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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: wizkycho on August 27, 2012, 10:36:27 PM
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Hi all !
this is where I left off in field of PM Only motors, and this is where I really "felt the force"
http://www.overunity.com/316/rotational-pmm-by-wizkycho/msg151552/#msg151552 (http://www.overunity.com/316/rotational-pmm-by-wizkycho/msg151552/#msg151552)
but realized - it is repulsion type device and eventually it is prone to weaken or even lose magnetic field of PMs. (so not practical)
Now I present you pure attractional type device with really great properties:
- capable of COP 15 or higher
(i used 4 segments if used more COP increases proportionaly)
- Input Rotor needs mechanicall energy only to overcome friction
(regardless of number of segments and regardless of how heavy load is on Output Rotor)
In return IR creates four (in my setup) fluctuating (0.03T to 0.8T) and rotating magnetic fields
that are strongly attracting (repositioning) permeable material on Output Rotor
- whatever is happening with Output Rotor -> Input Rotor is not influenced, not even a bit. -> Load is not transfered to Input Rotor whatsoever
The simplicity, energy gain, ammount of energy at output and longevity is just wonderfull
think of it - this is very powerfull device and most powerfull of devices that we currently have blueprints and understanding of how to build it.
I came up with this idea after many experiments conducted by mr. Hildebrand, Genesis and many members of OU.com , me included.
http://www.overunity.com/1319/magnetic-energy-pump-ou-motor/msg164396/#msg164396 (http://www.overunity.com/1319/magnetic-energy-pump-ou-motor/msg164396/#msg164396)
Congrats to mr. Calloway on his working V-Track motor (http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=oJv58SXx2V8 (http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=oJv58SXx2V8))
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@Harti
greetings
FDM_v1_anim_mid.gif is static it should be animation ?
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Hi all !
i'm bit dissapointed
that You all have been unable to see that my device (FDM) is the best way to achieve overunity.
is there OU device with more powerfull output or higher gain then FDM and with complete blueprints ? please do enlighten me !
Recent topics are just chasing milliwats or mere fog with hazy incomplete data.
please, just prove my following claims wrong !:
- capable of COP 15 or higher
(i used 4 segments if used more COP increases proportionaly)
- Input Rotor needs mechanicall energy only to overcome friction
(regardless of number of segments and regardless of how heavy load is on Output Rotor)
In return IR creates four (in my setup) fluctuating (0.03T to 0.8T) and rotating magnetic fields
that are strongly attracting (repositioning) permeable material on Output Rotor
- whatever is happening with Output Rotor -> Input Rotor is not influenced, not even a bit. -> Load is not transfered to Input Rotor whatsoever
Thanks
Igor Knitel
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This might not work as you expect it to. You might look in all the lafonte research to see why. And don't highjack other threads, it's kind of rude.
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@broli
Exactly why do You think FDM would not work
please be exact, where do You think is an error.
I'm only stating my well educated opinion, based on exact experiments
and this is not Your call to shush me. Or Big Money got You Too...
such a pitty if so cause You had brilliant and applicapable Lorentz force ideas...
Free Energy and Overunity lives forewer
We shall never surender
Perihelion Labs
CEO Igor Knitel
now lets talk about OIL disasters, Green House effect., draughts, and possible annihilation of animal and possibly human species
and a Cure for all that tremendous stupidity (hope that Einstain was not right bout one thing - that stupidity is most powerfull force in universe):
We must allways prove him wrong about that thing over and over again PERPETUALY.
so where do you think FDM is not working as stated ?
All the best
Igor Knitel
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Hi all !
can somebody supply me with or recommend where to order:
laser or water cuted silicon iron sheets (low frequency 50-60Hz - transformer grade material)
if sheets are thick 0.5mm then need 50 sheets
if sheets are thick 0.3mm then need 75 sheets
dimmensions are on attachment
I'll send vector file format for CNC, not jpg, if needed.
anybody !
kind regards
Igor Knitel
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This is an interesting design in that it appears to meet all the right field conditions. Where are all the cad plans with the details?
I usually like to reverse the conditions in the two rotor systems to investigate the operational problem so here is another concept.
Suppose the outer rotor is stationary and the inner rotor is only for control and can rotate about 90 degrees and the STATOR is now the rotor.
Do the same conditions exist for operation? This design would require no input and is exactly the same provided there is no drag on the input rotor as stated.
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Interesting but I think you are over a lot of people's heads with this and well beyond most peoples capabilities to build a unit like this. If you believe it will work and have the ability to build it then that would be great. I think there are a few people here who could analyze this to see how well it might work. If you have more detailed plans or pictures that may help get more comments. We would all love to see a COP >15 or even great than 5 motor.
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can somebody supply me with or recommend where to order:
Try this:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/index.cfm (http://www.onlinemetals.com/index.cfm)
or this:
http://scientificalloys.net/ (http://scientificalloys.net/)
or just google "silicon iron" or so.
Yet another source:
http://www.overunity.com/collapse/c/9/sa/expand/d85bfe42/bcc0f80ab8906ec03345f3e8a99c7af1/#c9
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Hi wizkycho,
I like the idea. Magnets in inner rotor create and control field intensity bottoms in stator steel while outer rotor follows the field peaks. Indirect 1:1 magnetic coupling.
Construction does not look cheap to me. Inner rotor would probably need custom made magnets. Stator ring needs to be sufficiently big to accommodate inner rotor. Definitely a >100€ build.
regards,
Marcel
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Ok, so here are the results I find.
No matter how it looks, the results indicate no torque is produced.
The primary reason is because placing the magnet inside the ring magnet to absorb the flux does not only absorb the flux but draws more flux from further away to replace the void of flux so nothing really changes.
This did of course lead to another concept that I show in the second picture. The shaded pole rotor!
With the rotor plugged with loops of copper, the exit field will be shaded and should have less attraction on exiting the steel stator.
On approach, the field moves between the copper loops and is unimpeded, but as the rotor turns the field must move through the rings and is delayed at exit and should be much weaker.
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I made some changes to increase the effect on the original design to see if any torque can exist with this type of concept.
In fact when one half of the ring magnet is shaded with steel plates and another magnet to adsorb the field, the results do show some torque!
The rotor in this picture shows a torque of .08 foot pounds in the clockwise direction as expected.
I'm thinking if the slits in the plate were angled, the torque might increase.
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In Maxwell 3d I learned that accuracy depends a lot on element size. I use it mainly to visualize fields and leave the rest to my brain.
This concept is very similar to many lafonte like ideas I have been simulating the past year. In most if not all of the designs the air gap was very important, the smaller the better, however the simulation had to be more accurate because of this so I had to increase the element size in some areas. This proved to be quite a heavy burden when you don't have a mini super computer at your disposal.
This is why I told him it wouldn't work, especially if the airgap between rotor and stator is tiny. But don't take my word for it, experimentation is always key. And you don't need a laminated stator to prove the concept just use solid machined steel blocks and make sure you have a tight airgap, then slowly rotate the inner rotor and see if the outer rotor will follow.
Lumen also made an interesting remark about the generator side of this concept. Which is what I have been exploring for a while now.
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do not now where you guys wen't wrong with input parameters !
let's simplify this:
If InputRotor is certain to reroute (not shield) magnetic field
and therefore make gradient field (from 0.03T to 0.8T) at output rotor
- output rotor indubidably produces force vectorized from lowest to highest field strenght (this is a must)
I allso use simmulations and calculations
how to best reroute magnetic field of ring magnet (see FEM analysis above) (I suppose there is your error in Your simmulation)
but there are allso real experiments made to observe rerouting of magnetic field and make it appear where it is needed.
@broli
some LaFonte designs are not working, some really do (interaction of Magnet - and so called Fanners
works very good in FE mode... many other more or less complex LaFonte designs works too)
wiz
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I'll start building version 2 cause it is easier to build and experiment with
from some aspects - exp. distances, stator - input rotor,stator - output rotor
I've ordered a ring magnet
broly and lumen shall prepare necessery simmulations
this time with correct parrameters
wiz
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Let me show you the most basic and recent design I ended up with after going through countless designs for these "zero air gap continuous core" lafonte based ideas.
The only parts that rotate are the two C magnets on top. As the C magnets rotate around they change the field inside of the stationary C coils, however irregardless of how they are energized the coils will not affect the rotation of the magnets in anyway ie a torqueless generator. No expensive custom laser cut laminates needed common rolled silicon steel cores will do.
The simulation shows how the nearest C core is preferred over the other magnet on the other side as to dump most of its field through it. This is an important aspect of the design, if the field were to go around then the coils will induce little to no voltage.
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Hi Broli,
Great idea, that will work. I have tested it before but replace the C cores with magnets on washers and let it roll directly on the plate. No space required and allows the full flux to go to the C core. I tried this over a C core and it generates a nice sharp pulse when it rides over it. It may be better to use non-ferromagnetic spacers so the full flux goes through each C core individually
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It's a clever idea but you might be over complicating things. I did do some high element 2D FEMM simulations just to investigate that specific aspect of things and discovered the air gap doesn't have to be THAT small.
For instance below you see such a FEMM simulation where there's two magnets, the outer core is to circumvent the 2d limitation of FEMM. When you analyze the forces on these magnets you find that the upper magnet experiences a sideway force of -29 mN and the bottom one a force of 22mN. So even though the airgap is much bigger the side way force is equally or even less strong than the one with a very tiny airgap.
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Guys ! You are just tripi'n beserk !!!
goto page 1 (of this thread)
wiz
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Hey you wanted me to be constructive didn't you. For reasons beyond me you are ignoring the fact that your motor concept will not generate a torque. Irregardless of how you position the inner rotor the fields will just disperse and bend in order to reach the outer magnets, there's no reason for it to "follow" the inner magnets. because of the uniform surface.
However you may alter your stator core slightly by breaking the uniformity on the outside, see below. Also get rid of the ring magnet, it serves no purpose.
Edit: When I get home I'll post a better rendition.
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... try it. For You it might work
wiz
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... try it. For You it might work
wiz
Upon further thought I realized even the non uniform surface wouldn't help so why try to circumvent the very feature that would make this a good generator (no torque). I would just stick to the generator side of things.
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@broli
i will try some suggestions upon completion of setup especially to use solid cores stator just for proof of the concept.
- directly making it generator would not work cause of Lentz counter fields that are generated and would
negatively influence primary rotor. (at this stage I do not see how it can be done)
Input rotor magnets on FDM version 1 are not drawn correctly. and such positioned magnets only reroutes half of the field of the ring magnet
(although even build as drawn device is over 100% efficiency)
but if magnets are placed correctly (like simulated in FEM analysis) and afterwards drawn in FDM version 2 whole field of the 1/8 segment
is rerouted and therfore create huge difference of magnetic field strenght in respect to position
of permeable segment of output rotor and that certanly creates torque.
hope I get evenly magnetized ring magnet and that is allso reqirement for device to work properly.
wiz
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Hi Broli,
Thanks for looking at it with the sim.
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This reminds me of a potential steel core that can be used for the rings. It's called strapping steel, comes in rolls, is usually paint coated to prevent corrosion and pretty cheap, these features are very handy for a ring core. Sure it's not as good as silicon steel but it doesn't have to be, as long as it traps the flux and keeps eddy currents at a minimum it should be fine. It's the coil cores that have to be more efficient.
Edit: Or another potentially interesting source: http://www.ukmag.net/magnets/magnet_105.aspx
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Broli,
Once you said "generator" I was thinking that the shaded pole rotor I posted back a few posts may work very well as a generator.
If you think about the ring magnet spinning on it's axis with the two plates attached, it would be drag free even with the stator pole nearby.
Those colored links on the picture would be windings and the more load that is applied the more it would reduce the drag on the rotor until it spins by itself.
It would be like an inverted lenz affect where the back emf to the flow direction of the field would accelerate the rotor.
Is it possible to build the inverse of an electric motor where it runs not by putting power in but by taking power out?
So the line of thinking goes anyway.
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The potential ideas for these type of concepts are limitless, below is another variant, it basically comes down to one question; what's the most budget friendly design to build a prototype out of, preferably using off the shelf parts.
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well
... some simpler setup using same principles should be made and experiment on.
Using coils at start for input is somewhat ineficient (Ohmic resistance loss), allso using
coils for output inevitably induces Lentz back emf that opposes inital changes in field parameters even if
it is a field of permanent magnets
(see MEG setups and experiments - it is very "streched" FE and highly sensitive
not to drop under 100% efficiency).
Some MEG-like experiments even go to COP 2.3 - might work in certain conditions.
Using Permanent Magnets in mechanicall (output is lentzless, input constructed to be in constant equilibrium)
might produce better results.
wiz
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, allso using
coils for output inevitably induces Lentz back emf that opposes inital changes in field parameters even if
it is a field of permanent magnets
Simulations and certain experiments show otherwise, irregardless of how the coils are energized they have little to no effect on the magnets. It's always important to have a continuous solid layer of ferromagnetic material between the coils and magnets, this probably sounds like a vague statement but that's what I've discovered.
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wizkycho:
In the shaded pole rotor, (a variation of your design), operation depends on Lenz law providing back EMF to increase the rotation.
The idea is that as the magnetic flux changes direction to pass through the coils, the loaded coils generate back EMF to reduce or delay the field so there is less attraction to the iron stator on exit as there was on entering.
Operates on the same principal as a shaded pole motor.
The fact that electrical current is produced in the coils only at the point of the stator exit indicates a lesser pull on exit because of lenz's law. The force cannot be translated back to the rotor except to increase rotation.
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Hi all !
I have tried to order an ring magnet from china and magnet is not as expensive
but shipping cost a fortune.
where to order with lowest shipping price ?
@lumen
Where have you seen such "LenzAddingEnergyToOutput" setup, any links to experiment
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Where have you seen such "LenzAddingEnergyToOutput" setup, any links to experiment
Of course there is no ADDING energy from back EMF, and if there were not back EMF then all generators would require little force to operate.
What I am looking at is how the back EMF in a shaded pole motor causes a field delay to produce rotation. That same effect may be able to provide a field delay that could offset the balance in a normally symmetrical rotor/stator combination that has the field provided by a permanent magnet.
The idea is to use the back EMF of some windings on the rotor to delay the field at the point the rotor is leaving the stator making for a weaker field to unbalance the system. There is no way the back EMF can affect the rotor because the coils are moving with the rotor and can only push back against the field of the permanent magnet.
In effect it trying to accomplish the same effect you are after by trying to reduce the field strength in one area with another magnet so to cause a rotation.
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I have recent threats to my property from "Mr." Ante Karamatić (+385 (0) 98 719 778) Špansko 10 works in Allianz, therefore there is another
allmost proof of concept that FDM works. Yes !
Mr. Karamatić has help from Mardešić Petar that works
M.+385 (0) 98 503 082 Magdalena - klinika za kardiovaskularne bolesti [/b][/size] Medicinskog fakulteta Sveucilišta J.J. Strossmayera u Osijeku Ljudevita Gaja 2
49217 Krapinske Toplice
Croatia
I'll post a movie of their destructive moves.
Igor Knitel
To infinity then another mile
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... my previous mail was disturbing
for now seem like it was just missinformed and emotional outburst (not guided by some lobby) of two of my
neighbours ...
After accepting right informations, emotions have been somewhat normalized
keep up good experimenting
...
wiz
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hy
back to experimenting
I have been unable to purchase ring magnet for constructing v2 so decided to get small magnets
and make segmented ring magnet. I made only stator.
Experiment showed that static ring magnetic field is rerouted completely, although length of magnetic path is only 20mm.
So one of main principles of work are proven.
Device is not working cause unrouted static ring magnets fields would bend, curve and close their field through
permeable material that is unsloted (incuts). I could make slots wider and longer to streighten (make paths in line) the paths of
segmented magnetic fields, but think that completely segmented permeable parts would be better. This way spacing between
segments could be regulated, and influence between magnetized and nonmagnetized segments lowered.
On the other hand, equilibrium of forces in respect to rotation of prime rotor would be slightly dificult to achieve, which is
other property needed for this to function. But could be done.
Further experiments to come
Wiz
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... segmented version
only stator shown
magnets are not drawn (should be placed in circular fashion and thighten with plastic ring)
bluish - mag. permeable material
whitish - hard plastic
Moving of primary rotor now is not without energy spent cause of spacing between segments ...
but by making another stator which is rotated by few degrees, forces of attraction would cancel each other
making only friction needed to be overcomed by primary (input) rotor. At a same time energy can be collected on two
output rotors.
more experiments to come
Wiz
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Stator is made. magnets 5*5*10 mm (red marks south) are placed between two magnetically permeable bars and that
pattern is repeated.
After magnets are placed and glued, plastic ring is added to hold them firmly.
now to make primary rotor (flux displacer)
and mech. energy output rotor
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drawings of
input rotor (mag.displacer):
- greenish are mag.permeable metal with magnet inbetween polarized opposite in respect to magnets on stator.
output rotor:
- white(ish) mag.permeable metal shaped in manner to be gradually attracted to nondisplaced (unrouted) magnetic field
of stator magnets.
... primary rotor works on principle that when leaving one mag. segment at stator it is moving towards next mag. segment
and forces of attraction but opposite vectors cancels each other leaving only friction to overcome.
Therefore, if more magnetic segments are added (around wider circumferences) mech. energy at output rises
while energy input for overcoming friction stays very closely the same !
keep up good experimenting
Wiz
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The parts look nicely built.
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The plastic streched out of dimensions so I ordered Plexi CNC machining. The parts have arrived.
All the best
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Here is stator and primary rotor ... need to spin it to see rotor free of any cogging.
if cogging is present should be balanced by shorting permeable segments bit by bit till
cogging seases.
Another free cogging is to build 2 or even more stator - rotor combinations fixed on different angle same axis
So cogging (this is where input E loss occurs) can be overcomed and then
all of the requirements are met for this to be free energy device.
I wish that I work in professional Free Energy research firm with more time and just a bit more funds, to make this
beautiful machine. But there is no such thing...for now
so it can't stop so it want stop....
all the best
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Here is stator and primary rotor ... need to spin it to see rotor free of any cogging.
if cogging is present should be balanced by shorting permeable segments bit by bit till
cogging seases.
Another free cogging is to build 2 or even more stator - rotor combinations fixed on different angle same axis
So cogging (this is where input E loss occurs) can be overcomed and then
all of the requirements are met for this to be free energy device.
I wish that I work in professional Free Energy research firm with more time and just a bit more funds, to make this
beautiful machine. But there is no such thing...for now
so it can't stop so it want stop....
all the best
Yes, Nice building.
I have been working on a very similar device when it suddenly hit me.
Howard Johnson's motor may have operated on the same principal but it's possible he may not have understood the answer because there was not good simulation back then.
Once you see my latest animated simulation, you will quickly grasp the concept behind building a powerful magnet motor.(in theory)