zhou Boards.  You can then have fun yourself and do any analysis at your leisure.  Remember that I sow seeds only.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #568 on: April 12, 2013, 06:58:42 PM »
The full paper will take weeks if not months.  Meanwhile, I shall post some raw data for those who would like to do the analysis themselves.
 
The data is from Board 80 meant for the Hong Kong Government.

Lawrence and all,

Can someone please set up the excel "input.xls" included in the above quoted post so that the input V is corrected and the VxI product is displayed in the a column with an average of all VxI products is generated?  (this is supposed to be the input data set for slide 12 of post 503, which is Board 80)

At least then we would have a full set of input/output captures and an average Pin and Pout calculated from at least that capture data.

I have no idea how Lawrence can make ANY claim without at least doing this for all boards and captures.

Lawrence...  If you don't think you can make a proper analysis until you have a University or such do so, I suggest you stop posting unsupported claims until then.  That is just a suggestion.  It tends to erode your credibility.


Thanks,

PW

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #569 on: April 13, 2013, 01:14:48 AM »
Lawrence and all,

Can someone please set up the excel "input.xls" included in the above quoted post so that the input V is corrected and the VxI product is displayed in the a column with an average of all VxI products is generated?  (this is supposed to be the input data set for slide 12 of post 503, which is Board 80)

At least then we would have a full set of input/output captures and an average Pin and Pout calculated from at least that capture data.

I have no idea how Lawrence can make ANY claim without at least doing this for all boards and captures.

Lawrence...  If you don't think you can make a proper analysis until you have a University or such do so, I suggest you stop posting unsupported claims until then.  That is just a suggestion.  It tends to erode your credibility.


Thanks,

PW
@PW,
 
You probably missed it with the hugh number of posts.  See reply 552.  It contains the full DSO analysis for Board 80.  The first sheet is the Output.  The second sheet is the Input.  The various wavforms such as Voltage, Current and Power are also displayed.  The saved BMP files are included for comparison.  The COP was calculated to be 1.41 at the end of first sheet.
 
@All,
 
I also tried to get CH2 Vavg to 0V by adjusting the DC Power Supply.  The readings were fluctating and I could not get a perfect steady reading.  However, when CH1 Vrms was at 680mV, CH2 Vavg fluctuated between 4mV and -2mV.