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Author Topic: Heron's Fountain  (Read 126270 times)

Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 08:42:09 PM »
This past weekend I constructed a Heron's Fountain according to the attached diagram.  I will post a video of it in operation when I get a chance.  This is a really cool project and cost me nothing to build.  It is amazing to see the water lifted higher than the starting point.  More later...

Bill

Instructions I used are here: http://blog.makezine.com/2008/06/08/build-herons-fountain-1/  I modified a few things to fit the materials I had laying about.

   Yep Bill,
 Thank you for posting this, but it's the Travis Effect.    ;D

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 08:42:09 PM »

Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 10:53:08 PM »
  @All,
 Have realized something. If Heron had his tubes under water, then he would have pumped water instead of air.
 Yes, water is eventually pumped, but only because water is stored in other reservoirs while the air they contained is being pumped.
What this would have done is it would have prevented water in the top chamber from filling the lower chambers.
 If you ask Bill, this is most likely why it quits working, the top chamber empties to the level of the fill tube for the lwoer level.
 A simple way around this is to have all the tubes in the lower chambers below water level. This would mean the increase in any air
pressure would be because of increased water volume.
 A small change in Heron's invention, but for 2,000 years it is accepted that the principles he realized are correct, then pumping water instead of air changes nothing except for itbeing a perpetual device.
 You see, water and air follow the same principles of engineering. While one is called pneumatic and the other hydro, the forces work in the same fashion. Simply put, if Heron had used shorter tubes in his invention, he would have realized perpetual motion 2,ooo years ago.
 But as is often the case, you can't expect the inventor to know everything can you ? We can't and today his work might show the simplicity that perpetual motion can be found in.
 Myself, I will need to take a break as I do have serious medical issues to deal with, but leaving you guys with the help of Bill, something that has been proven and in making a slight modification might show what some of us in this forum believe in. And that is there is something left to be learned and some things are possible even though conventional wisdom does not support it.

                                                                                                                                    Take Care and Good Bye
 
edited for clarification.

Offline FatBird

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 12:32:16 AM »
It seems like this one is MUCH EASIER to make & has a GREATER potential
for SCALING UP to turn a water wheel, which then turns a generator.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287qd4uI7-E&feature=channel&list=UL
 
 
.

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 12:32:16 AM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 01:51:15 AM »
It seems like this one is MUCH EASIER to make & has a GREATER potential
for SCALING UP to turn a water wheel, which then turns a generator.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287qd4uI7-E&feature=channel&list=UL
 
 
.

   FatBird,
  The picture you show is from a vidoe you posted. The things shown in the video are not possible.
What they are meant for is to encouracge discussions by people like your self who find them interesting.
 The simplest possible pm device is one that would be based on Heron's Fountain.
 There is a reason why it is called a fountain. In order for it to have this name means that 2,000 years ago,
it would have to have shot water into the air just as a fountain does today.
 What everyone seems to miss is that under pressure, there is no difference between the effects of watr and air except for corrosion.
 Myself, I would recommend people take Bill's suggestion and try this. If it works using water to create air pressure to pump water, then it should work with water presure creating air pressure to pump water. It really is the same thing between pneumatics and hydraulics. It's just that for performing work, hydraulics is more efficient.
 All I can say to you FatBird is to try it. You may be surprised by the outcome and what you might learn.
 But then, there are people more knowledgeable than myself. I mean really, what does it take to calcualte r^2Pi= surface area ? it is nothing new and when combined with h (height), then flow can be determined. it really is centuries old. But today, trying something is going against your friends.
 I am not sure why but ask your friends and they will tell you. Also, it could be Heron didn't have any friends just like Archimedes and his contemporary Pythoras.
 And no, don't ask me about the pythogorean theorem because I know nothing about heresy.
 I prefer to deal with facts, just sk my friwend  8)
 
edited to add;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLwkT5vAzCE

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 07:29:59 AM »
Johnny:

Why do you persist to try to derail folks that are actually doing real experiments here?  If you are not intelligent enough to follow along, i can understand that but, please stop with the trash talk.  We do not put up with that here....you get me?  If you want to contribute something constructive, that is fine...but trashing me and TK is NOT constructive.  Post YOUR fountain that you claim is OU.  Where is it?  Oh...you can't make it but it works right?  Everyone here sees right through you so...please give it up.

Bill

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 07:29:59 AM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 03:34:29 PM »
Johnny:

Why do you persist to try to derail folks that are actually doing real experiments here?  If you are not intelligent enough to follow along, i can understand that but, please stop with the trash talk.  We do not put up with that here....you get me?  If you want to contribute something constructive, that is fine...but trashing me and TK is NOT constructive.  Post YOUR fountain that you claim is OU.  Where is it?  Oh...you can't make it but it works right?  Everyone here sees right through you so...please give it up.

Bill

  Bill,
 Just because you do not understand engineering is no reason for you to attack me.
 All anyone has to do is make a working Heron's Fountain and mark the water levels. Then when
they disassemble it, they can cut the tubes to the height of the water level or just below it. After all,
anyone who has gone to school for this type of engineering kmows that water and air follow the same
principles when they are working within a system. It's true one is called pneumatic and the other
hydraulic, but their force potential is calculated just the same when pressurized.
 And by using short tubes, as I mentioned, water would be pumped from one chamber to the next. After
all, water is pumped from the last chamber, right ? It is because if it wasn't so, then it wouldn't be called Heron's
Fountain. So why not pump water from one chamber to the next ? This would maintain a continuous flow.
 And this is completely on topic. I hope you are not upset because I made an observation that you missed Bill.
 Of course, this could create a problem with patent rights. After all, those big bad companies come after people
who build what they sale. Haven't seen it happen yet but will take your word for it. But since i do plan on building
Bessler's wheel and as I have often stated, if what i post leads to an invention, I am perfectly willing to donate said
patent rights to charity. And if heron's Fountain is found to work perpetually by making modifications I have
suggested and is considered my invention, then people like FatBird can pick a charity to give the rights to the invention to.
 
                                                                                                                         Johnny
 
p.s., this will probably be the coolest pm device a person could think of, a fountain. Ya'all do realize that Heron was pretty
smart to have realized hydraulics could work in such a fashion.
 
edited to complete a sentence.

Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2012, 06:53:13 PM »
 you know bill, if you look at what you and tk posted in the my invention thread, it was nothing but a mind game, niether of you at no time considered discussing what the thread was about.
 and yet what are you posting now ? insults and nothing else. you lack the intelligence to understand that heron's fountain didn't work because of gravity but because of a pressure difference and that having a smaller discharge or outlet tube than the fill tube allows hydraulic pressure to work in the direction of least resistence.
 so go ahead and insult me if you like. it is all you and your friens have ever done,

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2012, 06:53:13 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2012, 05:14:39 AM »
I am in the process of rebuilding my fountain using clear plastic tubing (think hose) instead of the drinking straws I used originally.  They we only 8" long and I had to butt "weld" them together to get the lengths I needed and, when preparing to make a video tonight I noticed that one of the "welds" had come undone.  I destroyed the other joints when taking it apart as you can't unscrew the cap once the tubes are glued to the screw caps because when you turn the caps, it rips apart the connections.....well...you get the idea.  I had a roll of clear plastic tubing sitting about so I am using that this time.  No joints so, less chance for leaks in this area.

Once I get it up and running, I WILL post a video of it.  I found some water soluble florescent yellow paint left over from my Wilby's Bird experiments and I mixed it in water.  If I can dig up my ultraviolet  leds, that should look pretty good when operating in the dark.

Right now, I am waiting for the superglue to dry on my caps connections.

Will post as soon as I can.

Bill

Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 04:18:51 PM »
I am in the process of rebuilding my fountain using clear plastic tubing (think hose) instead of the drinking straws I used originally.  They we only 8" long and I had to butt "weld" them together to get the lengths I needed and, when preparing to make a video tonight I noticed that one of the "welds" had come undone.  I destroyed the other joints when taking it apart as you can't unscrew the cap once the tubes are glued to the screw caps because when you turn the caps, it rips apart the connections.....well...you get the idea.  I had a roll of clear plastic tubing sitting about so I am using that this time.  No joints so, less chance for leaks in this area.

Once I get it up and running, I WILL post a video of it.  I found some water soluble florescent yellow paint left over from my Wilby's Bird experiments and I mixed it in water.  If I can dig up my ultraviolet  leds, that should look pretty good when operating in the dark.

Right now, I am waiting for the superglue to dry on my caps connections.

Will post as soon as I can.

Bill

  here's a way you might try it Bill, just trying to be helpful.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5LpJAR3cM0

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 04:18:51 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2012, 06:13:44 PM »
  By the way, am fairly certain I know how to make it perpetual.
 could tell someone after they build one and uncerstands why it works. it might actually be easier to build.
 but there is that nagging question of why bother patenting and getting xome reimbursement for the years of work I put into learning this stuff.

Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 07:01:37 PM »
  here's a drawing of my version of Herons Fountain.
 Because the fill tube has a larger diameter, it can over fill a reservoir beneath it into another reservoir where the discharge tube is located. This barrier would prevent the 2 static heads from balancing themselves which they would do.
 If anyone bothers to build Heron's fountain, you'll find out that the discharge tube as in the video is a smaller static head. And it's the mass of the static head that generates the air pressure for pumping out the reservoir where the outlet tube is located.
 The top view is looking straight down at it. should give everyone a decent idea of how a simple pmm might be built.

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 07:01:37 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »
Well, I was gonna wait until Bill posted his video of his fountain, but after that last set of drawings from johnny874 I feel rather obligated to point out that I published the video below on YouTube on August 25th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlLYD4CSJLU


Offline johnny874

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 11:45:46 PM »
Well, I was gonna wait until Bill posted his video of his fountain, but after that last set of drawings from johnny874 I feel rather obligated to point out that I published the video below on YouTube on August 25th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlLYD4CSJLU

  TK,
 the reason the flow slowed so much when you put the straw on the discharge tube is because the weight of the static head increased. but with what I drew, only one chamber is necessary because of a barrier which can be over flowed. that is what would allow for it possibly going perpetual.
 with 2 similar static heads in something like this, 1 inch diameter is about .78 cubic inches per inch and with a 1/2 inch line, it's about 1/5th cubic inch per inch. it's the weight of the staic head that creates the air pressure. The inlet tube would have about 4 times the force.
 What  might be missed is that air pressure can slow the inlet of water to keep pace with what is being discharged. It would find a balance at some point. And is always possible that some pre pressurization might be required to limit how much water it takes to generate air pressure.
edited to add; if the outlet tube was taller than with the straw, flow would probably reverse itself.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2012, 03:46:56 AM »
TK and all:

I have old Johnny on ignore and can't see what he is posting...I am sure I am not missing much.  Ignore is such a great feature.

Just completed putting my fountain back together and will test it...and then film it tonight.  I did a slight mod to the output part which I just glued together since I got home from work.  I found an ultraviolet led but the output is not really enough to get the full effect so....I will buy a black light bulb and make another video another day using that....tonight's will just be the fountain.

Bill

Offline gadgetmall

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Re: Heron's Fountain
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2012, 05:07:26 AM »
Love it Bill . It's nice to see you and other friendlies doing some more research on stuff . I Love running water sound . so soothing . I have to get some rest now  but i will check in tomorrow for another exciting adventure IN ... Ou.com

Al

 

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