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Author Topic: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)  (Read 31077 times)

Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »
Let me show you the most basic and recent design I ended up with after going through countless designs for these "zero air gap continuous core" lafonte based ideas.

The only parts that rotate are the two C magnets on top. As the C magnets rotate around they change the field inside of the stationary C coils, however irregardless of how they are energized the coils will not affect the rotation of the magnets in anyway ie a torqueless generator. No expensive custom laser cut laminates needed common rolled silicon steel cores will do.

The simulation shows how the nearest C core is preferred over the other magnet on the other side as to dump most of its field through it. This is an important aspect of the design, if the field were to go around then the coils will induce little to no voltage.

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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2012, 10:20:01 PM »
Hi Broli,

Great idea, that will work. I have tested it before but replace the C cores with magnets on washers and let it roll directly on the plate. No space required and allows the full flux to go to the C core. I tried this over a C core and it generates a nice sharp pulse when it rides over it. It may be better to use non-ferromagnetic spacers so the full flux goes through each C core individually

Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 11:09:14 PM »
It's a clever idea but you might be over complicating things. I did do some high element 2D FEMM simulations just to investigate that specific aspect of things and discovered the air gap doesn't have to be THAT small.

For instance below you see such a FEMM simulation where there's two magnets, the outer core is to circumvent the 2d limitation of FEMM. When you analyze the forces on these magnets you find that the upper magnet experiences a sideway force of -29 mN and the bottom one a force of 22mN. So even though the airgap is much bigger the side way force is equally or even less strong than the one with a very tiny airgap.

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2012, 11:09:14 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 08:58:38 AM »
Guys ! You are just tripi'n beserk !!!
goto page 1 (of this thread)
wiz

Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 09:34:08 AM »
Hey you wanted me to be constructive didn't you. For reasons beyond me you are ignoring the fact that your motor concept will not generate a torque. Irregardless of how you position the inner rotor the fields will just disperse and bend in order to reach the outer magnets, there's no reason for it to "follow" the inner magnets. because of the uniform surface.

However you may alter your stator core slightly by breaking the uniformity on the outside, see below.  Also get rid of the ring magnet, it serves no purpose.

Edit: When I get home I'll post a better rendition.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:31:37 PM by broli »

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 09:34:08 AM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 02:18:48 PM »
... try it. For You it might work
wiz

Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 04:51:48 PM »
... try it. For You it might work
wiz

Upon further thought I realized even the non uniform surface wouldn't help so why try to circumvent the very feature that would make this a good generator (no torque). I would just stick to the generator side of things.

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 04:51:48 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 07:37:40 PM »
@broli
i will try some suggestions upon completion of setup especially to use solid cores stator just for proof of the concept.
- directly making it generator would not work cause of Lentz counter fields that are generated and would
negatively influence primary rotor. (at this stage I do not see how it can be done)
 
Input rotor magnets on FDM version 1 are not drawn correctly. and such positioned magnets only reroutes half of the field of the ring magnet
(although even build as drawn device is over 100% efficiency)
but if magnets are placed correctly (like simulated in FEM analysis) and afterwards drawn in FDM version 2 whole field of the 1/8 segment
is rerouted and therfore create huge difference of magnetic field strenght in respect to position
of permeable segment of output rotor and that certanly creates torque.
 
hope I get evenly magnetized ring magnet and that is allso reqirement for device to work properly.
 
wiz

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »
Hi Broli,

Thanks for looking at it with the sim.

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 10:29:13 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 09:04:11 AM »
This reminds me of a potential steel core that can be used for the rings. It's called strapping steel, comes in rolls, is usually paint coated to prevent corrosion and pretty cheap, these features are very handy for a ring core. Sure it's not as good as silicon steel but it doesn't have to be, as long as it traps the flux and keeps eddy currents at a minimum it should be fine. It's the coil cores that have to be more efficient.

Edit: Or another potentially interesting source: http://www.ukmag.net/magnets/magnet_105.aspx
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:34:04 AM by broli »

Offline lumen

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 05:06:07 PM »
Broli,

Once you said "generator" I was thinking that the shaded pole rotor I posted back a few posts may work very well as a generator.
If you think about the ring magnet spinning on it's axis with the two plates attached, it would be drag free even with the stator pole nearby.
Those colored links on the picture would be windings and the more load that is applied the more it would reduce the drag on the rotor until it spins by itself.
It would be like an inverted lenz affect where the back emf to the flow direction of the field would accelerate the rotor.
Is it possible to build the inverse of an electric motor where it runs not by putting power in but by taking power out?
So the line of thinking goes anyway.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 04:47:04 AM by lumen »

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 05:06:07 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2012, 11:42:45 PM »
The potential ideas for these type of concepts are limitless, below is another variant, it basically comes down to one question; what's the most budget friendly design to build a prototype out of, preferably using off the shelf parts.

Offline wizkycho

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2012, 01:18:40 PM »
well
... some simpler setup using same principles should be made and experiment on.
 
Using coils at start for input is somewhat ineficient (Ohmic resistance loss), allso using
coils for output inevitably induces Lentz back emf that opposes inital changes in field parameters even if
it is a field of permanent magnets
 
(see MEG setups and experiments - it is very "streched" FE and highly sensitive
not to drop under 100% efficiency).
Some MEG-like experiments even go to COP 2.3 - might work in certain conditions.
 
Using Permanent Magnets in mechanicall (output is lentzless, input constructed to be in constant equilibrium)
might produce better results.
 
wiz

Offline broli

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2012, 03:20:39 PM »
, allso using
coils for output inevitably induces Lentz back emf that opposes inital changes in field parameters even if
it is a field of permanent magnets

Simulations and certain experiments show otherwise, irregardless of how the coils are energized they have little to no effect on the magnets. It's always important to have a continuous solid layer of ferromagnetic material between the coils and magnets, this probably sounds like a vague statement but that's what I've discovered.

Offline lumen

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Re: FDM - flux displacer motor by Igor Knitel (Perihelion Labs)
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2012, 04:26:40 PM »
wizkycho:

In the shaded pole rotor, (a variation of your design), operation depends on Lenz law providing back EMF to increase the rotation.

The idea is that as the magnetic flux changes direction to pass through the coils, the loaded coils generate back EMF to reduce or delay the field so there is less attraction to the iron stator on exit as there was on entering.

Operates on the same principal as a shaded pole motor.
The fact that electrical current is produced in the coils only at the point of the stator exit indicates a lesser pull on exit because of lenz's law. The force cannot be translated back to the rotor except to increase rotation.


 

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