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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 461806 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #150 on: December 04, 2012, 11:24:35 PM »
 Let me summarize what I am claiming in this post:

(1)    If we can lead-out or bring-in energy from the surrounding, there is NO violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy.
 
(2)    We can lead-out kinetic energy of air molecules.  A water rocket gets colder after firing.  Some of the kinetic energy of the air molecules is used to propel the rocket and cools the surrounding.  The Hydro is such an application.
 
(3)    A string instrument with a resonance box sounds much louder.  The traditional explanation was that the louder sound was only a more efficient use of the energy.  No additional energy was involved.  The NEW explanation is that kinetic energy of air molecules is brought-in to produce the louder sound.
 
(4)    If we can bring-in kinetic energy of air molecules at sound resonance, we should be able to bring-in electron motion energy at electromagnetic resonance.  See the attached diagram.
 
(5)    If we add an appropriate capacitor to a standard Joule Thief, we may be able to turn it into an overunity device.
 
(6)    In the particular case of the Lead-out Energy Research Kit from BSI Energy Holdings Limited of Hong Kong, a 2.3V 10F capacitor was added to a 2n2222 Joule Thief with a 28 turns, one-inch toroid.  The 38 LEDs remained ON for an average of >10 minutes after the battery was removed.
 
(7)    From the waveform comparison and analysis on an Atten 2-channel oscilloscope, the Output Power was found to exceed the Input Power when the battery was removed and when the Output Voltage Frequency increased from 1.4KHz to 2KHz or above.
 
(8 )    Thus, in applications such as battery charger and Forever Lighted Lamps, we can stay on this range and use the lead-out electron motion energy.  Virtually unlimited, pollution-free and cheap energy is no longer a dream.  It is a reality.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #150 on: December 04, 2012, 11:24:35 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #151 on: December 05, 2012, 03:55:31 AM »
Most people hope to achieve both precision and accuracy.
Yes, that is right. But if the choice is for one or the other, choose accuracy.
Quote

My eyesight is poor and my hands are shaky.  I only hope not to pour too much wine on the floor.

You and me both. I also want to keep face, for you and for me. Therefore we must pour very carefully indeed, with great accuracy as well as with as much precision as we can muster. Let's try to pour the wine into the right glasses, and don't worry too much about a few drops mismeasured out of a full liter bottle.
Quote
I would like to bring in the topic of "negative power".  This will show up lots of times in the Input and Output Power measurements.  What is your interpretation? ??? ?
 
This can be a result of many causes and it is nothing to get excited about... yet. For example, the use of AC coupling will introduce a false, negative voltage in your readings, which when multiplied by a positive current value, will yield a negative power... and it's wrong. Another way, illustrated in my Steorn video showing the negative-going integral, results from just the type of problem I talked about above: timing. Specifically "probe skew". Since I was using an electronic current probe with its own time constant that might have been different from the voltage probe's, the current and voltage readings from the spiky signals were not exactly synchronzised. This can also cause that multiplication, and the integration based on it, to go "skewey" and produce a false indication of negative power, which when integrated gives the negative-going integral if the negative power is of long enough duration and great enough magnitude. Does your oscilloscope have a "probe deskew" function? Many digital scopes do. With your relatively low frequency and long risetime spikes, and your plain voltage probes on both channels, this probe skew issue is unlikely to be the cause of your negative power readings. A third cause, which can be seen in the Ainslie case, is improper filtering of the supply voltage signal. With inductances to be considered, even that of interconnecting wiring, the probes may not give you a true reflection of either the waveform shape, or the actual voltages in the circuit. To overcome this problem one must use special, non-inductive current monitoring resistors, very good circuit component layout, and proper probe hookups to properly filtered signals. Your system might be suffering from this problem.
But I think, right now, that the most significant cause is your prior incorrect use of AC coupling for your voltage readings. Do you still get significant negative power readings now that you know to use DC coupling on your data gathering?
Quote
It looks liky that the Christmas Present to the World in 2012 is the confirmation of lead-out energy via two oscilloscopes.  Pumping out experimental data will not be a problem now.
I am worried about you, Lawrence. You should worry more about "testing" than "confirmation", because you must always allow for the fact.... however remote and unlikely.... that you could be wrong, and that your experiments could be pumping out not usable and accurate data, but rather very precise garbage. Your overconfident statements make it sound like you are less of a scientist and more of a public-relations or salesman type of fellow. Nothing is wrong with that.... except that you should be quite sure that you really possess what you are trying to sell, and obtaining that assurance is the responsibility of the scientist in you, not the advertising executive.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #152 on: December 05, 2012, 04:32:21 AM »
Let me summarize what I am claiming in this post:

(1)    If we can lead-out or bring-in energy from the surrounding, there is NO violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy.
IF is known as the biggest word in the English language, because it contains so very much speculation. If pigs had wings and takeoff clearance from the tower.... could they fly?
Quote

(2)    We can lead-out kinetic energy of air molecules.  A water rocket gets colder after firing.  Some of the kinetic energy of the air molecules is used to propel the rocket and cools the surrounding.  The Hydro is such an application.
Wrong. Fluids and gases cool when they expand; this is an adiabatic process and has nothing to do with the thrust of the water rocket. It is the reverse of the fact that compressing a gas makes it hotter. Adiabatic: thermodynamically reversible with no change in actual _energy content_ due to the temperature/pressure changes.
Quote

(3)    A string instrument with a resonance box sounds much louder.  The traditional explanation was that the louder sound was only a more efficient use of the energy.  No additional energy was involved.  The NEW explanation is that kinetic energy of air molecules is brought-in to produce the louder sound.
Where is the empirical support for your New explanation? What experiments have been done to _rule out_ that explanation and have failed to do so? Link please?
If you do not have empirical support for your contentions like that above, please make sure that you label them clearly as unproven conjectures that are still awaiting experimental exploration.
Quote

(4)    If we can bring-in kinetic energy of air molecules at sound resonance, we should be able to bring-in electron motion energy at electromagnetic resonance.  See the attached diagram.
IF. And the attached diagram makes no sense to me, because the air pressure at the back of the cabin of an airplane moving even supersonically is the same as it is at the front of the cabin.... ask anyone who travelled on Concorde before it was retired.
Quote

(5)    If we add an appropriate capacitor to a standard Joule Thief, we may be able to turn it into an overunity device.
 
And you may not be able to. Personally, I would bet on the latter, not the former.
Quote
(6)    In the particular case of the Lead-out Energy Research Kit from BSI Energy Holdings Limited of Hong Kong, a 2.3V 10F capacitor was added to a 2n2222 Joule Thief with a 28 turns, one-inch toroid.  The 38 LEDs remained ON for an average of >10 minutes after the battery was removed.
Big deal. Like I said, I and the other builders on the JT threads here have JTs that _far_ outperform that set of claims. Do we then have much better OU devices than you do?
Quote

(7)    From the waveform comparison and analysis on an Atten 2-channel oscilloscope, the Output Power was found to exceed the Input Power when the battery was removed and when the Output Voltage Frequency increased from 1.4KHz to 2KHz or above.
I believe we have decided that your present data sets are unusable because you gathered your input data on separate trial runs from your output data. Furthermore, in this JT circuit it is a natural consequence that frequency increases as supply voltage dwindles.
 I don't believe that your present data support your claim here of output power exceeding input power.
Quote
(8 )    Thus, in applications such as battery charger and Forever Lighted Lamps, we can stay on this range and use the lead-out electron motion energy.  Virtually unlimited, pollution-free and cheap energy is no longer a dream.  It is a reality.
Conclusions based on false premises are false. You are correct, though, that virtually unlimited pollution free energy is not a dream. I think it's more like an adult fantasy.

Come, let us calculate together.

You have some givens: You are starting with a 10 F capacitor charged initially to 2.3 Volts. We know that a 2n2222 JT will run on as little as 0.45 volts or less.... let's use 0.5 volts as the level at which you decide to recharge the cap. And we know that the energy on a capacitor is given by E=CV2/2. We also know that one Watt is one Joule per second, and that there are 600 seconds in ten minutes.

Initial energy, then, is E=(10F)(2.3V)2/2 = about 26.5 Joules.
Final energy is E= (10F)(0.5V)2/2 = about 1.25 Joules, remaining on the capacitor at the end of the run.

This means the cap has supplied just about 25 Joules to the circuit over the time interval.

There are 600 seconds in ten minutes, and a WATT is one Joule PER second.... and 25 Joules PER 600 seconds is 25/600 = 0.04167 W or almost 42 milliWatts _average power_ for that full ten minutes.

You have 38 LEDs, so that allows each LED 42 mW/38LEDs = a bit over one milliWatt continuous average power for the full ten minutes PER EACH LED.

Now.... I think there are folks in this thread who know that you can take 1 milliWatt of average continuous power, chop it up into a 10 percent ON duty cycle with 90 percent OFF.... and now you have EACH LED receiving 10 mW for one tenth of the time... or 20 mW for five percent of the time ..... and lighting brightly, just like any JT does it, by concentrating the power into short, intense spikes that the eye then merges into the appearance of continuous bright light.

Your numbers do not indicate OU at all, nor even particularly good JT performance.

Now what is needed is the precise and accurate measurement of the battery energy used to stuff that initial 26.5 Joules into the capacitor in the first place.

Please....  everybody check my work, I am prone to dropping decimal points or forgetting to divide by 2. Let me know if there are any errors so that I can correct them right away. I would not want to mislead anyone by allowing bad mathematics and bogus calculations to remain uncorrected, for years, or to appear in any daft manuscripts that I might attempt to publish.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #152 on: December 05, 2012, 04:32:21 AM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #153 on: December 05, 2012, 05:06:16 AM »
that 'First Divine Revelation Concept' disturbs me.

it doesn't belong in a scientific area of this forum.

if you want keep your work scientifically professional I might suggest leaving out such content.

unless of course you really do wanna be known as a nut and a screwball.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #154 on: December 05, 2012, 05:22:46 AM »
@TK


I wish you have the experimental set up in front of you.


I have two pictures for you.  The first is the two scope setup.  The Capacitor is connected across the battery.
The second is the INPUT VOLTAGE waveform immediately when the battery was disconnected.  The INPUT VOLTAGE waveform should then be interpreted as the voltage of the capacitor.  It was NOT 2.3V.


*** Just checked.  The Average Input Voltage across the Capacitor immediately after disconnecting the battery was 0.369V.  After 20 minutes, that value was 0.345V.  If we repeat the TK calculation, we have an overunity JT???!!! 


Your educated guess is good.  It will prepare me for the inevitable "examination" in front of the academics.  So far, I have solid data and answers.  Some data can be obtained as soon as I see your comments.  Thank you.


From the actual experimental data, time lag between measurement of Input and Output of a few seconds would not invalidate the result.  The actual time lag in pressing the two buttons at the two separate DSO should not be more than 1 second.  The theoretical discussion of accuracy and precision is good but in practice, it does not matter.


*** We are not comparing apples in different seasons.  We are comparing apples picked within hours or at most days.  The INDICATION experiments are valid.  We shall have 30 top Universities with their top of the line DSOs to confirm and verify.  We shall also have thousands of Lead-out Energy Research Kits available for any one interested in doing the testing.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #154 on: December 05, 2012, 05:22:46 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #155 on: December 05, 2012, 09:15:41 AM »
The obtaining of Negative Power.


The Average Input Power Points in magic.xls was obtained with the connection unchanged.  The readings were taken at one minute intervals.  The voltage waveform always stayed positive.  However, the current waveform started getting negative.  That gave rise to the negative power results.


The circuit was not changed.  If we accepted the positive results, we should also accept the negative results.  Thus the TK explanations of "possible errors" would not apply.


That led to the inevitable conclusion - the circuit turned into a feedback circuit.  The lead-out energy gave more energy back to the source.  If the source could accept such energy, the device might self-run. 


With the two oscilloscopes and the set up in the demo Center, I can get my team to do many more runs with different loads, different toroids, different transistors etc.  All these will be documented and make available to the top Universities for verification. (Or whoever wants to do the double or triple checks.)


The Divine Wine is being poured out.  Amen.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2012, 09:33:35 AM »
@TK,


For the experiment on sound resonance leading out kinetic energy of air molecules, please read:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg24854#msg24854


Divine Revelation 1 start at A28.  The photos of the experiment are in there.


For the arrow diagram, please review the textbooks on kinetic theory of gases.  An imaginary cube contains many bouncing balls with different velocities.  They collide with each other and with the walls of the container.  To simplify the conceptual picture, we can let all such bouncing balls have same velocity and align in perfect +X, -X, +Y, -Y, +Z and -Z directions.


You can google "kinetic theory of Gases" if you no longer keep the textbooks.


Keep your excellent comments coming.   I may not agree but they help to prepare me for the inevitable examinations.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2012, 09:33:35 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2012, 10:55:16 AM »
Lawrence.... To use the method I outlined above you must measure the capacitor voltage BEFORE you hook it to the circuit, and then AFTER you unhook it at the end of the run. In addition you do not show any capacitor on your circuit diagram, nor do you indicate the type and number and connection of your multiple LEDs.

Nevertheless, I DO have _almost_ your experiment in front of me. I only have 3 Farads of capacitance though... I cannot afford to buy more, nobody is funding me with a Platinum Visa card. But I have the complete JT 2n2222 circuit with the toroid and 38 LEDs for the load, and the current viewing resistors in place, etc. And my results do not agree with yours.

If you take a 1.5 volt battery and hook it to a 10 F capacitor for some seconds, the capacitor should come up to nearly the voltage of the battery. That will represent the energy in the capacitor. When you then hook that cap to your running circuit, the voltage will be drawn down.... but I am surprised that it is by that much. I confess that I do not understand your voltage readings, because they do not correspond to mine when I use a 3 F , 5.5 V capacitor (all that I have available).  When I hook the fully discharged cap to the 1.3 volt NiMH battery through a 1 ohm CVR, it takes about 30 seconds for the cap to come up to just under the battery's no-load voltage. The bank of 38 LEDs lights up as the voltage rises past about 0.65 volts and by the time the cap is fully charged to the battery voltage the LEDs are glowing nicely. I don't think a 2n2222 JT will even start oscillating at 0.37 volts.  At the time of the disconnect of the battery, The Cap Has The Same Voltage As The Battery, nearly. And when I remove the battery, it takes about two minutes to drop down to the JT shutoff voltage of about 0.45 volts. Since you have over three times the capacitance it should take your system about 3 times as long to run down. But....my system _never_ gets down to 0.37 volts! It stops dropping when the JT oscillations stop, at about 0.45 volts with this transistor and coil. (EDIT: or rather, the voltage drops very slowly once the LEDs are too dim to see; after ten minutes or so my caps have drained down to that 0.37-0.38 V level almost exactly and remain there for a long time... but that might just be leaky caps, one of mine is nearly ten years old.)

So I don't understand your voltage graph at all, it does not correspond to what I get, and the fact that you have a 10F cap instead of my 3 is not the reason. I have the same circuit as you, the same transistor, the same base resistor, the same LED load and the same toroid with the same number of turns (I think).  In fact your graph looks more like a _current_ graph obtained by monitoring the voltage drop across a resistor. Are you sure you don't have your files mixed up?

Please explain exactly how long you leave the battery hooked to the capacitor to charge it, and also tell me how your 38 LEDs are wired. Are they all in parallel, or what? Mine are in two rows of 19 in parallel, with these rows in series.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2012, 11:15:45 AM »
You are putting up your... statements.... faster than I can deal with them.
There is nothing in the kinetic theory of gases (I do keep the textbooks by the way) that allows for or predicts what you are claiming for "leading out" the energy of air molecules in the way that you describe. Your experiment does not support your contention, either. But let us please not change the subject.

There is something wrong with your measurements, as your recent voltage graph and my own experiments, just now happening, show.

Do you have a video camera? Can you take a short video of your scope, making that trace under the conditions you describe, including all the scope settings? Or just please do the measurement again, but before you hook up the battery measure its voltage. Then tell me exactly how long it was hooked to the 10F capacitor and measure the voltage on the capacitor WITH A DMM. You can leave the DMM hooked to the cap while your circuit is running, to monitor the voltage as it drops. This will not interfere with the circuit if your DMM is a good one with high input impedance, as all modern ones are. I am sorry to be so picky but I really want to see some confirmation of that voltage trace under the conditions you gathered it.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2012, 11:15:45 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #159 on: December 05, 2012, 02:08:30 PM »
@TK,
 
We can make this very simple.  Tell me what kind of DSOs you have and how many.  I shall get one of the oscilloscope-test-ready boards for you.  Before I ship it, I shall have my team double and triple check it just like the ones for the top universities.  The data will be posted on the Internet.
 
All you need to do is to hook up the connections as indicated and show the analysis from your DSO.  I can justify it as a rehearsal before the sending of such boards to the Universities.
 
In resonance experiments, one different component may give you very different results.  Let us not waste time and energy.
 

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #160 on: December 05, 2012, 02:54:01 PM »
@TK,
 
We can make this very simple.  Tell me what kind of DSOs you have and how many.  I shall get one of the oscilloscope-test-ready boards for you.  Before I ship it, I shall have my team double and triple check it just like the ones for the top universities.  The data will be posted on the Internet.
 
All you need to do is to hook up the connections as indicated and show the analysis from your DSO.  I can justify it as a rehearsal before the sending of such boards to the Universities.
 
In resonance experiments, one different component may give you very different results.  Let us not waste time and energy.
You are not being cooperative. You are not answering my questions nor are you explaining the things I want you to explain. Let us not waste time and energy talking about resonance when you have none: your scope traces do not reflect a resonant condition in your transformer. If you had resonance in your transformer your output would look very different. Did you not watch my video where I resonate the JT coil? As it is... your output looks exactly like mine.

But OK, I will play your game. I don't want you to send me anything, though. I just want you to do some testing in parallel with me, right here and now. I'll test my board and you test yours and we will compare values and scopeshots and all of that. OK?  The first thing I want you to do is to reproduce that voltage measurement graph and tell me exactly the things I have asked for. Surely this is easier and faster than you trying to send me something from your location, and it will be more instructive as well.

For your information, I have available a Tektronix DPO4034 4-channel oscilloscope, with live math capability. Unfortunately only the one. I also have available a Clarke-Hess 2330 power analyzer and some very sensitive high impedance voltmeters. These instruments do not belong to me and I have to travel some little distance to use them, so I do not do so casually. I do not yet feel the need for a DSO in analyzing your system, though, and your reliance on one is actually quite depressing, since it's pretty clear that you are just learning how to use a scope in the first place and you still are not clear on the relationship between power and energy.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #160 on: December 05, 2012, 02:54:01 PM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #161 on: December 05, 2012, 03:49:27 PM »
I believe that we should at least have oscilloscope-test-ready boards with similar characteristics before our discussions can be fruitful.
 
My measurements are to be done in 20 minute run intervals.  Your board died in about 2 minutes.  Please let me send you a properly tuned FLEET.  The top Universities wanted and demanded that.  I believe that it is the right thing to do.  Asking me to accept the result of your 2-minute board as authorative is too much!!!!!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #162 on: December 05, 2012, 11:29:55 PM »
Quote
Asking me to accept the result of your 2-minute board as authorative is too much!!!!!

And it is something that I have not done.

I have asked you to explain to me the exact conditions under which your last scopeshot was obtained. I have also asked you to do some simple experiments in parallel with me, so that we both may understand what is going on. I have never stated that my work is "authorative" (sic), but rather that yours is NOT. There is a big difference there. Unless I can duplicate your conditions I cannot proceed, clearly. And I DO NOT WANT you to send me a board at all, because there will be many accusations resulting from that action should I accept. What I will consent to is for ME to send a board of my circuit to whomever is testing YOUR board, so that they can be tested side-by-side. The fact that I cannot afford to buy copies of your supercapacitor clearly works against me here, but I don't care.... whoever tests can no doubt provide a suitable capacitor to install in my unit.

What is the voltage on your capacitor, measured with a simple DMM, at the start of the 20 minute period and at the end of the 20 minute period? Is this such a hard question for you to answer? Why?

ETA: Do you know the "tolerance" range of your supercaps? The ones I find that look similar have a tolerance of
-20%〜+80%
of rated capacitance.
This means to me that you don't even know the capacitance of your capacitors, unless you have measured each and every one of them with some kind of accurate and precise techniques. Have you done this?
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/746

ETA2: What are the specifics of your toroid windings? Those pictures do not appear to show what you said in your last description that I can find.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #163 on: December 06, 2012, 12:16:07 AM »
More clarification.
 
The oscilloscope-test-ready board has the following features:
(1) Allow the tester to put in any load.
(2) Allow the tester to use battery, DC Power Supply, Capacitor alone.
(3) Or capacitor with either battery or DC Power Supply.
See the updated diagram.

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #164 on: December 06, 2012, 09:43:55 PM »
Unless I can duplicate your conditions I cannot proceed, clearly.
you seem to have great difficulty 'duplicating' a lot of these JT circuits... you cannot 'duplicate' gadget's, you cannot 'duplicate' lasersaber's, etc., etc.

anyone else notice this pattern?

 

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