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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 461997 times)

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2012, 11:42:31 PM »
MH:


thank you again for the response. I understand what you are saying. Previous Newman's motors are notorious for small diameter wires. One guy once even mention how crazy he was to coil one of his gigantic motors with tiny little wires like gauge 36.


That is what I was trying to raze to you. If it is indeed small gauge like that I don't think he can even spin that motor. Can he? Is too little current.


I agree with what you said about the voltage and so on on the coils, no problem here.


Do you think it is possible the statement that "the amount of input power has nothing to do with the strength of the magnetic field created"? I know you will say it is dependent on current and inductance and wire size or area and turns and so on, but for a moment, knowing what you know of the laws of induction, is this statement correct or not?


many thanks,


Fausto.

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2012, 11:42:31 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2012, 12:13:10 AM »
  "  how would you utilize the higher flux if you had it from the longer wire "? 
 
   We would use it to light bulbs brighter when using equal or less input. That is where the ferrite cores help to provide more output, from shorter wire or less turns, than when using the longer wire higher turn air cores, iron powder cores, etz...
  We are talking about Joule Thief type circuits here, not other mechanical devices.
  This is what we have seen in our experiments, and this is common knowledge even in basic electronics  transformer circuitry.
  I don't mean to butt in, but If this is all wrong... please explain.
                                                                                                 NickZ

Hi Nick,

I know the topic here is on joule thief circuits and sorry for a slight off topic, I simply tried to answer plengo's question which was in general (apart from joule thiefs) on more flux from longer wire at the same input power. Of course as you say shorter wire is preferred and increase inductance by using ferrite (or other better quality) cores in case of joule thiefs, I agree, this does not sound to me wrong.

rgds, Gyula

Offline NickZ

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2012, 12:37:09 AM »
  Gyula:
   I know that you know... nothing new there. Just thought that I'd add that in, just in case there was something else that I was not aware of. 
   Thanks for the reply.
   There is one more thing...  it now seams that we can have a solid state device that can run on just voltage, and still provide for a useable output, with no real current as we know it. This probably has to do with frequency, or possibly even something else.
  As I value your input... what do you, or anyone else think about this type of device(s)???
                                                                                                         
   NickZ
   


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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2012, 12:37:09 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #123 on: November 29, 2012, 12:42:50 AM »
Hi Nick,

I apologize for not thoroughly following progress on joule thief circuits here or other forums so could you point me to schematics on such solid state circuits,  I do now like wading through too many pages if that would be the case.

EDIT  My bad, I think you meant joule thiefs in general and in this respect I think that if extra flux could be brought into the core from an outside permanent magnet so that the this flux and the 'normal' JT flux be summed up in the core then maybe some progress could be had. I will ponder on this how it might be possible.
What Gadget just reported here http://www.overunity.com/6123/jule-thief/msg346371/#msg346371 is also promising, hopefully replicateable by many.


Thanks,  Gyula
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 12:37:08 PM by gyulasun »

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2012, 06:35:50 AM »
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26794#new


The magic of the Joule Thief is revealed in the thread above.


The explanation file is attached.


The situations where Average Output Power was greater than Average Input Power were shown.
The situations when Average Input and Output Power turned negative were also shown.


We can now "resonance tune" the FLEET circuits.  A FLEET circuit is different from a JT circuit in that it is resonance-tuned.  Forever Lead-out Electromagnetic Energy Transformer.  We can claim Forever because energy is lead-out or brought-in.  That Electromagnetic Energy is the Electron Motion Energy of the atoms from the surrounding environment.  There is NO violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy.


The circuit can cool the environment?


*** Edited to put in graph.   Note the comarison of Output Power and Input Power over a 20 minute interval.  Resonance tuning and estimating how much energy can be lead-out is now a piece of cake.***


God Bless.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 01:15:50 PM by ltseung888 »

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2012, 06:35:50 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #125 on: November 29, 2012, 03:45:18 PM »
Mark Dansie will be testing the FLEET devices at G-LED USA in a couple of hours.
Independent verification of the technology is starting.
Expect at least 10 teams to finish their verification before Christmas 2012.  Photos and test results will be posted.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #126 on: November 29, 2012, 10:15:29 PM »
Mark Dansie will be testing the FLEET devices at G-LED USA in a couple of hours.
Independent verification of the technology is starting.
Expect at least 10 teams to finish their verification before Christmas 2012.  Photos and test results will be posted.

I hope there will useful information because the information at http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26794#new is totally useless.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #126 on: November 29, 2012, 10:15:29 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2012, 10:24:00 PM »
Lawrence, your graph is largely uninterpretable without knowing the exact conditions under which the data were obtained. In addition, several things _are_ interpretable about the graph. First, both traces go below the zero baseline toward the end of the interval. This indicates either nonconservation of Miracles, or a certain imprecision or error in your data, or both. Secondly, the magnitude of the difference at any given time is on the order of the value of the measurement itself. In other words, you are seeing a difference of a few milliWatts in a signal whose amplitude is a few milliWatts.

In such conditions it is imperative that results be shown _not_ from a single trial, but averages from multiple, even many trials, and error bars or some other measure of the variance in your data also shown. This will allow the signal-- any real differences-- to rise above the "noise" or random variations that can affect the results from single trials. And if the variance in the data -- the "error bars" -- is of the same order as the differences noted, then it is likely that the difference is not real and only due to chance variations in the noise level or the data.

I have already discussed some of the problems with your data collection methods, and I believe that if you have collected and used the data in that manner, to make this graph, that you are once again making extravagant claims without _real_ support from your experiments.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2012, 10:39:34 PM »
I hope there will useful information because the information at http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26794#new is totally useless.

Greetings, Conrad

I just took a look at the spreadsheet.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1516.0;attach=8782
If I am reading it right, the circuit is powered by the charged-up capacitor and allowed to run. As it runs the frequency changes a bit as the cap runs down. The data collection begins at 1 kHz and continues for 20 minutes. The data is gathered like this, since Lawrence's scope only has two channels. The output power measurements are made and recorded first, and then the probes are unhooked, moved to the input power measuring points, and the input power is measured. Then for the next measurement pair the probes are moved back to the output power, etc. This moving around takes a minute, according to the notes in the spreadsheet.

So for the final comparison, the output power measurement at time t is paired with an input power measurement at time t+1 minute, in a system with constantly decreasing input voltage from a capacitor.

Am I getting that right?

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2012, 10:39:34 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2012, 10:50:49 PM »
I just took a look at the spreadsheet.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1516.0;attach=8782
If I am reading it right, the circuit is powered by the charged-up capacitor and allowed to run. As it runs the frequency changes a bit as the cap runs down. The data collection begins at 1 kHz and continues for 20 minutes. The data is gathered like this, since Lawrence's scope only has two channels. The output power measurements are made and recorded first, and then the probes are unhooked, moved to the input power measuring points, and the input power is measured. Then for the next measurement pair the probes are moved back to the output power, etc. This moving around takes a minute, according to the notes in the spreadsheet.

So for the final comparison, the output power measurement at time t is paired with an input power measurement at time t+1 minute, in a system with constantly decreasing input voltage from a capacitor.

Am I getting that right?

@Tinselkoala: I am afraid it is a total waste of time to discuss data which is created with a secret device. The data can be everything.

One would have to know the circuit, the components used and the measurement methods.

But you are right, analysing the presented data, it even look fishy when making educated guesses.

Let's hope the many alleged validation teams are better when doing electronics and may be Marc Dansy is really looking at this and will do measurements.

It definitely does not look good. Again they refer to god. Are they praying for help? Or is it blasphemy?

Greetings, Conrad

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #130 on: November 30, 2012, 04:48:59 AM »
Lawrence, your graph is largely uninterpretable without knowing the exact conditions under which the data were obtained. In addition, several things _are_ interpretable about the graph. First, both traces go below the zero baseline toward the end of the interval. This indicates either nonconservation of Miracles, or a certain imprecision or error in your data, or both.


*** Think about the condition of negative power as feedback to source as standard in AC Power Circuits.


Secondly, the magnitude of the difference at any given time is on the order of the value of the measurement itself. In other words, you are seeing a difference of a few milliWatts in a signal whose amplitude is a few milliWatts.

In such conditions it is imperative that results be shown _not_ from a single trial, but averages from multiple, even many trials, and error bars or some other measure of the variance in your data also shown.


***  There will be at least 10 groups of volunteers doing the trial before the oscilloscope-test-ready boards are sent to the top Universities.  Many Students will be having the Christmas Holidays.  Some may even be able to use the DSO at their university labs.


This will allow the signal-- any real differences-- to rise above the "noise" or random variations that can affect the results from single trials. And if the variance in the data -- the "error bars" -- is of the same order as the differences noted, then it is likely that the difference is not real and only due to chance variations in the noise level or the data.

I have already discussed some of the problems with your data collection methods, and I believe that if you have collected and used the data in that manner, to make this graph, that you are once again making extravagant claims without _real_ support from your experiments.


Do not worry about my data.  They are "indication experiments".  Do not trust their accuracy.  The accurate results will be from the top universities with top-of-the-line DSOs and experts in using such.


I have made the same claims hundreds of times before.  Now the top universities and "investors" are taking interest.  If I do not make such claims, no one will give me a platinum Visa card.  No invitations to present at top universities.  No participation at invention conferences. 


The nay sayers and the "paid debunkers" might have silenced me.  Please repeat the experiment.


(1) Use your best 2n2222 JT.
(2) Add a capacitor (e.g. 2.3V 10F) in parallel with a DC Power Supply. 
(3) Start your DC Power Supply from 0 V and get it to light the LED to acceptable brightness.
(4) Turn off your DC Power Supply and take it out all together if you prefer.
(5) Check whether your LED can stay on for at least another 20 minutes with only the capacitor.
(6) If so, do your oscilloscope experiments.  If you have only one DSO, follow the circuit diagram in nov 22a1.xls
(7) Discharge the capacitor thoroughly first.  Do the Output measurements at minute intervals first.  Use the steps mentioned at point (3) to create a known starting condition.
(8 ) After 20 readings or so, discharge the capacitor again thoroughly.
(9) Repeat (7) and do the Input measurements.  The starting condition may not be exact.


Treat this as an " Indication Experiment".  Show it to your contacts at top universities and admit that your DSO cannot provide the academic grade.  Your contacts may be able to arrange a chance for you to send an oscilloscope-test-ready board to the top university.  Your platinum visa card???


Relax and pray.  Document all efforts on the Internet.  Your safety is better when the knowledge is public.  Ignore all nay sayers.  Most of them do not even have the equivalent of an Atten Oscilloscope!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #130 on: November 30, 2012, 04:48:59 AM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #131 on: November 30, 2012, 04:59:03 AM »
I just took a look at the spreadsheet.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1516.0;attach=8782
If I am reading it right, the circuit is powered by the charged-up capacitor and allowed to run. As it runs the frequency changes a bit as the cap runs down. The data collection begins at 1 kHz and continues for 20 minutes. The data is gathered like this, since Lawrence's scope only has two channels. The output power measurements are made and recorded first, and then the probes are unhooked, moved to the input power measuring points, and the input power is measured. Then for the next measurement pair the probes are moved back to the output power, etc. This moving around takes a minute, according to the notes in the spreadsheet.


*** No, No and No.  See my previous post for the exact measurement steps.

So for the final comparison, the output power measurement at time t is paired with an input power measurement at time t+1 minute, in a system with constantly decreasing input voltage from a capacitor.

Am I getting that right?  Sorry, your got it wrong this time.


Continue your questions.  Your questioning of the AC coupling was excellent. It really helped me to leap a giant step.  I am using DC Coupling from now on - so are all the volunteers.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #132 on: November 30, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

Continue your questions.  Your questioning of the AC coupling was excellent. It really helped me to leap a giant step.  I am using DC Coupling from now on - so are all the volunteers.
Quote
(7) Discharge the capacitor thoroughly first.  Do the Output measurements at minute intervals first.  Use the steps mentioned at point (3) to create a known starting condition.
(8 ) After 20 readings or so, discharge the capacitor again thoroughly.
(9) Repeat (7) and do the Input measurements.  The starting condition may not be exact.

I am astounded !! Lawrence.... that is even worse! You CANNOT take output data from one twenty minute run and compare it "minute by minute"  with input data from another, different twenty minute run!!! Who told you that was legitimate?
I am flabbergasted that you would even consider doing such a thing. It's outrageous. It invalidates ALL of your comparison data.
It  is such a basic error in methodology that most people would never even think it's possible. It's like coming to work with your pants on backwards and shoes from different pairs. Nobody is going to tell you "when you go to work, be sure your pants are on right and your shoes match" . They would never consider that anyone would NEED to be told that.

How are you "discharging thoroughly" your capacitor? Please give me the exact procedure you use for this, including times.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #133 on: November 30, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »
 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110630015105AAuZR0y
Can power factor of an electrical system be measured as a negative value?
A negative power factor would indicate that current leads or lags the voltage by more than 90 degrees. Physically, that can happen if the load is returning power to the source rather than using power. For example, if an induction motor is used to operate an electric railway locomotive, the power factor will be lagging by less than 90 degrees as the locomotive climbs a hill. If the motor is nearly loaded, the power factor might be about 0.85. If the track is level at the top of the hill, the motor's load will be reduced and the power factor might drop to 0.65. As the locomotive begin to go downhill, the power factor drops more and may be come negative as the motor begins to operate as a generator returning braking power to the source.
Source(s):
I have worked as an engineer in the manufacture of variable frequency drives (VFD). We tested drives under load by using the VFD under test to control an induction motor which drove a second induction motor that was connected to utility (mains) power. Using the VFD to slightly overspeed the second motor forced that motor to become a generator and return power to the utility.
 
Another Answer:
 
The power factor itself, will be positive, between 0 and 1, and is given from cos (theta).
 
 If it is 1, your load is purely resistive.
 If it is 0, your load is purely reactive.
 
 The angle theta, however, could be negative or positive.
 
 If it's negative, then the reactive portion is capacitive, and your voltage is lagging behind the current.
 
 If it's positive, then the reactive portion is inductive, and voltage is leading current.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #134 on: November 30, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »
I am astounded !! Lawrence.... that is even worse! You CANNOT take output data from one twenty minute run and compare it "minute by minute"  with input data from another, different twenty minute run!!! Who told you that was legitimate?
I am flabbergasted that you would even consider doing such a thing. It's outrageous. It invalidates ALL of your comparison data.
*** As I mentioned, I do indication experiments.  The top universities will have the DSO and experts to do the real experiments.  That is why we need them.

How are you "discharging thoroughly" your capacitor? Please give me the exact procedure you use for this, including times.
*** Use a wire to directly connect the two ends of the capacitor for 5 minutes.  Put it back on the JT circuit and the LED should show no light.  Check the Output voltage waveform on the Atten Oscilloscope.  It should show NO more characteristic pulsing waveform.
Great questions.  I am glad that I have ready answers before going to Tsinghua University.  Any more???

 

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