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### Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 611393 times)

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #375 on: March 21, 2013, 03:57:41 AM »
Bill,

The fact that an LED is a nonlinear load, and a resistor is a linear load is irrelevant to the measurement. ANY load can be properly measured as is being discussed here, and the results will be correct. For some reason Xee can not get his mind around this and is hung up by this method.

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #376 on: March 21, 2013, 04:03:16 AM »
Bill,

The fact that an LED is a nonlinear load, and a resistor is a linear load is irrelevant to the measurement. ANY load can be properly measured as is being discussed here, and the results will be correct. For some reason Xee can not get his mind around this and is hung up by this method.

I will have to take your word for that.  I was surprised to learn that Ohm's law does not apply in all cases.  In my mind that does not make it much of a "law".

Do you not agree that if there is even .000001% O.U. than a self-runner would prove this?  If it were an even 0 then maybe nothing but, even the slightest output more than in would make it run itself....no?  Anyway, this is what I believe is the first, most basic, test.

Bill

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #377 on: March 21, 2013, 05:30:23 AM »
I will have to take your word for that.  I was surprised to learn that Ohm's law does not apply in all cases.  In my mind that does not make it much of a "law".

Do you not agree that if there is even .000001% O.U. than a self-runner would prove this?  If it were an even 0 then maybe nothing but, even the slightest output more than in would make it run itself....no?  Anyway, this is what I believe is the first, most basic, test.

Bill
@Bill,

If you look at reply 317 and 320 of this thread, you will see the waveforms when the Output of one JT is used as Input to another.  The result is much more complex than a simple superimposition.

The good news is - one group informed me that their battery charger can light up many LEDs and the batteries can recharge each other.  I shall do an oscilloscope analysis of a simpler battery charger circuit and see whether external energy (lead-out energy) is responsible.  I hope that you do not mine that the "self-runner" turns out to be a battery charger!

If I am not mistaken, your 1980 oscilloscope is not able to capture the data from the two channels as CSV files for analysis.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #378 on: March 21, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
The forever lighted lamp plus the battery charger?

Two rechargeable AA batteries were used.  Both were slightly run down.  The Input Voltage Vrms was 1.24V at start.  After 1 hour, the Input Voltage Vrms increased to 1.26V.  After swapping, the Input Voltage Vrms continued to be 1.26V with either battery.  The LED remained at the same brightness throughout.

A similar set up lighted the LED for three weeks with full brightness until the cleaning lady "touched" it.  This time, no one is allowed to enter my bedroom.  One group told me that they had such a set up running for > 3 months already.  So far the oscilloscope pictures indicate that they may be right.  There is much energy coming in from the outside - lead-out energy?  Focus on the Negative Input Current (lower part of Input waveform; same technique as Mr. Zhou).

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #379 on: March 21, 2013, 12:14:38 PM »
Attached is the circuit diagram for the rechargeable AA batteries + LED on March 21, 2013.

At the moment, the two batteries are swapped when the Input Channel 1 Vrms drops to 1.24V.  It happens every 4-5 hours.  Once swapped, the Vrms rises to 1.28Vfor a few minutes and settles back to 1.26V for some hours.  If this pattern continues for days or weeks, we shall be confident of the experimental results and the technical procedures to replicate and improve...

The Board used is 71 - already confirmed to have Average Output Power > Average Input Power.

With FLEET, the circuit diagram is a guideline.  Not all build according to the circuit diagram will hehave in the same way.  Lighting the LED does not guarantee that the Board is OU.  The oscilloscope confirmation is the absolute MUST.

*** I am only sowing seeds.  Others are already fertilizing, watering, weeding etc.  In scientific terms, they are:
(1) Using 2n3055 or higher end transistors.
(2) Using different pulsing methods.
(3) Using different connections (e.g. seondary coils or Joule RInger)
(4) Using 12V car batteries.
(5) Using other sources to Pulse and Maintain the Lead-out Energy conditions. (e.g. solar or mains power).
The floodgate is open....  God Bless.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 08:30:28 PM by ltseung888 »

#### powercat

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1091
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #380 on: March 21, 2013, 02:44:26 PM »
I will have to take your word for that.  I was surprised to learn that Ohm's law does not apply in all cases.  In my mind that does not make it much of a "law".

Do you not agree that if there is even .000001% O.U. than a self-runner would prove this?  If it were an even 0 then maybe nothing but, even the slightest output more than in would make it run itself....no?  Anyway, this is what I believe is the first, most basic, test.

Bill

I agree with Bill, and a self-runner does not have batteries that go flat or need swapping over that is completely ridiculous,  anyone with any experience here has seen it all before with the Bedini  motors,  a proper self-runner does not need a battery, possibly a small capacitor.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #381 on: March 21, 2013, 03:09:50 PM »
Once we determined that there is Lead-out Energy, the next task is to find out HOW MUCH?

Can the amount lead-out or brought-in be large enough to light up the LED and discipate through the resistors etc?  There were bursts of current from time to time.  What is the significance???

How to tune to get the largest amount of Lead-out Energy?

Does the above go beyond sowing seeds???

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #382 on: March 21, 2013, 07:57:53 PM »
The reading at 2:30am.  The Input battery Vrms dropped to 1.24V.  Swap.  Goes back to 1.26V.  It appears that 1.26V is the "steady" state for this circuit.

One stupid way is keep getting up 4-5 hours and do the battery swap to maintain the "steady" state.  Do it for a few days, weeks, months or years to convince the skeptics.  Another way is to go for an automatic swapping mechanism.

I would choose the clever and lazy way.  The oscilloscope waveforms are so convincing that I can stop and let others replicate, improve and take this further.  My job is to sow seeds.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #383 on: March 22, 2013, 12:54:31 AM »
The reading at 7:30 am on Nov 22, 2013.

The LED was ON at full brightness all this time.

More research (by the farmers) on
(2) 2n3055 or better.
(3) Different capacitor, resistor, toroid.
(4) Multiple batteries to recharge.
(6) Automatic Swapping mechanism.
(7) Best batteries for recharging, etc.

Enjoy the Divine Wine.....
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 05:40:38 AM by ltseung888 »

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #384 on: March 22, 2013, 01:09:32 AM »
The reading at 7:30 am on Nov 22, 2013.

The LED was ON at full brightness all this time.

Hi,

I am amazed you can forecast now on March 22 2013 what is going to happen this November 22, 2013.  Or you really have that date?

#### e2matrix

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1956
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #385 on: March 22, 2013, 05:36:34 AM »
Hi,

I am amazed you can forecast now on March 22 2013 what is going to happen this November 22, 2013.  Or you really have that date?
LOL,   Maybe he is slipping in and out of different time lines due to the action of the toroidal vortices.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #386 on: March 22, 2013, 05:45:12 AM »
Hi,

I am amazed you can forecast now on March 22 2013 what is going to happen this November 22, 2013.  Or you really have that date?

@gyulasun,

Thanks for pointing the error of the date.  Hopefully, when that day comes, the above result will still hold.  I shall keep the setup running in the background - may need to add the auto-swap mechanism.  I hate swapping every 4-5 hours for 7 months!

The latest scope shot again showed no run down of batteries.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #387 on: March 22, 2013, 08:44:58 AM »
Here are the oscilloscope analysis files for the AA battery charger done on March 22, 2013.

The Average Input Power = -0.00714 watts
The Average Output Power = 0.029213 watts
The COP = -4.09

The oscilloscope analysis results clearly show that there is much lead-out energy coming into the system.  The energy used to charge the batteries are external.....

The forever lighted LED in this case is possible because of such lead-out energy.  Amen.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #388 on: March 22, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »
Some testers were confused by the many connections on the oscilloscope test-ready boards.  The following should help.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #389 on: March 22, 2013, 07:30:17 PM »
You are the one who is confused, Lawrence.

Your LED does not shine "forever", your boards are not "overunity", your batteries and capacitors do discharge, and your measurements and calculations are in error.

Further... a NEGATIVE COP is nonsensical.

If your input battery or capacitor is draining _at all_, then you have a positive input power. If you are getting any output at all, you have a positive output power. How, then, can you possibly combine these two POSITIVE numbers and arrive at a NEGATIVE ratio? Your claim of a "negative" COP from a system with any net real power output implies that it is also putting net power OUT of its input leads..... and so a battery or cap connected here could never discharge and would, as others have told you, fail from being overcharged. Since you do have output: your LEDs do light, and you do have positive input: your input batteries/capacitors do discharge, your "negative COP" spurious result indicates only that you are continuing to make your series of errors, and also that you still don't understand what your circuit is doing, nor how to measure it properly.