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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 537047 times)

Offline SchubertReijiMaigo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #330 on: March 06, 2013, 04:16:20 PM »
This is the second attempt to do the 2 stage JT.  To my surprise, the Input Vpp was higher than the Output Vpp.  The COP was -1.24.  It appears that the 2 stage JT circuit has a much more complex feedback mechanism than simple addition.
 
MORE RESEARCH NEEDED.


Comparing a peak power doesn't give you the total energy for a cycle (say one second for example).
You need to make integration (computing the area of the power of your signal in your graph).
If the area of the output power is superior then you have OU, I say that because you can have a huge peak power during a brief time and not having OU ! With a peak power you can't see OU.
I never understood why you concentrate so much on peak power but in reality energy is also linked to time: How many Joule I have consumed during a definite time and how many I have produced during that same period !
Although I'm not a specialist but why not try that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezium_rule


Cordially, SRM.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #331 on: March 07, 2013, 01:11:38 AM »
What can you do with Board 71 (and Board 33, 38, 39 etc.)?
 
Apparently, Board 70 was an exception.  The Output Voltage, Current and Power were many times higher than all other boards from Shenzhen.  It will be sent back for detailed examination.
 
Since I already twisted out the LED on Board 71 so that all Output goes to the connected LOAD at B1 and B3, I decided to test its limites.
(1) It can light up the 12 LED strips that normally will require 12V DC to light.  That is not surprising as I had demonstrated that before.
(2) It can light up many such strips.  I used up all the strips available in my bedroom.  A phone call to a tester in Hong Kong also lighted up many thousands of LEDs in such arrangement.  The joke at the moment is that we may be able to light up the millions of 3V LEDs in the whole retail shops in Shenzhen.  We shall see.
(3) The Input is from the DC Power Supply at 2V and too small a current to be indicated.  The reason of keeping the voltage at 2V is not to burn out the 2n2222.  I shall be more daring with the 2n3055.
 
I shall double and triple check my oscilloscope analysis before posting it.  It is too unbelievable.....  Is it possible that such a simple board can light up millions of 3V LEDs?  Can it be compared to the match that light up (burn up) the entire forest???
 
@poynt99 and other testers:  the Board is going to be much more interesting than simple OU or showing negative average input power.  Have fun....

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #332 on: March 07, 2013, 07:24:26 AM »
Now the oscilloscope analysis on Board 71 after double and triple checking.  There is little chance of experimental or equipment error.
 
(1) The New COP is -6.47.  The negative sign comes from INPUT.  This is a large increase in COP.
 
(2) There are sharp Negative Output Current peaks.  The more LEDs I put on, the sharper the peaks.  No such negative current peaks were observed with just 1 LED.  It looks like when the board needs more energy, it automatically goes out and gets more - showing that fact from the negative current peaks.
 
(3) The Average Input Power is still negative and the numerical value changed little.  We are NOT drawing more energy from the DC Power Supply to light many more LEDs.  Is the source of this extra energy - lead-out energy?
 
With the 2n2222, the LEDs did not reach the full brightness.  Will use the 2n3055 next.  Can the 2n3055 board be the more powerful match giving more brightness?  We are not restricted to the 2n3055 or transistors.  Other rapid pulsing mechanism may also be fine....   

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #333 on: March 07, 2013, 07:48:17 PM »
deleted by xee2
 
 

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #334 on: March 08, 2013, 12:42:21 AM »
Another tester from Canada.
 
Dear XXX,
 

Two 2n2222 oscilloscope test ready boards are on their way to you.  Make sure you read the thread in overunity.com to know how to test them.  The two boards can be put into  a 2 stage fashion to clearly demonstrate OU and negative input power.  Get help if needed.  Email me your results or post them on the forums.

 
The result will convince any venture group or research organizations.  Follow the overunity.com thread.

 
May the Almighty guide us to benefit the World.

 
Lawrence

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #335 on: March 13, 2013, 07:15:37 AM »
Mr. Zhou is getting ready to sell Lead-out Energy products to the Market.
 
See Photo and pdf file. 
 
Instead of my giving gifts to different organizations, any one can order the guaranteed OU products from him.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #336 on: March 14, 2013, 01:32:15 PM »
Mr. Zhou used more than one make of oscilloscope to test Board 58.  Both UNI-T and Atten oscilloscopes showed COP > 1.
 
Product should be ready within weeks.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #337 on: March 14, 2013, 03:00:27 PM »
What, exactly, is your definition of "OU" here, Lawrence?

It certainly cannot mean "overunity" in the way that we normally understand it, because your boards aren't making any excess energy and are in fact less efficient in lighting their lights with the battery or cap stored energy than some other circuits we've seen in the JT threads.

Your boards are demonstrating several things: poor layout and construction, measurement errors, over-reliance on digital "numbers in boxes", bad experimental design and procedure, and the gullibility of uneducated masses, along with more than a little greed and cynicism. They are NOT demonstrating any kind of overunity performance. Your _only_ evidence that supports your claim is to be found in your scope measurements.... the actual performance of your circuit belies your claims, since your batteries/capacitors DO run down and do so in normal time intervals for the light output seen. This failure is technically called a lack of "concurrent validity"... that is, other measures and tests do not agree with the interpretation of the spreadsheeted scope data.

Please show a photo or video of your 2n2222a circuit lighting "thousands of LEDs" for a significant time on a AA battery or similar power source.


Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #338 on: March 14, 2013, 08:42:13 PM »
The oscilloscope analysis results for board 58 done by Mr. Zhou at his Office.
 
The COP was -31.94.  However, the Average Input Power = -0.00075watts 
The Average Output Power =0.02388watts
 
The good thing about the experiment was that both the UNI-T and Atten Oscilloscopes gave same results.  The possibility of equipment error was zero.
 
@TK
Let the other testers with their oscilloscopes display the results of the "guaranteed OU boards" first.  When we have absolutely confirmed results from multiple sources, we can then show the next prototypes.  There is no need to jump now.  Many testers, replicators, improvers will show the very impressive results you hope for.  Just be patient.  I am a poor experimenter - bad eye sight, bad hearing, shaky hands and pressing wrong buttons etc.  The testers are very different.  Let them do their job.....
 
Many top guns such as lasersaber have already demonstrated "OU" devices.  I just use the "guaranteed OU board" and the Lead-out energy theory to back them up (or sit on their shoulders).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 01:21:46 AM by ltseung888 »

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #339 on: March 15, 2013, 01:14:54 AM »
What, exactly, is your definition of "OU" here, Lawrence?
My definition of "OU" is that - a scientific instrument such as the oscilloscope can detect that the Average Output Power is greater than the Average Input Power.
 
The Average Input Power can be from a battery or a DC Power supply over many seconds, minutes, hours or days.
 
The Average Output Power is pulsed (not DC or AC) and must be measured by the averaging of the product of the Instantaneous Voltage and Instantaneous Current over many sample points.  The only tool that can show the waveforms and capture the Instantaneous values for analysis is the Oscilloscope (my limited knowledge).
 
Another important indication of "OU" is the occurance of Negative Power.  For example, Negative Input Power indicates that more Power flows back to the battery than supplied by the battery.  Energy must be flowing from some external source other than the battery.  That is the essence of Lead-out Energy.

Offline hoptoad

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #340 on: March 15, 2013, 07:09:42 AM »
snip...
 For example, Negative Input Power indicates that more Power flows back to the battery than supplied by the battery.
 snip...

If there really was more power flowing back to the battery than being supplied by the battery, then an oscillascope would not even be required to read and analyze the complex waveforms.

The battery would never discharge. In fact, even with the leds as loads, if the power back into the battery were more than it was supplying to the circuit, then eventually if would either explode, or fail catastrophically some other way, due to prolonged over charging and over voltage.

In the meantime a simple analogue voltmeter would suffice for average readings, which would show the supply voltage either rising or falling, over the duration of a long test run.

If the battery is eventually discharging, however long it takes, then the power back into the battery must be less than the power it supplies to the circuit.

This doesn't rule out the possibilty that the resultant power consumed by the whole circuit (supplied power minus reactive power), might be less than the lumen output power of the leds. But proving that possibility requires another, different, set of measurements for power consumption versus power output comparisons.

Cheers

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #341 on: March 15, 2013, 08:19:43 AM »
If there really was more power flowing back to the battery than being supplied by the battery, then an oscillascope would not even be required to read and analyze the complex waveforms.

The battery would never discharge. In fact, even with the leds as loads, if the power back into the battery were more than it was supplying to the circuit, then eventually if would either explode, or fail catastrophically some other way, due to prolonged over charging and over voltage.

In the meantime a simple analogue voltmeter would suffice for average readings, which would show the supply voltage either rising or falling, over the duration of a long test run.

If the battery is eventually discharging, however long it takes, then the power back into the battery must be less than the power it supplies to the circuit.

This doesn't rule out the possibilty that the resultant power (supplied power minus reactive power) consumed by the whole circuit might be less than the lumen output power of the leds. But proving that possibility requires another, different, set of measurements for power consumption versus power output comparisons.

Cheers
Please look at the Input waveform from the oscilloscope.  The voltage changed very little around the 1.xx V mark.  Such a small change is usually not enough to recharge a battery.  The AA battery used normally is NOT rechargeable.  In other words, in all the tests shown, we did not use the feedback power for recharging.  Thus slow draining of the battery is not a surprise.
 
We (or someone else, Bedini, G-LED?) shall soon announce a 12V car battery recharger using Lead-out Energy.  The car battery is rechargeable.  There will be smoothing, rectifying and protection circuits to recharge one or more 12V car batteries on the Output.  The Output may also have Secondary circuits.  Such a circuit was found to work (with problems) by us in 2010 and was described in Chapter 5 of Patrick Kelly's Book.  The problems are likely to be resolved totally soon.....

*** one new technology worth watching is from MIT:
http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/ultracapacitor.html

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #342 on: March 15, 2013, 08:35:11 AM »
Since I already leaked out the 12V car battery recharger information, I shall try to benefit the World more with the use of one or more capacitors.  They are a great help in the car battery recharger.
 
Board 55 has a 2.3V 10F capacitor connected in parallel with the battery or DC Power Supply.  Board 55 happened to be the one that could light up the LED for 9 hours (blinking and dimming towards the end).
 
The COP was -3.43.  The Input Power was -0.01075 Watts.  The Output Power was 0.03684 Watts.  (with DC Power Supply ON).
 
The COP was still negative and increasing.  The Output Voltage Frequency also increased from 4KHz to over 30KHz.  (With DC Power Supply turned off).  Adding a capacitor at the appropriate place did have value.  (See the many videos from TK).

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #343 on: March 15, 2013, 02:18:10 PM »
Significance of Board 55:
 
(1) Board 55 has a Capacitor connected in parallel with the battery or DC power supply..
(2) When Battery is disconnected, the Capacitor continues to act as INPUT to circuit.
(3) The COP was still negative with the numerical value greater than 1.  The negative sign came from average INPUT power.
(4) This conclusively showed that much of the energy lighting the LEDs came from Lead-out Energy.
(5) Thanks to the Atten Oscilloscope.  The 12V battery charger using Lead-out Energy is a FACT.

Offline xee2

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #344 on: March 15, 2013, 06:47:56 PM »

Board 55 has a 2.3V 10F capacitor connected in parallel with the battery or DC Power Supply.  Board 55 happened to be the one that could light up the LED for 9 hours (blinking and dimming towards the end).
 


The fact that the capacitor voltage decreased over time proves that the board is consuming more power than it is returning to the power source (capacitor). Thus your "OU" is due to measurement errors. A capacitor is rechargeable. Any current flowing back into it will recharge it.