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Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 453038 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2012, 12:28:54 AM »
Hi Fausto,

One question:  how would you utilize the higher flux if you had it from the longer wire?  Lenz law will react on it in the same way as it normally does, no?

Another thing: if you think of normal coil shapes (multilayer cylindrical), then the dynamic fluxchange would be different at switch-on, than for the case of the static case.  IF you wind a coil with X inductance from a certain wire diameter and "l" wire length and it would have say 3 Ohm DC resistance, and then you would wind a coil with a thicker wire and "10*l" wire length to get the same 3 Ohm DC resistance, it is obvious that this latter coil would have higher than X inductance and for a static case this latter would make a stronger electromagnet than the first coil, and DC input power would be same if you use the same DC source.  BUT the moment you start pulsing these coils, then their AC impedance is what counts and the second coil will surely have a higher AC impedance than the first.  So how do you think this?

Thanks, Gyula

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2012, 12:28:54 AM »

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2012, 01:13:42 AM »
 
So you do not care if your results and reports are accurate? Astounding. Even if it's wrong, and due to your incorrect measurements?? Lawrence, what are you thinking? YOU must be worried about whether your extraordinary claims are true or not, yes? You don't even care if you are accurate, you've already decided that you are right..... even though I've pointed out many things you have been doing wrong..... What are you thinking?(http://www.overunity.com/file:///C:/Users/Jen/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif) Lawrence..... have you been reading my posts?
 
*** There is one overriding thought. I was in hospital and realized that I might see the Almighty any moment. In USA, someone tried to run me over. A man tried to break-in my home in Hong Kong and scared my daughter. Both my home computer and the office computer at BSI have been hacked. 
 
 I have JTs sitting here in front of me that have the exact same circuit as your boards, and I have other units that FAR OUTPERFORM those, both in terms of instantaneous output power, and low voltage/current input requirements, thanks to groundloop and gadgetmall and the other builders who DO care about accuracy and correct measurements. You do not need to send me anything except what I've asked you for:
 ++The instruction/owner's manual for your scope.++
 
*** Google Atten Oscilloscope Manual.
 

 ++The _exact_ circuit schematic you are using, ONE circuit, including the positioning of ALL measurement probe leads, ground wires, power supply connections etc.++
 
*** See the summary page on nov 22a1.xls.  You will find the schematics, the photos and the exact points for the various probes.  I do not have a specific ground wire.  The position of the power supply connections is clearly marked on the schematics and on the photo.
 
 I will continue to help you.... I am interested in preventing you from falling on your face in public.... so once again I recommend strongly that you BACK OFF and be completely sure.... in a REAL SCIENTIFIC SENSE, not a faith sense.... that your claims are correct.
 
*** I now have a number of volunteers (retired electrical engineering professors, rocket scientists, mathematicians, physicists, bankers, LED store owners) helping me to do the thorough double, triple checks.  I welcome help from all places simultaneously.
 
 If you can't even prove them to a willing Koala over the internet, you will be wasting your time and money sending off your boards to your sacred "top Universities". If you do not want to take my advice, that is of course up to you. In that case, I will continue to challenge you on your claims, without being willing to help you refine them. The onus of proof is ON YOU. We can work together in the interests of determining the real truth, or you can work alone..... but you will still need to find the truth, one way or the other.
 
*** Do not worry about my wasting money.  An investor has already given me a platinum Visa card with an upper limit that will allow me to go visit any of the top Universities.
 
 I think you will find that "top Universities" have what they might call a "crackpot file". Are you a cracked pot, that leaks and is so brittle that it will shatter at the first challenge, or are you sound and strong, ringing like a bell with clarity and resonance when you are tested with the hammer? Into which file should you be placed, the "crackpot" file, or the file of continuing interest and cooperation? It's up to you..... and we all know to which pile you've been assigned in the past.
 
*** I was at Tsinghua University three years ago.  I know how they treat “crackpots” – free meals and lodging; private conferences; use of lab facilities; meeting with Professors and Research Students and a recorded lecture to Students.  One of the Lawyers took the prototype Lead-out Energy Research Kit to Columbia University.  He showed the lighting of the 38 LEDs making up BSI without battery for over 20 minutes after touching it with the battery for 10 seconds.  He assembled the circuit from the Kit.  The response was – when will you send the oscilloscope-test-ready board?”
 

 
When I looked back, the lead-out theory was revealed to me in July 2004.  That showed leading kinetic energy of air molecules.  In Dec 2004, the second Divine Revelation on leading-out gravitational energy was revealed.  We spent four years building the Tong Wheel.  It worked and the objection was – you cannot rely on voltmeters and ampmeters for such measurements.  We got the Atten Oscilloscopes.  We had dozens of toroids.  I used the Output Vpp over Input Vpp as comparison Index.  Some Internet users told me that was totally useless.  Fortunately I ignored them and kept my records.  The totally useless high Index toroids NOW turned out to be good candidates for overunity research and implementation.
 
***I believe the Almighty will guide me.  I pray and listen to the message from my heart.  If you know that I had two strokes and recovered via prayer, you will realize that I do not rely on human wisdom or logic.  I already KNOW that lead-out energy is real.  It is just a matter of timing from the Almighty to let the World taste the Divine Wine.  Your suggestion of use DC instead of AC coupling is very helpful.  But you probably already know that the waveform comparisons using DC and AC coupling are similar.  I can be wrong on the details but right in the general direction.
 

Offline NickZ

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2012, 01:32:08 AM »
  "  how would you utilize the higher flux if you had it from the longer wire"? 
 
   We would use it to light bulbs brighter when using equal or less input. That is where the ferrite cores help to provide more output, from shorter wire or less turns, than when using the longer wire higher turn air cores, iron powder cores, etz...
  We are talking about Joule Thief type circuits here, not other mechanical devices.
  This is what we have seen in our experiments, and this is common knowledge even in basic electronics  transformer circuitry.
  I don't mean to butt in, but If this is all wrong... please explain.
                                                                                                 NickZ

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2012, 01:32:08 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2012, 01:55:15 AM »
It is perfectly easy to show that a flow of current is necessary for Newman's motor --- or any "voltage" motor, even the electrostatic Enhanced Franklin Motor that I exhibited earlier. Simply hook the motor to a voltage source that isn't being supplied with outside power, and monitor the voltage. Does the voltage on your battery or capacitor decrease faster when the motor is hooked up, than it does when the motor is not hooked up?

Hey, current is current. A magnetic field depends on amp-turns, not amp-kilogrammes. A ten turn coil of copper busbar weighing nine kilos will have the same magnetic field as a ten turn coil of the same dimensions but made of tiny copper wire, as long as the current thru them is the same.
And microAmps, picoAmps, even femtoAmps.... still current, and will still make magnetic fields. Send 97 picoAmps thru your nine-kilo busbar coil and it will make the same field as 97 picoAmps thru a ten turn coil of #40 magnet wire. Try it!

The point about mechanical commutation and switching such a heavy coil under such small currents is a good one, though. There could be all kinds of crazy things happening in a mechanical commutator switching a couple hundred volts into a load of tens or hundreds of Hy inductance.

ETA: Please let's not get picky about the different self-inductances of the same total cross-sectional area ( hence same resistance per unit length) but different shapes.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2012, 03:11:40 AM »
@Lawrence: I am so jealous.

It's clear that I have nothing to offer you and that you are far ahead of me in obtaining funding.

But I am far, FAR ahead of you in attaining what you would no doubt call "overunity" results.

Will you please inform your investors and your top University scientists that I have JTs that far outperform yours? I am ready to prove this contention at any time, and my devices are ready to be tested NOW. I'd rather work together with you than to compete with you...... but after all, a Platinum Visa card is quite a carrot.

(The only problem I see is that I am not prepared to claim that any of my devices are actually overunity.)

(By the way, I have heard of Google and I do know how to use it. When I ask you for a manual, I don't expect to be referred to Google; I think it would be courteous of you to provide an actual link, since I neither speak Chinese nor know just what model of Atten scope you have. But of course all that is moot now anyway. I found an Atten manual and it gave me some of the information I needed: the scope is NOT isolated from the mains ground and the probe references are connected together and to the chassis ground.)
Quote
● Ground the Product. This product is grounded through the grounding conductor
of the power cord. To avoid electric shock, the grounding conductor must be
connected to earth ground. Before making connections to the input or output
terminals of the product, ensure that the product is properly grounded.
● Connect the Probe Properly. The probe ground lead is at ground potential. Do not
connect the ground lead to an elevated voltage.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2012, 03:11:40 AM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2012, 04:12:18 AM »
Meanwhile, for your amusement, here's a motor that _does_ run on lots and lots of voltage and not much current at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE


That's such a nice video, just electrostatic energy powered machine, so nice and light. Compared to today's current driven machines they are like plums.


Fausto.

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2012, 04:21:25 AM »
Then I won't jump in until MH has had a chance to answer.


Meanwhile, here's a quick video showing how Lawrence -- or anyone else who cares to -- can determine the actual resonant frequencies of his JT coils, out of circuit. In the circuit the resonant frequency will change depending on the load the coil sees. This method can also be used in-circuit by disconnecting the circuit's input to the coil and using the FG instead, and monitoring the output voltage with the output side of the circuit connected, I think. Or if the circuit's own oscillator can be swept in frequency, that is the very best way to do it: sweep frequencies until the output voltage peaks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZN5QJZClY


Nice tip. I have not seen the video yet BUT the explanation is very very good. So you replace the signal that drives the Coil with an FG and look for the best output in voltage with the other probe?


Just like if I just put one coil with the FG and probe across coil input and look for the highest voltage pk-pk. The exact same thing but with yours I can do that on the circuit, right?


I must admit this is probably for the engineers a must have babe steps learning thing, but for me it has been very valuable to learn a little bit more today.

Fausto.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2012, 04:21:25 AM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2012, 05:04:02 AM »
Hi Fausto,

One question:  how would you utilize the higher flux if you had it from the longer wire?  Lenz law will react on it in the same way as it normally does, no?

Another thing: if you think of normal coil shapes (multilayer cylindrical), then the dynamic fluxchange would be different at switch-on, than for the case of the static case.  IF you wind a coil with X inductance from a certain wire diameter and "l" wire length and it would have say 3 Ohm DC resistance, and then you would wind a coil with a thicker wire and "10*l" wire length to get the same 3 Ohm DC resistance, it is obvious that this latter coil would have higher than X inductance and for a static case this latter would make a stronger electromagnet than the first coil, and DC input power would be same if you use the same DC source.  BUT the moment you start pulsing these coils, then their AC impedance is what counts and the second coil will surely have a higher AC impedance than the first.  So how do you think this?

Thanks, Gyula


Excellent questions.


I don't know really. I would think that Lenz law would still apply and therefore you will still have the problem of trying to "re-use" that field. Every time it will cause the reversed field and the story goes. So I guess longer wire coil no difference here.


Concerning the AC. I think I will answer with another question: What would be the possibility of not only creating a massive big coil that you can know or design with the correct wave length, so that one pulse will travel forward and return at the same moment you pulse again, or just right before or after, but just at the right "place" in the coil to cause for example a differential when one applies the next pulse?


Certainly a coil with very large inductance would be difficult to pulse at large frequencies. So motors with magnets is a picture that comes to my mind.


But more seriously, those are not high frequency coils so I guess what you are trying to build is of relevance here.


[size=78%]Fausto.[/size]

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2012, 05:30:54 AM »
@Lawrence: I am so jealous.

It's clear that I have nothing to offer you and that you are far ahead of me in obtaining funding.

But I am far, FAR ahead of you in attaining what you would no doubt call "overunity" results.

Will you please inform your investors and your top University scientists that I have JTs that far outperform yours? I am ready to prove this contention at any time, and my devices are ready to be tested NOW. I'd rather work together with you than to compete with you...... but after all, a Platinum Visa card is quite a carrot.

(The only problem I see is that I am not prepared to claim that any of my devices are actually overunity.)

(By the way, I have heard of Google and I do know how to use it. When I ask you for a manual, I don't expect to be referred to Google; I think it would be courteous of you to provide an actual link, since I neither speak Chinese nor know just what model of Atten scope you have. But of course all that is moot now anyway. I found an Atten manual and it gave me some of the information I needed: the scope is NOT isolated from the mains ground and the probe references are connected together and to the chassis ground.)


I shall make sure the Investors and Top Universities know about your work and your help in the use of DC Coupling.  The Investors are looking for top experts.  They prefer to wait for the Top Universities to come out with definitive reports before pumping in serious funding.  Some of their advisers are betting and want to see me fall flat on my face.  There is some pressure on me but I am not rushing.


Repeat my experiments.  Use the necessary grounding and better DSOs.  Use your better prototypes.  One hint is to use the 2n3055, higher voltage capacitor, better resistors and toroids.  I am requesting many volunteers to do the same.  At the moment, the carrot is a nice meal with my Visa Card! :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2012, 05:30:54 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #114 on: November 28, 2012, 06:00:39 AM »
NickZ:

Quote
We would use it to light bulbs brighter when using equal or less input. That is where the ferrite cores help to provide more output, from shorter wire or less turns, than when using the longer wire higher turn air cores, iron powder cores, etz...
  We are talking about Joule Thief type circuits here, not other mechanical devices.
  This is what we have seen in our experiments, and this is common knowledge even in basic electronics  transformer circuitry.
  I don't mean to butt in, but If this is all wrong... please explain.

A ferrite core will simply increase the inductance of the coil.  It will allow the coil to provide more output energy, as long as you provide it with more input energy.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2012, 06:08:47 AM »
TK:

In your coil resonance clip your excitation from your signal generator should have been a sine wave.  That's actually of critical importance and I assume that you know that.

MH

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2012, 06:08:47 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #116 on: November 28, 2012, 06:21:49 AM »

Nice tip. I have not seen the video yet BUT the explanation is very very good. So you replace the signal that drives the Coil with an FG and look for the best output in voltage with the other probe?
Yes, that's right, essentially. With the scope probe on the second coil.
Quote

Just like if I just put one coil with the FG and probe across coil input and look for the highest voltage pk-pk. The exact same thing but with yours I can do that on the circuit, right?
Hmmm.... With a single winding? I'm not so sure that is equivalent. I'll have to do some comparisons to check. For a single coil I usually make an improvised "primary" with a few turns of scrap wire, and feed that, thru a 50R resistance, with the FG output. Then look for resonant rise on the original coil as usual. This will probably also work for coils that are in-circuit, but be careful that the resonant rise doesn't blow up stuff downstream or overload your scope probe.
For, eg, Tesla coil secondaries, I use a 1meg or 10meg resistor in series with the already 10x attenuated probe tip at the top of the secondary, and just use a single loop or two around the base of the coil as the FG-driven "primary" (with the 50R in series).
Quote

I must admit this is probably for the engineers a must have babe steps learning thing, but for me it has been very valuable to learn a little bit more today.

Fausto.

I am glad. I hope the information is useful, and thanks so much for the feedback. The DeepBunker can be a cold and lonesome place at times, even with a good dog at my feet.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2012, 06:29:40 AM »
@Lawrence: You might try the MPSA18 in place of the 2n2222 or 2n2222a for your low-voltage, low current models. I find that it works better, but it is also more delicate. It is also a lot cheaper.

I just bought a new 2n3055 today from my component supplier. It cost 4.85 US, plus tax. Outrageous! The MPSA18 can be had for fifty cents each or even cheaper. A lot of 25 for under four dollars on Ebay, I see.

Don't worry, I won't be competing with you. Just try to have fun, and I wish you the best of success and happy experiences along your quest.

Offline plengo

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2012, 07:41:54 PM »
Fausto:

Back to the exploration.  I will state it again, you should be doing this and not me.

The web page to calculate the inductance of a coil:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indsol.html#c1

For a coil length of 50 cm, radius 50 cm, with 1000 turns, (3.14 km wire length), air core, the inductance of the coil is 1.97 Henries.  I believe that is much less inductance than you were expecting.

Let's assume that Joe is using 12 gauge wire with a 3 mm diameter.  12 gauge wire has 0.1588 ohms resistance per 100 feet.  3.14 km is 1.95 miles.   1.95 miles is 10296 feet.

Therefore the resistance of the coil is (10296/100) x 0.1588 = 16.35 ohms.

So, what happens when you put 255 volts across the coil?

The time constant is L/R = 1.97/16.35 = 0.12 seconds.   So five time constants is 0.6 seconds.

Therefore after 0.6 seconds the giant coil could have 255/16.35 = 15.6 amperes of current flowing through it.  I don't think the alkaline AA batteries could put out 15.6 amperes.  I am guessing they start to strain around 7 amperes.

The rotating magnet can add some counter-EMF to reduce the current flow.  The giant rotating magnet might also increase the length of the time constant due to increased permeability to reduce the rate of increase in current flow.

That doesn't matter.  My conclusion is that you have always viewed the giant Newman motor with an emotional reaction and you never tried to do some very basic calculations to see what the results would be like.  That was a huge mistake on your part.   It seems pretty apparent to me that a bunch of AA cells in series can easily power the giant strange "Newman motor."  In reality the Newman motor is just an ordinary pulse motor that just happens to be so big that you have to move it around on the back of a pickup truck.   You pump somewhere between 50 and 200 watts into it, and it does between 10 and 20 watts of mechanical work to pump water.

Can you see how easy that was Fausto?  It's pretty clear to me that your assumptions were way off.  The mistake was to never try to model the motor and make some basic calculations.

Finally, in the chance that you don't understand the "time constant" references then I suggest that you go and study.  Every single pulse motor you will ever build has a time constant and it is critical to understanding how the motor works.  Without that level of understanding it's like you are flying blind.

MileHigh


I think you made a little mistake in your calculations but here it goes. On the picture I show your number for the resistance and mine and a little bit more.



It is very clear to me that with even 1/2 amp you will not be able to run that gigantic motor. I barely can run my toy motors with that much less with a load.


In the picture one can see that playing with gauge wires one can get what he/she wants concerning amperage.


In the picture I used first this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge and the second picture I used this site: http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html





Fausto.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #119 on: November 28, 2012, 11:34:35 PM »
Fausto:

If you switch to higher gauge wire the size of the wire gets much smaller.  36 gauge wire would most likely be too thin and too fragile for Newman's giant motor.

If you increase the wire resistance all that does for you is increase the battery power that is lost to heat and reduces the maximum current through the coil.  That reduces the strength of the magnetic field and therefore it reduces the strength of the motor.

Let's not forget what we are talking about:  Is the Newman motor demonstrating anything special or any over unity?

I showed you how in a few simple steps you can make some good estimates of how the motor is performing in real life.  When Joe Newman says that his "amazing" motor runs on voltage only or he says it runs on voltage with negligible current it's not true.

You listened to Joe and believed him and then you made a bunch of estimates and assumptions yourself about the motor that are not true.

The inductance calculator for a coil on the Hyperphysics web site is a valuable tool.   Once you know the output impedance of the voltage source that is charging the coil and the inductance of the coil then you know the L/R time constant and then you know how long it takes for the coil to reach the maximum current flow.  This is applicable to any pulse motor.

You made reference to how much voltage a "big coil" can produce.  The truth and reality is that just about any coil can produce high voltage when it discharges its stored energy.  The "big coil secret" that people like Bedini don't want to tell you is that the voltage the coil can product is not dependent on the coil, it's actually dependent on the load on the coil.  A high resistance load will result in high voltage.  A low resistance load will result in low voltage.  A short circuit for the load will result in zero volts output from the coil.  So yes, the same coil that can output thousands of volts can also output one volt and it can also "output" zero volts.  It all depends on the value of the load resistor.

MileHigh

 

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