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Author Topic: Eds design  (Read 93569 times)

ourbobby

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2008, 04:37:41 PM »
Ed Gray, never have find and TRIODE-TUBE than can wort with the announced

G.Pese

Hi there Pese,
                      I have spent a lot of time on this tube idea as well. It resembles more a Pentode valve, with the exception that the "screens" are used as collectors and the positve voltage on the anode is used as a positive screen to stop the electons from going past the screens. Just IMHO.

Regards

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2008, 05:24:52 AM »
Here is a new photo of the EMA6 from 1/9/76 Stockholders Meeting to add to your collections.

(Darn the photo is to large at 10MB in a pdf format to attach to this post) I'll have to go to Kinkos and convert these .pdf files to. jpg format and then reduce the resolution. My Version 5 of PhotoShop doesn't do this.

The photo I was going to post is the reverse view of the EMA6 motor from the opposite side, showing details of the commentator and the muffin fans on the power supplies. It also shows a cleaner view of the CSET's

At this meeting it was disclosed by Dr. Norm Chalfin that the measured output of this motor [EMA6] was only 2 HP, all be it near 100%, not counting the recycled energy which may have put it at a COP of about 1.5 or so. The lawyers on the board wanted no mention of any OU energy. Never the less the dismal performance of this "new" motor whitch was three years more advanced (supposidly) than the 100 HP EMA4-E2 killed any further investor support. Gray and Hackenburger continued to work on the motor at least till April of that year by making additional modifications. This was done by adding additional "donuts" in the commutator section. Hackenburger was cut off the payroll by June and had to get a job as a cab driver. He did hang around and worked for free when they had resources to do anything. Mr. Hackenburger was a firm believer in this technology and as far as I can tell did everything he could to make it main stream.

Another photo (again not posted) shows the use of a large vintage Tektronix Oscilloscope (I would speculate it was a 7904 model or something the same size). Therefore Mr. Hackenburger was looking at measurements far deeper than I had thought before.

Richard  did say that the current pulses were on the order of milliseconds - which is pretty long for a capacitor discharge. You can do your own calculations and see what kind of Capacitor and inductor values will lend itself to that kind of oscillation period.

While government interferance did severly impact the sucess of this technology - the shear lack of performance was probably more detrimental. At the time of the stockholders meeting this organization was cash starved and litigation was still on-going with the LA DA. By the time there was a resolution to those legal matters the game was all over. The original equipment was returned a few months later - in boxes. Apparently, the equipment had been mistakenly (ha,ha) run through a scrap iron shredder (or something like that). Of course E.V. Gray didn't have the litigation power to seek recourse or even file a complaint. This is probably why they had to work so hard and so long to find something to pin on him.

What appears to have happend after the stockholders meeting was a general breakdown in confidence of E.V.Gray's technical ability to reproduce his (or actually Marvin Cole's) earlier work. Richard Hackenburger did his best to reproduce the Cole technology, but may have missed some important point. He was not dumb. Listening to audio tapes of him speaking at the time I hear a quick and focused individual frustrated by the dumb decesions by the board of directors. Richard only had a year to work with the original surviving equipment. Once it was confiscated he didn't get a second chance to go back and see what he might have missed. - What a shame.

I suspect that he had it pretty well figured out generally, but was unaware of some simple but important technical feature - like the materials used in the spark gaps or something like that. He claimed that the technology used in the EMA6 was superior to that of the EMA4-E2 - to bad he couldn't prove it by the time of the stockholders meeting.

This was also the time that E.V. Gray's 2nd wife Renete and her father Fred Lenz could see the hand writing on the wall and decided to bail. Fred cast his lot with the investors who were attempting to get control of the patent as liquidated damages against Gray. Fred claimed that he was the builder of the motor and therefore it was his. By the end of the year (1976) Renete had filed for a divorse.

Somehow Gray was able to limp along for the next few years until 1979 when the FCC came in and confiscated the EMA6 and anything else he had left in the shop for EMI interferance. The technology never recovered after this.

Richard Hackenburger got sick in 1980 and was dead withing a week. I doubt if the MIB bumped off E.V. Gray, but I'm not so sure about Richard. If anyone had any idea of the principles of the Marvin Cole technology it was Richard - certainly not Gray.

Spokane1

turbo

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2008, 10:13:13 PM »
hi can you post this picture in the download selection?  :)

Thanks.

PS somebody mentioned the radiant effects only run in the gigaherts.
The effect can be generated at any frequency it is the voltage and pulse duration that makes it happen.
The Gray circuit was claimed to be running around 6Khz.

Marco.

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2008, 10:42:34 PM »
Dear Marco,

I would love to upload this collection of new vintage photos. But the smallest one is 6 MB. I had Kinkos scan the original slides and photos at 2400 dpi and thus the large file sizes. (some are 75 MB) They also did it in .pdf format whic is almost impossible to work with as a photo. I need to correct the white balance and reduce the resolution to Internet sizes, but this is going to take some time and maybe some $$.

On, the other technical questions I can only offer my unelightened opinion. I believe both bits of information are correct. First off the 6 KHz frequency relates to the "Electro Static Generator" Black Boxes output. This was actually observed on an Oscilloscope in 1974, It was a 50% duty cycle DC square wave. It is claimed by Richard Hackenburger that the technology used in these "Black Box Inverters" was the same as that was used in the motor.

According to other documentation the motor was producing pulses at a rate of 200,000 per minute or at a rate of 3.333 KHz. Now this was from the output of 12 (or more)  unit power supplies. The power supplies themselves were alledgedly (from John Bedini) running from something that sounded like automotive vibrators which operate at 100 Hz.

So, I think is safe to say the the excitation current pulses were being provided at a rate of 3KHz to 8 KHz. Now the resulting non-classical energies produced by the arcs or what ever is a different matter.  A common arc will generate frequencies from DC to daylight. So speculations about gigahertz frequencies being associated with the Radiant Energy phenomena may be correct. It is still a matter of just how such high frequencies are harvested and optimized.

A study of the Tesla desk top oscillators will yield a lot of good information about the operation of these kinds of circuits. The energy is pulsed into the resonate circuit at a low rate, but the resulting oscillations are determined by the parameters of the secondary circuit, which is generally much higher. It is like ringing a bell - a single stroke of a hammer results in oscillations in the audio range. The interesting thing about the Tesla oscillators is that they were not based upon lumped LC parameters but used a delay line to harvest and magnify the output energies. Therefore each current pulse is added to the last. The amplification takes place when the next pulse is applied before the ringing of the last pulse ahs died out - the faster the better (at least according the Dr. Tesla).

Spokane1

gyulasun

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2008, 11:30:57 PM »
Dear Marco,

I would love to upload this collection of new vintage photos. But the smallest one is 6 MB. I had Kinkos scan the original slides and photos at 2400 dpi and thus the large file sizes. (some are 75 MB)

Hi,  maybe you could consider using free file upload services like megaupload.com or rapidshare.com  etc? 

Thanks,  Gyula

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 12:55:23 AM »
Dear Gyula,

Nice idea if I were not so far in the tooly-weeds with a phone connection that runs at about 2KB/sec even with msn.com compression assistance. I would have to be on line all evening to upload one file. Needless to say I'm unable to receive YouTube clips as well.

At work almost everything is blocked and processing large files is frowned upon, even after hours. This new photo collection is on 7 CD's. I think I can get it all on to one DVD.

But, don't worry I fully intend to make these available in file sizes that we all can work with. I just don't have the program to do it right now or I would be sending them out already. There are just a few details in these photos that really need all this high resolution - like the labels on the control panel of the EMA4-E2 and the exact number of turns in the Floating Flux Field (FFF) component. Also there are a number of photos that are not worth passing on but some are real technical gems (to me anyway).

They were all acquired from an early investor who wishes to be only known as GD. He was involved in the E.V. Gray saga from 1974 to late 1976. He claims to have had a close relationship with Richard Hackenburger. GD also has a collection of about 30 audio tapes of meetings and phone conversations with Mr. Hackenburger. So far I have had the opportunity to listen to about a third of this material. Several of the cassette tapes became unglued and are in need of repair. The content is 99% business related since GD had a letter of intent that allowed him to seek venture capital for a commission. But there are a few interesting technical comments that I intend to write up for this community. Several of the new points were commented on in the last post.

For example, GD and Hackenburger were discussing the manufacturing costs of making the "ElectroStatic Generator" (This was Richard's favorite device). GD said that his potential investors were worried about the cost of the custom made transformer that was part of the "Blue Box". Richard responded that the transformer was indeed special, but it was nothing that a transformer winding shop couldn't produce for a 10% premium. - So I wonder, just what can be done to a power transformer that would only add 10% to its manufacture and would still be considered a novel feature? From other historical research I suspect that this was a current limited design that employed a small air gap or magnetic shunt for magnetic leakage.

I know from previous research that E.V.Gray (or Marvin Cole) was having the Mallory Electric Company (not P.M. Mallory that makes the Blue Capacitors)  build these custom ignition coils. The Mallory company was involved with Gray at least as early as 1970 as observed in the GD documents.

Pardon me for rambling on so long about this subject, but it has been a long time since we have had any new material to work with.

Spokane1

fletchdaf

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 03:49:23 AM »

Here is a new photo of the EMA6 from 1/9/76 Stockholders Meeting to add to your collections...
If anyone had any idea of the principles of the Marvin Cole technology it was Richard - certainly not Gray.

Spokane1

There's only one person I know who has this level of detailed knowledge on the EVGray technology and company.  "MkMc".  How are you, my friend?

Dennis F, Calgary Canada.

ourbobby

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 03:55:33 AM »
Hi  Spokane1,  you couldls try opening the images in windows Paint program and then save them as jpeg. You should get the option of the resize parameters. Just a thought for all us EVGray afficionados!

thanks

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 04:09:36 AM »
Dear Dennis,

I'm doing just fine and even more so after this last interview trip. It is certainly refreshing to find a person who was involved in this story that can still remember some facts. Unfortunatly GD has no technical information to share. Never the less I'm finding a great value in what he has offered. GD is the source of the original "Investor Photos" that Peter Lindemann and John Bedini received in Post Falls, ID about 3-4 years ago. At the time GD wanted to remain annomonus. But, now he wishes that all of what he knows is made avaliable to serious researchers. The photos are probably his most valuable asset. He still wishes to be known as GD. He hopes that something can become of this lost technology that he devoted several years to.

Send me an email at work and I'll send you my usual rambling monographs and drawings on this subject that keep changing with the times.

For the last few months I have been exploring Water Arcs, Tesla Velocity Transformers, and learning how to use a freeware Finite Element Magnetic Modeling (FEMM) program.

After this load of material I might find a new direction to keep me busy this winter.

Spokane 1

pomodoro

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2008, 04:03:54 AM »
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/264/koneheadgray3ft0.jpg)

The above image is what John Bedini reckons Ed's setup looks like. Look at the diode going from the battery to the tube. How will the current ever flow from the +3000V caps trough the tube with the diode blocking the flow? Surely Bedini would not make such a simple mistake?  What do you guys reckon?

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2008, 04:24:06 AM »
Dear Promodoro,

According to John Bedini (he lives about 25 miles from here) that historical sketch was drawn by Ron Cole in 1973 (No relation to Marvin Cole) after he and John had visited E.V. Gray's shop in Van Nuys. The date on the sketch is when John redrew it. According to John, Ron was attempting to figure out how this system opered and was exploring a thought (while driving) about some kind of Zener avalanche negative resistance process that Ron was familur with from his extensive experiance in exotic solid state systems - some of them classified grovenment projects. The diode acually goes the opposite way. Check the polarity of the "triode" in the CSET patent and then check Gary Magratten's early work. I don't know about you but I have a pile of diodes in my "Hall of Flame" that attest to this little error.

Apparently the PIV of the diode you use doesn't need to be high. Gary used a 600V 60A model and he was able to get some ananomolus sparks (about 2" long which is about 80KV worth) flying off his CSET right through the plexiglas enclosure. Now regular arcs don't do that. So I think he was on to something with a forward biased diode. At least that is how I'm using it my systems from now on.

A very good question.

Spokane1

Stay tuned I have a coupule of new photos to up load this evening

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2008, 05:00:28 AM »
Dear Loyal and Information Hungry E.V.Gray Researchers

GD Materials Installment #1    8-19-08

Here is a photo of the front side of the EMA6 as it was presented at the stockholders meeting 1/9/76. This photo seems to have been preprocessed as if it were cut from a larger photo and then pasted on a new background. Never the less there is some interesting things to observe here. It is my belief that this motor was the technical efforts of Richard Hackenburger as he attempted to improve upon the principles he saw operating in the EMA4-E2 Cole motor. The original resolution was 600 dpi.

1. I'm pretty sure the size of the motor cylinder is 12" ID by 16" long. There was an attempt to make the newer model smaller. I believe the size of the older EMA4-E2 was 16" ID x 24" long. I know that the white panels on the three power supplies are standard 19" rack panels. I think these power supplies were custom built for Gray by a company in 1000 Oaks, CA (at least that is where he got his diodes).

2. Notice there doesn't appear to be a starting motor on this model nor an air pump. There is a good chance that this model could start from 0 rpm, unlike the EMA4-E2 that needed to be brought up to 500 rpm first.

3. Notice the 6" muffin fans on each power supply. They may have been working with "Cold Electricity" but obviously these reported cooling effects didn't take place in the power supply. This suggests that perhaps the non-classical process took place in the motor and not in these particular power supplies- this is just.
a thought.

4. The second photo is my attempt of providing a close up using Photo Shop Ver. 5. The detail is not as good as I would like it to be. Notice the black dots around the end of the white nylon cylinder.  There are 9 clusters of 3 each. This same contact arrangement is to be found in the EMA4 and the EMA5 prototype motors owned by Al Francouer in Yack, BC (about 120 miles north of here). If you study the Pulse motor patent 3,890,548 you will also see this same pattern (I recommend disregarding the text). The center contact is about three times wider than the two smaller outer ones. It appears (according to my research so far) this one fires the "Major Pole" while the small one do something after the "Major Pole" has been fired. All three contacts don't operate at once. First the center contact is closed then on another swipe the two smaller contacts are made active. This is achieved with two internal slip rings. I'm still working on what this could possibly do inside the motor.

5. Notice no control panel, only a very large knife switch and a large rotary dial (assume for speed control) that selected different voltages from the battery pack.

6. No outboard generator to top off the batteries. This motor was far from being ready for production but it was the best Richard could do with the circumstance's and funding available.

7. This view still doesn't give a good perspective of the CSET's

Spokane1

pomodoro

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2008, 05:19:23 AM »
Thanks Spokane1!

Fellow researches, I was looking at the patent and something about Ed's tube makes little sense. The grid only surrounds the long, high voltage anode and is not surrounding the spark.  All I have read about radiant energy is that it is generated at the arc and radiates out.  But Ed seemed to not care about the arc zone one bit - assuming the patent is realistic.
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6303/zpegraypower01bp0.gif)

Spokane1

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2008, 06:14:30 AM »
Dear pomodoro,

You are correct on that issue. Consider the source of your reading. The idea that RE is radiated out in all direction from the arc has its beginnings with Dr. Tesla in an article he wrote in 1892 in the "Electrical Experimenter". Researchers have expanded upon this idea - most notably being Tom Bearden and Jerry Vassilatos.

But let us consider the facts.

There are only two (2) models of E.V.Gray CSET tubes in existence that have been photographed. The first one shows up on the EMA6 and the remaining one in the 1986 promotion video.

The first ones seemed to have worked (marginally at a mere 2HP out). OK, assume they were having a bad day. These only working devices look a heck of a lot different than what the drawing shows in the patent. The outer copper (it looks copper) ring is about 2" thick and 4" in diameter. There appear to be 3 inner "grids" as well - all seem to be copper water pipe. Also there doesn't seem to be any holes in these "grids". The center electrode appears to be about 1" in diameter and is at least 4" long. This layout, of the only know working CSET, is a far cry from what the patent shows. - So go figure (I have for a long time)

Also, the enclosure is standard Plexiglas. I doubt if it could hold a partial vacuum or very much pressure. I think it was operating at one atmosphere (standard outside air pressure).


Folks, It is my learned opinion that the devices shown in the EMA6 series of photos are Trigger gaps used to start a higher current arc somewhere else (motor or power supply). E.V.Gray would not display the heart of his technology (actually Marvin Cole's) in see-thru boxes at a media event. They sure look neat, but I say these units are functional eye candy only - the real magic is else where.

That means if the CSET is a valid component then the real ones were hidden in the power supplies - and who knows what they looked like or how they were built. One report claims that E.V. Gray kept his real glass CSET's in a locked brief case and took them home with him every evening. He was also said to be armed. However, I haven't heard the same information from any of my interview contacts. It's a good story though.

Even if the CSET's are for real Gray didn't know how to build them. He spent a decade scratching for a living (1979-1989). If he could built just one functional demonstration device (that wasn't bogus) his financial problems would have been over with. It appears that he wasn't up to the task.

The CSET built in 1986 and shown in the Promotion Clips was never connected to do any work. 5KV was pulsed through it for show but that's all. The glass enclosure was from a Coleman outdoor lamp. The custom end blocks were machined in Bosie, ID

Check the Phinny patent 3,619,638 if you want to get an idea as to what I think the devices shown with the EMA6 are really for - but this is just my opinion.

Attached is a photo of the bogus CSET built by E.V. Gray  in 1986 in case you don't have one. The label is 1/2" wide for size comparision.

Spokane1

Thaelin

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Re: Eds design
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2008, 07:05:06 AM »
Hi Spokane:
   The more I look at these tubes, the more I see a triggered spark gap. Over and over this keeps
coming up in my thoughts. In the end, I saw recently posted that the "FCC" raided his shop and
took what was left due to radio interference. A spark gap would damn sure cause lots of it. Just have
to put it in a cage and shield it. The way these tubes are layed out would seem as the high current
switching device for the coils with recapture on the other side.
   Too bad a photo flash tube cant handle the umph

thaelin