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### Author Topic: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?  (Read 607116 times)

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1005 on: June 05, 2013, 04:35:09 PM »
Void,
Technically speaking, one of either the current or the voltage needs to be inverted when measuring input power. The input source power when measured always produces a negative (unless you have an OU device) wattage. Go around the circuit loop and notice the electric field is in opposition to all the voltage "drops" in the circuit.
Anyway, it is only a technicality, as the only difference in the end is the sign of the measured power, the magnitude will be exactly the same.

Hi Poynt99. Sorry, but I disagree. In my many years involved in electronics I have never heard of anyone expressing input power to a circuit or system as negative Watts or negative power. Watts are Watts. It will be automatically understood that if we are talking about input power to a circuit, that this involves a power drain from the power source. Maybe, possibly at the academic level, power from power generation devices might be referred to as negative power, but in common usage involving measuring input and output power on circuits and systems, I have not encountered it.

If the current were really 180 degrees out of phase with the voltage, then you would have power going into the power source rather than power draining from the power source. There may be some special cases where a negative sign might be used in conjunction with power measurements, but for ordinary electronics circuits and systems power measurements, I have not encountered it. A negative sign for power might conceivably be used on a circuit or system that is over unity, and where some of that power is directed back to a battery or something similar to cause the power source to be charged more than it is drained, but I have yet to encounter such an over unity circuit or system (at least not personally) that really does produce over unity. I keep an open mind however.  Also, I don't know, but people who have systems like wind mills and solar panel power generation systems, who put some power back into the power company's power grid, may be considered as consuming 'negative power' by the power company, but I don't know if that term is actually used by the power company in that case.

#### profitis

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3952
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1006 on: June 05, 2013, 04:44:55 PM »
@tk,mm interesting,perhaps its size dependant thanx.hey if you need any chemical tests done for anything let me know.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1007 on: June 05, 2013, 04:45:49 PM »
Also try to see if you can then apply a "mean" auto-measurement of the resulting p(t) math trace.
Thanks,
.99

Ok sure, I will have a look at it and see what I can do.

#### MenofFather

• Hero Member
• Posts: 943
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1008 on: June 05, 2013, 04:59:31 PM »
Joule thief seems not have overunity.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1009 on: June 05, 2013, 05:08:05 PM »
Joule thief seems not have overunity.

Yes, it would seem it is not very likely for an 'ordinary' joule thief circuit anyway. It is just a form of an oscillator circuit which has been used for many years in electronics. If such oscillator circuits were over unity, you would think engineers would have noticed that a long time ago. I try to keep an open mind, however. There may be special conditions where over unity could be achieved. My hobby is to experiment and keep a look out for any such special conditions.

#### profitis

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3952
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1010 on: June 05, 2013, 06:09:40 PM »
@void,its time to try a different material for your core,gadolinium metal,nickel metal,cobalt metal,aluminum-nickel,manganese dioxide pressed powder/rod,titanium-nickel etc.

#### poynt99

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3582
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1011 on: June 05, 2013, 07:03:58 PM »
Hi Poynt99. Sorry, but I disagree. In my many years involved in electronics I have never heard of anyone expressing input power to a circuit or system as negative Watts or negative power. Watts are Watts. It will be automatically understood that if we are talking about input power to a circuit, that this involves a power drain from the power source. Maybe, possibly at the academic level, power from power generation devices might be referred to as negative power, but in common usage involving measuring input and output power on circuits and systems, I have not encountered it.
You may disagree if you wish, but technically speaking the facts remain. The power computation in sources is negative, and the power computation in sinks is positive.

Are you familiar with Kirchhoff's Voltage Law? It states the following:

Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL) (or Kirchhoff's Loop Rule) is a result of the electrostatic field being conservative. It states that the total voltage around a closed loop must be zero.

Implicit to this is a "power law" as well, and it could be stated as follows:

The total power around a closed loop or within a device must be zero.

I encourage you to draw out a simple circuit of a battery in series with 2 resistors to form a complete circuit or loop. Now go around and verify KVL. Make special note of the polarity of the drops across the resistors vs. the drop across the battery as you move around the loop in one direction. Are they the same polarity as you move around the loop? Which direction does the current flow? Is it the same direction through the battery and resistors?

If done correctly, you will find that the power in the resistors is as follows:

P = V x I = +W

and the power in the battery as follows:

P = -V x I = -W

Just because you have not encountered something, does not mean it can not exist or be correct.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1012 on: June 05, 2013, 07:41:51 PM »
You may disagree if you wish, but technically speaking the facts remain. The power computation in sources is negative, and the power computation in sinks is positive.
Are you familiar with Kirchhoff's Voltage Law? It states the following:
Kirchhoff's Voltage Law (KVL) (or Kirchhoff's Loop Rule) is a result of the electrostatic field being conservative. It states that the total voltage around a closed loop must be zero.
Implicit to this is a "power law" as well, and it could be stated as follows:
The total power around a closed loop or within a device must be zero.
I encourage you to draw out a simple circuit of a battery in series with 2 resistors to form a complete circuit or loop. Now go around and verify KVL. Make special note of the polarity of the drops across the resistors vs. the drop across the battery as you move around the loop in one direction. Are they the same polarity as you move around the loop? Which direction does the current flow? Is it the same direction through the battery and resistors?
If done correctly, you will find that the power in the resistors is as follows:
P = V x I = +W
and the power in the battery as follows:
P = -V x I = -W
Just because you have not encountered something, does not mean it can not exist or be correct.

Poynt99, it is not a major concern to me, but I was just giving my feedback on your comments. Yes, of course I am familiar with Kirchoff's voltage law. I think we are talking about two different things here however. I am talking about the common way that input power is expressed when referring to input power measurements or input power specs on circuits. It is commonly expressed as a positive power. It is understood that input power implies a power drain from the power source. That's all I am saying. At any rate, it is not really of concern to me if someone wants to put a negative sign when expressing input power or not. As long as the measurements are done correctly, and it is made clear what various measurements represent, such as input power and output power, etc. I don't see a problem. In the case of measuring and displaying the input voltage and input current waveforms on a circuit using a scope, I think it would be confusing for people to have the input current waveform inverted (showing as a negative current) unless you include a note explaining that the current waveform is inverted from the actual. What is of main concern to me, is that measurements are done correctly. So, I would appreciate if anyone would let me know if they notice any errors in my measurements or calculations. If someone wants to invert their scope waveforms or indicate input power with a negative sign, that's fine with me as long as it is clear what they are doing.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1013 on: June 05, 2013, 07:44:02 PM »
@void,its time to try a different material for your core,gadolinium metal,nickel metal,cobalt metal,aluminum-nickel,manganese dioxide pressed powder/rod,titanium-nickel etc.

I intend to conduct more experiments with Lawrence's boards first, but sure, it might prove interesting to investigate and try different core materials to see how it impacts circuit performance.

#### profitis

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3952
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1014 on: June 05, 2013, 11:14:55 PM »
@void indeed,given the fact that of all the parts in any inductive circuitry its the core where the thermodynamics laws are supposed to be manipulated to our benefit,ie.the collapsing of magneto-alligned dipoles on each oscillatory cycle.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1015 on: June 05, 2013, 11:35:13 PM »
Instead of using a toroid, wrap your coils around the run battery itself, in layers, with the greater number of turns "secondary" wound first, then the lesser turns "primary" wound over the outside of that. You may need a few more turns than "standard". If you have a little tube that the battery will slip nicely into, use that for the coil form, so it's easy to change batteries. Compare alkaline, NiMH, and carbon-zinc batteries. Also do the same with a supercap: use it as the coil core.

#### ltseung888

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4363
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1016 on: June 06, 2013, 02:23:34 AM »
I intend to conduct more experiments with Lawrence's boards first, but sure, it might prove interesting to investigate and try different core materials to see how it impacts circuit performance.
@Void,

Thank you for your efforts.  Please do one waveform and DSO analysis using my "4 CH scope" connection.  It will remove any unnecessary disputes with our comparison experiments in different parts of the World.  Try to do the experiment in a normal environment and then in an "electrosmog" environment.

Once you have done that, do the following:
(1) Connect one capacitor in parallel with the DC Power Supply.  You can hook the capacitor positive to Vin and the capacitor negative to Vout.
(2) Set the DC Power Supply to 1.5V and turn it on for 1 minute.
(3) Turn off the DC Power Supply and check how long the LED will be ON.  Check whether the brightness appears to be the same in the first 2 minutes.  You can be more scientific and use suitable instruments.  I just use the naked eye.
(4) Repeat the above with 2, 3 and 4 capacitors in parallel.  I believe you have 4 of my capacitors.
(5) Repeat that with your super capacitor.
(6) The above will prepare us for the next experiment.  We shall use a timer to prolong the battery life (or cut electricity bills).  One group claimed to have used such techniques plus small solar panels to achieve the "forever lighted lamp".  Their electricity bill was greatly reduced.

Mr. T S Lau is repeating the timer experiment with a single capacitor.  My unconfirmed information is that different value of the capacitor and/or timing will give different battery lives (or pay different electricity bills).  I shall take apart that Rex Dual Timer after his experiment.

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1017 on: June 06, 2013, 05:40:42 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agqKEed7AOI  (400 LEDs from JT and EB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kL8ys8m0-4  (EB and JT run 48" tube)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY (EB and supercap run Bedini motor)

Check out my channel for other similar videos.

Thanks,

Bill

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1018 on: June 06, 2013, 01:11:04 PM »
Instead of using a toroid, wrap your coils around the run battery itself, in layers, with the greater number of turns "secondary" wound first, then the lesser turns "primary" wound over the outside of that. You may need a few more turns than "standard". If you have a little tube that the battery will slip nicely into, use that for the coil form, so it's easy to change batteries. Compare alkaline, NiMH, and carbon-zinc batteries. Also do the same with a supercap: use it as the coil core.

That's an interesting idea. The coil windings will probably induce eddy currents in the metal casing of the batteries, which will probably reduce the self inductance of the windings, but it will be interesting to see what results this produces. Also, winding around the super cap should be interesting as well. Good idea! I will give this a try when I get a chance.

#### Void

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2333
##### Re: Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?
« Reply #1019 on: June 06, 2013, 01:34:02 PM »
@Void,
Thank you for your efforts.  Please do one waveform and DSO analysis using my "4 CH scope" connection.  It will remove any unnecessary disputes with our comparison experiments in different parts of the World.  Try to do the experiment in a normal environment and then in an "electrosmog" environment.

Once you have done that, do the following:
(1) Connect one capacitor in parallel with the DC Power Supply.  You can hook the capacitor positive to Vin and the capacitor negative to Vout.
(2) Set the DC Power Supply to 1.5V and turn it on for 1 minute.
(3) Turn off the DC Power Supply and check how long the LED will be ON.  Check whether the brightness appears to be the same in the first 2 minutes.  You can be more scientific and use suitable instruments.  I just use the naked eye.
(4) Repeat the above with 2, 3 and 4 capacitors in parallel.  I believe you have 4 of my capacitors.
(5) Repeat that with your super capacitor.
(6) The above will prepare us for the next experiment.  We shall use a timer to prolong the battery life (or cut electricity bills).  One group claimed to have used such techniques plus small solar panels to achieve the "forever lighted lamp".  Their electricity bill was greatly reduced.

Mr. T S Lau is repeating the timer experiment with a single capacitor.  My unconfirmed information is that different value of the capacitor and/or timing will give different battery lives (or pay different electricity bills).  I shall take apart that Rex Dual Timer after his experiment.

Ok, as soon as I get a chance, I will do power measurements for some of your boards with the scope probes connected in the way you do it, to make it easier for you to compare to your own results. Yes, you sent me four of your 10F super capacitors.

In (1) above, I assume you mean to connect the super cap negative terminal to the Iin terminal on your boards?
In (3) above, I can measure the output power at the start and compare to the output power after two minutes. If the output power is close to the same, then that would mean that the LED brightness should be about the same. It is doubtful that one could accurately judge small differences in LED brightness just by eye. I know I certainly couldn't anyway.
I may well have to wait till at least the weekend to conduct these tests for you.