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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 536217 times)

Offline Poit

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #360 on: March 18, 2013, 06:10:09 AM »
The real problem here is that Mr ltseung888 has what is referred to ask 'Sunk Cost Syndrome'. Often referenced in finacaial matters, but in this case, I beleive this to be correct diagnosis of Itseung888 and his refusal to see the truth. He is barking up the wrong tree, there is no OU in joule theifs, end of story.

"Sunk cost syndrome is where you are so attached to your existing work, products and methods that you refuse to abandon them even if they become outdated.The Fortune article talks about Seymour Cray as an example.  Cray built sailboats and supercomputers. “But in computing Cray knew, there is no such thing as timeless perfection, only obsolescence.  To drive the point home, legend goes, he’d build a beautiful sailboat each spring, then burn it in the fall.”
I think this applies to your Big Ticket Marketing in two main ways.
The first way is the obvious one.  Don’t fall so completely in love with a product or way of marketing that you stop trying to improve it.  In some ways you should be working to make your own products obsolete before someone else does it for you!  Try to constantly think of ways to improve your products and to improve your marketing.  Try another traffic generation technique, another list building process, another tracking tool, EVEN if the ones you are using today work great.  They could stop working sometime in the future.
The second way that Sunk-cost syndrome applies to your marketing business is what Robert Allen calls multiple streams of income.  Even if you have a product that you love and is selling really well, you should still go out and create additional products and sell them as well.  Or have multiple big ticket backend products for an existing product. Then if sales bottom out for a particular product because a killer competitive product is introduced in the market or even if the market for the product slowly dries up.  You still have the safety net of other products and their revenue streams to rely on."
http://www.likemagicmarketing.com/blogs/bigticket/2005_07_01_archive.htm

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #361 on: March 18, 2013, 10:30:59 AM »
Dear Potential Tester,
 
Due to the large number of private requests for the oscilloscope test ready boards, I am introducing the following qualifying procedure.
 
(1) The tester must have Digital Oscilloscopes of the necessary features (2 cchannel, capable of saving the data for EXCEL analysis)
(2) The tester must read the attached file and the link to overunity.com first.
(3) The tester must disclose his information (name/organization) and his commitment to post in the above overunity.com thread.
(4) The tester must post his equipment setup, the oscilloscope screens and the full oscilloscope analysis on the above overunity.com thread after the test - within two weeks of receiving the Board.
(5) The tester must be willing to show the Board and test procedure to qualified organizations in his locality.
 
If you still feel that you would like to participate in the test, please do the above.  I shall keep your mailing address confidential.
 
May the Almighty help us to benefit the World.
 
Lawrence Tseung

Offline powercat

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #362 on: March 18, 2013, 03:51:54 PM »
This is always the big problem, we get a claim of OU and then there is pages and pages of argument and debate about how to measure properly.

Lawrence should know better by now he's been claiming OU for too many years, and yet he never comes up with a self-runner for most people here that is the only test that counts, can your device runner itself, and in Lawrence's case the answer has always been No  >:(

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #363 on: March 18, 2013, 04:26:47 PM »
This is true, but it does not solve the problem. The problem is that the equation being used to compute power is not valid for an LED. It is only valid for resistors (and resistances that can be modeled as a resistor).
You are mistaken. The problem is your lack of understanding of how to make power measurements with an oscilloscope.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #364 on: March 18, 2013, 04:49:15 PM »
Dear Potential Tester,
 
Due to the large number of private requests for the oscilloscope test ready boards, I am introducing the following qualifying procedure.
 
(1) The tester must have Digital Oscilloscopes of the necessary features (2 cchannel, capable of saving the data for EXCEL analysis)
(2) The tester must read the attached file and the link to overunity.com first.
(3) The tester must disclose his information (name/organization) and his commitment to post in the above overunity.com thread.
(4) The tester must post his equipment setup, the oscilloscope screens and the full oscilloscope analysis on the above overunity.com thread after the test - within two weeks of receiving the Board.
(5) The tester must be willing to show the Board and test procedure to qualified organizations in his locality.
 
If you still feel that you would like to participate in the test, please do the above.  I shall keep your mailing address confidential.
 
May the Almighty help us to benefit the World.
 
Lawrence Tseung

Dear Lawrence:

If your boards are overunity, they should be overunity _no matter how they are measured_ as long as the measurement method itself is valid. You have just admitted that your boards must be measured in one certain way in order to show your results.

How about making your measurements using an actual, qualified laboratory power analyzer, that can measure input and output power simultaneously at high bandwidth and display results in real-time, like the Clarke-Hess 2330? This method is clearly superior to spreadsheeting results obtained _asynchronously_ from two low-end DSOs -- and it will show you the true state of affairs: your circuitboards aren't OU at all, only your _measurements_, or rather the computations made using them, are OU.

May the Almighty allow you to shed the scales from your eyes and perceive the true nature of affairs.
--TK

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #365 on: March 18, 2013, 05:02:50 PM »
@xeee, .99: I think there is a "failure to communicate" here. The input and output powers are each being measured here as the instantaneous product of current and voltage, and the current values are obtained from an Ohm's Law computation performed on the voltage drop across a known resistor. The "power dissipation" of a resistor or an LED when subjected to a given current isn't the issue at all and the ultimate load on the system being measured also doesn't matter.

A _true_ computation of synchronously obtained, instantaneous samples of current and voltage yields the correct instantaneous power, no matter what the "power factor" or phase angle or complexity of the waveforms concerned.

But... major problems are encountered when the samples aren't truly synchronous -- like when they are obtained with two different, low-end, sampling DSOs -- and when the sampling or computation intervals aren't "instantaneous", as when a sequence of samples taken with an instrument with finite, and low, bandwidth is put into a spreadsheet for further computation on an interval-by-interval basis.

Problems such as improper signal coupling, improper setting of the "trace invert" control, excessive wire lengths and poor routing, and low sample rates wrt the signal frequency all contribute to the illusion of overunity performance in the measurements. I stress that _concurrent validity_ is lacking here: there are no indications of any OU behaviour in this system, other than LTseung's computations.

ETA: Unless I am greatly mistaken, the scopes LTseung are using sample their channels consecutively. One channel is sampled and recorded, then the other channel is sampled and recorded. Hence, the samples aren't truly simultaneous but are separated in time by an interval determined by the scope's bandwidth settings.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #366 on: March 18, 2013, 09:44:49 PM »
Quote
Hi Lawrence:
Thank you for the 2 boards 85 &  86. We will have the engineers verify the COP of the boards.
Thanks again. regards Tom

@all
The results from this tester will be posted here as soon as they are ready.  Results from many other testers are expected within weeks.  Be patient.  Many packages have been sent out.  You can order from Mr. Zhou directly.  His email is zhouwei.1052@163.com.  Price will vary with quantity and shipping costs. 
 
@TK
Thank you for the detailed technical comments.  My posted oscilloscope analysis results came from using two Oscilloscopes - one to measure Input and one to measure Output.  Both of them are two channel Atten Oscilloscopes.  Some results are done sequentially - take the Input first and then take the Output.  Some results are done "simultaneously".  The stop button on both oscilloscopes were pressed at the same time.  Both methods yield similar results.   The Average Input and Output Power as computed did not change much.  No capacitors were in the circuit. 
 
@poynt99
Please use your 4 channel oscilloscope to do the tests on Broad 33.  It will be true simultaneous measurement.  After repeating my tests, you are welcome to do other tests on the board.  Reproduce more.  Using the 2n3055 instead of the 2n2222 will give you much higher Output Power.

@Tom
You have two boards - 85 and 86.  You can use the Output of 85 as Input to 86.  The resulting waveforms will convince all that the "lead-out mechanism" is much more complex than a simple superimposition.  Simple loopback or daisy-chain will not work.  The best arrangement is the Battery Charger for 12V car batteries using 2n3055.  You can try to develop that as a product and see if you can be the first on the Market...  Meanwhile, I shall refer to your group as tester for Board 85.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #367 on: March 18, 2013, 09:59:36 PM »
Hi Lawrence,
many thanbks for sending the 2 boards labeled "38".
They have come in and both are working on a fresh 1.5 Volts alkaline battery.

But I have not yet hooked up a scope,
cause I first need to finish my tax reports, that are already overdue..

So it will be a few days ahead when I will have time to test the boards.

But stay tuned.

Many thanks again.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #368 on: March 19, 2013, 08:43:36 PM »
Quote

Good for you, for introducing this qualifying procedure. However, that is not WHY I contacted you.
 
 
I was reading on your website about your progress as of 2007, 2009. I have an RFP from Xcel Energy, a very large energy company in the US which pays grants for research and for development-level (or any level) new machines or equipment that generates electricity cheaper and better than the current methods (currently the company does a lot of nuclear energy plants - one is 30 miles from my home - and some small amount of wind energy. The Governor of my state, the state of Minnesota, has a platform positive on alternative energy. Solar is very big this year. Wall street likes it. So there will be many projects from solar companies applying for grants this year. The total amount of grants will be about $30 million. Not a lot for what we are talking about but T H Moray and Nikola Tesla could have done a lot with that amount of money. I am letting people know whose work looks promising, about the existence of this money and encouraging them to look at the RFP and apply if they can.
 
The first file attached is the RFP for energy production research, that is work at either the developmental stage, the research stage or the commercial stage of a machine such as I saw described on your website.
 

 The second file attached is the RFP for higher ed research programs applied to projects either in the theoretical stage or the application of research to overcome milestones in the developmental or commercial stages
 

 Do you see now where I'm coming from? I was trying to gain a basis for discussing your projects on whatever terms you find poignant at this time, in order to explain how this money could help you and what is involved. A request for proposal (RFP) is something you are probably already familiar with....it opens at a certain time for those with proposals to consider it and then closes so the next phase can start (April 1,2013) the proposals that are considered are chosen by that date and thereafter qualified as to peer review available etc and documentation. Then contracts are negotiated with milestones for payment (they give you the money when you complete the phase of the project previously funded...see how that works? Like a construction contract.) the funding comes through after all contracts are negotiated and signed, early next year 2014. But the proposals have to be in to them in a week.
 
 
All the information you need to apply for this money is attached. I've read the proposals and talked to the RFP manager of the fund where the money comes from which is approved by our state legislature. There is an election year in 2014. If great strides were to be made in ZPE research and development it would help my state, it would trend the industry away from nuclear power (which may be killing people through weird cancers all over the world as well as polluting Mother Earth) and it would help our pro-alternative-energy-Governor get re-elected so that MORE money can come out for this work in the following years. As far as I know our state gives out the most money for this
 

 
I do not believe this is one state's or one country's job, to produce ZPE...I think it is every country's job to come up with whatever innocations they can....but some countries cannot do it for competition with oil and nuclear industries. My theory is if everyone does what they can, there will be too much innovation for the old industries to fight off and they will finally allow themselves to fade not being able to fight on so many fronts.

 
I saw the electrical/magnetic generator on your website and I believe magnetics is one of the adaptations of the principles of ZPE that can be developed. I am in touch with a number of engineers working on this, but most of them need money. So as a retired attorney in Minnesota with a love for this industry and the work of TH Moray and Nikola Tesla, I do what I can to find sources of money. Someday if/when I win the lottery or come up with some other largesse of my own I will fund this research and development, but today this is what I have to offer.

Now you do not need me anymore unless you want to ask questions about the RFP or sources in the area for peer review, etc. You have what you need if you want to pursue this.
 
Thanks for your offers, if I can find someone who can do this testing work it will likely be in the universities in St Cloud or Minneapolis at the University of Minnesota. If I find someone I will send them your way.

 
Good luck in your good work to help the planet. I hope you succeed.
 
Peace and Light
 
Chris Harbron
 

 
Another tester in USA.  I shall send a package to him.  Also one individual tester in California has received the package.  It looks like most of the packages arrived safely.  PhysicsProf is the exception - probably lost due to his moving.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #369 on: March 19, 2013, 09:19:48 PM »

 I stress that _concurrent validity_ is lacking here: .....

It is good that TK accepts that the oscilloscope method in measuring Input and Output Power is a scientific and valid way.  He is concerned about the experimental details and the accuracy of the Atten Oscilloscopes.  These are signs of good researcher.
 
There will be multiple testers with different (and better) oscilloscopes - especially those at top Universities.
 
My focus is on having ONE scientific approach to demonstrating OU with the particular boards.  Fortunately, I have many of these boards and can share them.  As far as "concurrent validity" is concerned, I leave it to the many testers or TK to suggest additional tests.  The ones that are likely to come out from my bedroom are:
 
(1) The 2n3055 oscilloscope test-ready board which can provide 10 times the Output Power.
(2) The 2n2222 boards driving toy motors instead of (or in addition to) simple LEDs.
(3) The Oscilloscope analysis on FLEET Battery Chargers.
 
I prefer to sow seeds.  It is likely that others will come out with the above much faster than I can.  Many will be able to produce commercial Lead-out Energy products.  My job is to open the floodgate.  It is essentially done in Hong Kong and China.....  The chance of Big Oil stopping the water is zero.  It may be a good idea to have a slower transition than sudden death of Big Oil.
 
*** Patrick Kelly also received the package in UK..... 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 12:29:19 AM by ltseung888 »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #370 on: March 19, 2013, 09:36:46 PM »
Hi Lawrence,

So it will be a few days ahead when I will have time to test the boards.

But stay tuned.

Many thanks again.

Regards, Stefan.

@Stefan: I hope the men in black will not get to you before you can test the mysterious boards.

May be the men in black control the German tax office and they will collect an enormous tax from you in order to prohibit a test?  ;)

I really hope that we see some intelligent tests of these boards.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #371 on: March 20, 2013, 03:28:45 AM »
I am sorry to say that, with all of my experience,  the JT circuit is NOT overunity.  As I have said in the past, it MIGHT just be a part of an overunity circuit but, not O.U. by itself.

I have to hand it to Lawrence for his efforts.

We shall see.

Bill

Offline PiCéd

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #372 on: March 20, 2013, 11:47:03 AM »
Is the joule thief would acts as a reducing consumption?
I have noticed that with the primary plus a secondary in the toroid, when I short circuits the secondary the intensity of the primary decreases.
This may also depend on the non-inductive resistance of the secondary.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #373 on: March 20, 2013, 12:33:41 PM »
I am sorry to say that, with all of my experience,  the JT circuit is NOT overunity.  As I have said in the past, it MIGHT just be a part of an overunity circuit but, not O.U. by itself.

I have to hand it to Lawrence for his efforts.

We shall see.

Bill

@Bill,
 
Can you tell us the oscilloscope you use and the circuit diagram you use to measure Input and Output Power?  I know that you have built many JT with impressive performance.  But have you used the oscilloscope to check them for OU?

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #374 on: March 21, 2013, 02:26:53 AM »

@Bill,
 
Can you tell us the oscilloscope you use and the circuit diagram you use to measure Input and Output Power?  I know that you have built many JT with impressive performance.  But have you used the oscilloscope to check them for OU?

I have a tektronics o'scope circa 1980's (2213 dual channel) but the real proof is that I have not been able to make a self-runner.  That, to me, is the real proof.  It would eliminate any arguments on measuring p in and p out, etc.  If it self runs...then we can look at the cop values.  If not, why waste time with  measurements?  Folks will only argue that they were done wrong anyway.

If it self-runs, then look to putting a value on it.

Bill

PS

Also it is good to note as Xee2 has said, that LEDs do not follow Ohm's law:

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scphys/courses/15b/2008/15b_2.pdf