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Author Topic: Joule Motor  (Read 56023 times)

Offline Lynxsteam

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Joule Motor
« on: July 23, 2012, 05:54:57 AM »
The Lynx Joule Motor/Generator is designed to run, do work, put out more voltage than it consumes, and be able to charge back to its own battery.  (It doesn't create free energy)  I have just started experimenting with this circuit, and am finding some interesting things that it does.
Timing is a whole area to explore.  I am sure as I play with this I will get the thumping sound out of it.  Right now the bearings are wood which wont last long.
I toyed with not using a commutator to switch on the transistor.  I tried LED to LED reciever and a LED to LDR.  They both sort of worked but would have needed to be amplified and they consume 40-50 ma.  Both light sensor circuits barely turned on the transistor.

The Joule Motor concept is similar to a Joule Thief in that it utilizes the flyback to do something useful.  In this case a second coil is given a burst of energy right near BDC.  On the second half of the rotation the magnets spin past the coils inducing a current.  This motor will generate disconnected and just had turned.  I haven't even figured out what the timing of the voltages and currents are in relation to the power pulses.

Unfortunately this isn't a super easy thing to make.  But you can pretty much see the basics.  Getting a commutator and brushes right was the most time consuming part.  By now you have figured out I like aircore coils.  There is no cogging in alternators and motors, and no losses to heat in the iron core.  There is no reason this wouldn't work even better with Neo magnets.  Neos are self defeating with a Bedini motor , but with this motor it would be a benefit.

I don't expect anyone to rush out and replicate this.  I would like your thoughts on what the interaction between the power cycle and generator cycle might be, and how it could be optimized. 

My thinking has been that if Over Unity is possible it will need to come from a borrowed external source of energy into the system.  That is one reason why I have been playing with Joule Thief circuits, Magnets, Bedini Motors, and now this Lynx Joule Motor/Generator.  This is the first DC motor I have seen that puts out more voltage than it takes for a given rpm.  Classic Joule Thief stuff that keeps us interested.

I will upload a video tonight.  http://youtu.be/1gWZchP8-Hk
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 12:52:14 PM by Lynxsteam »

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Joule Motor
« on: July 23, 2012, 05:54:57 AM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 10:55:27 AM »
Quote
This is the first DC motor I have seen that puts out more voltage than it takes for a given rpm.

How are you measuring? Do you use an oscilloscope?

You can make excellent self-lubricating wooden bearings out of a wood known as "lignum vitae" which you can sometimes find as scraps in hardwood lumber stores (flooring, etc.) It's so dense that it doesn't even float in water.

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 02:36:04 PM »
Nice work.
This reminds me of the window motor from a few years back.


But this needs to put out more average voltage and current than it uses to be useful.


Do you see an increase in battery terminal voltage?
Can it be run for a long duration?  If so you could check the capacity of the 9v battery with a battery analyser.
example: Ripmax Peak Prodigy pro.


Some small non-sealed ceramic bearings would help, the type used in RC models for the gearboxes/bel housing.
5x10x4
Also, switching could be done using a microcontroller and you would measure the back emf from the second coil to determine rotor position.


Cheers
Rob


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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 02:36:04 PM »
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Offline Lynxsteam

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 05:37:48 PM »
Team,

No! drive battery voltage does not increase as the motor runs, nor does output amperage exceed input.  I know with some fine tuning the timing can be optimized.  The nice thing, compared to the Bedini motor/charger, is that with load the power doesn't drop, meaning this motor has torque to do work and still the output voltage remains higher than input.  It will run for quite a while on the 9 volt, but I haven't been scientific.

I don't have an oscilloscope.  I can pretty much guess what is happening and I can hear it.  The only thing I haven't studied very well, is what is taking place on a coil leg that is being fluxed by a passing magnet while the coil is energized.  Is the induced voltage additive or subtractive? 

The generated output is there even without the AC through the rectifier.  So evidently the zener diode is allowing positive current to flow back through the coils to the battery positive.

I ordered some axially magnetized Neo magnets which will allow me to bring the coils very close.  The cylinder shaped magnets have a 1/4" ID hole that I can use for a shaft and then use proper bearings.  The commutator will be a brass eccentric (adjustable).  The brush will be a single spring steel wire (adjustable dwell angle) and the shaft will complete the circuit for triggering the transistor.

I will just take this as far as it goes and see if the motor can be made to be hyper efficient.  Its kind of silly to take 9-12 volts and charge a 9-12 volt battery.  But if ever there was a way to get close to Unity this is the route I would take.  Borrowing some energy from a magnet.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 08:06:14 PM »
Reed switches, mechanical commutators... will cause problems sooner or later. Some people believe that the noise and jitter of mechanical switching systems is necessary for the effect they are seeking. I don't. Mechanical systems will always freeze up, short out, become unreliable and noisy. There is an incredible amount of engineering effort in the mechanical commutation of a simple DC hobby motor, for example, and they still wear out and need capacitors to lessen wear-increasing arcing at the commutator.

You can trigger your 3055 with an inductive pickup coil wound into your motor coils, or next to them, or, my preferred method, a good Hall effect sensor switch that gives a clean sharp TTL pulse transition for its output. You can get these from Allegro Microsystems (digikey) for a couple of dollars and they are well worth it, for the trouble they eliminate when used right. A simple mounting arrangement and you have full control of timing and dwell, without the jitter, unreliability and lack of repeatability of an improvised mechanical commutation system.

However, if you feel that the mechanical system is necessary for your desired effect, a good reed switch, properly protected from arcing, placed in the right spot, will fire your transistor and will be better than a brush-commutator system or a cam-interrupt system.

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 08:06:14 PM »
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Offline Lynxsteam

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 08:51:04 PM »
A mechanical means of activating the transistor was my last choice.  Since this was a weekend project and using scraps I was limited.  Also, I didn't know exactly what the timing needed to be.

I am not sure a trigger coil within the main coil will be precise enough.  The transistor needs to switch on and off at a precise point in rotation.
Also there is a lot of stray magnetism so my efforts with a magnetic pickup were foiled.

The main coil needs to fire just after TDC and can remain on or be pulsed for part or most of the rest of the rotation to BDC.  The timing of turning off the transistor dictates when the flyback will occur. The flyback coil can be timed as an attraction force just before BDC, or a repelling force just after BDC.  This is responsible for the "sound" you hear in the video.  The flyback is like a kick.

Now, this is the part I haven't studied enough:  When the flyback coil fires current will flow in the coil.  At that very moment the magnets are inducing a current to flow in both coils.  It would be best that this flyback current direction is the same as the induced current.  Since we can orient and time the flyback either way we should pick the best setup.

I am only so good with the left hand rule.  And since this is an aircore the coil legs are fluxed as the magnet passes the leg, not the center.  So actually there are eight AC generator pulses per rotation if it isn't being powered by DC.  When powered there are maybe only 7 AC generated pulses.

Offline NerzhDishual

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 12:45:43 AM »
Hi Lynxsteam and  Ou dot Com People,

I agree with MeggerMan: this looks like a Bedini/Cole Window motor.
This 'Lynx Joule Motor' sounds like a simplified one.

BTW: IMO, simplifying thing is more complicated that making it more complex as
it needs more creativity. Is it not?
I would bet that, with some modifications, this 'Lynx Joule Motor' might be able to
run on cap only...
 
--------------------------
About the Window motor:
A guy named 'Mike' had build such a modified motor and claimed to run it on capacitor only.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Modified_Bedini_Cole_Window_Motor

I replicated this device as accurately as possible.
I even used this 'Crouzet Relay'.
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Crouzet-Relay.jpg
This motor has a bifilar coil and another 'monofilar' one:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/L1-L2_L3_Coils.jpg

It worked very well but with a battery!
Anyway, while 'chopping' this battery with a Reed Relay I was able to
run my motor without (apparently depleting the battery) and this
without any 'intentional' circuitry.... Go figure... :o
 
You might consult my very shambolic web folder:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/

At this time, my "'replicative' motivations" were huge.
Now, I'm a little bit  fed up. :-[

Very Best from Brest,
Yann

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 12:45:43 AM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 12:51:57 AM »
Lynxsteam: 
Quote
I will just take this as far as it goes and see if the motor can be made to be hyper efficient.  Its kind of silly to take 9-12 volts and charge a 9-12 volt battery.  But if ever there was a way to get close to Unity this is the route I would take. 

Good for you, Lynx!  You're off to a great start IMO.   I'd like to see where you take this.  Thanks for the clear and interesting videos.

The non-symmetrical motor and the Bedini motors have renewed interest lately.  Perhaps a bit of a horse race?  we'll see.  I'm pulling for ya, Lynx.

Offline NickZ

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 04:50:55 AM »
  LynxSteam:
  Thanks for showing us your new motor set up.
 
  I have a question about the idea of running the "no transistor" circuit using just plain leds, not the 12v or the 110v store bought bulbs ones. Just the common everyday smaller 3.6v leds, mounting many of them in series using 12v with your inverter type of coil set up, but using NO transistor. Do you think that it can be made to work like a 12v Jtc, but without the transistor. Would it work that way to light many leds? I know that transistors are cheap, but, IF it can be made work without them, that would be interesting also, and easier to build.

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 04:50:55 AM »
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Offline Lynxsteam

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM »
The window motor is a lot like the Bedini ssg.  Except it has an additional generator coil.  It can be a two pole rotor or multi pole rotor.  It has a very short pulse duration triggered by a separate coil as a magnet passes.  I like it because it is not steel cored.
I looked up the asymmetrical UFO motor design and it is very intriguing, but very much like a typical wound steel cored motor.  I am not clear on the "witch" and the unidirectional flow of DC.  It sounds right, but I am not sure electrons care which way they go.
Perhaps a fault with the design I am proposing is the long duration "on" time of the power coil.  The other fault is the need for some type of trigger, commutator or switch to turn on the transistor.
There really is no need to make an expensive clunky motor unless it is remarkable in some way.  That's what I am exploring.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 06:53:00 AM »
Hall effect sensor commutation, then, will be the most precise and adjustable method. You just need to find the right place for the Hall sensor, and perhaps use a Schmitt trigger stage or CMOS inverter to square up the drive pulse. The Hall sensor can be used to fire a monostable 555 timer to give pulse width control. So you vary the sensor position for timing and the pulse width for dwell, or just use the edge of the Hall pulse to trigger the 3055.

Most of what's shown here may not be relevant to your project; I just wanted to show the use of the Hall sensor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90rMGmskqXQ



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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 06:53:00 AM »
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Offline Lynxsteam

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 07:57:13 PM »
Thank you TinselKoala,

I will try a more sophisticated triggering on the next build.  This weekend I will work on a machined version with much closer coil to magnet arrangement and strong cylindrical Neo magnets on a stainless shaft in proper bearings.

Here is what I think the cycle looks like through 225 degrees rotation.  Hopefully you will see any mistakes in current flow direction.  It is very confusing in 3D.  I don't remember where I tapped the AC.  This diagram reveals that it makes a difference.  I know that the motor runs faster with the generated voltage feedback.



Offline wings

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 09:20:55 PM »
solution without connector ?

coreless, brushless, sensorless, controllerless DC pulse motor based on transistor oscillation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vOviGW3gFo&feature=plcp

Offline synchro1

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 04:39:43 AM »
Very nice use for the Zener Diode.

Offline Lynxsteam

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Re: Joule Motor
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 02:37:43 PM »
Very impressive video.  That type of motor works well and is related to the Bedini SSG and Window type motors.  Any time you trigger the transistor with the stator coil you get a quick pulse of voltage to the drive coil.  The faster it runs the more power you use.  These types of motors aren't very torquey, so while they go around you can't drive much with them. 

I am trying to do something a little different.  I want to power the drive coil for a certain amount of the rotation, use the flyback, and then see if some of the induction that would normally occur can be used to amplify the voltage.  In order to do this the induced voltage and the spike have to be in phase.  Also I am hoping I can use the induced voltage run back through to help speed the rotation.  It is probably another goose chase.  But so far the results have been interesting enough and surprising enough to keep me going.

DC positive stays positive until it passes back to the battery and across the plates.  It can be on its way to the negative side and still do work.  There are two sources for current: 1.  The battery and 2. the induced current from magnets passing the coils.  It takes work to move magnets past coils and the power out is always less than the power in.  But at least I am able to get higher voltage out than in, and I can back charge the drive battery.  Now if I can demonstrate this motor is efficient that would be an accomplishment.

 

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