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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 528247 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #450 on: April 03, 2013, 01:32:55 PM »
Ah, so now we have negative output power as well as negative input power.  I shake my head slowly in awe.

Lawrence, I have asked you to provide traces from your scope's calibrator, so that we can see the probe response to a known square wave signal generated by the scope itself. I'll ask again now.

Please provide a calibrator trace from each probe, as they are at present, without making any adjustments to the probe's compensating trimmer cap.

I would also like to know if your readings are at all sensitive to the way the probe wires are routed. That is, with everything hooked up and running, if you move the probe wires around (not the probe contact points, just the wires) do the scope traces change at all?

Thanks in advance, and happy Chinese Easter.

@TK
 
Is this what you are looking for?

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #451 on: April 03, 2013, 06:42:37 PM »
Quote

 Mr. Tseung,
I have enjoyed your posts, not only for the promise they contain regarding the Joule Theif, and its future devleopments, but also because you give God credit where credit is due. You mentioned you had tried to be a farmer, and wound up doing this research. I can relate in my own way, and your message was a helpful reminder that God's grace is leading us all to where He can best use us. May your work continue to flourish and accomplish all He has chosen for you to do. 
Bob
 
 
PS
By way of interest, there is a fellow named Janost on the Donald Smith Devices - Too Good To Be True thread in the Energetic Forum, who claims that a version of the JT he built has been recharging batteries as it runs.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-299.html#post226633
 
Janost's Self-oscillating Air-cored JT
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-300.html#post227244
Janost Schematic JT Charging 2 Batteries:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-302.html#post227922
Janost's JT run on caps:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-304.html#post228243

It looks like FLEET is not the only way to achieve OU.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #452 on: April 04, 2013, 01:02:11 AM »
 
@poynt99
 
Answers to your questions.
(1)    On the Board with the 10F capacitor, do the following tests:
a.       Do what you have done.  Connect the 1.5V battery for 1 minute.  Disconnect and see how long the LEDs remain ON.  15 minutes is about right for your Board.
b.      Connect the 1.5V battery for 1 minute.  Disconnect for 2 minutes.  Connect for 15 seconds.  Disconnect for 2 minutes and reconnect for 15 seconds.  Repeat this manually a couple of times and see if the LED remains brightly ON throughout the entire process.
c.       Step b shows the possibility of saving electricity.  If you have a twin timer, repeat step b automatically.
1)
a. Actually, it is at least 15 minutes.

c. How would this process possibly save energy?

2) I'll try my best to do these tests.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #453 on: April 04, 2013, 02:31:30 AM »
1)
a. Actually, it is at least 15 minutes.

c. How would this process possibly save energy?

2) I'll try my best to do these tests.

@poynt99
a. Actually, it is at least 15 minutes.  Excellent.  This is the expected result.
 
c. How would this process possibly save energy?  This concept and technique was implemented with different set up to a vertical farm.  Details are commercial secrets.  Claimed savings in electricity bill > 50%.
*** One common misconception when a super capacitor is in the circuit - Energy is just stored in the capacitor and then released slowly.  The oscilloscope waveforms and analysis show a different story - Energy is Lead-out or brought-in. 
 
2) I'll try my best to do these tests.  You can just show the waveforms first.  The most interesting will be the Input Current Waveform.  If the negatve portion appears to be more than the positive portion, you have negative Average Input Power.  That is a good sign of OU - technique used by Mr. Zhou.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #454 on: April 04, 2013, 03:31:30 AM »

c. How would this process possibly save energy?  This concept and technique was implemented with different set up to a vertical farm.  Details are commercial secrets.  Claimed savings in electricity bill > 50%.
*** One common misconception when a super capacitor is in the circuit - Energy is just stored in the capacitor and then released slowly.  The oscilloscope waveforms and analysis show a different story - Energy is Lead-out or brought-in. 

Let's say for example, that the total amount of energy drained from the charged capacitor is 30J. How do you know Lawrence that you did not transfer that much energy (actually double) from the battery?

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #455 on: April 04, 2013, 03:35:16 AM »
c. How would this process possibly save energy?  This concept and technique was implemented with different set up to a vertical farm.  Details are commercial secrets.  Claimed savings in electricity bill > 50%.
Did that involve a change over from incandescent or CFL lighting to LED lighting?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #456 on: April 04, 2013, 04:51:54 AM »

@TK
 
Is this what you are looking for?
Yes, Lawrence, thank you.

Please note several things. The very most important is that the waveform is not "square" in 3 of the shots. Only one of your probes is properly compensated. Another important issue is that the calibrator output is generally at around 3 volts for the Atten scope. I refer to your Manual, section 1.3.3. where probe compensation checking is described.

Your scope traces show three badly out-of-compensation probes and also some problem with voltages. Every probe should show the same voltage and the same _square_ waveform.

Only Scope 2, Channel 2 is showing the correct, 3 v p-p square waveform that the calibrator is putting out.

Clearly, a waveform that dips below the zero baseline due to improper probe compensation will affect your calculations.

Also, in the matter of your presentation: Once again, please insure that the channel baselines are _exactly_ on a screen horizontal graticule line, and that your _trigger_ is actually triggering on the channel you are displaying or discussing, unless other considerations apply. I would have expected all four traces to be presented with the baselines at the center graticule line of the respective screens, at the same vertical attenuation settings, and properly triggered on the channel that is displayed.

Bottom line: all your data so far is invalid because your probe compensation is incorrectly adjusted. Sorry. Next time.... RTFM.



We are being criticised by certain amateurs for relying solely on oscilloscope measurements in order to "debunk" claims of overunity ..... but as you may recall, I am critical of you for relying solely on oscilloscope measurements in _positive_ claim of overunity and I have told you that you need concurrent validity... agreement with other means of showing energy output. This of course destroys the amateur's false argument completely.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #457 on: April 04, 2013, 05:15:02 AM »
Let me discuss the calibrator shots in detail. According to the Atten manual the calibrator output is at "about" 3 V p-p, a square wave, at 1 kHz frequency. Each probe should read the same: 3 v P-P, square wave, 1 kHz frequency.

Scope1, Probe 1: The vertical attenuator is set to 2 volts per division, The probe is reading almost 4 volts p-p. The most negative indication is below the zero baseline. The waveform isn't square. The trigger is set on a non-displayed channel and is not within the span of the waveform of interest. The scope is reporting a frequency of 49.9 Hertz.

Scope 1, Probe 2: The vertical attenuator is set to 5 volts per division and the probe is reading almost 20 volts p-p. Again, the most negative indication is below the zero baseline and the waveform isn't square. The trigger is set at the zero baseline of the channel -- OK but it should be a bit above so the "T" doesn't obscure the "2" baseline indicator, and so that you get a positive trigger on a signal, not noise. But... at least the frequency is reading correctly at 1.0000 kHz.

Scope 2, Probe 1: The vertical attenuator is set to 1 volt per division. The probe is reading about 3 V p-p, which is good, but again, the most negative indication is below the zero baseline and the waveform isn't square. The trigger is incorrectly set, again on the other channel and out of range. And the scope is reporting a frequency of "under 10 Hertz", clearly wrong.

Scope 2, Probe 2: Almost Correct! The vertical attenuation is set to 1 volt per division, and the voltage and waveforms are correct. The trigger is improperly set (see Scope 1, Probe 2 above) and the scope is again WAAYYY off in the frequency: it is reporting under 10 Hz again.


So... a pretty poor performance. There is something "fatally" wrong with each of the calibrator displays, besides "stylistic" factors. Incorrect voltage readings from two probes, three probes out of compensation, and wrong frequencies from three probe-scope combos.

YOUR DATA IS GARBAGE.  Every trace should look like the last one in voltage and waveform, and every frequency display should read 1.00000 kHz. If the scope calibrator screens are wrong, you can be quite certain that the experimental data also suffers from these flaws.

Sorry.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #458 on: April 04, 2013, 05:47:45 AM »
I note that probe compensation adjustment is very rarely mentioned, but can cause severe problems in situations like these. I don't recall anyone ever asking that rank amateur scoposcopist Ainslie to check or adjust her probe compensation, for example. We don't often discuss using the "ON" button to turn a scope on, either..... the matter of probe compensation is just that basic.

A further probe issue that greatly affects power computations is skew. This is a lack of synchronous readings caused by propagation delays and the sequential nature of DSO channel sampling. Clearly, if you are taking a voltage measurement at one time and a current measurement at a different time, these cannot be legitimately multiplied together to give a power value. Yet people do it all the time, by not compensating for probe skew in their measurements. DSOs generally have the ability to compensate for probe skew; there may be a setup screen in the Atten scopes to handle it, and there certainly is such facility in the LeCroy that RA used for her bogus "experiments"-- and of course she never made use of probe skew correction. (This issue becomes even more important when active differential voltage probes or true Current probes are used, as they will have a different time constant than ordinary passive probes.)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #459 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:28 AM »
The correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration diagrams.
 
@TK,
 
I read the Manual and found the correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration Procedure.  The correct photos are shown here.  Thank you for all your comments - they refer to incorrect photos.  All my posted data are correct as the calibration was done right for me when I bought the Scopes.
 
@testers and All researchers.
 
False Alarm from TK.....  I did not give him the correct calibration diagrams.....  The pictures on reply 450 are definitely not calibration pictures.  Should not blame TK for not recognizing them as oscilloscope manufacturers have different displays.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 11:28:55 AM by ltseung888 »

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #460 on: April 04, 2013, 09:07:13 AM »
The correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration diagrams.
 
@TK,
 
I read the Manual and found the correct Oscilloscope Probe Calibration Procedure.  The correct photos are shown here.  Thank you for all your comments - they refer to incorrect photos.  All my posted data are correct as the calibration was done right for me when I brought the Scopes.
 
@testers and All researchers.
 
False Alarm from TK.....  I did not give him the correct calibration diagrams.....  The pictures on reply 450 are definitely not calibration pictures.  Should not blame TK for not recognizing them as oscilloscope manufacturers have different displays.

Lawrence,

I would hardly consider the post 450 scope shots a "False Alarm".

Irregardless of any channel's vertical sensitivity settings, the displayed waveform of the signal at your scope's calibrator post should always indicate approximately 3 volts pk-pk.  Additionally, the displayed waveform should appear square with little undershoot or overshoot, indicating a flat frequency response.  All but one of your scope shots indicated a frequency response that rises with frequency.

The wierdest display is scope 1 channel 2 wherein 15volts pk-pk (at low frequency) is indicated from the approximately 3 volt pk-pk signal at the calibrator post.

You should investigate and/or explain why that channel on scope 1 is not indicating the proper amplitude.  Even with the probe and channel attenuation settings mismatched, it is difficult to understand how scope 1 channel 2 is indicating high by a factor of 5. 

Are you using all probes switched to their X10 setting and with the scope channels also set for X10 probes? 

The post 450 scope shots do not lend much credence to the accuracy of your previous data. 

PW

 

   

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #461 on: April 04, 2013, 01:12:08 PM »
Lawrence,

I would hardly consider the post 450 scope shots a "False Alarm".

Irregardless of any channel's vertical sensitivity settings, the displayed waveform of the signal at your scope's calibrator post should always indicate approximately 3 volts pk-pk.  Additionally, the displayed waveform should appear square with little undershoot or overshoot, indicating a flat frequency response.  All but one of your scope shots indicated a frequency response that rises with frequency.

The wierdest display is scope 1 channel 2 wherein 15volts pk-pk (at low frequency) is indicated from the approximately 3 volt pk-pk signal at the calibrator post.

You should investigate and/or explain why that channel on scope 1 is not indicating the proper amplitude.  Even with the probe and channel attenuation settings mismatched, it is difficult to understand how scope 1 channel 2 is indicating high by a factor of 5. 

Are you using all probes switched to their X10 setting and with the scope channels also set for X10 probes? 

The post 450 scope shots do not lend much credence to the accuracy of your previous data. 

PW

 

 
IGNORE ALL PICTURES FROM REPLY 450!!!!!!!!!!!!  THEY WERE WRONG.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #462 on: April 04, 2013, 05:34:14 PM »
IGNORE ALL PICTURES FROM REPLY 450!!!!!!!!!!!!  THEY WERE WRONG.

That is the point!

The question is why are they wrong?

As you have relied heavily on the use of these scopes to prove your technology and present your data, surely you must see that a better explanation of the 450 captures is required than just "ignore them".

Oh well...

PW


Offline Poit

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #463 on: April 05, 2013, 12:15:43 AM »
Ok, fine.. ill be the one that will point at the elephant in the room!

THERE IS NO OU HERE FOLKS!!

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #464 on: April 05, 2013, 12:22:56 AM »
That is the point!

The question is why are they wrong?

As you have relied heavily on the use of these scopes to prove your technology and present your data, surely you must see that a better explanation of the 450 captures is required than just "ignore them".

Oh well...

PW
@picowatt
 
The pictures on reply 450 were wrong because I did not press the "default setup" button first before doing the calibration.  The Atten Oscilloscopes have many options and settings.  For normal operations, I had to use specific settings depending on what I wanted to display.  For example, I displayed Ch1 Vpp, Vrms and Ch2 Vpp, Vrms, etc.  To do the calibration of the probes correctly, very specific setting was required.  The Atten Scope has the "default setup" or "factory setup" to help to achieve that.
 
I did not press that button first and thus the "calibration pictures" were wrong.  A simple error.
 
*** This is actually a good experience.  When I bring my Atten Scopes (or use new ones) at one of the Top Universities, I shall do the full calibration procedure in front of the Academics.  The results will be more convincing.  It also points out the difficulty if I rely on "their oscilloscopes".  There is no possibility that I will be able to master the operations of all different models of oscilloscopes.  Bringing one or two Atten Scopes for demonstration is a MUST.  (Bringing a laptop computer is NOT.)