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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 536228 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #345 on: March 15, 2013, 07:39:41 PM »

The fact that the capacitor voltage decreased over time proves that the board is consuming more power than it is returning to the power source (capacitor). Thus your "OU" is due to measurement errors. A capacitor is rechargeable. Any current flowing back into it will recharge it.
Please check your Physics before making such bold statements.....  In particular, check pulsing current into a super capacitor.....

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #346 on: March 15, 2013, 08:16:45 PM »
Please check your Physics before making such bold statements.....  In particular, check pulsing current into a super capacitor.....


If you think that this does not apply to your capacitor, then test with a normal capacitor. I have a degree in physics and, if you will check, you will find that pulsing current into capacitors will charge them up. I am only trying to be helpful. You are not making your measurements correctly.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #347 on: March 15, 2013, 08:33:44 PM »
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg29450#msg29450
 
Some of you may say that the Output Power with the 2n2222 board is low (in the 0.0x range).  The noise may be a factor.  The measurements cannot be trusted.
 
The above link shows the result of the 2n3055.  The Average Output Power is in the range of 0.5W.  That should be way above the noise level.

@xee2
There are at least 10 other testers receiving the oscilloscope test-ready boards.  Is it likely that they all make errors???  Let us wait for their results.
 
*** One tester in Canada just picked up the FLEET package with the oscilloscope test-ready board.  Let us see when the other nine get theirs. 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 04:10:22 AM by ltseung888 »

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #348 on: March 17, 2013, 05:28:06 AM »

@ ltseung888
The main problem with your measurements is that you are not computing the power going into the LED correctly. For a resistor the power used is amps through the resistor times voltage across the resistor. However, the LED is not a a resistor so this will not give the correct amount of power. If you do not believe this, then substiture a resistor for the LED in your circuit and you will find that your measurements no longer produce OU. I made the following video to try to explain this. I hope it helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcQxC46pyw

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #349 on: March 17, 2013, 07:18:31 AM »
Xee2:

Sorry you made a valiant attempt to cover the issue of the power dissipated in an LED including making a YouTube clip but you made a mistake.

You model the LED as a voltage source in series with a resistor.  You state that the power associated with the voltage source is zero because there is no resistance.  In fact that voltage source represents more power being dissipated in the LED.  Your model for the LED voltage source represents a voltage drop and any voltage drop times current flow means power is being dissipated.  So the voltage drop times the current through that voltage drop is what is also dissipated in the LED.

Total watts used by the LED = (Vled x i ) + (i x R)

If you use a DSO like Lawrence is doing then you can measure the power dissipated in the LED.  It's simply the current measurement that you get from measuring the voltage across a current sensing resistor times the voltage across the LED.  So there is no real difference in measuring the power dissipated in a resistor or an LED, you can use essentially the same technique.

However, there are limitations in what you can do with a DSO because of the sampling rate.  If you are trying to measure narrow spikes that could be a problem.  The DSO because of its sampling rate "sees" narrow spikes as a series of thin rectangles one stacked next to the other.  I don't know if this issue applies to Lawrence's case or not, but one should be aware that a DSO may have serious problems making measurements on very narrow spikes, whether they be voltage spikes or current spikes.

MileHigh

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #350 on: March 17, 2013, 01:49:53 PM »
@ ltseung888
The main problem with your measurements is that you are not computing the power going into the LED correctly. For a resistor the power used is amps through the resistor times voltage across the resistor. However, the LED is not a a resistor so this will not give the correct amount of power. If you do not believe this, then substiture a resistor for the LED in your circuit and you will find that your measurements no longer produce OU. I made the following video to try to explain this. I hope it helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcQxC46pyw

I shall let poynt99 answer your posts.  He already received one of the oscilloscope test ready boards and he has a 4 channel high end oscilloscope.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #351 on: March 17, 2013, 03:19:41 PM »
Result from tester for Board 88.  Two Atten 1052CA oscilloscopes were used.  One for Input and one for Output.
 
COP = -4.29
Average Input Power =-0.02133 watts
Average Output Power = 0.091479 watts
One experimental error was seen on the Input BMP file.  The CH2 (current) Invert function should have been turned ON.  The power of the Oscilloscope Analysis is - such error can be caught....

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #352 on: March 17, 2013, 05:27:45 PM »
@ ltseung888
The main problem with your measurements is that you are not computing the power going into the LED correctly. For a resistor the power used is amps through the resistor times voltage across the resistor. However, the LED is not a a resistor so this will not give the correct amount of power. If you do not believe this, then substiture a resistor for the LED in your circuit and you will find that your measurements no longer produce OU. I made the following video to try to explain this. I hope it helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcQxC46pyw
Go back and re-read the posts I made explaining to you how power is computed by these scope measurements.

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE what type of component is being measured, the computed power will be correct, in a perfect world that is. There are various subtle factors that will skew the measurement making it erroneous, if one is not aware of them and corrects for them.

Offline totoalas

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #353 on: March 17, 2013, 05:57:16 PM »
red LED says:         2013/02/24 at 09:17What is the purpose of the 0 ohm resistor?  Wouldn’t a direct connection be the same?Reply
(http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/705894f1aadebb363edefef69e00a5bc?s=32&d=retro&r=PG)admin says:         2013/02/24 at 09:45Yes, for measuring the lux, I shorted the 1 ohm resistor so that the LED output would be the actual light output.  For measuring the LED current, I removed the jumper from the 1 ohm resistor.  For each millivolt I measured across the 1 ohm with the DMM, it was the same as 1 milliamp LED current.  After the measurement, the short can be used for full light output or the 1 ohm resistor can be removed and the 0 ohm jumper put in its place.   THIS IS A QUOTE FROM RED LED 

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #354 on: March 17, 2013, 06:41:40 PM »
poynt99
The equation "watts = amps x volts" is only valid for resistors in DC circuits. See http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elepow.html
This is the calculation the scopes are making. It is only valid when measuring power across resistors. If you doubt this, replace the LED with a resistor and you will see that there is no OU.
 
 

Offline poynt99

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #355 on: March 17, 2013, 07:23:51 PM »
poynt99
The equation "watts = amps x volts" is only valid for resistors in DC circuits. See http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elepow.html
When measuring DC, the amps and volts measurements can be "average", "rms" (they are the same for DC) or an "averaged-instantaneous" measurement. The result will be the same.

Quote
This is the calculation the scopes are making.
No, you are mistaken. The scope is making an "averaged-instantaneous" measurement only. The scope is taking many simultaneous instantaneous measurements of current and voltage. Then the scope is set up to multiply each simultaneous current and voltage measurement to produce an instantaneous power p(t). When an averaging function is applied to p(t) (either internal to the scope, or via spreadsheet computation), the average power is the result.

Now, please study what I have posted until you actually understand it, or do your own research if you do not believe me (Attached is a good place to start). Until then, please refrain from posting misleading information as to how to make power measurements with an oscilloscope.

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #356 on: March 17, 2013, 07:52:48 PM »
When measuring DC, the amps and volts measurements can be "average", "rms" (they are the same for DC) or an "averaged-instantaneous" measurement. The result will be the same.
This is true, but it does not solve the problem. The problem is that the equation being used to compute power is not valid for an LED. It is only valid for resistors (and resistances that can be modeled as a resistor).

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #357 on: March 17, 2013, 07:55:12 PM »
@ ltseung888
I have spent over a day trying to help you understand what is wrong with the measurements. It seems I have not succeeded. Perhaps it will eventually sink in. Now I have other things to do. Have fun with your "OU" circuit. Eventually you will realize that it is not OU. Then perhaps you will find my comments helpful.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #358 on: March 17, 2013, 09:41:16 PM »
Another tester in USA?
 
I would be glad to cooperate with this effort to show the world how well ZPE works.
I am in the U.S.
Chris XXXXXX
Thank you for the work you are doing.
XXX

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Lawrence Tseung <ltseung@hotmail.com> wrote:
Please give me your mailing address.
 
If you are willing to post your test results on the Internet - in overunity.com for example, I shall be happy to send you a prototype board FREE for testing and confirmation.
 
Let us try to benefit the World together.
 
Lawrence

 
@poynt99
Thank you for your explanations to xee2.  I shall focus on training the many interested groups in Hong Kong and China.  Hong Kong can lead the World in Lead-out Energy research.  Since I am also an US Citizen, an oscilloscope test ready board will be sent to President Obama via proper channels - US Consulate in Hong Kong, United Nations in New York??? 
 
Thank you also for providing the bench for me to dump my preliminary work and thoughts (some are now known to be mistaken) at OUR for these years.

Offline Rodelu

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #359 on: March 17, 2013, 10:22:41 PM »

an oscilloscope test ready board will be sent to President Obama