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Author Topic: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity  (Read 141891 times)

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2014, 01:55:08 AM »
verpies and Khwartz,   I know both of you are good people just trying to get to the truth of free energy.   Please don't let yourselves get stuck in a self running loop of misunderstandings and worse ;)    I think much of the problems are from language (and sometimes the associated differences in general expression).   Lets don't let this thread turn in to a flame war.   It's some very good info and work going on here.   I bought some components in hopes of trying some things with this myself.   I just need to go back to understand how to make the U shaped coil and I'll be ready for some experiments.    Cheers
Hi e2matrix! :)

Thanks for your constructive intention :) :) :) :)

Could be verpies is not so bad but I still think he has not himself realised he was ONLY running 1 side of the problem, and you have surely noticed: I don't appreciate his way to think we are necessarily idiotic, unskill, having not the capability to question our own work in France (despite the very well known case of JLN).

zgreudz, I have mentioned just before, came 2 years ago on the cos.com community indeed to prove that all these was just mismeasurements
 2 years after he is still there and is one of the best sustainer. Non to speak of his regular coming on different replication threads to check if everything is in order about the measurements technics.

For now verpies knows near nothing about this device (compare to the quantity of data accumulated) and its replications. So at least he could restrain his skepticism and wait for more informations before to tend to say that it can be true or we have not made a good deal of self checking and self criticism.

Sorry to repeat myself but what is needed is higher skills in the fabrication of very law consumption amplifier with some very specifics like a kind of two way chanel or very very specific transistors, to allow the "negative power" to go through the initial power supply and be harvested in the batteries.

I repeat, yes, it has been done already by the Switzerland former sponsors of Richard, two persons can testify of: Richard himself and PascUser that they had acheived these results.

We need the whole community to help because we need to do an amplifier of the quality the sponsors had made. Then we would be able to selfrun, and then simple "cheap chinees multimeter" will be large enough to prove the selfrun ;)

If verpies can moderate is doubts on our skills in France, I am ready to hear better what he says for a constructive approach ("constructive" doesn't to necessarily be agree or believe, but to grant a certain level of good will and not running always possible outpoints nor thinking only the person knows), otherwise he may go to hells ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Khwartz

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2014, 04:32:33 AM »
@ tim

Dear tim, you remember you asked me about the pigtail ("Queue De Cochon", or "QDC" in French).

BlueDragon told me that it had evrething with the Richard's Autogenerator! 

Indeed, it was in the purpose to economise place that the "RAG" has been made spiralling by PascUser.

Then it has been fond that the space around the QDC was physically affected by the QDC, and when placed on an Robertval balance, strange phenomenons were registered and measured. The frequency for the QDC to influence space was 175 MHz.

Blue confirms too that Keelies ideas are what could be the closest of Richard's theories. Nevertheless, I have to  indicate that hugely enough, the first looks to be "eatheroman" while Richard used the very classical physics and its tools at the very base of his work.

Hope this clarifies a few the question ;)

Best regards,
K.

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2014, 10:44:17 AM »
Hello All! :)

Here is a post which should make happy our dear verpies, not for the content itself, the data, but because he would feel free to laugh at me at will!  ;D

BTW,
this is an important post because this is the viewpoint of skeptic AND a high level engineer, director of a engineering office, specialist in measurements.

I have to say he has not succeed himself to prove yet any conclusive overunity for his own Autogenerator, even if he still continues to invest time on the Autogenerator, in the teem of the Promtecno association.

So, I let him expresses himself as he was nice enough for me to answer me in English:

Quote
Expéditeur: zgreudz
Destinataire: Khwartz
Envoyé en copie à: bluedragon
--------

Quote
Salut zgreudz

{Hi zgreudz}

Je sais grâce à BlueDragon que tu t'y connais en terme de mesures, or je voudrais te demander de bien vouloir jeter un oeil à la liste de points de méthodologie de mesure de puissance pour laquelle je souhaiterais que tu m'indiques lesquels dont tu tiens compte déjà et lesquels tu envisages déjà de mettre en place dans tes propres expérimentations.

{I know thanks to BlueDragon that you know about measurements, while I would like to ask you agree to have a look at the list of items of methodology measurements of power about which I wish you could indicate me which ones you actually take in account and which ones you project to set  in your own experiments. }

C'est sur le fil de proximité informative avec overunity.com.

{This on the mirror like thread with  overunity.com.

http://www.conspirovniscience.com/forum/in...=60&#entry43927

Je sais que c'est en anglais (le but du fil étant d'intéresser justement les non-francophones) et il y a des points je ne sais même pas ce que c'est. Par contre, si tu as vraiment besoin d'aide pour que je te traduire tout ou partie, je suis quand même là pour ça, donc juste demande moi en cas vraiment de besoin ;)

{I know it is in English (the purpose of the thread is indeed to interest the non French tongue) and there are items I even don't know what's that could be. But if you truly need help from me to translate all or a part of, I am here in this purpose, so just ask me in case you need ;) }

Bien amicalement,

{Best regards, }
K.

Bonjour Khwartz

You mean this ?

Quote
(The objection was that working by intragation time after time the data of an oscilloscope, RMS amps and RMS voltage, is not enough to certify a power reading, and that we need to take care too of:)

1) Waveform shapes
2) Crest factors
3) any DC components
4) Quantization errors of ADCs (two such errors get multiplied in power calculations before integration !).
5) The maximum frequency rating of the RMS or U*I multiplier.
6) The relationship between the sampling rate and the maximum frequency content of the measured signal.
7) Resistance and inductance of current sensing resistors or the frequency response of magnetic current probes,
icon_cool.gif The position of the voltage probe in relation to the current sensing element (before/after).
9) Stray capacitances
10) EMI

Yes these are classical precautions that I adressed when I have done measurements on the U I built. First I have to precise I am a skeptical one (openminded but still for me extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence) and at this very moment I found no evidence of overunity on the U and on the GEGENE....But still I am working actively on the subject. So in my opinion it is a bit premature to spread the word when no massive overunity has been demonstrated or ruled out.

1 & 2 are related to devices where there are a lot of harmonics like the tesla coil on a induction plate (GEGENE). For this I built specific measurement devices (electronics wide band current transformer probes). Actually I built 2 matched sensors to compare input and outpout which "identical" devices (in measurement world, identical means having the same mean value within a given tolerance range icon_smile.gif. But this does not apply strongly on the U because the harmonics are limited (except with some bad oscillators)

3 and 4: I adressed by using long term data acquisition (many periodes see below) and fitting a sinus signal on the curves (because here, as Pascuser said, in that case, all signals are nice and sinusoidal). The model is : V[t]= A Cos[omega.t]+B.Sin[omega.t]+C, I estimate A, B, C linearly (linear regression in analytic form) and omega by minimization of the residual error. Then I can calculate the power, impedances, etc. See on my thread that Blue indicated.

5) & 6) all measurement are done with a 4 channels TDS3034 Tektro scope 2.5Gs/s, which can store about 10000 samples per sweep (mean 20 periods max @5MHz), so having enough bandwidth + time and spatial quantization for a precision better than 2% at 5MHz. For quick and dirty evaluation when installing the measurement I use the internal measure functions of the scope, after I check that they are compatible with the results I get from raw samples.

7) & icon_cool.gif For this I built a specific probe (called "Sonde de Zgreudz" on the forum) which is simply an aselfic, ohmic probe of low value resistance. I qualified the probe with reference impedances that I linked to a calibrated measurement bridge HP4784A. So in a way my probe is (remotely) tied to a measurement standard. The position of the probe is taken into account in this (see also my early tests in my thread about the U).

9) Stray capacitances are mesured on the U ( by using my aselfic probe actually) as well as inductance and ohmic losses. From this I built an electrical distributed model of my U. This model, fed by this parameters show the exact measured resonance on my U...meaning my U does not exhibit Vialle effect. I made the tests at low power (only with the signal generator, no amplifier).

My opinion is still there is no proof of evidence of overunity on MY device. I still think also that measuring the currrent and voltage with a floating scope connected at the junction between U and current shunt is a flawed method, especially on high impedances shunts , because in my understanding the return impedance on the scope common is not negligible (this impedance is essentially capacitive). And this is the method that gave overunity results on many experiments.

Voili voilou

{That's all buddy}


PS: je bosse actuellement et activement avec Promtecno sur un ampli plus adapté à faire démarrer le bousin, ainsi que sur un systeme "tout Arduino" mais je ne suis toujours pas dans le camp des convaincus.

{I am presently working hard with Promtecno on an more adapted amplifier to start the raw beast, and on a system "full Arduino" but I am still not on the side the convinced guys.}

A+

{See you}

Z.


Please have a look on my thread, all slide are in french but you can link them.
I told you, you would enjoy it, my dear verpies ;)

Best regards to All!
K.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2014, 10:44:17 AM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2014, 10:48:34 AM »
Hi Khwartz,
  I don't know of the history between you and Verpies, but I do find his posts helpful, and not at all negative or troll-like.

We have to expect and welcome any criticism that may come from the traditional-physics perspective - because they're often right.

I think verpies is just concerned with the difficulty of making good measurements. I certainly am. For example - one thing i intend to test, as soon as it's running, it to use a (specially made, HF) FWBR & capacitor to rectify the output to the load - so I can measure it as DC... Much easier. I have little confidence in my own ability to measure HF AC...

I would like it if we could all just play nicely together... :)

Regards, Tim

Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2014, 11:02:56 AM »
Dear tim, you remember you asked me about the pigtail ("Queue De Cochon", or "QDC" in French).

BlueDragon told me that it had evrething with the Richard's Autogenerator! 

Indeed, it was in the purpose to economise place that the "RAG" has been made spiralling by PascUser.

Then it has been fond that the space around the QDC was physically affected by the QDC, and when placed on an Robertval balance, strange phenomenons were registered and measured. The frequency for the QDC to influence space was 175 MHz.

Blue confirms too that Keelies ideas are what could be the closest of Richard's theories. Nevertheless, I have to  indicate that hugely enough, the first looks to be "eatheroman" while Richard used the very classical physics and its tools at the very base of his work.

Hope this clarifies a few the question ;)

Hi Khwartz,
  I thought so... So perhaps the QDC is the most efficient design - at least in terms of space... Perhaps that answers wistiti's question.

I just got an ebay bargain - I could use to drive a QDC... :) - I got a 1-500MHz Linear amplifier - 150W... For cheap.

But I would need to analyse the autogenerator - and impedance match it - to make sure I don't blow up the amp... Hence my interest in VNAs etc... I also don't have a sig-gen for that frequency ATM... Would have to make one... Maybe from an NE602...?

My feeling is that Keely-physics is the real physics...

:)
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2014, 11:02:56 AM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2014, 11:07:14 AM »
Hi Verpies,
  Pascal, on COS, made a very fair comment in response to your questions about the measurement of OU:

Quote
"The only answer is that person din't do the measurement. "
http://www.conspirovniscience.com/forum/index.php?s=b5ae51d1f0280696b70b9930c4822192&showtopic=1504&st=60#

It's a super-easy thing to replicate. It's not a Rarenergia machine, or LENR, just tube and wires... Do you do replications?

Regards, Tim

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2014, 11:30:15 AM »
Dear tim, I am since long enough in the communities to note when someone just tries to attack me or just share one's informations. There are specific traits and words used and the behaviour has nothing to have with a true friendly approach. (Note that has nothing to have with the relevant aspects of the objections.)

I know he has nothing against you, so it is not the same and study well his posts they were not exactly presented and not with the same emotion or attitude than the one he started to use at the very beginning when he addressed to me, and I can tell you, I saw it immediately and fully clearly, same way anyway he used in an other thread I had created he borred me so much I left him alone. ..

But tim, be sure I have no problem with positive, honest and RESPECTUL criticism, but don't ask me to be nice with the guy who still walk on my foot and intends to stay on!

What I won't never accept is his way to presuppose wrongness when he still not have the data and think he is "the only one" to know something in electronics and physics.

When he will grant more credit to our work and the honesty we invest in it in France, been able to recognise the positive aspects too, could be I will change my mind about him, but I have no reason to be nice with someone who has actively tried to insidiously denigrate my work here. Sorry for that.

Now, as you can see on my previous report, I have no problem to be contradicted and even could ask for!  ;D and indeed, verpies's objections helped me to find other very relevant data for the community here (even if these are not what I would expect ;) ).

Expressing objections is one thing, the way to do is an orher...

Best regards,
K.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2014, 11:30:15 AM »
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Offline Khwartz

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2014, 11:42:39 AM »
Hi Khwartz,
  I thought so... So perhaps the QDC is the most efficient design - at least in terms of space... Perhaps that answers wistiti's question.

I just got an ebay bargain - I could use to drive a QDC... :) - I got a 1-500MHz Linear amplifier - 150W... For cheap.

But I would need to analyse the autogenerator - and impedance match it - to make sure I don't blow up the amp... Hence my interest in VNAs etc... I also don't have a sig-gen for that frequency ATM... Would have to make one... Maybe from an NE602...?

My feeling is that Keely-physics is the real physics...

:)
Tim
Go ahead with your ideas of experimentations!  Tim, any tries if made with application, care, and well analysed is always useful :)

I still know nothing about Keely, but why not?  :)

Have a nice day there!
K.

Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2014, 01:21:32 PM »
Wow, when people say that arduino's are easy to program, they're right... Since I last posted, I've built & compiled a library to run the DDS, and tested one to run the LCD...
Not tested the DDS yet - need connectors... Debugging might be a challenge...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2014, 01:21:32 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2014, 06:38:51 PM »
Pascal, on COS, made a very fair comment in response to your questions about the measurement of OU:
I read his reply, but I have an impression that I have been misunderstood.

Quantization error is created by any ADC. 
It is a vertical error - not a horizontal one (such as clock jitter or undersampling and aliasing).

With two channels (one for current, one for voltage) these quantization errors get multiplied during power calculation.
See the graph attached below how that appears in an extremely bad case or read this thread where someone else makes a bad power measurement because ignoring these vertical quantization errors.

Note that I never wrote that a 2-ch scope is incapable of measuring power accurately.
Also, I never wrote that power measurement by 2-ch scope is good only for pure sine waves. 

PMEAN = MEAN(UI *II)         , where the subscript "I" denotes "instantaneous".
is a universal method of power measurement if done with due diligence* and it will correctly measure any waveform, regardless of waveform shape and I-V phase offset.*

However this:
PMEAN = URMS * IRMS * cos(Φ)
is not a universal method of power measurement.  It is good only for pure sine waves.  Even if the waveform is pure, then it is still subject to the frequency limitation of the multiplier inside the RMS converter. 
BTW: you cannot determine if a sine wave is pure just by looking at it on the scope's screen in time domain. 
See this video for what I mean.

Do you do replications?
When I see an anomaly then I do.


*  In this case "due diligence" means ensuring simultaneous sampling of the voltage and current channels (non interleaved sampling), ensuring that ENOBs of ADCs are fully utilized (thus quantization errors are minimized), ensuring that the current sensing resistor is really non-inductive with HF spectral measurements,  not undersampling any of the channels - preventing aliasing, arithmetically averaging the instantaneous UI * II multiplication results to obtain average power (not performing any RMS operations on them!).

Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #175 on: February 07, 2014, 07:01:05 PM »
Hi Verpies,
  thanks for that very clear explanation... I think that measurements are often a source of disagreements...

So, what about that VNA project? :)

Regards, Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #175 on: February 07, 2014, 07:01:05 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #176 on: February 07, 2014, 07:36:43 PM »
Hmmm, it appears that one of my posts didn't get posted...

I was asking Verpies for some tech help with the VNA... Will do it in a PM...

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #177 on: February 07, 2014, 08:28:35 PM »
Dear tim, I am since long enough in the communities to note when someone just tries to attack me or just share one's informations. There are specific traits and words used and the behaviour has nothing to have with a true friendly approach. (Note that has nothing to have with the relevant aspects of the objections.)

I know he has nothing against you, so it is not the same and study well his posts they were not exactly presented and not with the same emotion or attitude than the one he started to use at the very beginning when he addressed to me, and I can tell you, I saw it immediately and fully clearly, same way anyway he used in an other thread I had created he borred me so much I left him alone. ..

But tim, be sure I have no problem with positive, honest and RESPECTUL criticism, but don't ask me to be nice with the guy who still walk on my foot and intends to stay on!

What I won't never accept is his way to presuppose wrongness when he still not have the data and think he is "the only one" to know something in electronics and physics.

When he will grant more credit to our work and the honesty we invest in it in France, been able to recognise the positive aspects too, could be I will change my mind about him, but I have no reason to be nice with someone who has actively tried to insidiously denigrate my work here. Sorry for that.

Now, as you can see on my previous report, I have no problem to be contradicted and even could ask for!  ;D and indeed, verpies's objections helped me to find other very relevant data for the community here (even if these are not what I would expect ;) ).

Expressing objections is one thing, the way to do is an orher...

Best regards,
K.


I'll just inject one more thought here.   Having been on the Internet since the times before they even had web browsers I learned early on that it is often a big difference between talking to someone face to face and getting cues from their tone of voice versus writing text on the Internet where you cannot really tell a person's tone of voice easily.   Maybe things would be different if you were talking in person to verpies.   This is one reason smilies were created to assist in understanding a person's tone but not everyone is keen on using them.  I also do not see verpies as being trollish here - just wants to know that all has been done correctly as most people want to know this for the purpose of determining if it is worth investing their time and money in doing a replication.  Thanks for your understanding and continued sharing of info here.   

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #178 on: February 07, 2014, 08:35:23 PM »
Wow, when people say that arduino's are easy to program, they're right... Since I last posted, I've built & compiled a library to run the DDS, and tested one to run the LCD...
Not tested the DDS yet - need connectors... Debugging might be a challenge...
Nice to know they are easy but I have to ask if you have previous programming skills or have worked with C++ language or similar?   I thought about getting an Arduino when they first got started but due to price decided to go with the Texas Instruments version called Launchpad as it was practically being given away at around $4.   But so far it has sat there as it looked like it would take way more of my time than I would like to spend to just get the basics down.   Of course there is less support for the Lauchpad than the Arduino but still a lot out there.   May I ask which Arduino you got or would recommend as I looked again recently and see a lot of choices now?   

Offline tim123

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Re: Richard VIALLE's new theory about negative mass and overunity
« Reply #179 on: February 07, 2014, 09:17:06 PM »
Nice to know they are easy but I have to ask if you have previous programming skills...

Ummm, actually it's my job...  I feel like i cheated...  :-[

;) lol

I've got an Arduino Uno (£10). The Due has much more power...

There's soooo much choice now with single-board-computers... Was looking at the Raspberry Pi - cos it's so popular. Olimex do some great boards... The problem is *always* the software - and the arduino folks seem to have it sussed with their 'wiring-code' language...

The one that's *really* interesting is this one: http://www.parallella.org/
Their SBC has a normal processor, and 16 extra processors in another chip. All for $99.
More processing power per watt that anything else available! I think i need one... :)

 

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