Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

OverUnity Prize => Devices applied for the OU prize => Topic started by: Jack Noskills on July 03, 2012, 02:01:10 PM

Title: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 03, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
I posted info below at energeticforum in DS thread, but might as well create a new thread here. If anyone can do replications, simulations or make this a self runner then I hope you would tell about it in this thread.
 
I played with two 1:1 trafos a bit and I was able to connect them so that I can get more power out than it consumes. I used small laminated iron trafos whose output was rated at 20 watts. I get maybe about 30-35 watts out, primary uses less than 6 watts. Exact COP is not important as this is low power, but how to get this result should be usefull information. If you have two 1:1 trafos you can easily verify this.
 
Now look at the picture, the second trafo is connected so that as current in one coil goes from left to right, it creates current in the second coil from right to left. Then I feed both currents to load from the same side. When load is connected current on primary side rises for a moment and then it returns back to same level as before. Now the fun starts if this second trafo is more powerfull than the first trafo, it starts pushing power back. I had nanoperm core which I tried, not powerfull enough but the idle current in primary went down a bit when power was taken. Thus COP was increased even more.

I also tried series caps between load and trafos, and they further increased output while input went down. I ended up in a situation where 25 watt bulb on the primary side did not even glow while output was about 30-35 watts. After enough series caps primary side started to consume more so I quess I was sort of tuning it.
 
The first trafo has high self inductance (coil resistance 165 ohms), meaning that when it is connected to mains without load only little current goes through. This high self inductance is essential to get OU effect. I smashed some chinese made christmas light trafos and took four primaries from there and made 1:1 trafos from them. My 1:1 version was not perfect so it had a bit more this leakage current than the real one. This I was able to reduce with series caps but I think that caps would not have been needed if I could have made just little tighter package. At one instance I squeezed the first isolation trafo so that its self inductance increased, power at this trafo went down while output power increased.
 
If someone has scope, then it would be usefull to check out what exactly happens if you replicate this. Maybe even a simulator could show this effect as there are no spark gaps involved.
 
Has anyone seen this before ? If not, then I have a name for it: TrollBuster, lol.
Not sure if this is good enough for OU prize but might as well try.
 
I like this circuit because you can go and buy best of the best 1:1 isolation transformers you can find and connect them as shown. You will then get all the power one transformer can give but you don't use grid power, you create your own power when you use it. This is what Tesla said, energy creation by energy consumption.
 
I could wish you good luck when replicating, but I don't because luck is not needed. You can make only one mistake, you connect the second trafo in wrong way. If so, then you got no power at output but primary uses all. Just reverse the wires to fix it.
 
So here you have it.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: broli on July 03, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
Without an oscilloscope I wouldn't even dare to make such a post to be honest. Using a DSO you can extract the voltage/current measurement and do a mean calculation on the product of the two, which gives you the real average power.
Guesstimating with light bulbs is prone to very biased results.

I don't have any isolation transformers laying around to be honest to check this out but I'm sure plenty of people do have.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 03, 2012, 03:29:12 PM
Dont have any fancy stuff around, thats one reason I posted so others could check it out. I try to explain my crude measurement.
 
First just one trafo, I put hot line on primary side through a 40 watt light bulb so I can see what is consumed.
No load connected, light on primary side is dimm, hardly visible. If I could have squeezed in more iron it would be off.
Then I put 40 watt on secondary side as load. Light on primary side goes to full brightness, and secondary side has little less light. This is normal trafo operation.
Is this correct/false way to measure ?
 
Then I connect second trafo as shown in the picture.
No load, light on primary side about the same level so it works in the same way as normal trafo which is good.
40 watt bulb as load, light on primary side blinks and then it returns to level it was. Light on secondary side is lit, not as bright but maybe 30-35 watts.
 
Caps are not needed, I just tested them for any effect. I wanted to mention about them as they helped. Use of nanoperm core with different coil as the second trafo resulted in this idle current to go down even more. The second trafo must be strong enough so it can create the power.
 
I cannot do power measurements, I busted my meter while ago, hence explanation with light bulbs. Hope you could follow my explanation. You can use whatever trafo you can find, only requirement is high self inductance.
 
My view is that first trafo gives one push, and then it gets two pushes back one of which is in the same phase/opposite compared to first one. Scope shots could explain, but don't have scope.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: FatBird on July 03, 2012, 06:20:37 PM
Sounds Interesting.
 
Please post a picture of your setup.
 
Thank you.
 
.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 03, 2012, 07:32:49 PM
Hi, Jack --
This is "PhysicsProf" from EF.    I'd like to give this a try.  It may take a little while as I need to get the 1:1 trafos.

 I have a couple of oscilloscopes, watt-meters, etc. which might prove helpful in this study.
 Thanks for posting, Jack.

(PS -- I'm pulling for you to get the prize(s)!)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 03, 2012, 07:52:06 PM
Wow,  Sounds very interesting.  I've had a fascination for some time with the idea that simply some coils and transformers might be able to do something OU.  I am thinking this also fits in with some info I got from William Lyne in his book Occult Ether Physics or his other book.  I've got scopes (one digital) and a watt meter but not sure about 1:1 trafo's. 
   Looking forward to where this goes and will try to dig up or make some 1:1's.  I know Jack Noskills has a lot more talent than his name would suggest  ;)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 03, 2012, 08:01:33 PM
BTW what is you name over at Energeticforum or what is the name of the message thread there?  Oops I see now you said the DS thread (Don Smith thread).
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: mscoffman on July 03, 2012, 09:00:35 PM
Hi,
 
Not taking sides here. But you can synthesize a 1:1 transformer if you have several
(4) identical step down transformers and place them back to back conecting the LV
secondaries. For example if you have two identical utility-voltage to 12VAC step down
transformers you can make them into one 1:1 utility-voltage transformer by connecting
the 12VAC windings to each other. I do this when I need a ground isolated utility voltage
in the US and don't have a spare 1:1. Can't see why this wouldn't work in this situation.
Note the "WVA power" rating of the transformers because high LV currents can cause
winding heating.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 03, 2012, 11:46:58 PM
Hey Jack

Are you sure of the circuit connections in the drawing?  I ran it on Falstad sim. The way you have it, Im getting little output as the load is across the transformer winding and the winding doesnt seem to want to give up anything to the resistor/load.

I tried switching the connections of one of the windings on the second transformer. and now there is output, but is is somewhat under the input.

Maybe Im missing something.  Im interested though.  ;]

Mags
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 04, 2012, 12:17:08 AM
I posted info below at energeticforum in DS thread, but might as well create a new thread here. If anyone can do replications, simulations or make this a self runner then I hope you would tell about it in this thread.
 
I played with two 1:1 trafos a bit and I was able to connect them so that I can get more power out than it consumes. I used small laminated iron trafos whose output was rated at 20 watts. I get maybe about 30-35 watts out, primary uses less than 6 watts. Exact COP is not important as this is low power, but how to get this result should be usefull information. If you have two 1:1 trafos you can easily verify this.
 ...

So here you have it.


Lets be serious. What is supposed those 2 transformers to be? A normal one connected to mains (standard little input while idling and when working some 80-90% eff.) and a second one @ 1:1 ratio wired ala bucking (Series canceling is that right?) configuration. and in parallel to second wiring the load... nothing near OU can be expected from that.


 And please, dont mention Tesla's name just to give credibility to your claims.
If
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lynxsteam on July 04, 2012, 01:48:01 AM
I'll give it a try.  I have two identical Torroids with isolated 1:1 windings.  I have a single phase alternator that puts out a nice sine wave.  I will use a 1 watt bulb as a load, and see what happens.  I am optimistically skeptical. :)

Update:  I spent a little time with it and it definitely performs like a joule thief.  Not with AC, but if you pulse the DC, it puts out enough power to do more than the DC alone.  The flyback will light an LED whereas the 1 volt DC alone can't.  With AC, there's no sudden collapse of the field.   I can see where the spikes could add.  I'll fool with it some more.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 04, 2012, 12:14:37 PM
I did some more testing and I think I see what is happening. I try to explain.
 
I removed first trafo and connected directly to mains via 1 uf cap so it acts as current limiter.
For comparison test I put two lamps is series after cap and both lit at the same brightness, hardly visible. Earlier I have measured that I get about 80 mA via 1 uf cap.
 
Then I added second trafo as shown in figure, in this case bulb B is brighly lit while bulb A has no light. When I disconnect bulb B, I get flash of light in bulb A. So beware if you want to use signal generator directly as it shoots back. With two trafos I got flash at bulb A when load is connected so it is safer.
 
Next I added more caps, 7 uf so they should give 560 mA. Bulb B lights a bit more, bulb A still no light. Then I put more load at B and now I see bulb A getting lit.
 
My interpretation is that when load exceeds what core can produce only then it starts to suck more from the caps.
 
It is important to get the first trafo to operate in a sweet spot. The coil I used had very thin wire, must be over 10000 turns. If someone tests with some other trafo you can test it easily if it is suitable. Connect it to source without load, there should be very little idle current.
 
If you have ferrite and idle current is too high, then put parallel cap at source so you get tank circuit. Then exactly the same kind of trafo on output side and put same valued cap in series, like in the figure shown. Now find the sweet spot where current drops closest to zero on first trafo. When you see it, connect some load, what is the result ?
 
This should be a resonant trafo, I haven't tested this so it is merely a suggestion. I would try it if I had equipment.
I have only tested with pure sine wave, as that is what comes from the mains. No idea what happens with other waveforms.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: newton2 on July 04, 2012, 12:55:52 PM
HI , my kind greetings to honoured profiles of this ouforum....and thanks for this interesting suggestion for further discussing basics for OU made by mutual inductances....and by reactive networks..the hitherto in this newly thread of topic and answering comments though still is in the socalled state of prestudy and prestudying discussions circumstances...might it kindly be hinted, that if arranging surden researching concepts and if keeping experimental layout to a few electrotechnical reactive components,
then it is by established physics and technics possible to obtain OU...if named energy-generation though , then the circumstance of whether the term energy is auto-consistent in nature...or possible more aike a supporting-tern of conveniences in established elder physics...by solely own researches once upon years back was proven and demonstrated an OU-device capable by such electrotechnics reactive components layout...it is possible to calculate this interesting thread´s electro-technical foundation...yes,tricky if when more than one inductances-mutuality appear in a common circuit..the transfer by mutuality-coupling and alterations of impedances if when applying a "load" or removing a "load"....might it kindly be refered to elder book-paper-versions of elder, especially the elder versions , of electro-technics theses and formulas of mutuality-reactive-connectios......THANKS INDEED FOR SUCH IMPORTANT BASICAL DISCUSSING...really thanks to thread´s author plus answering authors.....have all Yourselves a nice day and fruitfull results from Yout various hardlabored deeds and workings concerning the honourable goal of OU....p.s.as a mere brief hint : profile zweiternewton in the other ou-forum/my profile zweiternewton/ouforum.de/OU bei Reaktanznetzwerk...   
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 04, 2012, 01:23:10 PM

This should be a resonant trafo, I haven't tested this so it is merely a suggestion. I would try it if I had equipment.
I have only tested with pure sine wave, as that is what comes from the mains. No idea what happens with other waveforms.

If to push this even further, can you adjust resonant drequency of second trafo to frequency of AC source? Also if you have step up+step down trafos, you need spark gap between them so the losses of step down transformer would be compensated with power coming from step up transformer on oscilation peaks.
The missing link here is exactly this: you need resonant LC oscilations on output transformer for maximum output. This can be found in various circuits including N. Tesla and Don Smith.

If you will play with it, here is my modded circuit to start with:
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 04, 2012, 03:18:43 PM
Hey Jack

Are you sure of the circuit connections in the drawing?  I ran it on Falstad sim. The way you have it, Im getting little output as the load is across the transformer winding and the winding doesnt seem to want to give up anything to the resistor/load.

I tried switching the connections of one of the windings on the second transformer. and now there is output, but is is somewhat under the input.

Maybe Im missing something.  Im interested though.  ;]

Mags

Seems that simulation and real world do not match.
Resistance of 40 watt bulb is 1215 ohms (220 V grid). When current comes to upper junction from left, it wants to go through higher resistance bulb rather than against current that comes from the second coil, which the first coil created. Resistance of second coil was 165 ohms for iron trafo and about 45 ohms with nanoperm.

When current comes below bulb, it wants to go through lower coil as it has lower resistance than bulb. As this creates current in the upper coil current again is forced through bulb in the same way.
 
I you imagine this as water pipes, water does not go upstream if there is even a tiny hole elsewhere.
Is this is what really happens, I don't actually care since it works.
 
The very first picture missed the dot. In the later picture dot is in correct place.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on July 04, 2012, 06:09:42 PM
Jack Noskills:
Just to be clear: Are you saying you wound your isolation transformer with the primary winding clockwise and the secondary anticlockwise?
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 04, 2012, 06:53:00 PM
T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 04, 2012, 07:12:58 PM

Seems that simulation and real world do not match..

Is this is what really happens, I don't actually care since it works.


the problem is, i am afraid,  that it does not.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 05, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer would not fit. It has single winding while it needs to be 2 coils on same core. The setup seems is quite simple from first look: TR1 gives power source and TR2 is connected as resistive load to TR1. But because of oscillation in TR2, it gives induction in its secondary and that increases impedance for TR1 while TR2 is under load...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 05, 2012, 11:47:39 AM
T-1000, I tried parallel caps as you suggested and it helped. Also serial caps worked, right after upper coil before junction. If one would need to stop current flow without high self inductance then parallel tank circuit is the way to go. Earlier I had the opinion that series caps would be best but I take it back.
 
Those two trafos are not magnetically coupled and that is why tank circuits on both sides is the correct way. In Don Smith circuits you have aircored trafo magnetically coupled and there you need parallel tank in primary as to minimise current flow in there and series resonance in secondary as to maximise current flow.
 
In this setup however, you don't need any tuning caps. You minimise current flow by using high self inductance only.
 
a.king, winding direction matters at the secondary side but in case you have it wrong way no worries. If you connect the lower coil in wrong way then you don't get anything at load and all the power is used from the source. In this case power that is created by the first coil goes pass the load. If this occurs, just swap connections in either coil. We need to push from both coils to the middle at the same time. As they can run at full speed there is no delay of action, the source gets the same sinewave what it creates so it does not need to push more to compensate. In normal trafo operation the source always gets delayed version which then allows more current to pass.
 
One test I did was to take power directly from mains via 10 nF cap. I got no light at all. This confirms that we need a push, before we can push back. This pushing back then creates power that can be used. Also the power from the source gets used. Understand that there are three currents running: one current from the source, it goes via upper coil which creates current in lower coil. Lower coil runs and goes through the load, this then induces back EMF in the upper coil which is exactly in phase with source.
 
Same setup should work with higher frequencies so here is a proposal:
Take any ferrite core, wound wire on it until you get self inductance high enough at the frequency you want to use so almost no current flows. On the secondary side of this first trafo you put wire to meet your desired output voltage. For the second trafo, you can use bigger core and again enough wire on it so you get high self inductance at the same frequency. For the secondary side you then put the same amount of wire so it is exactly 1:1. Why bigger ? I noticed with nanoperm secondary that current dropped in the first trafo when load was taken. So stronger second trafo kicked back more towards first, hmm inductive kick anyone ?
If you are lucky enough to have high perm core, then you might find that you cannot get the frequency up as self inductance blocks current flow too soon. To solve this, you can add series cap, or even better try bifilar winding which adds capacitance. The more windings you can use the more flux you will get, of course.
To make a self runner, system needs to push back more and this you get with inductive kickback as I explained. Safety SG will be needed at the source so excess can be dumped. Self runner wont run too far unless there is always some load, so there needs to be a resistor at the load so you get higher kicks back, or a stepdown trafo in case you want to use higher voltage. For stepdown need to watch out so it does not block due to high self inductance, so use thicker wire there. When SG starts to fire at the source you can disconnect it from the starter battery. When you take power, kick back will be stronger and SG fires more often.
Hmm, I wonder if I just described what TK is using ? Did not realize it until I got to end of this thinking.
 
Here is my master plan. Anyone who does the above and makes a working prototype should get the second gold medal from Doc, I get the first one as one memento is quite enough. Your device need to give out more than 35 Watts, because that is what I am getting now. Now you will have your name on it and with help of Mr. Jones we go after bigger prizes. This OU prize here first, developer gets 80 % so he can develop it further: bigger, better, badder, well you get the idea. I might take 20 % to cover my own blown up meters and stuff I have spent for this. For bigger prizes I want equal share, just in case I happen to lose my nice job mysteriously. No greed, just that I got 7 mouths to feed. If someone then improves the prototype significantly then we make 40-40-20 split. This 20 percent will then be splitted again later in case someone makes another significant improvement and so on. Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give. I need no hassles.
 
So boys, guys and fellow Duudson's, the race is on !
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 05, 2012, 12:16:24 PM
T-1000 or anyone with knowledge on this - a question on using a Variac for trying this.  I've got a heavy duty Variac and wonder if that would be like a 1:1 isolation transformer when it is adjusted all the way to full voltage?  In other words 120VAC in and 120VAC out.  I think I also have a second isolation tranformer out of an old power supply.

Beware, if you dont know how trafos are winded you have 50 % chance to guess correct when you connect lower coil in second trafo. If you put it wrong way you will consume all power in your first trafo. Use a light bulb as current limiter at first trafo.
 
Or you can skip the first trafo and use enough caps instead, check the other picture I posted. In this case the first trafo will be in the grid somewhere.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 05, 2012, 01:35:29 PM

the problem is, i am afraid,  that it does not.

You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?
 
If not then this is the way I see things now:
The World championship soccer game is 0-0, we are at the last minute of extra time on second period. This is the game-of-games, bigger than seventh game of Stanley Cup final, bigger than Super Bowl final, the biggest game there can ever be. The final game. You, barotolougos the goal keeper, prepares to block a penalty shot. All full of adrenaline and ready to block, your teammates are counting on you 'He can do it, we trained him extraordinaly well'. Trevor Buster, nick named 'TrollBuster' prepares to shoot. He knows that after this the game is over, there is no time left. Game-of-the-games will be finished after this, no matter what is the result. There is no pressure on his face, he is calm as the ocean, he has never felt as confident as now. What a wonderfull feeling that is. He steps just one step back from the ball as this is all he needs. He kicks the ball gently, as if it was a golf ball on the green right next to hole. Crowd goes mad, is this guy insane ! Loud moaning fills the stadium as 100 thousand people moan together. 500 million people moans together at their TV sets. We cannot win !!!! Ball starts to move, it rolls and rolls on.

It seems to take forever, you can almost taste the suspense. Ball reaches the goal and stops just after the goal line. Why isn't barotolougos the goalkeeper doing anything ? Oh lord he is just waving hands, seems he cannot reach the ball. Referee comes to check if it was a goal. He walks over slowly, looks on top the ball as that is the only way to see it exactly. Trevor is as calm as before, no sign of panic or fear in his face. Barotolougos the goalkeeper is swearing and spitting, why there is blood coming out of his face ? 'NO GOAL, NO GOAL' he screams in high pitch horrofied voice. Referee kneels down to get closer, suspense in unbelievable, Trevor turns around and begins to move towards center, slowly, calmly...

Referee stands up, blows in the whissle and points at the center. GOAAAAL! TrollBuster scored, crowd explodes, people at their homes in front of their TV sets begin to cry. To win the game-of-games all that was need was just one calm brilliant move, they have finally won the game after hundred years of waiting !
 
After game it was time for analysis, what in the world happened ! How barotolougos the goalkeeper could not catch that ball ! Slow motion shows that as the ball comes in he moves, so he must have seen it coming. But wait ! Why barotolougos the goalkeeper is behind the net ? You cannot catch the ball behind the goal, you only get mixed up with the net and hurt yourself. That explains why barotolougos the goalkeeper was bleeding. Now who ordered him there ? Pointing fingers turn to coach at the bench but he is not there anymore. He has left the stadium in a hurry and gone exile at north pole. He will never coach any team ever again. He is now history, forever.
 
This is as much I have to say for any offending posts that are not based on facts, you must be more clever. I hope you have as much fun as I had writing this, but wont respond again to negative opinions. Negative facts are a different story, they move things forward.
 
I will start my summer vacation after tomorrow, three weeks and no access to net. Meanwhile, the ball is now rolling and coming closer to goal...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Paul-R on July 05, 2012, 04:22:23 PM
Could this project be run using a pair of toroids instead of the regualr trandformers?

Paul-R
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 05, 2012, 04:42:17 PM
Well said, Jack.

 
Quote
Here is my master plan. Anyone who does the above and makes a working prototype should get the second gold medal from Doc, I get the first one as one memento is quite enough. Your device need to give out more than 35 Watts, because that is what I am getting now. Now you will have your name on it and with help of Mr. Jones we go after bigger prizes. This OU prize here first, developer gets 80 % so he can develop it further: bigger, better, badder, well you get the idea. I might take 20 % to cover my own blown up meters and stuff I have spent for this. For bigger prizes I want equal share, just in case I happen to lose my nice job mysteriously. No greed, just that I got 7 mouths to feed. If someone then improves the prototype significantly then we make 40-40-20 split. This 20 percent will then be splitted again later in case someone makes another significant improvement and so on. Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give. I need no hassles.

Sounds like a decent plan to me -- as replication is the key to good scientific progress (and to benefit mankind) -- I have three gold "medals" as you call them to go to you and the first two who reproduce and verify your discovery. (Which I personally think is or should be of greater value to mankind than the discovery of the Higg's boson!)

I will also be very happy to test for "strange" emissions from a working model, such as neutrons, gammas, X-rays, etc.   I can do this (and at no charge, of course).

Quote
Then we let anyone do the manufacturing, without anything coming to us unless they want to give...

Distributed manufacturing in several countries like this is a KEY factor in getting this past the censors IMO -- but I suggest you should at least request a 5% royalty-return on profits taken by others; again just a fair return to the inventor.  You may not be able to enforce such a royalty without a patent (attempting that would be a BAD idea IMO), but OTOH honest builders will be glad to pay such a royalty IMHO.

Thanks again for your willingness to share this openly and boldly, Jack N -- and hope you have a restful vacation.   :D
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 05, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer would not fit. It has single winding while it needs to be 2 coils on same core. The setup seems is quite simple from first look: TR1 gives power source and TR2 is connected as resistive load to TR1. But because of oscillation in TR2, it gives induction in its secondary and that increases impedance for TR1 while TR2 is under load...

Thanks T-1000 -- I should have known that if I had even briefly engaged the brain from neutral. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 05, 2012, 07:11:18 PM

You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?
 
If not then this is the way I see things now:
The World championship soccer game is 0-0, we are at the last minute of extra time on second period. This is the game-of-games, bigger than seventh game of Stanley Cup final, bigger than Super Bowl final, the biggest game there can ever be. The final game. You, barotolougos the goal keeper, prepares to block a penalty shot. All full of adrenaline and ready to block, your teammates are counting on you 'He can do it, we trained him extraordinaly well'. Trevor Buster, nick named 'TrollBuster' prepares to shoot. He knows that after this the game is over, there is no time left. Game-of-the-games will be finished after this, no matter what is the result. There is no pressure on his face, he is calm as the ocean, he has never felt as confident as now. What a wonderfull feeling that is. He steps just one step back from the ball as this is all he needs. He kicks the ball gently, as if it was a golf ball on the green right next to hole. Crowd goes mad, is this guy insane ! Loud moaning fills the stadium as 100 thousand people moan together. 500 million people moans together at their TV sets. We cannot win !!!! Ball starts to move, it rolls and rolls on.

It seems to take forever, you can almost taste the suspense. Ball reaches the goal and stops just after the goal line. Why isn't barotolougos the goalkeeper doing anything ? Oh lord he is just waving hands, seems he cannot reach the ball. Referee comes to check if it was a goal. He walks over slowly, looks on top the ball as that is the only way to see it exactly. Trevor is as calm as before, no sign of panic or fear in his face. Barotolougos the goalkeeper is swearing and spitting, why there is blood coming out of his face ? 'NO GOAL, NO GOAL' he screams in high pitch horrofied voice. Referee kneels down to get closer, suspense in unbelievable, Trevor turns around and begins to move towards center, slowly, calmly...

Referee stands up, blows in the whissle and points at the center. GOAAAAL! TrollBuster scored, crowd explodes, people at their homes in front of their TV sets begin to cry. To win the game-of-games all that was need was just one calm brilliant move, they have finally won the game after hundred years of waiting !
 
After game it was time for analysis, what in the world happened ! How barotolougos the goalkeeper could not catch that ball ! Slow motion shows that as the ball comes in he moves, so he must have seen it coming. But wait ! Why barotolougos the goalkeeper is behind the net ? You cannot catch the ball behind the goal, you only get mixed up with the net and hurt yourself. That explains why barotolougos the goalkeeper was bleeding. Now who ordered him there ? Pointing fingers turn to coach at the bench but he is not there anymore. He has left the stadium in a hurry and gone exile at north pole. He will never coach any team ever again. He is now history, forever.
 
This is as much I have to say for any offending posts that are not based on facts, you must be more clever. I hope you have as much fun as I had writing this, but wont respond again to negative opinions. Negative facts are a different story, they move things forward.
 
I will start my summer vacation after tomorrow, three weeks and no access to net. Meanwhile, the ball is now rolling and coming closer to goal...

I've got to say that was an awesome fun read !   If you don't make enough on your concept here you should be able to make it as a creative writer but if this all pans out I think you'll have no financial worries. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 05, 2012, 08:08:04 PM
Any suggestions on likely places to find 1:1 isolation transformers?  I've got hundreds of transformers on hundreds of circuit boards I've pulled out of all sorts of things from computer power supplies to monitors, TV's, printers and all sorts of things I've scrounged over the last few years.   I see some that are probably 1:1 but very unlikely to be high impedance looking at the windings (small number of winds at fairly large gauge). 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 05, 2012, 09:27:20 PM

You did not find anything wrong in my stoneaged testing method ?


I performed a similar test to ur setup.. just to see myself the whatever effect. Indeed at appropriate R (load) hence bulb, then the input current to working trafo is less that the current that the bulb takes. interesting at least! Hmm.. if you measure the currents that each winding has when operating you see that both amount larger than that incoming the load? How is that... interesting...

So, clearly you have vectors in play here. I did a measurement analysis and concluded, that this method although current multiplier resembles short of parallel LC if i may say.
Of course, i did not sticked with high impedances and high voltages as the original suggestion that might alter a bit the setup, but i am pretty confident this is all about.

Care to all experimenters: Input current concerning 2 similar bulbs is not indicating to inputing energy. Thus e.g you can have a 100mA @ 220v (hence 22watts asssuming P.F. 1) input current to working trafo and lamp A not glowing (or a bit) and the second one to be bright outputing all those 22 watts (got the idea?) 

Am i wrong? :D The ball is back to you :D

@e2matrix

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMO-Isolating-Transformer-MTSN-P-25-Pri-230V-Sec-230V-0-11A-I119K-/390414886600?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ae68a66c8#ht_948wt_1163 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMO-Isolating-Transformer-MTSN-P-25-Pri-230V-Sec-230V-0-11A-I119K-/390414886600?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ae68a66c8#ht_948wt_1163)

cheap one to test

ps: i had fun with penalty and stuff description! that is all this forum about :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 05, 2012, 10:25:41 PM
baroutologos,  Glad you took that well and in fun.   Thanks for the tip although I was mostly wondering what the common use is for this type of transformer in hopes that I might already have one.  Also I'd need 120 volt to avoid complicating things as I'm in the land of 120 VAC.  Thanks also for the confirmation that something is indeed interesting here with this easy setup.   

Jacknoskills,  can you comment where you found the transformers for your initial test?  (I see now it was Christmas light transformers ?).
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: AndrejSl on July 06, 2012, 01:05:30 AM
Looks very interesting...

I would like to replicate this, though i don't think i have any 1:1 transformers. Can anyone show me how to connect the two transformers to create a step-up - step-down transformers with a spark gap?

Also, do both 1:1 transformers need the same number of windings to achieve resonance, if not can you calculate the capacitance over T2 to achieve it?

Also forget about simulation to show you the right results, if this is energy from the environment (vacuum) which we don't yet know, then of course it's not going to show in the simulation, as the simulation software is still based on a standard model of electro-magnetism. Actually we can use the simulation to confirm the experiments. If the simulation shows different results, it actually means that there is something wrong with the simulation software or with the standard model of electro-magnetism.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 06, 2012, 01:17:36 AM
Looks very interesting...

I would like to replicate this, though i don't think i have any 1:1 transformers. Can anyone show me how to connect the two transformers to create a step-up - step-down transformers with a spark gap?

Also, do both 1:1 transformers need the same number of windings to achieve resonance, if not can you calculate the capacitance over T2 to achieve it?

The mains power gives 50/60Hz so you have a frequency and you also can measure inductance of your transformer windings. So you can easily calculate capacitance needed for that frequency.

With step-up+step-down transformers it is same setup just with isolation over spark gap. Also you need to fire it only on sine wave peaks and then interrupt discharge as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 06, 2012, 01:38:46 AM
Still interested. ;]

Maybe there are dome elements for transformers in my sim(falstad) like capacitance between primary and secondary, etc. that are not programmed in.

Im going to try a couple home made 1to1 toroid transformers and drive it with an audio amp.

Just to give it a shot.

Hey Jack.  Was this just something you came up with, or have you seen it somewhere?

I have read and found that if an inductor is in series with a load on a secondary, that when you apply the load/inductor to the secondary, the primary idle current will decrease instead of increase. But the output is not greater than the input. One thing is, if the primary is in resonance, applying the load/inductor to the secondary wont kill the resonance. Still working on those things.

But here, you have an inductor on each leg of the secondary of TR1, and the 2 inductors are magnetically in contact with each other. And what ever else might be going on. It seems new and fresh. ;]

Thanks for showing it. ;]   


Mags




Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gsmsslsb on July 06, 2012, 06:09:44 AM

Beware, if you dont know how trafos are winded you have 50 % chance to guess correct when you connect lower coil in second trafo. If you put it wrong way you will consume all power in your first trafo. Use a light bulb as current limiter at first trafo.
 
Or you can skip the first trafo and use enough caps instead, check the other picture I posted. In this case the first trafo will be in the grid somewhere.

Hello Jack
Haveyou tried with one transformer and caps as above and do you still get the same effect. Sorry dumb quetsion I found it now
LV
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 06, 2012, 08:36:05 AM
Earlier I said that when using one transformer connected directly to mains it shooted back when load was disconnected. I played a bit more with the proto yesterday and kick back was gone. Then I realised it was the caps I was experimenting with that were the cause. So it is quite safe to use even one trafo.
 
This means, that any 1:1 isolation transformer can be turned into a OU generator provided that the idle current in normal trafo mode is low enough. The lower this idle current is the more efficient the generator will be. If idle current is too high then you can try to tune it with parallel cap as T-1000 suggested, it worked for me very well even I did not find the exact spot. Just threw in 1 uf caps until light went out. Bare hands on live circuit, what other would you expect from me lol.

My test coils were very fine wire and of small size. Lets say we want to use core that can output 500 watts in normal trafo mode. This means it can put out 500 w + 500 w - coil resistance and it will use only the idle current. The driving coil can still be fine wire, it does not get hot because only idle current goes there. The output coil however does all the work and it will get hot so cannot use fine wire. Thicker wire will need the same amount of turns so trafo could get big. This is not good but we just have to live with it as long as trafo is connected directly to mains. Also, thicker wire will induce more into first coil as resistance in thicker wire is smaller, normal trafo operation, so it starts pushing back. This is ok as long as it does not push it back to grid. We dont want to burn up pole pigs. Pushing back does not occur if coils are similar kind of wire. If you want to seek for resonance, then load should be off while you search for a sweet spot with parallel cap. This is my opinion, untested.
 
Self runner will only make this moveable, smaller thus portable and more powerfull. When frequency can be increased things get better. But this needs development and a developer and it will be the second step.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 06, 2012, 09:40:36 AM
Trafos were made by Chagzou Jutai or something, rated at 20 watts. Smashed four and got the coils from there.

Mags, I found it myself but I am quite sure this is already somewhere in Tesla's patents and if not there then hidden in some underground bunker under US patent office along with the rest 5000+ free energy patents.
 
Barotolougos, welcome to the winning side of team ! Glad I did not offend you. I should have added smoke screen in front of the goal so as not make 500 million people watching it from TV to look stupid.
 
AndrejSL, no spark gaps as it only breaks it. I tried GDT in the load using the basic Tesla circuit, current consumtion increased while no gain at output. Well maybe I did it wrong, but it will be difficult to get it working as sparks introduce asymmetricity while we need perfect symmetry. No SGs means also no emissions, radiation, ozone or any that kind stuff, just plain trafo operation. They cannot put a law against using trafos. We need exactly the same sine wave to go back as we got it from the source. If there is a spark then this correct wave is no more and input starts pushing.
 
Science only have to explain where comes the magnetic field when current goes on in a wire. To my knowledge, they haven't explained and don't think we need to wait for an explanation. This is the only magic at work here. We merely give back exactly the same sinewave in same phase than what came in, then source does not see this difference and things do not change at first trafo, be it in grid or two connected together as I first made it. We will need two trafos only in the self runner.
 
Doc, I have taken patent route couple times in another matters and it was a pain even company I work for got paid hands to do the communication with them. First patent took about 4 years to finish, second is at 10 years now and still counting and it is obsolete now. Besides I don't think this can be patented and even if it could be patented I would not take patent route again. Trying to patent this, I would only end up being bribed, shot or something worse. I am well aware of free energy suppression stories thanks to PJK's web site. If you decide to send me a gold medal, then it would be nice to have it with some sort of nice looking certificate signed by you. I will then put it in a wireframe together with the medal and place it in my bedroom wall. Then I can see it everyday and get good feeling everyday, don't want to stuff it in a box to be forgotten. Gold medal is always a gold medal. Never made into olympics but I think they stuff some other metals in theirs so this will be much better.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 06, 2012, 10:34:28 AM
Could this project be run using a pair of toroids instead of the regualr trandformers?

Paul-R

Yes, what ever core material you have can be used, you only need to find correct combination of coil length, or coil length and amount of parallel capacitance. Divide toroid in two logical halves and wind coils on it, one on each side exact same amount of turns. This needs to be high self inductance at lower frequencies so it blocks current flow, or you can parallel caps in the first coil to block your grid frequency. So this is a trade off between amount of caps and coil length. I have explained this earlier, you should find better answer there.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 06, 2012, 12:04:05 PM
One more picture to wrap up the first phase of replication in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

And beware, if coils are in wrong way you will get all the power trafo can give times two in the source, so find correct position of lower coil using cap or light bulb as current limiter first. If you need to tune, remove current limiter if you are not using a cap.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: norman6538 on July 06, 2012, 02:06:24 PM
John go borrow a meter from someone you know and then come back with the numbers
and if they are good I'll get excited and start building too.
I already wasted too much time on somebody else's good idea that did not work.
I have other things on my plate to do now.


Norman
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 06, 2012, 02:37:15 PM
John go borrow a meter from someone you know and then come back with the numbers
and if they are good I'll get excited and start building too.
I already wasted too much time on somebody else's good idea that did not work.
I have other things on my plate to do now.


Norman

barotolougos already duplicated, though not highest efficiency because of high idle current. With a bit of math and finding correct parallel cap he will get it right and happy days for us all.
 
Trust me, this is the real deal. Or I am blind and cannot feel heat difference of two similar light bulbs correctly. One burns my hand while other is cold. You don't have to attempt to duplicate if you dont want to, lets enjoy the summer time.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: FatBird on July 06, 2012, 03:25:23 PM
Jack,
 
Please post a picture of your circuit build.
 
Thank you.
 
.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 06, 2012, 09:19:01 PM
Still looking through my junk piles for some 1:1 isolation transformers.  It just occurred to me that some of the old computer UPS units probably have 1:1 transformers in them as they pass through 120 AC when not running off the battery.   Getting ready to pull a couple apart to check it out.  As I've gotten some cheap at garage sales this might be a good source for higher power 1:1 transformers since they seem to be quite expensive from sources I've seen so far.  I'm not sure on this but will post later what I find. 
   
   Old Tripp Lite had 3 transformers but no luck with 1:1's.  Still a few more to check out.   Now I'm thinking old high end audio equipment may have some.  got some of those laying around too. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Groundloop on July 06, 2012, 10:19:35 PM
Still looking through my junk piles for some 1:1 isolation transformers.  It just occurred to me that some of the old computer UPS units probably have 1:1 transformers in them as they pass through 120 AC when not running off the battery.   Getting ready to pull a couple apart to check it out.  As I've gotten some cheap at garage sales this might be a good source for higher power 1:1 transformers since they seem to be quite expensive from sources I've seen so far.  I'm not sure on this but will post later what I find. 
   
   Old Tripp Lite had 3 transformers but no luck with 1:1's.  Still a few more to check out.   Now I'm thinking old high end audio equipment may have some.  got some of those laying around too.

E2,

All switch mode power supplies such as used in computers has a 1:1 Ferrite transformer at the AC input line.
The transformers are small but could be used at lower wattage for testing purpose.

GL.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 07, 2012, 12:56:18 AM

Well, earlier today I ordered two isolation trafos that I found on-line --  on the right in attached.   $11.66 each, from Allied Electronics.
The one on the left, toroidal, is also an isolation trafo and almost did that, but cost $18.11 each... maybe next time, but soon I'll have the two little guys (1.7lbs each actually).

  I was surprised I could get these at such a low price.   

Thanks again, Jack!   lots of fun and adventure thrown in...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: casman1969 on July 07, 2012, 05:02:29 AM
Single or double transformer arrangement requires higher impedance primary than secondary? Is this correct?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: casman1969 on July 07, 2012, 05:03:49 AM
Got the one to one winding part...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 07, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
barotolougos already duplicated, though not highest efficiency because of high idle current. With a bit of math and finding correct parallel cap he will get it right and happy days for us all.
 
Trust me, this is the real deal. Or I am blind and cannot feel heat difference of two similar light bulbs correctly. One burns my hand while other is cold. You don't have to attempt to duplicate if you dont want to, lets enjoy the summer time.

jack... i duplicated the effect and saw that this circuit resembles a current multiplier scheme as a parallel LC tank circuit is. In energy terms i did not find anything extraordinary.
And YES, i urged all experimenters especially to care about different bulbs brightness. This is quite deceptive.

for example.


i took my variac and one 75w 220volt bulb in order to flow some 0.1 amps in order the lamp to light faintly. This happens at 40 volts more or less, thus outputing the bulb some 4w. But if you pass this in your device and the 0.1 amps are of 220v tension is some 22watts (almost double). Assuming a P.F. of 1 then the second bulb will light far far more. :)

In other words current is not indicating of incoming power even in same resistances (bulbs) since different voltages are in play. If you cannot understand that, i cannot say anything more.

...
for experimenting shake,
Make the most efficient setup you can manage in resonable time and feed it with a standard or improvised inverter. Its easy to see input vs output. :)

Happy experimenting
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: AndrejSl on July 07, 2012, 11:38:46 AM
In other words current is not indicating of incoming power even in same resistances (bulbs) since different voltages are in play. If you cannot understand that, i cannot say anything more.

Well of course, that's basic electronics. P (Power) = U (voltage) * I (current)
Jack you should measure amps and volts on both input and output when under load, then use above formula and compare power input and output.

@baroutologos, so what ur saying is there is no overunity here?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 07, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
E2,

All switch mode power supplies such as used in computers has a 1:1 Ferrite transformer at the AC input line.
The transformers are small but could be used at lower wattage for testing purpose.

GL.

Hi Groundloop,   Thanks for the suggestion.  I had thought about that but based on what Jack was saying that they need a lot of winds and fairly high resistance or impedance on the input I didn't think the ones I've seen would work as they mostly appear to have a small amount of winds which I assume will be fairly low resistance or impedance.  I may be wrong on that and may check it out anyway as I've got dozens of those kind of power supplies laying around.

What is your take on Jack's concept here?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on July 07, 2012, 08:11:48 PM
Well, earlier today I ordered two isolation trafos that I found on-line --  on the right in attached.   $11.66 each, from Allied Electronics.
The one on the left, toroidal, is also an isolation trafo and almost did that, but cost $18.11 each... maybe next time, but soon I'll have the two little guys (1.7lbs each actually).

  I was surprised I could get these at such a low price.   

Thanks again, Jack!   lots of fun and adventure thrown in...

Good find there Professor.  While fairly low wattage it's a decent price to check this out.  I'm actually astounded at how much they want for isolation transformers these days.  It's crazy.  I know copper is expensive but some of these places must think they are using gold.  Allied Electronics is a company that's been around forever - I was buying parts from them 50 years ago (maybe even 51 :)  ). 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Groundloop on July 07, 2012, 08:57:17 PM
Hi Groundloop,   Thanks for the suggestion.  I had thought about that but based on what Jack was saying that they need a lot of winds and fairly high resistance or impedance on the input I didn't think the ones I've seen would work as they mostly appear to have a small amount of winds which I assume will be fairly low resistance or impedance.  I may be wrong on that and may check it out anyway as I've got dozens of those kind of power supplies laying around.

What is your take on Jack's concept here?

E2,

>>>What is your take on Jack's concept here?

I have not studied this setup well enough to determine if it works or not.

>>>to have a small amount of winds

The small 1:1 Ferrite transformers used in PC power supply can easily
be taken apart and new windings added.

I think that one way to test this is by building an oscillator at the input and then
measure the power in vs the power out at DC level.

GL.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 07, 2012, 09:48:00 PM
jack... i duplicated the effect and saw that this circuit resembles a current multiplier scheme as a parallel LC tank circuit is. In energy terms i did not find anything extraordinary.
And YES, i urged all experimenters especially to care about different bulbs brightness. This is quite deceptive.

for example.


i took my variac and one 75w 220volt bulb in order to flow some 0.1 amps in order the lamp to light faintly. This happens at 40 volts more or less, thus outputing the bulb some 4w. But if you pass this in your device and the 0.1 amps are of 220v tension is some 22watts (almost double). Assuming a P.F. of 1 then the second bulb will light far far more. :)
...

Did you actually MEASURE the current ("some 0.1 amps")?
Did you actually MEASURE the input and the output POWER?  If so, what were the results (numbers)?

Would you provide a photo of your set-up?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 07, 2012, 09:52:05 PM
Good find there Professor.  While fairly low wattage it's a decent price to check this out.  I'm actually astounded at how much they want for isolation transformers these days.  It's crazy.  I know copper is expensive but some of these places must think they are using gold.  Allied Electronics is a company that's been around forever - I was buying parts from them 50 years ago (maybe even 51 :)  ).

You're welcome, E2.  Hope you will do a build on this system. 
I went ahead and ordered a pair of the $18 toroidal trafos also (shown in post above) --likewise from Allied.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 08, 2012, 01:25:44 AM
Hi Ou dot com Crowd(?),

Yes, measurements, please!

In spite of some 'natural(?)' laziness, perhaps (certainly?) due to too much
pathetic failures and disappointments, I'm still game to test any device that
looks not too much over my building abilities (and my suppliers addresses, BTW).

My failures list is huge.
My motivation is still here but dimming.

Once upon a time, I even was told that one of my (poor) "device" might be kinda 'OU'.
Unfortunately, I promptly and definitely was informed that, over some meter
inaccuracy, it was not the case (= No 'OU'! Move along. Nothing to see)...
Can you imagine the disappointment of an 'OU' moron such me?

However, I'm also still game to spend some monies purchasing (in)efficient(?)
stuffs that would end in some garbage box when I die.
I just want to be enough sure that this new purchasing would not yet be another
useless spending.

I already have 2 small 1:1 trafos.
I would be delighted to consult any -as precise as possible- measurements protocol.

Gwella gourhemennou a-berz
Yann

One says "Please close the window, it is cold outside".
You close the window it still is cold outside.
Pierre Dac.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gsmsslsb on July 08, 2012, 02:31:58 AM
Hello All
I tried this morning with the single isolating trafo design.
But my trafo is too big.
1.5 amps idle current.
I am not sure if I can scale the whole thing up to this kind of size.
If I can get some big bulbs I might give it a go.
LV
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 08, 2012, 07:55:49 AM
Glad to see others are jumping in on this build.

Nerzh writes:

Quote
I already have 2 small 1:1 trafos.
I would be delighted to consult any -as precise as possible- measurements protocol.

1.  Which circuit to build, actually? 
Here I'm looking at building Jack's attached circuit, with or without the cap shown.  Probably will start without the cap at first.

2.  How to measure input and output energy? 
Since the power is drawn from the mains, I think a straightforward watt-meter can be used to measure the input power.  If the output power is approx 60 Hz, then I suppose another watt-meter (across the load) can be used to measure the output power.

Any comments on the above would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: FatBird on July 08, 2012, 02:50:29 PM
It looks like you are Right On Target JouleSeeker.
 
They sell Watt Meters on Ebay.com for $20 with free shipping.
The Kill-A-Watt meter measures Watts, Power Factor, Amps, Voltage, Line Frequency, etc.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 08, 2012, 06:27:44 PM
Did you actually MEASURE the current ("some 0.1 amps")?
Did you actually MEASURE the input and the output POWER?  If so, what were the results (numbers)?

Would you provide a photo of your set-up?

Hey,
i did some actual measurments of my setup and reached some conclusions for me (even though i speak them loudly). then the setup is dismantled.
I do not see the merrit of re-assembling that poor setup of mine or even purchasing a 220 1:1 trafo to "see" and scientifically explain.

i do not ask anyone to "believe me" or to give up experimenting or even influence to do so. It's just my fetich to speak my oppinion (even though based on my facts and judgement and i feel no obligation at all at giving exact figures anymore to anyone. ;)

Happy experimenting
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 09, 2012, 12:50:57 AM
  Thanks, FatBird, good to hear from you.   I have three of the kill-a-watt meters in my home lab.
 Ebay also has a Chinese watt-meter at less than $20 that I use -- I have a couple of these, too.
 
 There is some discrepancy between the two types, calibration differences I suppose.  Thus, it is important IMO to use the SAME type of meter for both the input and output power; and to switch the meters from input and output as a further check.
 
 No numbers, no photo then? -thanks anyway, baroutologos.
 
  (Note: Jack N is on vacation.)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 09, 2012, 04:03:18 AM
@all

@JN asked me to take a look at this but I only had transformers that are 120/117 VAC, so the first secondary that supplies the second transformer cannot act like a perfect isolated transformer.

I tried it anyways and here are the results.

First coil feed via mains and a Variac is 108.4 VAC at 0.54 amps.
Second coil output is 62.8 VAC at 0.5 amps.
Obviously no OU there.

Again of course this trial is not as per the prescribed requirement of an isolated transformer. I tried all possible variables of connections to consider any polarity effect. This was the best of all of them with some even consuming up to 6 amps (really bad). The use of the capacitor doe snot change anything at all.

Since they are not perfect isolated and since I have four of these transformers I tried the primary-secondary-secondary-primary method to pair up two transformers to make two sets to again test. Nothing. There is just too much mass of everything to expect it to work that way. Light did not even go on at full power and tried various connections.

This does not discount @JN claims. It is still rather interesting that the output had anything at all given the connection method. The first secondary output is going in series with the second primary then both are shorted by the second secondary that has the parallel output across it, all under an alternating current. Maybe there is something there but with these transformers, I could not do it. I will find some suitable isolated type but I gather they have to have the highest inductance possible.

Photos of each are shown below.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: AbbaRue on July 09, 2012, 04:41:11 AM
A suggestion concerning getting a 1:1 ratio Transformer. 
Just get 2 rolls of wire the same awg. and wind a bifilar coil. 
Wind as many windings as you need to get the right impedance.


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 09, 2012, 03:13:29 PM
A suggestion concerning getting a 1:1 ratio Transformer. 
Just get 2 rolls of wire the same awg. and wind a bifilar coil. 
Wind as many windings as you need to get the right impedance.

You are right about that but the problem is having the right amount of turns, output wattage, etc. It will be just another place where you can go wrong. At least with standard transformers you have the specs and a proven performance.

I am wondering, I have two good sized toroidal transformers that have two primaries and two secondaries each (Hammond 182P12) and they output 12v at 10 amps so input has to be 120 volts at 1 amp. Maybe by using only the primaries since they are identical and separately wound.
Shown here: http://www.hammondmfg.com/182.htm

I will try it tonight.

Also Hammond has isolated transformers here.
http://www.hammondmfg.com/169.htm
The 169VS seems to be the best choice.

wattsup



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 09, 2012, 04:07:22 PM
@all

Could not wait till tonight so I tried the two Hammond toroidals.

Input: 121.2 VAC at 0.24 amps
Output: 57.6 VAC at 0.50 amps
No capacitor used.

Sorry for messy photo.

Connected as per @JN's first photo, post #1.

Got to go to work now.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 09, 2012, 08:35:26 PM
@all

Could not wait till tonight so I tried the two Hammond toroidals.

Input: 121.2 VAC at 0.24 amps
Output: 57.6 VAC at 0.50 amps
No capacitor used.

Sorry for messy photo.

Connected as per @JN's first photo, post #1.

Got to go to work now.

wattsup
Thanks for presenting these results, wattsup, and for the photo!

Input: 121.2 VAC at 0.24 amps = 29.1 W in
Output: 57.6 VAC at 0.50 amps = 28.8 W out

Efficiency = 28.8/29.1 = 97%, which is pretty good efficiency! 

(I wonder if these toroidals are rated that high...) 
Anyway, I'd say you are off to an excellent start here.
Steve

Efficiency
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lynxsteam on July 11, 2012, 05:04:55 AM
An update, although its not much more than before.

I tried making a square wave (N-S) Bedini motor and failed to do so.  Back to the regular Bedini (N-N).  7000 rpm 42khz.  Can't seem to use the 1:1 torroid setup without burning up transistors.  The torroid acts like a dead short for the AC flyback.  I'll have to study the circuit a bit more, but a 1 Ohm winding is just about a dead short and not protecting the transistor.

So back to the manual AC.  Using the two transformers as drawn and with a capacitor across the second transformer.  A 4.5 volt LED string. 

I can't light the 4.5 v LED string with 1.2 - 2.4 volts directly wired with DC. 

But, striking the battery rapidly simulating 1/2 wave AC and through the transformers, the LEDs light brightly.  Doesn't matter which transformer lead is positive or negative DC.  Again this seems to be very much like Joule Thief action running the LEDs off flyback.  I am sure if I bothered to use these two 1:1 transformers in a Joule Thief they would work quite well to convey the spiked voltage.  While Joule Thiefs defy quick reasoning, they aren't Over Unity.

How the author of this thread increased voltage and amperage with this circuit is a mystery to me.  Perhaps the name of the invention "TrollBuster" is a clue. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: FatBird on July 11, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
Watts Up,  Please try a Diode as shown in the schematic.
 
That should give O/U.  Also, try various size Caps in different places.
 
Thanks for sharing your set up.
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 11, 2012, 06:22:22 PM
On the Russian side... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHitE-1sZpw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHitE-1sZpw) - Romanov explanation of same principles.
Someone need to translate this into English.

Here is self runner(?) based on same principle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU_T4B4fQwQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU_T4B4fQwQ)

It is all about resonance and pushing current forward and backwards...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 12, 2012, 09:32:56 AM
Watts Up,  Please try a Diode as shown in the schematic.
 
That should give O/U.  Also, try various size Caps in different places.
 
Thanks for sharing your set up.

I do not think you want to use diodes in plain 50-/60 Hz mains transformers. it creates an one way current, that dramatically decrases impedance and heavily saturates the core thus causing a lot of idle current flowing. In the 220v winding the resistance will play a major role in limiting current that way.

...
One interesting thing i have noticed with common mains transformer is that they are in a "possitive feedback" state as they are permeated by alternating current. To put it another way, if you have a handy LC meter and measure inductance and then find out impedance of 50/60 Hz, you would realized that actuall impedance maybe a figure of x10 than that of estimated.

example 1

My big 200 VA 220/15 trafo has a 220v winding of 1.75 H. (The bigger the trafo the less inductance you will measure) By applying the impedance calculation for 50 Hz mains at 220vac, a 550 ohms figure is found. Then some 0,5 amp idle current should flow this way. The actual idle current is not more that 20-30 mA. So something is wrong either with meter of trafo working under those circumstances. I have not reasons to believe my LC meter is wrong.

example 2

one of 40va 220/12 trafo i have, measures at 12volts secondary 8.5 mH. The calculated impedance at 50 Hz is 2.67 Ohms. By having my 1KW variac output wired at that secondary and working at 12volt my clamp meter shows some 0,8 amps circulating in that 12volt winding, whereas according my calculation of impedance it should be 5-6 amps?

Can someone verify that or explain to me in scientific terms? What i uderstand is that in a closed magnetic circuit (especially of iron core trafos) there is a feedback effect that seriously enhances measured inductances. This of course in some limits.

Then, i found out by applying a diode (similar to magnetic applifiers) this effect is gone and you observe current flows (when working in the unsaturated area) that correspond to calculated impedance based more or less on measured inductance.
 :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 12, 2012, 11:04:51 AM
Now what is this vacation that you cant sleep with this going on my head ? So I just had to drop in and check how are things going.
 
I have a reasonable explanation how this works, I try to write about this at some stage. It is easier if you think those inductors as virtual batteries that come to live when they are fed with sine wave. Amount of wire length on coils should be same , they form the - and + ends of the virtual battery. The junction is the + and other ends are the -. If lengths are not equal then you will see some losses as current may flow between different level of + potentials and it does not go through the load.
 
First thing that you need accomplish is to drive the idle current down when no load is connected. If your coils do not have enough turns then you need the tuning cap. If you have ferrite and sig gen, then just thrown in some cap and sweep for a sweet spot. If you can measure the L then you should know if your SG can provide needed frequency.
 
Diodes are not needed as this works on both halves of sine wave. Output should be rectified sine, so consider this if you do power measurements.
Two trafo setup might provide easier way to compare power in vs power out.
 
wattsup, thanks for looking into this. All we need next is just one successfull replication and then the fun starts, or a major shit storm. Depends on which side you are on, lol.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 12, 2012, 01:04:44 PM
I realised this is more about core performance than resonance so I want to explain my thinking before experimentations go further possibly in wrong direction.
 
First, lets say your trafo under test is 50 % efficient. You put 100 watts in and get 50 watts out when used as normal trafo. In one trafo setup 100 watts comes into upper winding, it creates 50 watts in lower winding. This 50 watts goes to load. When it goes there, it creates 25 watts in the upper winding in same phase as input so source needs to push only 100 - 25 watts. 100 watts still goes through the load and you now got 150 watts there while using 75 watts.

Tuning for resonance will drive the idle current down, but because of inefficient core you most likely don't get any more out.
With ferrite this is easy to fix by increasing driving frequency. Even if you have low performance core you can measure if the above theory is valid. The effect I observed comes only when core efficiency is high enough and at 50 % efficiency power increase is 2 times the input.
 
If theory is valid then this just got simplified as there is no need for tuning. Tuning did seem to improve my test setup a bit so it shouldn't be forgot altogether. It could be due to fact that my reassembly was not perfect or resonance has some effect.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: broli on July 12, 2012, 02:04:44 PM
@Jack Noskills

Are you willing to send your setup to someone nearby who does have the equipment for a correct power analysis?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 12, 2012, 06:51:24 PM
The isolation trafos that I ordered arrived, see photo and schematic below.
I did some initial measurements with one trafo using a 40W incandescent bulb as a load.  I put the bulb in my light box so I could also keep track of light output in lux.

Input from mains, 122V:
  46W input,  87.6V out at 36.2W, eff = 79%  (so-so), 2050 lux
  Turn light off (open secondary, no load):  2.8W idle

Input from variac, 100V:
   33.8W input,  70.2V out at 26.1W, eff = 77%  (so-so), lux 800
   Turn light off (open secondary, no load):  2.0W idle

Looking at the schematic, the input goes to the red wires in this case;
for the output I used the red/blk and green/blk wires.

Next,  I did some re-wiring to use both available coils as primary; thus connecting blk and red/blk also connecting yellow and green/blk -- to put these as the primary coils in parallel.

Then the red wires become the output.

The efficiency improves using both coils as primary:

Input from variac, 100V:
   52.9W input,  98.9V out at 44.2W, eff =84%  (better), lux 3480
 Vout/Vin = 0.989, nearly unity.

Input from variac, 110V:
   60.6W input,  108.3V out at 50.4W, eff = 83%  (good), lux 4810
   Turn light off (open secondary, no load):  2.6W idle

I will soon proceed to build Jack's 2-trafo design.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on July 12, 2012, 10:02:38 PM
Hi baroutologos,
 
 I also disagree with using a diode in series with a mains transformer primary coil, the simply reason is the diode does a half wave rectification and the created DC current in the coil creates significant copper loss AND may bias the core towards saturation (as you mentioned): this may reduce the self inductance of the primary coil too, increasing input AC current.
 
 Regarding your measurements on transformers, it is indeed strange and I also found big differences in measured no load input current and the calculated input current which came from measured transformer parameters. 
 
 The problem may come partly from the digital LC meter: it does not use 50 or 60 Hz test frequency for L measurements, my own LC meter (Maxwell DMM MX-25 304 old type) uses about 200 Hz in the some hundred milliHenry and Henry ranges and it is doubtful how the different mains transformer cores perform at such a "high" frequency, most cores may lose permeability to some percent but some other cores may lose even half of their '50 Hz' permeability.  This means that a 50 Hz test circuit should be used  for measuring the transformer coils.  I repeat this frequency difference does not fully explain the situation.
 
 However, here is a link which may shed some more light onto this problem:
 http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm (http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm) 
 
 It deals with DC component appearing across the AC line. The DC component can occur for instance from (say) the next door neigbour's hair dryer which uses a series diode in its control switch to adjust heat power, see Figure 1 and Table 1 and also Figure 2.  There are some other 'nasty' appliances that can 'distort' the pure AC voltage by adding a DC shift to the line.
 
 I wonder if you could use a decent 1:1 isolation mains transformer and drive from it the primary of your 200VA trafo and check the idle current, would you find similar 20-30 mA idle current (assuming the secondary output of the 1:1 transformer gives also 220V and not 210V or other different output).
 
 On your example 2: partly the output impedance of the variac plays a role also in the resultant current and it is in series with your secondary trafo coil of course, reducing the current but the difference you measured is rather big and it cannot fully explain the phenomena.
 
 Will ponder on this and if I have some further thoughts, will return.
 
 rgds,  Gyula
 
 PS:  In series resistor - inductance circuits like a transformer coil represents the coil's DC resistance is also to be considered, for a 200VA trafo the primary coil may have 10 -20 Ohm DC resistance, you surely know the formula for such cases:
 ( http://www.sweethaven02.com/ModElec/DcAc/acee/equ0704.gif (http://www.sweethaven02.com/ModElec/DcAc/acee/equ0704.gif) )from this link: http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/ModElec/acee/frm0702.htm (http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/ModElec/acee/frm0702.htm)  (I know that in case the inductive reactance is much higher than copper resistance, then the latter does not count much.)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on July 12, 2012, 10:23:39 PM
Hi Steve,

Normally a decent 1:1 mains isolating transformer has a single primary and a single secondary coil and they are labeled to identify for the user which is which.  The reason is that in the secondary coil the number of turns should be a few percent higher wrt that of the primary to "compensate" for all the losses at a given output power range, this means that the DC ohmic resistance of the secondary should be higher than that of the primary coil.  And if you happen to operate this 1:1 transformer backwards, naturally the original primary coil which is now the secondary will give way less output than used in the designed direction.  In the few percent higher secondary coil turns the approximate efficiency of the transformer manifests (i.e. assuming a 96% efficiency for a decent 1:1 mains transformer (above 100VA power level) the number of turns for its secondary coil is increased by at least 4% wrt the primary turns).

So I suggest to measure the DC resistance of all the 3 coils. Probably the way you connected the two coils in parallel is good but in this present situation where you measured 84%, try to use this backwards too to see how efficiency changes if it does at all.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 12, 2012, 11:00:48 PM
The isolation trafos that I ordered arrived, see photo and schematic below.
I did some initial measurements with one trafo using a 40W incandescent bulb as a load.  I put the bulb in my light box so I could also keep track of light output in lux.

Thanks for a try.

The whole meaning of this experiment is to force condition where you make oscillating resonant circuit between 2 transformers + capacitor and when it happens, it should start pushing power back to the source. So your ampmeter will show least consumption as possible of both trafos. If phase is 180 degrees obviously the ampmeter will show maximum consumption of power rated on first transformer where no load is attached. The power taking out of resonant circuit without killing resonance is another matter and should be governed by opposite than Lenz law.  And the losses of transformers should be compensated by primary power source. When you get resonance with correct phase shift you only neeed support resonant circuit running while current in second trafo between capacitor and windings is on maximum level.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 12, 2012, 11:43:31 PM

Hi Baroutologos,

Very, very interesting experiments and remarks.
Actually, IMO,  your LC meter should be right!
What do you mean by idle current? (= With no load?)
Could you give some simple schematic?
I have a variac, a LC meter and some trafos and I would be pleased to
reproduce your measurements.
-----------------
I was in touch with a (French) guy who claims to get 'OU' out of trafos.
He uses 230 V/60 HZ AC grid current, tri-phases (often hand wound) trafos
and also 'off the shelf' 'normal' (2 or 3 phases) ones.
BTW: he sometimes also uses diodes. ???

Unfortunately, he was very obscure and refused to perform some measurements.
IMO, this person have some huge communicating problems (kinda schizophrenia issues). :(

So, I gave up, but I'm still believing that he is really into something and that
it remains some hidden secrets in trafos...
-------------------
BTW, thanks also to Prof S. Jones for his indefatigable experiments/measurements.
For my part, I'm more a 'contemplative' individual.
Anyway, I have ordered  two 65VA (2*115/230 volts) trafos...

Very Best,
Jean
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 13, 2012, 01:54:06 AM
@JouleSeeker

I also just ordered two isolation transformers (IT) that have two primaries and two secondaries. The company that makes them is in Montreal.

http://www.marcustransformer.com
Model: MO350B
Voltage: Primary 120/240 Secondary 120/240

I could order them locally. To get a single to single IT, I would have to make a special order so more bucks. The one I chose is 350VA. Hope that is not to high.lololololol

When you do your connections, you should identify each wire with a letter then do tests and measure outputs but log the connections and results and this will give you a base for when connecting both ITs together.

Also consider using the two primaries in one IT as the primary and secondary and just forget about the other secondary for now. It worked very well with my toroid transformer. Seems like the two primaries are closer to the core.

Additional to the outputs I am getting, I am also getting output on the secondaries and will work out a way to measure them all at once (if possible) to get a complete output level that will be more them the 97% I am getting now. That's with these regular toroids.

It is a real vacation for me when just using the mains since no mosfets to blow up. lol

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 13, 2012, 07:05:28 AM
Good ideas, thanks. 

Meanwhile I've gone ahead with the straightforward 2-trafo build initially suggested by Jack N.
Results this evening, sorry the vid is hurried and imperfect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Y4J4VQ2JI&feature=youtu.be

Here's the text with my vid tonight:
At ou.com, inventor "Jack Noskills" has open-source presented a clever little circuit, shown at the start of this vid.  Jack presented a few variations, one without the cap C, and that is the one I replicated here.

I used two 1:1 isolation transformers as recommended by Jack, and connected them as shown in his schematic.  My load is one 40-watt bulb, which glows dimly in my light-box (previously described) and I monitor the output lux.  I also record the input and output voltages, and especially the input power and output power (using Kill-a-Watt meters) as I vary the input voltage.

 Here's what I observed:  the efficiency = Pout/Pin improves as I lower the input voltage with this system, while the light output decreases.  It's interesting that a single trafo running on the mains gives me an efficiency of about 84-85%.  With this circuit, I get about that overall efficiency at 90 V input, but as I lower the voltage the efficiency ratio appears to increase, taking the Pout/Pin ratio as displayed on the watt-meters. 

At 70V in, Vout = 47.9V; Pin = 9.6W and Pout = 11.4 so the ratio is 119% (already a surprise...).

At 67V in, Vout stays the same notably, at 47.9V.   Pin drops to 8.9 W while Pout INcreases to 11.8W so the ratio is 133!  strange IMHO.

BEFORE we get all excited, I must note that I have another way of checking on Pout -- this is the light output of the incandescent bulb.  At 70V input, the lux meter reads 38 lux.  At 67V input, supposedly the output power goes up some (although Vout stays the same), yet the lux meter reads 31 lux; down.

 I don't know how to explain all this, but in the spirit of open-source sharing, I share my latest results with Jack's circuit (sans C, but not sans souci).

In any case -- fun!  thanks, Jack N.

Happy experimenting!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 13, 2012, 12:40:42 PM
Results this evening, sorry the vid is hurried and imperfect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Y4J4VQ2JI&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Y4J4VQ2JI&feature=youtu.be)

Very good!

Now we need to take it into physics laboratories and find out what really is cause of effect  8)

Many people failed to understand where exactly we have power amplification and in result we get complex OU circuits while it is enough to have very simple one..

Cheers!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lynxsteam on July 13, 2012, 06:39:40 PM
Joule Seeker - Your experimental results are encouraging and surprising. 
Congratulations Jack - at this point we can't rule this out.  And that is a big step in the right direction!

I am continuing my avenue with your circuit as well.  My thought was that a Bedini motor is so close already to self running when tuned, that your circuit could possibly get it over the "hump".  I know it is farfetched, but that is what I am trying.

This morning I was making some headway.  I now have your circuit fed by the flyback off the collector and outputting through a bridge rectifier.  I did something and blew my last 3055 so I have to go get some more.  I had the output up to 11 volts DC and need to get to 13 volts.  I have changed the drive coil, changed distance, resistance to 33-58 ohms, deleted the isolated secondary.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 14, 2012, 06:59:11 AM
    Sounds like you're making progress, Lynx -- and that's great!  I'd admire your tenacity and clever ideas. 

    Now don't put too much weight on my result from last night...  I warned that while the output power indicated by the Kill-A-Watt P3 meter was high, yet the bulb was DIMMING as I lowered the input (and output) voltage.

   I followed up today with a number of tests.  The most telling was putting just the 40W bulb on the output from the Variac, with just a P3 meter in between.  Plot below shows results. 

Interpretation:   The response of light-lux versus watts in is nice and linear from about 70 V (on the P3 meter) on up to mains voltage, using the P3 Kill-a-watt meter to measure Pin. Below about 70V, the P3 watt-meter is NOT reliable for measuring power.   Looks good for V > 70V on the P3 meter.

I have another watt-meter, by WANF, and it won't even give a power reading when the voltage is that low. 

THIS does not mean that Jack's circuit won't show ou with some work or tuning, but yesterday evening the output power to the second P3 meter was sitting at about 50V when I was getting "interesting" results -- and the METER IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED AT SUCH LOW OPERATING VOLTAGE; as my results today demonstrate, and as the dimming bulb last night was warning me.

It's good to have independent ways to monitor the power, such as light-output and a watt-meter. 



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 14, 2012, 09:10:00 AM
hello Gyula,

You probably are right by the LC meter and inacurracy to measure this type of inductances. Perhaps has to do with its probe measuring wave form or just aything.
i would like to try another small experiment to clarify this further .. but i am in vocations.. so it will wait a bit :)
Carry on.   :)

Hi baroutologos,

... Regarding your measurements on transformers, it is indeed strange and I also found big differences in measured no load input current and the calculated input current which came from measured transformer parameters. 
 
 The problem may come partly from the digital LC meter: it does not use 50 or 60 Hz test frequency for L measurements, my own LC meter (Maxwell DMM MX-25 304 old type) uses about 200 Hz in the some hundred milliHenry and Henry ranges and it is doubtful how the different mains transformer cores perform at such a "high" frequency, most cores may lose permeability to some percent but some other cores may lose even half of their '50 Hz' permeability.  This means that a 50 Hz test circuit should be used  for measuring the transformer coils.  I repeat this frequency difference does not fully explain the situation...

@ Microcontroller,
excellent. This is the measuring minimum standard that should be applied from very start.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 14, 2012, 02:03:27 PM
@all

Well here is my last trials using a secondary configuration as well. Mind again that these transformers are step down and hence not a true isolation transformer.

MAINS: REGULAR WALL PLUG
VARIAC AT FULL: SUPERIOR ELECTRIC MODEL BP5715
INPUT A: 121.9 VAC @ 0.24A = 29.259 WATTS
OUTPUT B: 57.7 VAC @ O.5A = 28.85 WATTS
OUTPUT C: 43.3VDC @ 0.25A = 10.825 WATTS
TOTAL OUTPUT: 39.675 WATTS
HE HE HE that does not include the heat dissipation of the hand burning bulb.
This is crazy.

This will be up soon;
http://youtu.be/HGVWXMmMs1o

Enjoy.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on July 14, 2012, 03:03:56 PM
Hello
because I  am interested in the outcome of this experiment, I must give my 50c .
@microcontroller
You can add up output watts in this case , cause the bulbs consume reals watts (not like caps or coils).


You are not measuring real power at the input side. (The value is to high)
But this measuring error (Input watts) results in a benefit for the cop!!
Because the real input watts are a lower value the cop will be higher.


Nevertheless measure the right 'real watt' input walues.
But I think wattsup , you are on the right track.

At the input side amps and volts are not in phase. I would try 2 things:
1)Put a 'kill a watt meter' directly after the variac . It will show reals watts. If the input voltage at these meter is not too low the measuring electronic will do it's job. For example my energy power meter works in a input volt range between 100V to 240 V .as shown on the label. If your meter's voltrange is similar to this, this is the preferred input watt measuring method.


Method 2 : Use a shunt in series with the input and measure the phase difference between the voltage and the current with a scope. Multiply the volt and amp values that you read now as input values with the cosinus of this phase difference. Than you get the real power.
For the output : there is not phase difference therefor cos(Phi) = 1.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 14, 2012, 04:47:18 PM
Wattsup:

The AC voltage that you are measuring is an RMS voltage.  It looks like the clamp ammeter is measuring RMS current.  Assuming that is true then you can't multiply the two together, you will get an exaggerated wattage calculation.  My suggestion would be to investigate this issue and make corrections if necessary.

For your DC current measurement you are at nearly the rock-bottom output from the digital clamp meter.  Hence your accuracy is very poor.  I would suggest that you just use a regular digital multimeter or an analog ammeter with the proper maximum scale to get a better DC power calculation.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on July 14, 2012, 06:17:42 PM

You can multiply RMS values of U and I to get the average power.The meaning of the RMS Value, be it voltage or current is to get a value that is equal to the case the whole device would be operated with DC voltage / amps.
If you got Urms you can calculate the average power by P=(Urms ^ 2) / R
If you can't measure current , you can now calculate Irms = sqrt(P/R) . And I is now also the RMS - value, because these are DC - like values.
And it does not matter , if he is using meters , that measure rms or not, as long the device is operating with sinewave.
His device is operating at mains frequency and with sine wave.
And for this case meters can be uses that measure mean average U or I , but do internally a multiplication correction for to show the rms (root mean square) , because it's the necessity for power calculations to deal with rms values (meaning volts and amps). If the waveforms in the device were other than sine , [/size]
then he MUST use real RMS meters, for measuring the correct value. (Not necessary here)
(And U and I must relate proportional to each other by ohms law U=R*I no nonlinearities ,
or you can forget your meter with RMS measuring capabilities)
Only the input power measurements are false.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 14, 2012, 06:41:23 PM
TheCell:

Thank you for correcting me, you can multiply Vrms x Irms to get a proper power measurement.

If I can offer a suggestion it would be to use power resistors instead of light bulbs because light bulb resistance varies with intensity/temperature.  Then connect a True-RMS voltmeter across the power resistor to calculate the output power.  The transformers may saturate which would distort the sine wave and you can see that Wattsup's sine wave is not a pure sinusoid so using a True-RMS meter would be advisable.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 14, 2012, 08:27:06 PM
Thanks for sharing regarding your fascinating replication, Wattsup!  More power to you!

You might use a watt-meter (e.g. Kill-A-Watt) on the input power also, as a check. 
Also, why not run straight from the mains?

Have you tried rectifying BOTH outputs?
____

Thanks for admitting this, MileHigh --


TheCell:

Thank you for correcting me, you can multiply Vrms x Irms to get a proper power measurement.
...

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 14, 2012, 09:05:00 PM
MH, How can you expect people to take your suggestions seriously when it is that these people have to correct you on the fact that P=IxV?

I know that you admitted the mistake. But guess what. Now these people have to overlook all that you post. The reason is, when it comes to something as simple as you saying that P cant be derived from IxV, then what are we to think when you post something more complex than P=IxV?  Now we have to question everything

I know you have knowledge and some skills. And you have repeatedly blamed lack there of on the fact that it has been 30 odd years since tech school. Just the other day you said it in the Tar Baby thread, again.  Call me a liar on that one. ;]  If you do, I will provide a list of posts that you state just that. If you like. ;]


Yet with quite a few similar stumbles, a memorable one is the led that biases on at 1v, you still assert yourself as some sort of elder of knowledge, telling people they are fools and such, just because they are very interested in a subject.

You need to reread(and rethink) your posts before hitting that button. Because if you are going to stand up and jump in as the Wizard of OZ, if you keep stumbling like that, these people will find you in that little box, hiding, pulling levers and knobs, trying to make people believe somethings that are really not.

These people are going to experiment and continue to learn about these subjects, whether you post you interruptive oppositions or not.   If we go to look at your posts here at OU, and even just skip the Tarbaby thread posts, what would we see? Its real easy. Just click on Milehigh and click show posts.  Its all there.

I see a lot of negativity in just about every thread you post. I have not yet seen a post from you that shows you trying to help someone try to "advance" on a project.
Why? Because you always oppose any ideas or claims of OU. You are never ever positive on these subjects. Most of us know where you are coming from.

MaGs






Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 14, 2012, 11:48:32 PM
Magluvin.

That's just a bullshit posting by you were you are strutting around puffing your chest out and stroking your ego because you saw me make a mistake.  If I corrected every single error you made and made a big stink about it and gave a speech you would not like it one bit.  The LED example is more bullshit because if someone else made the same mistake you would have politely corrected them and them left it at that.  With me you ran around like a crazy person screaming your lungs off.

Don't start this nonsense again where you are going to "go after me."  What you do know is that I know my stuff and I am not perfect.  Big farking deal.

In my previous posting I was trying to help Wattsup and I made a mistake.  Do NOT make the conscious decision that you are are going to try to make my life miserable every time I make a mistake. 

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: ramset on July 15, 2012, 12:01:30 AM
MH
Quote
  Do NOT make the conscious decision that you are are going to try to make my life miserable every time I make a mistake
end Quote
 
Mags don't you remember we gave that job to Wilby??
{a side note ,I believe wilby was awarded two Gold stars for his efforts in the "Rossi" thread]
Thx
Chet
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2012, 12:32:01 AM
Magluvin.

That's just a bullshit posting by you were you are strutting around puffing your chest out and stroking your ego because you saw me make a mistake.  If I corrected every single error you made and made a big stink about it and gave a speech you would not like it one bit.  The LED example is more bullshit because if someone else made the same mistake you would have politely corrected them and them left it at that.  With me you ran around like a crazy person screaming your lungs off.

Don't start this nonsense again where you are going to "go after me."  What you do know is that I know my stuff and I am not perfect.  Big farking deal.

In my previous posting I was trying to help Wattsup and I made a mistake.  Do NOT make the conscious decision that you are are going to try to make my life miserable every time I make a mistake. 

MileHigh

Oh yea, I forgot to mention the swearing. ;]

If you want me to dig it up in reference to the LED, it clearly shows that you were "adjusting" the led bias voltage(of a red led) to suit you argument. Considering the source was 1.2v. :o You were claiming that the led was being lit by the source alone, when it was really coil collapse that was lighting the led. I know you are good enough to see that, yet you went on to show your own version of what the circuit actually was, even though the maker of the motor had already shown his circuit. Again, you changed his circuit to fit your argument. There are numerous instances of this. But when I pointed out that the led would not light at 1v, your falsified circuit had to go down the drain too, being it counted on the led to pass 1v in order to get the motor to even work.

Let me ask you M. In your post, did you mean that P "can" be calculated by VxI?  Or even Prms= Vrms x Irms?  Is that what you meant to say? If so, then it doesnt suit your argument, does it.  What were you thinking at the time?  Hmm? What?

You are only here to dispute any and every positive finding, without ever even putting it on the bench yourself. If you truly know that it doesnt work, then show me an example proving so. Are you saying you have seen this quite odd circuit using 2 iso transformers, wired the way as shown, in order to have any valid argument against the findings here?

If so please give us reference to such a circuit.  :o   


Anyways, I think it is good that it is not just me catching you doing this.

I hand the stage to you.

MaGs

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2012, 12:36:11 AM
CHET!! 

Wilby has been busy. ;) What you been up to? 

Mags
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on July 15, 2012, 12:53:35 AM
CHET!! 

Wilby has been busy. ;) What you been up to? 

Mags


chet is busy attacking me with his father.   :'(   ;D

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: ramset on July 15, 2012, 01:10:04 AM
Tito
 
Thats "OUR FATHER"
You putz!! [sorry I didn't mean that.......]
 
 
Mags I'll give you a shout.
Thx
Chet
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on July 15, 2012, 01:22:21 AM
Tito
 
Thats "OUR FATHER"
You putz!! [sorry I didn't mean that.......]
 
 
Mags I'll give you a shout.
Thx
Chet


sorry your not my brother cause i'm your sister !  >:(
You patz!!! [ i mean that.....] , and i don't know patz  ;D


is your father the one who art in heaven or who art in hell?  ;D


now i believe that there is energy in friction. :o


Two isolated transformer makes some flowing a resistance between each of them then flux multiplied pulling lots of electron in that vicinity. then increase will happen.  >:( 

ps.
chet adding a makes cheat hahahahahaha  :D  joke

and that's actually the reason why i can't trust you !!!!!!!! :o

Chits  ;D   :P
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 15, 2012, 01:32:42 AM
@all
Well here is my last trials using a secondary configuration as well. Mind again that these transformers are step down and hence not a true isolation transformer.
...
Enjoy.
wattsup


Hey wattup!

I see you made a nice setup there. Your findings are extraordinary so if i may suggest... verfication, verification and verification again! :)

One thing that bothers me, is the green lamp. If its rated as low as 11w at 110 VAC, how can be 11 watts ate 45 volts DC? From eye and experience playing with bulbs, its seems some 2-3 watts to me...
Pardon me, do not want to be a spoiler here. If this your initial findings is the case, i will be the first to open a champaign bottle to celebrate your success!

happy experimenting!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 15, 2012, 01:42:18 AM
Mags:

Quote
If you want me to dig it up in reference to the LED, it clearly shows that you were "adjusting" the led bias voltage(of a red led) to suit you argument.

Two years ago in my mind the forward voltage drop from an ordinary vanilla red LED was 0.7 volts.  That's because it's a diode and a typical diode has a forward voltage drop of about 0.6-0.7 volts.  I mentioned this on a Joule Thief thread and got the crap beaten out of me and I was mocked.  It was about 30 years since the last time I calculated the proper value for a current programming resistor for an LED when you hook it up to a five-volt supply.  So remembering that incident in my mind I thought the forward voltage drop for an ordinary LED was about one volt, not 0.7 volts.  That's how I came up with one volt.

More importantly, it makes no sense to obsess about the specifications of a given part, what's really important is how the part works and is applied in a circuit.  You know that a diode or an ordinary vanilla LED or a modern high-power LED for lighting has a nominal current and a nominal voltage drop.  For diodes, depending on the technology of the diode and the power rating you have different IV curves for different devices.  Same for all the variations of LEDs, they have different IV curves.  So, I don't remember all of the different typical currents and voltage drops for all of the different commonly used diodes and LEDs.  But I know what a diode or LED is, and that's what's more important.  So all of the bashing for forgetting a typical forward voltage drop is uncalled for and gratuitous.

Incidentally, if you (generic 'you') work with diodes and you don't know what an "IV curve" is you should look it up.

Quote
Let me ask you M. In your post, did you mean that P "can" be calculated by VxI? Or even Prms= Vrms x Irms?  Is that what you meant to say? If so, then it doesnt suit your argument, does it.  What were you thinking at the time?  Hmm? What?

What I was thinking is that an RMS voltage already factors in the "square" in order to do power calculations.  That's why you can measure the RMS voltage of any arbitrary voltage waveform across a resistor and deduce the power dissipated in the resistor.  Since Vrms already factors in the "square" I thought that it would be an error to multiply it by Irms because that factors in the "square" also.  So you would be "doubling up on the squares" which would be a mistake.  TheCell corrected me and I did a quick double-check with a simple calculation and realized that I was wrong.  So shoot me!

I was just trying to help Wattsup with his discovery process.  If anyone wants to know what I think of the premise of this thread just post and ask me to tell you.  I will truthfully state what I think and if you don't like what you hear it's your choice to listen to me or ignore me.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2012, 01:51:42 AM
M

Ok, we will just have to accept those facts.

Mags


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 15, 2012, 03:43:35 AM
MileHigh (http://www.overunity.com/profile/milehigh.20740/) and Magluvin (http://www.overunity.com/profile/magluvin.20048/)

Wouldn't it be much better just to find two 1:1 transformers and see results yourself instead?

Seriously, this time it is not complex circuit and you already know how to achieve resonance...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 15, 2012, 04:07:35 AM
MileHigh (http://www.overunity.com/profile/milehigh.20740/) and Magluvin (http://www.overunity.com/profile/magluvin.20048/)

Wouldn't it be much better just to find two 1:1 transformers and see results yourself instead?

Seriously, this time it is not complex circuit and you already know how to achieve resonance...

T
If you believe that it works, then you need only address MH here.
If you believe it doesnt work, then you need only address me. ;]

I have been doing experiments in this area for quite some time. Transformers with inductors added to the circuit. Just never thought of this configuration. This one is unusual, "and simple"  I like it.  Im happy that those that have taken on the task are seeing some good numbers.

I havnt ordered any transformers yet. I have 2 toroid cores that I am going to try some things, while these guys are doing good.

Mags

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 15, 2012, 04:59:40 AM
@all

Come on guys. All we are doing is reporting our results and getting help from some so no need to attack each other for tidbits.

So from suggestions of @JouleSeeker to use a Kill-a-Watt counter, I got one today.

And also @MH's post;
Wattsup:
For your DC current measurement you are at nearly the rock-bottom output from the digital clamp meter.  Hence your accuracy is very poor.  I would suggest that you just use a regular digital multimeter or an analog ammeter with the proper maximum scale to get a better DC power calculation.
MileHigh

So I put the DC output through a multimeter as amps and to my greatest dismay, I saw only 45.5mA. I also took off the Variac and went direct to mains via the Watt Counter.

So while the system is running, with the regular clamp meter on the dc load, I am getting 0.2 amps but through the multimeter, I am getting 45.5mA. There is a great discrepancy between these two so @MH was more then right about that and good thing he caught it so quickly. Thanks man. I was wondering why the bulb was so dim with that voltage at .2 amps it should have been brighter then that, but when I saw .2 amps and did the math, hey, of course it looked good. We try to do our best efforts by the book, but sometimes things can get past us.

So here is a recap of the new numbers;
INPUT VIA WATT COUNTER: 121VAC @ 0.27 AMPS OR 32 WATTS
INPUT by meters A: 121.9 VAC @ 0.24A = 29.259 WATTS
OUTPUT B: 57.3 VAC @ O.47A = 26.93 WATTS
OUTPUT C: 43.1VDC @ 0.0443A = 1.90933 WATTS
TOTAL OUTPUT: 28.83933 WATTS

I put a small video here but it is still uploading (2hrs left);
http://youtu.be/F7MH7TgCxao

So back to the drawing board. I think my new transformers should be in by Monday so I will play around with this some more and see what gives. I think guys with clamp on ammeters that only provide one decimal point precision at low amp readings is not enough and can easily lead one to see OU where it is not, YET that is.

Soon.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 15, 2012, 06:00:53 AM
  It's refreshing to see someone take suggestions and quickly proceed with actual testing -- thanks, Wattsup.

  Your vid is still processing as I write, but I look forward to viewing it.  Glad you went ahead and got the Kill-A-Watt meter also; it may prove useful as we go forward.

 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 15, 2012, 12:27:53 PM
And also @MH's post;
So I put the DC output through a multimeter as amps and to my greatest dismay, I saw only 45.5mA. I also took off the Variac and went direct to mains via the Watt Counter.


This time you changed setup and variac seems is needed component for effect in your case. It acts as first tuned transformer...
Just leave power meter before variac and everyone will be happy :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: guruji on July 15, 2012, 01:44:43 PM
Deleted
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: guruji on July 15, 2012, 01:50:45 PM
Hi Microcontroller thanks for your PM comment that you send. The thing is that you disabled the reply cause I was going to send you my thanks. Another thing if I know something on anything I share it with others not try to bring them down with my comments. It's good that we behave like grown ups to each other not like id**ts.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 15, 2012, 05:35:24 PM
  It's refreshing to see someone take suggestions and quickly proceed with actual testing -- thanks, Wattsup.
  Your vid is still processing as I write, but I look forward to viewing it.  Glad you went ahead and got the Kill-A-Watt meter also; it may prove useful as we go forward.

@JouleSeeker

The only real reason I am pursuing this is because of the following reasons;

1) The device for me is a level one device, meaning is uses standard mains plus off the shelf components that can be easily replicated by anyone around the world. This is the ideal OU device (when it works). hehe

2) My TK works have stalled because I am waiting for a circuit to be built for me by a local EEer. He says during this week it should be ready.

I told you so.
Why you wasting my time posting these faulty results.
Taking measurments the correct way is critical otherwise you don't have to do this kind of research and especially don't post results unless you are clear that they are accurate.

@microcontroller

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. You are right about that.

Basically this exercise now shows that anyone doing output measurements with a clamp on ammeter where the output is in the single decimal range CANNOT BE TRUSTED. That's the learning part of this. One the other hand, yes, I deserve all the flagellations for not seeing that myself. Sorry again. But imagine all the youtubes out there showing such an output with a clamp meter.

This time you changed setup and variac seems is needed component for effect in your case. It acts as first tuned transformer...
Just leave power meter before variac and everyone will be happy :)

@T-1000

I put back the Variac. It consumes 0.04 amps and 4 watts on its own, regardless  of the level being from 0 to 120 VAC when no load is applied to the Variac. With the Variac and the system load, there is no change for the better on the DC output. But I still have some good ideas to test today. This is all small play right now until I receive my real isolated transformers.

But at least we can now say that on the AC output, one side of the big bulb is showing low voltage but the other side is showing a very high voltage rather reactive energy output even when loaded with the bulb. Without the bulb one would expect a much higher reactive output. So there is a low level and a high level output on the AC side and maybe the low level side can be used to pass through some other coil, etc, before it goes to load. But in an AC output, should not both sides be the same level since it is always alternating? When measuring for DC voltage, it shows zero.

Maybe @JouleSeeker can expand on that with his device.

wattsup 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: guruji on July 16, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
Well i don't know what to say.
I did not disable a reply button or anything else so if you are not able to send out a Private Message i wonder who's the idiot.
This makes me think you don't know something about anything.
That must be the reason why you ask idiot questions am i right?

Also, i share too i build and tested the experiment in this topic yesterday, you can see the results on page 6.
kNOWING ISN'T THE SAME AS TESTING, SO SHARING WHAT YOU KNOW IS NOTHING COMPARED TO SHARING YOUR TEST RESULTS.
This means your still in on the game since test results have got nothing to do with you asking idiot questions.


You see you're don't know what I was referring to. Atleast remember on what topic you talked to me on. Ok I'm not going to continue on this nonsense. I hate ping pong arguments who's the best.
Have a good day.
Bye bye.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 17, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
@all

Also, we can say that with a 120v/12v Dual toroid transformer set-up, it came close, not close close, but close, so this bodes well when I get my 120v/120v set-up going. I just got a call from my supplier saying the transformers are in so tonight we can start again. This time...... no mistakes.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 18, 2012, 06:54:11 PM
  Yesterday I purchased a 400 VAC cap @ 5 uF and 45 uF -- and I checked the C values with my meter.

  I placed the cap in parallel with the primary of trafo 2, according to the circuit suggested by Jack Noskils -- but I have not attempted "tuning".  I simply used the C values that I had on this cap.

  The results @ Vin = 122.5 V and Vout = 70.1 V (approx) -- at these voltages, I have checked as explained above and the Kill-A-Watt meters work just fine.

1.  Without cap
Pin = 23.4 W;  Pout = 17.8 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 76% with these trafos.

2. With 45uF cap
 Pin = 37.8 W;  Pout = 17.8 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 47%  -- interesting that Pin went up with this, so that eff went down.

3.  With 5 uF cap
 Pin = 23.4 W;  Pout = 18.0 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 77% a modest improvement.

See photo.  Any ideas?  I have toroidal 1:1 transformers on order...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on July 18, 2012, 08:13:11 PM
Jouleseeker:
 
Did you try reversing one side  of the transformer connections in case your transformer coils were wired the wrong way?
I find it makes a difference, although my specs aren't near Jack's -  so nothing to shout about. - Except reversing connections and repeating the experiment does make a huge difference.
Good Luck.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 18, 2012, 08:56:40 PM
guys,


before we start squeezing our heads, devise setups and applying ideas (although fun), we must consider in the first place. What are we after?
Jack no skills said that! OK he said a clever and interesting arrangemet.. furthermore claimed OU.


Any proof of that? photos of setup?  Crystal clear videos with appropriate measurement equipment placed as suggested? (Pin and Pout measurment)
What the hell with this forum that anyone suggesting the impossible (?) is treated as gury and demi god, whereas the burden of proof lies on the replicators! lol :)


My hunch is telling me, jack, saw his profound mistake as he claimed "input series bulb is dim and cold whereas the output is hot so it must be OU", and i said " current is not a energy index, since different voltages are in play.


Am i wrong?

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on July 18, 2012, 09:22:23 PM
Hi baroutologos,

I agree with you, we have not seen any proof yet...  Somehow Jack avoids reflecting on such questions like a simple photo of his setup.

"The input series bulb being dim and cold and the output one is hot" method is not good at all for making conclusions, unfortunately, you are correct the input and output power is what should be considered, not the brightnesses.

Hi Jouleseeker,

'Tuning' the primary coil of the 2nd transformer can cause phase shift in the coil current and voltage and in case the 60 Hz resonance in the primary is approached the primary becomes a high impedance coil as any parallel LC does, and this involves a smaller input current into that primary and higher reactive currents inside the coil/capacitor. If your primary coil's inductance could be measured at 60 Hz, then the resonating capacitor value can be calculated, in this case you could see what effect this may have for the efficiency.

Gyula
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 18, 2012, 09:41:55 PM
Baroutologos:

I didn't want to say anything because I end up being labelled the "bad" guy but finally you said something and I will take this opportunity to expand on what you said.

To the people in this thread, go back and look at the very first posting made by Jack.  Take a serious critical look at it.  What do you see?

It's more like what you don't see.  There are no critical measurements made at all.  It's all just subjective anecdotal stuff like "This light bulb is dim and the other light bulb is brighter."  That means almost nothing if you don't know anything about the actual voltages and currents and possible phase relationships for the input and the output.  There is nothing like that in the first posting and it's also very obvious that Jack is a beginner.

If you want to take my advice you should all go back and seriously debate Jack's first posting and the points he makes and decide if what he says has any merit.

Beyond that there are other issues but they don't even need to be discussed.  The first and foremost issue is the first posting in this thread.  Is it legit or not?  I am not implying any deception being made by Jack at all.  It's all about the proposition and the measurements (or lack of measurements) and the logic that is being proposed in the first posting.

In a way, this is a microcosm of the original RomeroUK building frenzy.  There were big unanswered questions (Can you show us the output of the FWBR bus?) and as a result people went crazy on a building frenzy with incomplete data.  Just a few simple questions would have busted Romero and would have prevented a whole year's worth of useless experimenting.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Flux It on July 19, 2012, 02:56:15 AM
Baroutologos:

I didn't want to say anything because I end up being labelled the "bad" guy but finally you said something and I will take this opportunity to expand on what you said.

To the people in this thread, go back and look at the very first posting made by Jack.  Take a serious critical look at it.  What do you see?

It's more like what you don't see.  There are no critical measurements made at all.  It's all just subjective anecdotal stuff like "This light bulb is dim and the other light bulb is brighter."  That means almost nothing if you don't know anything about the actual voltages and currents and possible phase relationships for the input and the output.  There is nothing like that in the first posting and it's also very obvious that Jack is a beginner.

If you want to take my advice you should all go back and seriously debate Jack's first posting and the points he makes and decide if what he says has any merit.

Beyond that there are other issues but they don't even need to be discussed.  The first and foremost issue is the first posting in this thread.  Is it legit or not?  I am not implying any deception being made by Jack at all.  It's all about the proposition and the measurements (or lack of measurements) and the logic that is being proposed in the first posting.

In a way, this is a microcosm of the original RomeroUK building frenzy.  There were big unanswered questions (Can you show us the output of the FWBR bus?) and as a result people went crazy on a building frenzy with incomplete data.  Just a few simple questions would have busted Romero and would have prevented a whole year's worth of useless experimenting.

MileHigh

Very well said.

Numbers mean more than opinions and and this needs numbers to be validated, not opinions. Would I love to see the numbers-yes

The BS not so much...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lynxsteam on July 19, 2012, 04:40:57 AM
I don't spend energy on being negative (story below).  I'll leave that to others.  I have said a couple times in this thread that my experiment with two 1:1 torroids showed "joule thief" like results.  Joule Thief circuits amaze but it is just a transformation of power into another form.

For those of you still exploring this, do me a favor and try this:  Feed the circuit with 120 vac but through a common wall mount dimmer.  The dimmer chops the AC sine wave into a saw tooth.  This will simulate the rapid on off we get with a transistor.  My guess is you will see the "Joule Thief" like result I saw.  When the field collapses in the first primary there should be a spike in the secondary.  This spike gets doubled in the second transformer because the voltage is additive if its in phase.  Amperage should drop.  If you feed this spikey voltage to a resistive load it will just convert to watts.  If you feed this spikey high voltage to something other than a resistive load it might be interesting.

I left my fiance with my Triumph TR4 while I was on a business trip.  When i came back I asked her for the key.  She handed me the mail box key.  I told her that wasn't the key and she said "yes it is".  I told her, "I know the key to my car and that isn't it".  She said, "Well that's the key i have been using".  Sure enough the mail box key fit the car ignition.  From then on in life, I am slow to say someone is wrong.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 20, 2012, 12:50:03 AM
Lynx asked:
Quote
For those of you still exploring this, do me a favor and try this:  Feed the circuit with 120 vac but through a common wall mount dimmer.  The dimmer chops the AC sine wave into a saw tooth.

I did just that, feeding the dimmer directly from the mains.  The efficiency did improve somewhat, from about 76% to 83% (without cap).  120.2V in  20.2W Pin  69.1Vout   16.8W Pout, eff = 83%

With two trafos; which is pretty good considering that the Pout/Pin for a SINGLE trafo (one of the pair) is about the same and here we are going through two.

Adding a 5uF cap // to TR2 gave essentially no change; adding a 45uF cap dropped the eff to about 47%.   
   I put two dimmers in series, then into the dual-trafo; eff = 81%, a little less/about the same. 
 Adding a second 40W bulb, eff ~80%, about the same.
I replaced the two 40W bulbs with 2 7.5W LED bulbs, and the eff dropped to about 50%

I also tried switching connections, this time on TR2 output -- and the eff went down to less than 40%.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Magluvin on July 20, 2012, 01:32:52 AM
Lets say we have the original circuit, 2 trafo's and the load across 1 coil of the second trafo. What is the input with and without the load connected? Is there much difference?

If not, does the output to the load equal the difference of input with and without the load?

Just something to try. If the difference in input is smaller that what is output to the load, there might be something in the mix. ;]  Simple enough to try.

MaGs
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 20, 2012, 02:12:09 PM
@all

I have done my set-up with my new isolated transformers and did not see anything out of the ordinary in the regular connection. I am putting down the same diagram as @JN did on page one but this time I am identifying each side of each coil so that guys can speak in terms of connections and "polarities".

I am saying polarities because even though this is AC fed to A-B, hence AC is transferred to C-D, once the AC from C-D hits the point E from one side and point G plus one side of the Load, the game changes, but how? It seems like the AC is forced into one directionality that would have one side slightly off phase. 

Anyways, when you set-up this circuit, you may have to change connections around and test the set-up in all variables while still keeping the diagram disposition intact. If you do that then you will eventually find the set-up I just made that is pretty freaky.

So I am also adding some info on my new transformers.
They are presently hooked up on all sides in the 120 volts mode.

But it depends on the transformer model, you start with this one below in one connection method, then just start switching the connections around to only one coil at a time.

I uploaded to youtube the following video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hfbVE4Hfo

Now going to work so tonight I will make a diagram showing the connections in that video.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on July 20, 2012, 02:17:12 PM
Hi, wattsup
re dot convention.  Should there be a dot at E in your diagram?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 20, 2012, 03:39:25 PM

I uploaded to youtube the following video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hfbVE4Hfo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hfbVE4Hfo)

The wattmeter most likely shows measurent error. In best case you could find 100W+ 1 Ohm resistor and attach to "cold" wire from mains in series then put oscilloscope on resistor and see RMS amps.
You are mixing reactive power comming back from transformers with conventional power so funny things happen. :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lynxsteam on July 20, 2012, 05:15:03 PM
Can someone draw a diagram of how you think current flow is moving for one half of the sine wave?  I am unclear what the intended path is given all the various dots, wiring conventions, tags, etc....  I can see how the voltage could be amplified if the sine wave is in phase, but I don't see how amps wouldn't drop.  Also, in any cored transformer you lose some power due to eddy currents (heat).  And heat in the windings due to resistance.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 20, 2012, 05:19:16 PM
The watt meter most likely shows measurement error. In best case you could find 100W+ 1 Ohm resistor and attach to "cold" wire from mains in series then put oscilloscope on resistor and see RMS amps.
You are mixing reactive power coming back from transformers with conventional power so funny things happen. :)

@T-1000

Well, the problem is with this set-up that the output transformer E-F-G-H was starting to give some slight smoke so I stopped the video. I will start again tonight and make a clear connection diagram and do some tests at lower voltage off the Variac. But again, my diagram is good for my transformers and may not apply to others.

The info on my transformers was supplied to me by the manufacturer. I asked them how many wire turns per coil and winding direction per coils but they did not provide that information. Just the info sheet as shown.

The point here is by using the same @JN diagram, if you start switching the wires around and re-do your tests, you may get to the same situation as I am at now.

What is incredible is that I am getting more voltage output then the applied input voltage while still being at the 120 volts connection mode so there is something happening with this method. If this was making a simple short circuit, that would explain the input amps/voltage/watts, but 2000 watts seems so high for such a reading, and then try to explain the increased output voltage.

Something is funny and it is not Red Skelton (although he is very funny).

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 20, 2012, 08:04:38 PM
@T-1000

Well, the problem is with this set-up that the output transformer E-F-G-H was starting to give some slight smoke so I stopped the video. I will start again tonight and make a clear connection diagram and do some tests at lower voltage off the Variac. ...
What is incredible is that I am getting more voltage output then the applied input voltage while still being at the 120 volts connection mode so there is something happening with this method. If this was making a simple short circuit, that would explain the input amps/voltage/watts, but 2000 watts seems so high for such a reading, and then try to explain the increased output voltage.

Something is funny and it is not Red Skelton (although he is very funny).

wattsup
Looking forward to seeing your connection diagram.  I'll try it.

Yes, the 2kW is indeed odd...  easiest thing to do would be to measure the input current using a clamp-on meter, as a check.  If things are starting to smoke, be quick  ;)

Hey, I remember Red Skelton -- very funny guy.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 20, 2012, 11:54:27 PM
  Having suggested a check using a clamp-on ammeter, I did it.. with interesting results.

See photo -- current shows as 0.12A, whereas the P3 kill-a-watt meter says about 0.2 A (and 19.5 W in). 
0.12A x 113.5V in = 13.6 W input.

The output P3 meter shows 64.5V and 15.8 W; but I'm beginning to suspect its accuracy here -- at least I need to check with different meters!  The clamp-on shows output current of 0.20 A (P3 meter shows 0.24A).
0.20A x 64.5V out = 12.9W output. 

At least we can compare with above, having used consistent tools:  12.9 out/13.6 in = 95%.
 Which is quite good, since as Lynx noted, there are losses in the two trafos.
Indeed, using one of these trafos, I found its eff ~ 84%, for just one trafo.

BUT I'm still trying to convince myself of the measurements... how we measure Pin and Pout.

The main conclusion is -- I don't trust using just the P3 Kill-a-watt power meter (hereafter, P3 meter) alone... even though it tested out well using light bulbs of known Lumens, straight from the mains -- there everything agreed and gave me some confidence in these meters.

Also -- I have another clamp-on ammeter, checked that, and the two clamp-ons agree with each other very well.  (And disagree with the P3, especially for the input current measurement.)

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 21, 2012, 01:22:13 AM
@JouleSeeker

Here is the diagram. Hope it is understandable.

I agree about the P3 as well as about mine. There is something not right with the reading. But what do you expect from a 20$ watt counting meter that is designed for 60Hz appliances that consume a steady and "non flybackable" (hichic) energy consumption. I think our regular measuring instruments have worked well till now. It is only when the amps are in the single decimal point range that we have to be careful and better to simply put a multimeter inline.

Anyways, the diagram shows exactly how I connected for the last video and I will do some more experimenting tonight. I will put two scope probes at various locations and see if there is any phase differences. I guess if the phasing is n ot the same, I should see two sine waves slightly offset.

Also, on the output, if this is AC output, then both output locations should show the same voltage level. Right or wrong? Well in my set-up, when you check the output on the scope on each of the load points, one is about many times higher then the other.  Don't know exactly how high yet. I will have to find some more scope probes because my last one just fizzed a few days ago. I'll have to dig around the office since i know I have two more somewhere. lol

Lastly, maybe @MH can see through this and come up with a half decent explanation but for now, I am at a loss to explain it.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on July 21, 2012, 01:44:00 AM
Steve,

Unless I am mistaken, it appears from your photo that the clamp meter has BOTH conductors of the line cord going through it. You must have only ONE conductor going through.

I suggest you move the meter over to where the wiring breaks out to the transformer leads, then you can clamp around ONE of the leads.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 21, 2012, 03:43:30 PM
Steve,

Unless I am mistaken, it appears from your photo that the clamp meter has BOTH conductors of the line cord going through it. You must have only ONE conductor going through.

I suggest you move the meter over to where the wiring breaks out to the transformer leads, then you can clamp around ONE of the leads.

You are mistaken in this case, Poynt -- there was only ONE conductor going through the clamp-on meter. 
The single conductor going through is a brown wire from the cord going to the P3 meter.
And when I used two clamp-on meters for comparison, each had ONE of the brown wires from this cord going through it.  Both clamp-on meters then agreed on the input current (and disagreed with the P3 meter).

Thanks for the diagram, Wattsup.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on July 21, 2012, 05:01:36 PM
OK Steve, that's good. The point needed to be raised though. ;)

It's difficult to see that on the photo. It really does appear as though the whole cord goes through the clamp meter, surely you agree at least that it appears that way?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 21, 2012, 09:17:19 PM
Poynt: " It really does appear as though the whole cord goes through the clamp meter..."
   It may appear that way, but then the clamp meter would show zero amps.

Anyway, I've taken another photo showing two clamp meters -- each shows 0.14A (AC) while the P3 meter shows 0.25A (demonstrating the discrepancy and the reason I question things).

   Hopefully one can clearly see in this photo that one wire goes through each clamp meter.

I also looked at the power fact P.F. -- for the input, it shows as approx. 0.6  -- and it varies, 0.5 to about 0.7.  (The input power comes from a dimmer, which is connected to the mains.)
 Could this be why the P3 meter is having difficulty getting the AC amps (and the power)?  Also, are the clamp meters accurate when PF is NOT unity?  How does one measure the current accurately -- or better, the power -- when the PF is not 1.0?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 21, 2012, 09:39:17 PM
To further explore the question of how to measure Pinput when PF is not 1, I connected the input plug directly to the mains; see photo which now shows the clamp meters at 0.17 A while P3 shows 0.19A.  This is much better agreement than with the dimmer, where the PF was approx 0.6.  With the mains for this circuit, the input PF is shown on the P3 meter to be 0.99-1.0. 

   It thus appears that the P3 meter performs reasonably when the Power Factor is 1.0, but not reliable otherwise -- either the P3 or the clamp meters are not reliable when PF < 0.7 anyway. 

The question comes again -- how does one reliably measure the power (say, around 20 watts) when PF < 1?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on July 21, 2012, 10:41:56 PM
I also looked at the power fact P.F. -- for the input, it shows as approx. 0.6  -- and it varies, 0.5 to about 0.7.  (The input power comes from a dimmer, which is connected to the mains.)
Ah, yeah. That's a definite no-no if you expect to be able to measure accurately with the meters you are using. Not even the clamp meters will measure accurately with a chopped up sine wave.

Quote
Could this be why the P3 meter is having difficulty getting the AC amps (and the power)?
Definitely!

Quote
How does one measure the current accurately -- or better, the power -- when the PF is not 1.0?
Buy a variac!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 21, 2012, 10:50:21 PM
  I have and have used a variac, with this very system Poynt, as I've discussed earlier on this thread.  But as Lynx noted, it may be that a spiked voltage is better for the response (better than simple sine-wave). 

  I may have to go back to the fancier DSO, and use P(t) = V(t) * I(t), getting the power moment-by-moment, thus getting the power waveform.  This can then be integrated to get the total energy; also the average power.  I was hoping the simpler meters would do the job, but evidently not for PF<1 and for non-sinusoidal waveforms.  It's an old problem. 


 For the output power, I still prefer calorimetry -- simply heating water with a resistance.  Power = Q(heat) / Time.

Or, if one could get Jack's circuit to work ou with sinusoidal waveforms and PF=1, then this should be easy to measure.
Any other ideas?

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on July 21, 2012, 11:02:03 PM
If you feel that a spiked voltage (not sure where or why) is better, then yes you will have to resort to using a DSO if you want to measure the power accurately.

What were your results when you used a variac?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 21, 2012, 11:12:32 PM
@T-1000

Well, the problem is with this set-up that the output transformer E-F-G-H was starting to give some slight smoke so I stopped the video. I will start again tonight and make a clear connection diagram and do some tests at lower voltage off the Variac. But again, my diagram is good for my transformers and may not apply to others.


That looks like you are trying to use 2 primary coils on same transformer and they got connected in parallel but on such way they create max load to each other inside of transformer. Try to connect one of them in reverse order and see if you still get max amperage used without load. I strongly recommend to connect lightbulb in series for fuse element before Variac so in case of short circuit /max load on idle transformer your lightbulb will be lit brightly.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 22, 2012, 12:08:02 AM

Hi OU Dot Com Blokes,

AC Input vs AC Output power measurements... what a nuisance!  :(
These "kill a watt" cheap meters seem to cheat us.
Why not using at least DC input? With a DC bat and an inverter, for ex.
First "calibrate" = figure out the efficiency of this device and then take account  of it for
the COP calculations.

BTW: this could also be used for any Sonic Boiler... :P

--------------------
I played with:
1) A 1 to 1 small trafo (measured Henries: about 0.350 H primary and secondary).
2) A signal generator (see picture) (and also an home made 555  +  Mosfeet square wave gen).
3) And old hammeg HM207 scope.

I have noticed that, with *square* waves:
These square waves "morph" into nice sine waves when you approach the resonant freq of the
trafo (about 170 KHz in my case). A trafo as also some (small) capacitance. No?
When I reach this very freq the 'peak to peak' voltage is multiplied by more than ten.
Beware: no load here! No 'OU' claimed.

Anyway, I did not know that you can transform square waves into (more apparent 'voltageable')
sinus waves with a mere 1:1 trafo should you reach the right freq. Did you?
Of course, with a sine wave you can also observe a voltage multiplication at resonance.

Very Best from Brest,
Yann
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on July 22, 2012, 12:52:20 PM

--------------------
I played with:
1) A 1 to 1 small trafo (measured Henries: about 0.350 H primary and secondary).
2) A signal generator (see picture) (and also an home made 555  +  Mosfeet square wave gen).
3) And old hammeg HM207 scope.

I have noticed that, with *square* waves:
These square waves "morph" into nice sine waves when you approach the resonant freq of the
trafo (about 170 KHz in my case). A trafo as also some (small) capacitance. No?
When I reach this very freq the 'peak to peak' voltage is multiplied by more than ten.
Beware: no load here! No 'OU' claimed.

Anyway, I did not know that you can transform square waves into (more apparent 'voltageable')
sinus waves with a mere 1:1 trafo should you reach the right freq. Did you?
Of course, with a sine wave you can also observe a voltage multiplication at resonance.

Very Best from Brest,
Yann

Hi NerzDishual,

The same "phenomena" happened with the MEG setup when the builders tuned the input pulse generator to find the highest output voltage amplitude and they found a sinus or very much sinus-like waveform as the peak output across the trafo's secondary coil.  I agree this occurs at the trafo's resonant frequency i.e. putting this more precisely, it occurs at one of the trafo's coils resonant frequency.  (of course if trafo has several different coils then there can be as many resonancies as coils.)  In the MEG case the secondary coils were in the Henry range, (5.7H with Naudin's metglas core coil, http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm ) and the coil's self capacitance (a few pFs) constitutes resonance with its self inductance and you can consider the secondary coil as an LC tank kicked by the input pulses via the primary coil which has much less number of turns and acts like a coupling coil to the LC tank.  And at resonance, the voltage and current is sinus wave across and inside the tank provided the loaded Q (figure of merit) is reasonable high like say 8 or 10 or higher.  Away from resonance the voltage and current is not sinus wave across or in the tank of course.

Greetings,  Gyula
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 22, 2012, 05:49:07 PM
  Good points, Nerz and Gyula.
Quote

'Why not using at least DC input? With a DC bat and an inverter, for ex."

  As usual, reliably measuring Pinput and Poutput is crucial to our progress.  (Sorry to sound like a broken record, repeating myself here...)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 25, 2012, 07:32:01 PM
@JouleSeeker

Thanks for your PM. I will send you an e-mail tonight from my home office.

As for testing with the two recent transformers, up till now I have not seen anything out of the ordinary. I tried connecting in many ways but again nothing special besides what I showed in the last video, that is basically running the transformer at near short circuit with good output, but not OU.

Also tried by putting a 250v 35uF capacitor in many points but again nothing but increased input consumption.

I don't mind about buying the transfo's because I will be using them in the TK tests as well to simulated TK adding his looping transformer.

The only real curiosity is how this is working in terms of applying a AC input then jumping the output of the first transfo to the second and the effect this has on the second output. This can be shown with scope A and B at various places to show the phasing differences. If there is anything really interesting in that, I'll make another youtube to show it.

But with the new tranfos my efficiency rate is never as high as when I used those toroids that were 2 x 120/2 x 12. This is pretty incredible when you thin the 120 to 12 step down is giving me better results then a 1:1.  @JN did mention that the core material may be important and I can see that part of his reasoning to be correct since these standard laminated cores are not giving anything near the toroidals.

So, I cannot at this point certify that @JN is just full of really hot beans. lol

But let's just say the pot is simmering in that direction. lol

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 25, 2012, 10:15:43 PM
People were doing reliable power measurements on circuits with complex waveforms long before anyone had digital oscilloscopes, or even digital cameras and calculators.

As I think .99 can affirm, a manual power computation procedure using an analog oscilloscope can produce results that are typically within a few percent of those obtained by digital scopes or even directly from simulators. And of course the computation of instantaneous power produced in this manner -- by multiplying instantaneous voltage by instantaneous current -- fully accounts for power factor.

It's all a matter of resolution and attention to detail. If you are willing to sweat and concentrate for a couple of hours, you can get results with a few hundred dollars of gear (a good analog scope and a digital camera) that are _as accurate and precise as your measurement technique can produce_ even using an oscilloscope that costs ten or _a hundred_ times as much. Of course the DSO will give you the result in milliseconds.... but is it really worth it, to get a fifth or sixth digit of precision, when you cannot possibly do better than three with your standard probes and wires and component tolerances and such?

@wattsup: try putting a good fast diode in series with your capacitor, and repeat your tests looking at the DC voltage across the cap.

Output power measurements can be reliably performed using a "photocalorimeter". Choose a suitable incandescent light bulb for your power levels, and make a light tight enclosure for it. Use a CdS photoresistor and a regular resistor to make a "potentiometer". Feed the voltage output of this potentiometer to one input of a 741 op amp configured as a single-supply voltage comparator. Use a real, 20 turn precision pot and a turn-counting knob for input to the other input of the 741. Have the output of the 741 turn on an LED when the comparator sees the voltages on the inputs equal. Calibrate the system with known DC power input to the bulb.  Input your unknown, note where the knob position is when the LED changes state, feed known DC in until you get the LED to change state at the same knob position.
Less than ten dollars worth of parts and milliWatt accuracy if done right.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 25, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
I'd also like to "inject" a theoretical point here. In a transformer, the voltage of the secondary depends significantly on the rate of change of the voltage, hence the current, hence the magnetic field of the primary. So for the maximum voltage rise in a secondary, you want to get the maximum rate of current increase in the primary: drive with as square, fast risetime pulse as possible, and you will get the maximum voltage in your secondary at the resonant frequency. The importance of a fast risetime pulse for maximum voltage is masked because of core materials. They do not allow the benefits of fast risetime and virtually unlimited magnetic field strength because of saturation and viscosity effects. This is why air-core coils, trafos if you like, are used for extreme HV purposes like radio transmitters and Tesla coils.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on July 26, 2012, 01:25:04 AM
Just a few basic building block thoughts.

Any transformers will have resistive losses in the primary and secondary wires and in the optional core material as everybody knows.  There are also losses associated with the stray changing flux that does not take part in the power transfer mechanism.

For Wattsup, it's pretty easy to deduce why you got poorer results with the 1:1 transformers.  Naturally they are designed for higher power, and the relative losses at higher power become really low.  But at lower power there is a "background loss" process that is fixed in value (more or less) and it became significant at lower power.

The larger core volume in the 1:1 transformers means that there are way more magnetic domains to flip for each cycle.  Many have seen the "hysteresis loop" for magnetic core material.  It's the area inside the loop that is equivalent to the lost energy per cycle.  So a physically larger core has a correspondingly larger hysteresis loop and hence more energy lost per cycle.

A simple analogy or example of a hysteresis loop is when you compress a pillow.  When you remove your hand from the pillow the pillow does not push back with the same force.  So energy is lost between the "push in" and the "push out" and that heats up the pillow.  So a pillow has a mechanical hysteresis loop that can also be measured.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Kator01 on July 26, 2012, 01:39:36 AM
Hello Tinselkoala,

but you either tune the output with large capacitors fot the range of 50 Hz or you tune the input-frequency.
Now this has been shown in the basic transverter-video ( still no ou has been achieved, because the output is pure reactive power which is hard to extract )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo)


Regards

Kator01
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 26, 2012, 03:55:35 AM
Hi very witty, clever and active OU guys!

I would like to thank some people here.

It sounds like that:
- We do not need wires (at least one wire is sufficient!)  = we do not need
(official) electrons/current to charge up a capacitor and to light some 'lamps'.
Thanks to Lynx. See: Joule Lamp.

- We do not need (official) electrons/current to perform electrolysis save this
(fictitious?) "displacement current". Thanks to Chistopher Robert Eccles.
See attached (one) Eccles  patent. "Fracture cell apparatus" - GB 2.324.307A R.Eccles.pdf

Thanks also to "Frederic David Tombe" about "displacement current":
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf (http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf)
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf (http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf)

- We can use pure reactice power.
Tanks to Kator01 for referencing an informative vid.
 
Topic appart:
- Homeopathy does not need molecules. Thanks to (Late) Jacques Benveniste.

So, all what is called kinda 'fictitious' by Mainstream Science seems to actually  be "solid". Seems it not?

Very  Best from Brest,
Yann

PS: please, just an off topic question to "Nikola Tesla" Backward spelled:
Did your self running magnetic motor were faked? Or what?



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 04:09:55 AM
Hi very witty, clever and active OU guys!

I would like to thank some people here.

It sounds like that:
- We do not need wires (at least one wire is sufficient!)  = we do not need
(official) electrons/current to charge up a capacitor and to light some 'lamps'.
Thanks to Lynx. See: Joule Lamp.

- We do not need (official) electrons/current to perform electrolysis save this
(fictitious?) "displacement current". Thanks to Chistopher Robert Eccles.
See attached (one) Eccles  patent. "Fracture cell apparatus" - GB 2.324.307A R.Eccles.pdf

Thanks also to "Frederic David Tombe" about "displacement current":
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf (http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf)
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf (http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf)

- We can use pure reactice power.
Tanks to Kator01 for referencing an informative vid.
 
Topic appart:
- Homeopathy does not need molecules. Thanks to (Late) Jacques Benveniste.

So, all what is called kinda 'fictitious' by Mainstream Science seems to actually  be "solid". Seems it not?

Very  Best from Brest,
Yann

PS: please, just an off topic question to "Nikola Tesla" Backward spelled:
Did your self running magnetic motor were faked? Or what?


Well, all I can say is " as a thing is viewed, so it appears."

Those who use what mainstream science calls "fictitious" or rather, pseudoscience.... aren't going to go very far in their efforts. If what you are seeing appears to violate some strongly held physical principle or law.... the first thing you should do is to carefully reevaluate what you are seeing, and take another look.

Well, I wasn't intending to get into this here, but if that last video is topical, then... in response to that last video and the comments about reactive power and so on.... here I demonstrate ZERO wires power transfer, NOT broadcast, at high efficiencies, using AIR CORE resonant coupling, extracting LARGE AMOUNTS of real power from the reactive power in the power supply to perform useful work, apparently violating inverse-square falloff with distance and providing a "hook" or path by which other energies might enter the system from elsewhere...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIC47PN1-ys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK90_CbnAeY
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 26, 2012, 05:15:37 AM

OK, Tinsel... and so on.

Obviously, you really did your homework.
Obviously, you are very knowledgeable.
Obviously, you are a very good experimenter.
Obviously, you are a very clever individual.
Obviously your English is far better than mine (of coarse)...

Obviously, (IMO, :) )) your EGO is as huge as the Fujiyama.
I have a great respect for you but I do not like you.
I also do not fear you (at all) BTW.

Obviously, you have not answered my simple question:
Was your very running on magnets only motor a fake?

Obviously, Backwarding 'things/names/etc... is a Satanic way.
What is your (hidden) agenda?

Le bonjour vous va, cher Monsieur,
Jean-Yves
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 07:31:27 AM
OK, Tinsel... and so on.

Obviously, you really did your homework.
Obviously, you are very knowledgeable.
Obviously, you are a very good experimenter.
Obviously, you are a very clever individual.
Obviously your English is far better than mine (of coarse)...
However, my French is execrable, much worse than your English. But you knew that already, didn't you.
Quote

Obviously, (IMO, :) )) your EGO is as huge as the Fujiyama.
I have a great respect for you but I do not like you.
I also do not fear you (at all) BTW.

I cannot express how very heartbroken I am that you do not like me. After all, my ego requires that everyone love me unconditionally. If they do not, I immediately have to make myself a cup of strong coffee and watch a TeleTubbies episode to regain my composure.

Quote
Obviously, you have not answered my simple question:
Was your very running on magnets only motor a fake?

Obviously, your question isn't simple at all, and of course it has been answered many times. If you are referring to the Overconfident OCMPMM, I really cannot recall the inventor, Overconfident (may he rest in peace), ever making any claims of overunity performance for that device. None of the demonstrations that I have seen, and I have seen many, require the assumption of overunity or extraordinary behaviour of any kind to explain. Only if you are _looking_ for an overunity device, will you think you _see_ one.

Quote
Obviously, Backwarding 'things/names/etc... is a Satanic way.
What is your (hidden) agenda?

Le bonjour vous va, cher Monsieur,
Jean-Yves

On the contrary, "backwarding" or anagramming things/names/etc. has nothing at all to do with Satan... because you see, friend Jean-Yves.... Satan does not exist. Obviously.... there is evil in the hearts of men, that is certain... but it is perfectly human, not supernatural at all.

However.... as a thing is viewed, so it appears.  If you believe that I am somehow evil or Satanic, based on the fact that my internet alias is an anagram of my mother's maiden name, Stella Nokia ....... I believe that says more about you, than it does about me.

 ;)

ETA: Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. If I have an agenda, it's not hidden at all. I want people to stop making silly mistakes !! It would also please me to see them learning to use their test equipment effectively.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 26, 2012, 01:33:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo)

Now if you add this resonant LC circuit as transformer in series to another transformer and make current phase difference from voltage more than 90 degrees, the funny part begins :)

To take out reactive power, you will probably need either current transformer or transformer with bifilar layers interconnected primary for maximum voltage in LC part and capacitor like winding in secondary for maximum current output. When current separation from voltage is done, it is all good.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 26, 2012, 02:53:45 PM
TinselKoala (clever name, as Jean pointed out) wrote on p. 10:
Quote
here I demonstrate ZERO wires power transfer, NOT broadcast, at high efficiencies, using AIR CORE resonant coupling, extracting LARGE AMOUNTS of real power from the reactive power in the power supply to perform useful work, apparently violating inverse-square falloff with distance and providing a "hook" or path by which other energies might enter the system from elsewhere...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIC47PN1-ys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIC47PN1-ys)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK90_CbnAeY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK90_CbnAeY)

Intriguing vids, would like to understand better.  In your "supernova mode", the bulbs are very bright but the input power is also high.  I see that and the frequency shift for this SN mode - but what is going on here?  some sort of resonance-coupling, or what?  Pls explain.

The titles with these vids includes the term "electric OU"... Are you claiming OU?   (I think not; but would appreciate the clarification of the term "electric OU".  Indeed-are you measuring output power, quantitatively, or could you?)


 PS -- I like your term "photocalorimeter" -- this is what I've been practicing with my calibrated light-box.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 26, 2012, 03:12:16 PM
@TK

Don't fret about name calling members.

Even thought this is not @JN relevant, your videos with Tx and Rx effects is just great.

I have questions about your set-up.

1) On the Tx side,  since your voltage reading does not change (fixed voltage applied) and only your amp readings is increasing in certain conditions. So where is the amps read in series?

2) If the voltage reading is parallel to the Tx circuit feed and the amps is in series with the same location, I would like to know if in your Tx circuit after the feed, is there any full bridge rectifier that is isolating any possible return from your Tx coil back towards the feed side that may be the cause of the increase in amperage reading.

Meaning, is it possible, if this is DC pulsed Tx, that the receiver receives this DC pulsed Tx, hence a signal that goes on and off is exchanged, but when the Tx is on, the Rx is off, and when the Tx is off, the Rx is on. If this is the case then this may explain your Nova mode where when the Tx if off, the Rx is transmitting to the Tx, and when the Tx is on, the Tx is transmitting to the Rx so in essence is it possible that both Tx and Rx are both Tx-ing and RX-ing to each other in a loop that produces the Nova mode.

3) In your video, while you were playing with the third loop on the left of the Tx or between the Tx and the Rx and this increased the Rx fan speed, I could not help but realize you were showing, in a way, @otto's ECD function were all that is missing in yours is a mobius loop were half is Tx and half is Rx that feed each other to increase output. (Maybe a bad flash in the brain but when you were adjusting the third loop distances, @otto's ECD just jumped out at me given his loops had about the same distances.

When @otto was doing his ECD experiments, he had reported that under certain conditions his power supply voltage and amperage readings were just going haywire. I have seen this happen many times myself but we know this is not indicative of a dramatic increase in power consumption but rather the voltage and amperage readings were showing a high return of flyback from the pulsed device.

I guess the base question is...

4) How does the Tx side realize it needs more power as seen by the increase in the amperage readings you are showing under certain conditions? That is a big one to ask.

wattsup

PS: @JouleSeeker

Just saw your post that is in the same line as mine.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 04:24:14 PM
TinselKoala (clever name, as Jean pointed out) wrote on p. 10:
Intriguing vids, would like to understand better.  In your "supernova mode", the bulbs are very bright but the input power is also high.  I see that and the frequency shift for this SN mode - but what is going on here?  some sort of resonance-coupling, or what?  Pls explain.
It was not my intention to "hijack" this interesting thread. However, it does seem that my work lately has been relevant to this thread's topic and that of one or two others.
I too would like to understand the phenomena that I illustrate in the video. I believe that there is some mutual influence, mutual coupling, that alters the resonant frequency of both the sender and the receiver until they are mutually resonating. It could be happening in just the receivers or in both units; I have some videos where I can get the SN mode in one receiver without affecting the performance of others at all.
The system operates at a minimum of about 500 kHz though, so the sizes of the loops are really too small for "antenna" type effects to happen, I think. The "swr" match must be terrible, and this may be part of why it performs the way it does.
Quote
The titles with these vids includes the term "electric OU"... Are you claiming OU?   (I think not; but would appreciate the clarification of the term "electric OU".  Indeed-are you measuring output power, quantitatively, or could you?)


 PS -- I like your term "photocalorimeter" -- this is what I've been practicing with my calibrated light-box.
Indeed I can measure output power quantitatively, but it requires some definition. Would you like to know the reactive power circulating in the transmitting loop? It is quite large, involving an oscillation at between 500 kHz and 1 MHz of 40-60 v p-p and high peak currents. This is "recycled" accumulated or stored power though, like the spin of a flywheel. The transmitting loop, which is at minimum 2 or 3 strands of solid #12 house wiring, gets perceptibly warm during prolonged operation.
Would you like to know the RF radiated power? It depends on the input voltage of course, and is close to (but below, of course) the input DC power. Would you like to know the power levels received by a receiver? This is the easiest to measure and of course depends greatly on the position of the receiving loop wrt the sender. The brilliance of the bulbs is one indicator, as is the speed and torque of the electric motor when used; less visible is the temperature of the receiving capacitor which does get quite warm during operation. I have not done precise quantitative measurements of the power dissipated in the bulbs using the photocalorimetric method yet, I'm still trying to figure out what some "standard conditions" might be.

Electric OU? What do I mean by placing such a term in the titles of these videos? No, of course I am not claiming that this device, OR ANY OTHER DEVICE that I have examined under that title is presently exhibiting overunity performance.
What do people mean when, on this forum, they title threads with things like "self running" or "game changing OU device to hit market in (last) October" or "consumes less power than it puts out"? Do we think these titles are misleading, or not? Have we ever actually seen a self running device, or one that consumes less than it puts out, or one that's on the market? I don't think so.
In my case, I mean that I believe that my work is relevant to some of the things I see here, relating to the search for electrical devices that do exhibit unusual performance. After all, my devices like this present wireless system, or my various Tesla Coils and magnet motors like the Marinov Slab..... do exhibit _behaviours_ that people here sometimes mistake for OU performance. And of course, when I examine the work of others involving claims of electrical OU, those explorations will generally appear under that heading in my videos.

But you may find the alt.snakeoil Video Reports more interesting in the long run--- although no real snake oil actually makes its appearance in any of them.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
@TK

Don't fret about name calling members.

Even thought this is not @JN relevant, your videos with Tx and Rx effects is just great.

I have questions about your set-up.
So do I. I don't want to hijack this thread, so further discussion of my devices can happen in the comments to the specific videos where I show the interesting effects as I find them. I'll try to answer these questions here though.
Quote

1) On the Tx side,  since your voltage reading does not change (fixed voltage applied) and only your amp readings is increasing in certain conditions. So where is the amps read in series?
The ammeter is in series with the input power coming from the battery/power supply. Lately to stabilize things I've been running on the 12 volt, 5 A-H battery in parallel with the brute force DC PS with the system set to provide a steady 13 volts within the range of 1-5 amps draw. A regulated PS doesn't work so well since the current draw is so variable. I have the two DMMs patched in so that the ammeter is in series just before clipping to the board's power input leads, and the voltmeter is across the battery terminals. There is about 8 inches of twisted pair connecting the battery/PS to the board's input power leads. Scoping the input power shows a pretty steady DC voltage without much disturbance, and the voltage sags with heavy draw.
Quote
2) If the voltage reading is parallel to the Tx circuit feed and the amps is in series with the same location, I would like to know if in your Tx circuit after the feed, is there any full bridge rectifier that is isolating any possible return from your Tx coil back towards the feed side that may be the cause of the increase in amperage reading.

No, there is no rectifier. I think the system is like a somewhat lossy direct connection, so if the receiver draws more power the input power to the transmitter goes up accordingly, just as if they were connected with wires.
Quote
Meaning, is it possible, if this is DC pulsed Tx, that the receiver receives this DC pulsed Tx, hence a signal that goes on and off is exchanged, but when the Tx is on, the Rx is off, and when the Tx is off, the Rx is on. If this is the case then this may explain your Nova mode where when the Tx if off, the Rx is transmitting to the Tx, and when the Tx is on, the Tx is transmitting to the Rx so in essence is it possible that both Tx and Rx are both Tx-ing and RX-ing to each other in a loop that produces the Nova mode.
In one of the vids I show the receiver and the transmitter scoped at the same time. Both signals are nice sinusoids. Frequency and phase do change when SNM happens. The relative phase depends on where you clip the leads to the rx-- or equivalently, which side of the rx loop is facing the tx. If I hold the Rx by the probe leads and rotate the loop 180 degrees, the phase goes with it. So the relative phases depend on the loop orientation, i.e. which "end" of the loop you choose as a reference.
Quote
3) In your video, while you were playing with the third loop on the left of the Tx or between the Tx and the Rx and this increased the Rx fan speed, I could not help but realize you were showing, in a way, @otto's ECD function were all that is missing in yours is a mobius loop were half is Tx and half is Rx that feed each other to increase output. (Maybe a bad flash in the brain but when you were adjusting the third loop distances, @otto's ECD just jumped out at me given his loops had about the same distances.

When @otto was doing his ECD experiments, he had reported that under certain conditions his power supply voltage and amperage readings were just going haywire. I have seen this happen many times myself but we know this is not indicative of a dramatic increase in power consumption but rather the voltage and amperage readings were showing a high return of flyback from the pulsed device.
I am impressed by how LITTLE the meters are influenced by radiations etc. from the device. Its output is a remarkably clean sinusoid at between 500 kHz and about 850 kHz so there is actually very little sidebanding or rf "noise". I see solid voltage and current readings that are predictable, repeatable, and clearly related to receiver position, bulb brightness, etc. In other words, I am believing the meters in this case. This device doesn't disturb the meter performance, and the input side is straight ordinary DC, not even pulsed.
Quote
I guess the base question is...

4) How does the Tx side realize it needs more power as seen by the increase in the amperage readings you are showing under certain conditions? That is a big one to ask.

wattsup

PS: @JouleSeeker

Just saw your post that is in the same line as mine.

Yes, that's a big question and I don't know the answer. I suspect it's the same way that a battery realizes it needs to supply more current when the resistance of the load drops. When we can explain that one, then add in the electromagnetic field and explain being able to transmit that "realization" through space without connecting wires..... we will be happy campers indeed.

Even more intriguing to me is the "SN mode" ... where the brightness of the bulb doesn't vary with distance and the input current goes _up_ with distance as the system maintains the power to the receiver at a constant level even though the distance is changing.

Ok, sorry, I'd really prefer to do detailed discussions of this device on the YT comments to the vids themselves. I just wanted to show that there is some relevant work being done, that perhaps some misconceptions are happening, and that there are lots of possibilities that perhaps haven't been considered.

Thanks for your interest.

(ETA: Sorry, I'll append the schematic here so interested parties don't have to go digging for it. The receiver is just three components in parallel: cap of same capacitance as total in tx, bulb and loop, and for DC output another larger cap and a fast highcurrent diode in series, also paralleled with the receiving cap.)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 26, 2012, 06:41:30 PM
@TK

Thanks for your reply. This is very interesting stuff and getting to know this better is a key to many effects that I have a base logical explanation but do not want to expand on it now since without better knowledge, it may sound like I just walked off a flying saucer with new twin antennae sticking out of my forehead. lol

About discussing this here, it does not really matter since my experimenting with @JNs idea is now put on hold until he gets back from vacations. I see no point is continuing since of course we can make endless changes and variation of his base idea, but this would no longer be pertinent to his fixed recommendation.

One ultimate test with your set-up for me would be to fix the Tx and Rx loops so they cannot move apart from your best found distance and angle. Then this will enable you to lift the complete set-up off the table and turn the complete system in various angles relative to the ground plane to see if there is any change in Tx/Rx strength. This will show if ambient energy orientations can affect the complete system if both Tx and Rx loops do not change their mutual orientations. There is a reason for this madness but it would be so hard to explain in a few lines.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 09:57:48 PM
@TK

Thanks for your reply. This is very interesting stuff and getting to know this better is a key to many effects that I have a base logical explanation but do not want to expand on it now since without better knowledge, it may sound like I just walked off a flying saucer with new twin antennae sticking out of my forehead. lol

About discussing this here, it does not really matter since my experimenting with @JNs idea is now put on hold until he gets back from vacations. I see no point is continuing since of course we can make endless changes and variation of his base idea, but this would no longer be pertinent to his fixed recommendation.

One ultimate test with your set-up for me would be to fix the Tx and Rx loops so they cannot move apart from your best found distance and angle. Then this will enable you to lift the complete set-up off the table and turn the complete system in various angles relative to the ground plane to see if there is any change in Tx/Rx strength. This will show if ambient energy orientations can affect the complete system if both Tx and Rx loops do not change their mutual orientations. There is a reason for this madness but it would be so hard to explain in a few lines.

wattsup
The problem with "here" is that inevitably my own personal troll/stalker will show up and start bombing the thread, and that's not fair to anyone. At least on my YT account he's blocked whenever he shows up under a new username.

I think I may have already done, less formally, the test that you describe.

Unlike my Tesla capacitative wireless power systems, this one is insensitive to surroundings or handling. I can stick big metal wrenches, or even working electronic circuits like the brushless computer fan, in between or even inside the loops with no apparent effect on anything. I think if I put a big conductive sheet of metal in between the rx and tx it might shield it, but the random presence of metal or not, like the toolbox that I have it set up on in the vids, doesn't make a difference that I can tell. The system is fully portable; I have one built into a small briefcase and a few days ago I took it to my electronics component supplier's store, set it up on his glass counter, and blew everybody's minds. You can pick up the transmitter by the loop while it's operating and it makes no difference to anything.

A high-voltage capacitative system would go crazy from that.

This system will _not_ light up neons,CFLs etc the way the SassyClassE SSTC HV capacitative system will. I have thought about lighting a CFL with it but I'd have to use the bulb's own power supply and the wireless receiver's output, not with just the bare bulb alone like the SSTCs will.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2012, 10:08:55 PM
@watts:
However, I do definitely see the point of doing the experiment just as you describe, in a more formal manner with, if possible, actual measurements. If the system can entrain energy from "outside" this could be small and very orientation dependent and my informal jugglings might not notice this very important effect.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: avalon on July 27, 2012, 02:01:23 AM

I can't help thinking about the simularities of your experiment with olne of Don Smith's (one Tx coil - multiple tunes Rx coils).
You mentioned 'above 500kHz' so you wevelength is about 600 meters. Don Smih was using about 36 kHz - that's about 8.3 km.

It would be interesting to check if there is a reletionship between the operting frequency and the distance where the effect is at peak.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 27, 2012, 02:18:06 PM
@TK

What would happen if you took 10 small transformers, each with an Rx loop on the primary, nothing else. Then identify each secondary polarity ends and put the secondaries in series and check the output against your Tx.

The ultimate Tx would be with a variable frequency that you can then hone in on the best for any device. Imagine if you could adjust distance/angle of the Tx/Rx plus the Tx frequency.

But, mostly, I would love to see your Tx run an Rx that drives a JouleTheif(s) as a remote battery replacement. Wonder what the result would be. If it can run a motor, it can run an OU device and permit you to show no batteries in your OU device.

Also, what would happen if the Rx has multi-loops.

He, he.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 27, 2012, 03:22:05 PM
I can't help thinking about the simularities of your experiment with olne of Don Smith's (one Tx coil - multiple tunes Rx coils).
You mentioned 'above 500kHz' so you wevelength is about 600 meters. Don Smih was using about 36 kHz - that's about 8.3 km.

It would be interesting to check if there is a reletionship between the operting frequency and the distance where the effect is at peak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjCc16Mf4lI
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 27, 2012, 04:55:05 PM
That's interesting... but I noticed this video in the list of similar ones.... look at the schematic on the board ! It's the same as mine, almost exactly. A Royer oscillator, in other words. I don't think that's exactly what is driving his transmitter coil, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SpadJ03stqU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SpadJ03stqU#)!

The presenter is at first showing a hybrid capacitative-inductive system involving high voltages. It's pretty neat, but I don't think you can pick up that transmitter by hand while it's operating. Later he shows a system like mine, but I can't tell if he's getting that "sn" effect.
It's interesting that the HV system is transferring power between the aircore resonators over longer range, and then the loop receiver converts that into low voltage high current, but only short range. Neat stuff, I wish I could remember more of the Russian I studied 30 years ago.
In the last part of the video he shows extending the range using multiple loops at apparently no power increase. That's great, a significant result that I had only seen hints of, because I don't have enough _room_ to spread out like that !!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 27, 2012, 06:12:01 PM
Thanks for your replies, TK. 
As regards OU, I would like to see measurement of the input power from the battery, and the output power on the load at the receiver. 

I'm most interested in your SN mode... very curious.  Yes, this sort of "anomalous" behavior is what it's all about IMO.

Off topic again-- I've been thinking about two research communities, the FE community represented here and the Cold Fusion CF --> now Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) community.  No connection, right?  I'm wondering.  I've got a foot in both communities now, and I see similarities in goals -- and some observations.  The LENR community sees excess heat occasionally, but sightings of nuclear signatures are generally missing!

What if the "real" portion of the "LENR" effect is not nuclear in origin at all, but rather anomalous EM energy? (i.e., FE)  that's an hypothesis.


{We need a better name than "free energy" -- too many misleading connotations IMO.  Anomalous ElectroMagnetic Energy (AEME) might be better..}   On further reflection, the EM force has been subsumed with the Weak force, "unified", so that physicists now speak of the "ElectroWeak force" as one force in nature, along with gravity and the strong-nuclear force.  So I come to -- Anomalous ElectroWeak Energy, AEWE, pronounced  "awe".

 There is a big LENR conference in Korea next month, still with "CF" in the title, ICCF17.  Interesting stuff...    Are the two communities actually reading the same book, while speaking different languages and not communicating much at all?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: avalon on July 27, 2012, 07:46:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjCc16Mf4lI
Tha's not it. In your video the guy shows the effect of tuned LC circuits vs untuned. I would be interested to see the frequency-distance relationship (tuned or untuned). In other words, I am interested to see if there is a standing wave effect in the original TKs videos.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on July 27, 2012, 08:10:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SpadJ03stqU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SpadJ03stqU#)!

The presenter is at first showing a hybrid capacitative-inductive system involving high voltages. It's pretty neat, but I don't think you can pick up that transmitter by hand while it's operating. Later he shows a system like mine, but I can't tell if he's getting that "sn" effect.

In this case the representer shows resonant energy transfer by means of magnetic field. Nothing unusual as we have radio waves doing all work in same way :) No scalar things involved.


 There is a big LENR conference in Korea next month, still with "CF" in the title, ICCF17.  Interesting stuff...    Are the two communities actually reading the same book, while speaking different languages and not communicating much at all?

Yes, they are speaking about same things in different abstractions. Oviously, if everyone would speak in same abstracts, the nuclear/oil power source would be already long forgotten.. ;)

In terms on topic, the both 1:1 transformers might be best if they are custom winded with each layer on bifilar mode - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcd_QCLK5w#t=0h12m22s with two primaries and two secondaries and with secondary coils wound opposite than primary coils... What it would give - the concentration of magnetic field into single small space. And amplified magnetic field means amplified induction :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: The Boss on July 27, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Avalon.
 
Using TK's unit, I would suspect that standing (or at least colliding) waves may be had
with 2 TX loops connected in series placed apart, with the RX loop in between.
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 27, 2012, 10:02:09 PM
Well, see, that's the puzzler. The SWR refers to the "antenna match", that is, how much of the power put out by the transistors is actually being radiated by the antenna, versus being reflected back into the apparatus by the impedance mismatch. Generally one wants the radiator... the antenna.... to be an exact quarter-wavelength electrically, of the frequency at which you are operating. This allows the most "forward power" and the highest power "out" wrt the transistor's actual power levels. 
My setup is operating at between 500 kHz and 1 MHz, so a quarter-wavelength is going to be soccer-pitch size. The standing waves have to be long, and with the physical dimensions of the device being so small, the electrical dimensions must be approximated with the cap values and the loop lengths.
Now, between the sender and the receiver.... there is room for real standing waves in that space, at harmonics of the fundamental, and perhaps that range-extension using multiple loops (active? inactive?) has some spacing or size dependence.  Perhaps my SNM has something to do with establishing a true standing wave resonance between the units involved.

There are so many interesting interactions and relationships that can be explored using multiple receivers that anybody building these things should have at least 3 receivers, two similar simple ones and one with DC output for motors, etc. After seeing the range extension effect in the video I linked, I am making several more intermediate loops to play with today.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on July 27, 2012, 10:10:41 PM
@JS: On power measurements.... these can be tricky, in spite of my earlier comments! DC input power in this case is easy. But what about output power?
I could consider the transmission loop to be a current-monitoring resistor of low resistance, like 0.01 ohm, and then, by scoping across the two ends of it, display the voltage drop across that "shunt", arrive at an instantaneous current waveform. And of course I could then multiply that by the voltage levels seen and then average over time, to arrive at an average power level out from the transistors, that could be compared to the input power.

I think the received power is more difficult to measure, though. Just going by the bulb brightness (power dissipated at the bulb) may be misleading.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on July 28, 2012, 09:20:04 AM
hmmmmm  :o


it seems that everything is on its place. :D




getting nearer again indeed  >:(   ::)


dig more buddies  ;D


i salute everyone  :-X




 ;D
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: avalon on July 28, 2012, 08:09:31 PM
Avalon.
 
Using TK's unit, I would suspect that standing (or at least colliding) waves may be had
with 2 TX loops connected in series placed apart, with the RX loop in between.
I agree. I also suspect that a properly constructed waveguide might increase the effect significantly.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 30, 2012, 11:03:32 AM
Nice to see some experiments going on.
 
Look at the two trafo experiment. It showed that input in the first trafo does not change when load is added. If you have watt meter then put it in the mains. No matter what stuff is connected after it that consumes power should not affect. If the coil in the second trafo is connected in wrong way there will be power consumed in the input while output has no power. If you cannot see this effect then something is different compared to my test setup.
 
Capacitor is needed only if idle current should be bring further down. It can be difficult to get it right and if C is off then your results will go down. I had some caps and I was lucky to tune the trafo closer to optimum.
 
Do not use two different primaries in same core connected in series, only one. I tested with two cores so that the coils of the second trafo were across two toroids and efficiency dropped. The nanoperm cores made some funny rattling noise which means that there were created new frequencies which varied all the time. This noise I learned from my previous testing when I still had working meter. This makes me think that two primaries in the same core is also not a good idea.
 
Use sine wave, any other waveform will not replicate my experiment. We need to replace the signal that comes in with one generated in the second trafo and nature is not very good at producing square waves.
Using ratio other than 1:1 will not replicate my experiment.
Using coils with low self inductance will not replicate my experiment. There has to be lots and lots of wire when using grid frequency, or you need to have good luck with C.
 
My nanoperm cores were small, 63 mm outer diameter and permeability of 80000. They had 280 meters of 0.31 mm wire for primary and secondary, I used 63 strand Litz wire so very easy to make. When used as normal trafo it could deliver about 100 watts. The idle current was too high though, around 80 mA when 280 meter coils were connected together. So I started to wind new one, this time I try to put 400 meters of wire on both sides using plain wire. First unwind the litz wire, then wind 10 meters at a time. Very very  time consuming. Been doing that for the past two weeks now, little by little, almost complete.
 
I see there are some experimenters here with access to signal generator, I want to propose a simple test:
1. Wind two sets of wires of same length around ferrite toroid.
2. Feed pure sine wave into one coil and increase the frequency until current drops to zero. This will be the operating frequency. If you cannot reach this level then add more wire until this condition is reached.
3. Connect the coils in bucking mode as shown, use the frequency found in step 2 and begin from low voltage.
4. Put some load and observe the current going on in primary. If possible use same load as current limiter on primary side in case something goes wrong. You dont want to burn your equipment.
5. Crank up the voltage, carefully.
 
Understand, output does not affect input. What does it mean ? On the input side you have charge banging back and forth which is reduced only by coil resistance, the resonance condition. Each bang creates copy of it on the output side which you can use. Since output does not affect input, input is not slowed down and power is not consumed. Input side is happily running at full speed while output side is giving out power. Now I am using 50 Hz frequency and I suspect that with 400+400 meter toroid I can light up 150 watt halogen lamp without consuming any real power, I just need the pressure. Now, imagine frequency is cranked up to 1000 times. Will I get the charge 50000 * 2 times per second and 150 * 1000 watts out ? I think so but I dont have the equipment to move to this level.
 
I do not write this stuff to keep me warm. I am looking for help to explain/replicate why output does not affect input and then improve on that. Also, why the power is close to zero at N line while there is power in the output of second trafo ? If you connect two lamps in series between L and N they are both lit to same brightness. When connected as shown, why there is power in the lamp at output of trafo but there is no power in the lamp near the N line ? I dont think this is normal.
 
I do not ask for people to go and buy lots of expensive stuff, there are already others that have correct equipment to do a simple test that will take atmost one hour of their time. If you can do this test and it does not work then lets debug it and improve this thing together, this should be R&D thread.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 30, 2012, 01:37:17 PM
Steve/wattsup, how did you measure the idle current in primary ? It occurred to me that maybe this is the difference if watt meter is used. It shows 2 watts consumed by coil resistance, not what is going through the coil. I measured it with light bulb like this:
 
L - primary coil of trafo - light bulb - N
 
There was very little light on the bulb, current is below 40 mA. When two coils were connected to get it in OU mode then this went further down. This happened with iron core and with nanoperm core. I need over 2*280 meters of 0.31 mm wire when using 80000 perm core to get it in this mode. When using iron core which has 5000 permeability there needs to be more wire. This makes me think that maybe trafos that you guys are using are not suitable for replication without tuning capacitor.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 30, 2012, 09:29:27 PM
Jack,


its not about peoples' trafos and your trafos. its just what you say does not work.
One major mistake is that idle current - choked by impedance - could not be similar or even less when the bulbs is run per your configuration. No way per my view.


And yes, the idea of running a choke with an inverter (or signal generator sine wave) of adjustable large frequency till achieving choking inductance (almost null current) for given voltage, makes sense assuming the basic concept worked in plain 50 Hz iron trafos.


we have not seen anything so far contradicting enstablished electrical views my friend :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on July 31, 2012, 12:36:53 AM
Jack, I personally think you may be on to something which is why I am on this topic. Can you be a bit clearer in your instructions please? For example you ask us to wind two coils on a toroid. I am sure you know what you mean, but there are many different ways to wind a coil. ie bifilar? cw-ccw, twisted pair, litz etc etc. Really, a picture of what you mean would help us enormously.
I am not using pure sign wave, but I noticed in one experiment that the transistor producing ac started to smoke! lol. Fortunately it recovered later.
So something is happening, I am not sure what yet. Please.... clearer instructions, it will save us all time.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on July 31, 2012, 03:47:00 AM
Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement >:(


 :-X


 ;D


 ;)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on July 31, 2012, 08:51:52 AM
The original picture was missing a dot to note the starting point, that was fixed in later pictures. I cannot make that picture any more clearer.
 
The iron trafo version had two separate coils winded on a boppin. The nanoperm version was made using litz wire, just one winding until space run out. Then I connected individual threads to form two separate coils. So it does not matter if coils themselves are separate or interleaved. Also winding direction does not matter as you can always swap the other coil to get polarities right. The 400 meter version is not ready yet, that is made using two different coils on opposite sides so it is like the iron trafo version.
 
For higher frequencies I think two wires side by side would reduce L which might mean you can use higher frequency and get more power. Also thicker wire should be better.
 
Only thing that is needed is to get the coil in high impedance state and the good thing is that you dont need caps to do it. This is achieved with frequency, permeability and wire length. I can only play with grid frequency which means lots of wire. This would be the ultimate free energy device, simple to build and low cost.
 
If you have a driver ready but it puts out square waves, then put that through one 1:1 trafo to get sine wave and use that towards second trafo to get the same effect I see. Square waves might work, but sine wave is perfect for this one.
If still unclear, just ask questions and I try to answer, and there are no dumb questions. It is important to get the misunderstandings out of the way before you proceed.
 
Your mosfets burning could be because of square wave driver, you get higher kicks back as replacement is not perfect. Working principle of this setup is to replace the feeding signal with same signal so the impedance does not change. High impedance means high ohms which prevents current flow from AC source and this is what we want to keep. Sine wave cannot replace square wave, they are in same phase but there is something happening when square wave and sine wave occur in the same coil.
 
When you get this right and begin testing, start from low voltage. Energy is taken from the magnetic field created by 'something' when current goes in a wire. If you take too much, this 'something' might show unusual behaviour like cooling of the environment or reduction of weight or something else. I am not saying that this happens with this, but it is always better to start from low power and gradually increase.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on July 31, 2012, 09:31:40 AM
@Jack --   Glad to see you back!  just saw your latest posts.   It's late here now... let me read your posts more thoroughly and get back to you, tomorrow.
 - Steve
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on July 31, 2012, 07:28:11 PM
@Jack --   Glad to see you back!  just saw your latest posts.   It's late here now... let me read your posts more thoroughly and get back to you, tomorrow.
 - Steve

Ditto that for me as well.

But I have to say that using two standard isolated transformers with laminated iron, using only one primary/secondary per, making the connections in every which way possible, nothing was evident, loaded - amps go up, unloaded - amps go down and adding various capacitors  trying various locations only increases amps draw.

I have also made connections in many irregular ways with some pretty "freaky" results but all of that seems to be just standard expected outputs under those conditions.

I do also realize that the connection method you show does imply a really out of the ordinary method and given that this is driven by simple mains 60hz sine wave, one would have expected a straight short circuit condition, but no, it does provide output to a bulb although not OU. Still it is interesting.

It would be advisable that you measure your primary/secondary coil impedance, resistance, and let us know this vital information as without it, we would be continuously shooting in the dark. hichic.

Also, 0.31mm wire is around 28awg. There would be no advantage for using litz wire is such a case. In your description of winding, I am getting the picture that you wound 280 meters per primary in 10 meter lengths. Do you mean that you made 28 sections of 10 meters, wound one on top of the other and all paralleled or put in series.

I think the best choice would be to hire a toroid company to d the winds as per a specific build spec. I know @stivep has a toroid winder that he just got working but wonder which size toroid you would need to wind 400 meters of 28 awg wire. So no wonder ours will not work because the resistance of 400 meters at 28 awg will be pretty high compared to what they use to make these off-the-shelf standard transformers.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on July 31, 2012, 09:38:41 PM
Hey wattsup,


indeed in that arrangement (maybe dig out from an old electric art book) we have current multiplication at an expense of voltage drop . In the original arrangment, i theorize (although not theory at all) that current at best is doubled and voltage halved across resistor (bulb).

If you0 had a triffilar 1:1:1 isolated transformer you could achieve i supoose current x 3 at best at an expense of x 1/3 voltage across bulb. Although novel arrangement in the eye of contemporary electricians, i tested and (although in an non similar setup ) and can see no magic. :)

Show us some magic.. Jack!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 01, 2012, 06:07:59 AM
  On this end, I put together another build of Jack's, using this time two 1:1 toroidal trafos (photo).  Like Wattsup, I have tried various things -- but the best I have been able to do so far with off-the-shelf matched trafos is about 88-95% efficiency = Pout/Pin.  I find that as long as I use CONSISTENT  methods for input as for output, the ratio Pout/Pin is about the same between methods.

  I've learned a lot (I think) taking measurements by various means.  The photocalorimeter I'm using (a fancy name for a light box) has been very helpful in discerning when output power REALLY goes up or down.

   It is a fun build, educational -0- thanks, Jack, and hopefully you can tell us more pointers.  Wattsup mentioned some questions -- I would ask just how you measure Pinput and Poutput; its always good to re-check those measurements. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 01, 2012, 10:48:35 AM
Resistance of coil I used in iron trafo (5000 permeability) was 165 ohms, very thin wire, 0.0x mm. Coil is about 10 mm wide so it is very dense.

Resistance of 280 meter Litz nanoperm (80000 permeability) is about 45 ohms. I cut 10 meter piece of 63 strand litz and winded it on core. When one layer was complete I continued on top of previous. I think I got 5 layers this way until I ran out of space. In the end I had 63 10 meter coils and after build was complete I got two coils each formed from 28 10 meter coils in series, 280 meters. I used litz only to make winding job easier, no other purpose. Litz trafo looks messy with 63 wires sticking out, my 4 year old kid called it the tree: 'Daddy, are you making those trees again ?' I made 5 of those but now I have only one left as I needed to test other stuff, not much success with those though.

Resistance of 400 meter nanoperm trafo is about 68 ohms, outer diameter of the core is about 63 mm, inner 48 mm. With coil on it inner diameter is about 12-15 mm. I got it ready yesterday but did not had enough time to play with it. I got 150 watt halogen to light up in normal trafo mode, not sure if I got full brightness but it is pretty damn hot as my desk starts to smell bad. 10 meter lemgths are in series separated in two different sides. Entire trafo weighs 899 g/ 1.978 lbs, plain core weighs 186 g/0.410 lbs. The idle current of one 400 meter coil is still too high when compared to iron version, it can light up 40 watt bulb. When I connect those 400 meter coils together, idle current without load is such that 1 watt led light flickers, 7 watt energy saving gas lamp puts out no light. This is good enough but not perfect, it is better than 280 meter nanoperm as I thought it would be.
 
I cannot measure impedance, but it must be pretty high if it can block 25 amp mains that spits out 220 volts below 1 watt when two coils are connected together. With iron trafo one coil is enough to block it.
 
With these specs (is there enough ?), how does your trafos compare with mine ?
 
As I dont have any meter I measured the 2 trafo version using 40 watt bulbs. With no load I got dimm light on primary side, below 10 watts for sure. With 40 watt bulb as load on secondary I got it up to 30 watts, no change on light level on primary side. When first trafo was iron and second was litz nanoperm light on primary side went down and output bulb was brighter. With parallel cap in the second trafo light on primary side disappeared and output bulb was still brighter. This made me think I have something usefull going on.
 
Steve, I see your trafos are about the same size as mine, what is the resistance of your coils and permeability of the core ? Did you try reversing the coil that is parallel with load in the second trafo ? You should see major difference. What about idle currents without load ? If it can light up bulb (in series with those two coils in second trafo) without load then it will not work too well. I suspect that this is the problem now, impedance is too low and input power bypasses load and goes via coils. This will certainly ruin the OU effect.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 01, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Did some testing with 2*400 meter nanoperm.
 
Normal trafo mode, I put 170 watts worth of bulbs on primary side, 150 watt halogen lights up on secondary side but not too much light. Primary side show bright light on every bulb, normal trafo effect. If I bypass the bulbs with thick wire I got more light on output but there a lots of amps going as the primary gets hot to touch. Core seems to saturate and it is unable to deliver this power to output. I am unable to see any light in 300 watt halogen in this mode.

Generator mode, same amount of bulbs on primary side and no light in any bulb, not even a faint glow. 150 watt halogen is brighter on load side when compared to normal trafo mode. When I bypass lamps this time, halogen gets brighter but there are no amps flowing like in normal trafo mode. 300 watt halogen lights up but it starts to draw current as there occurs faint glow in the bulbs. So if load takes more power than core can create only then it starts to suck power from the mains. With two trafo setup this does not occur as there is trafo infront which limits the draw.
 
Both nanoperm versions I have are not good enough to be used as the first trafo because of high idle current. Only the iron trafo is good. With iron trafo in front and 400 meter nanoperm as the second there is no light on primary side and bright light on output.
 
If someone has metglass high perm C core then experiments would be much easier at grid frequency as you dont need to wind toroids.
 
Only thing left for me would be to buy watt meter and measure what comes in. If output waveform is rectified sine then most likely it would give false readings for output power, so does not make much sense to measure it like this. And DSO and stuff like that are out of my reach. This is low power and I am not interested in getting few hundred watts for free, high frequency is the next step. This would require signal generator and oscilloscope which I dont have. So for now I am relying on forum members to investigate this further and I have put information what could be done next.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Qwert on August 01, 2012, 02:59:06 PM
Resistance of coil I used in iron trafo (5000 permeability) was 165 ohms, very thin wire, 0.0x mm. ...

Yeah, that's really thin. I would say, that's no wire at all. I know, that's not a mistake; it's within this range, but anyway, somewhat more specific...

Edit: sorry, I wrote the above just after reading the first sentence. In the later it explains satisfactorily.

Edit: since I already interrupted this precious thread' spirit, I want to use it for my (maybe not my own) purpose: somewhere within last two or three months in another thread I posted my idea to try an idea described in this document: Otto's TPU notes (http://www.overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/457/)
Since it requires using a trafo and some other equipment which I do not possess, may somebody try this? I consider to finance (from my frugal resources) the additional (pretty expensive) material used in this project, for one or two serious guys.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 01, 2012, 08:43:50 PM
If you are winding up custom 1:1 trafos, you might try this winding configuration and see results  in Jack's circuit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcd_QCLK5w#t=0h12m22s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcd_QCLK5w#t=0h12m22s)

The main difference there between Litz wire and bifilar layer is - the magnetic field concentration and resistance removal when each layer is winded on bifilar mode. It is like forcing two magnets stick with same plorarity ends (you might try this and realize magnetic field configuration and strength on junction point and from sides). Also if you will wind primary on bifilar layers mode, your secondary should be on side  of primary not on top. On toroid it would be half toroid with primary and second half with secondary.

Would be very interesting to see results on this... :)

P.S> In http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg330683/#msg330683 (http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg330683/#msg330683) I explained theoretical part of it.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 02, 2012, 08:03:36 AM
When I disconnected the load, the current drawn by the primary of the first trafo dropped to zero, 0.00, on two different meters.  So that's good.

 I tried reversing the coil that is parallel with the load (load in place, 40 W bulb) -- and the current draw went WAY up on the input trafo; from about 0.14A @ 100 V to over an amp.  I turned it off quickly.  A bit of a mystery there (to me at least).

Resistance of coil I used in iron trafo (5000 permeability) was 165 ohms, very thin wire, 0.0x mm. ...

Resistance of 280 meter Litz nanoperm (80000 permeability) is about 45 ohms.
Steve, I see your trafos are about the same size as mine, what is the resistance of your coils and permeability of the core ? Did you try reversing the coil that is parallel with load in the second trafo ? You should see major difference. What about idle currents without load ? If it can light up bulb (in series with those two coils in second trafo) without load then it will not work too well. I suspect that this is the problem now, impedance is too low and input power bypasses load and goes via coils. This will certainly ruin the OU effect.

Data sheet on the toroidal trafos I used is here: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70218083  but there is not much detailed data.
I measured the resistances as follows:

Primary:  21.3 ohms
Secondary:  35.9 ohms, which is a bit surprising since these are 1:1 transformers, but evidently a smaller-gauge wire is used on the secondary.

I have an inductance meter, but it only goes up to 20 Henry -- and both the primary and the secondary exceed this value.  I doubt the cores have high permeability; but have found no data on this.



Where you have wound your OWN trafos, Jack, I would say this may very well explain the difference in overall results.  For someone to replicate your exact build would take quite a few details from you I should think.   I would be willing to bring my equipment to you for some testing if you would like, including the photocalorimeter.  I would be glad to test it for input and output power, considering it a "black box" device if you wish.  But you've been generous with circuits and information, so it is more than that already!   PM me if you think this might be workable for you.  I'm traveling by car next week; if you're anywhere along the path, that would be great I think.  Just an offer; zero arm-twisting.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 02, 2012, 08:59:24 AM
This means you have the same effect I have, thats good. When coil is wrong way all the power goes via coils and bypasses load, hence no power at output but power is sucked from input and wasted. When I used 40 watt bulbs in testing I got the same effect, primary side was bright and no light on output. I did not try it without bulbs, good to know that when coil is wrong way there is major current draw occurring from source.
 
But there is not enough wire in the primary, this explains the difference. Also my quess is that permeability of your core is much less than 80000, it is most likely ordinary ferrite below 10000. The iron trafo I used was rated 20 watts, when I took two primaries and combined them into one I got output well above 20 watts in normal trafo mode also. Iron trafo weighs much less 0.4 kg, but there is 8 times as much resistance in the coils compared to toroid you are using. Also all the wire is within 10 mm while toroid is wound all over. I have read somewhere that turns per inch matters when creating magnetic field which makes much sense.
 
What is the idle current of just one trafo alone with no load ? It must be high enough to light a 40 watt bulb if put in series with primary.
 
I am located in Finland so unless you have a flying car I don't think we could meet, thanks for the offer though. The 'device' is too simple so there is no need to do any difficult stuff like travelling. It is just a matter of getting the parameters correct and debugging. I also thought about just sending those trafos to you for testing but I am not sure if the package would pass customs, especially if I mark the contens as 'free energy device' lol.
 
T-1000, I think you have access to decent signal generator and some ferrite. Any chance you could spend few hours and give this a try using higher frequency ? I feel like a bee doing dancing moves in front of the nest. The best dancer gets the attention of other bees, damn do I have to learn the Jackson moves or what ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 02, 2012, 09:29:11 AM
Steve, I spotted one more difference in your toroid. The coils are unequal in length ! You could try swapping the coils so that hotline goes first to secondary of the toroid. I saw some effect with nanoperm with unequal coils but in my case one coil was only 20 % longer than the other.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 02, 2012, 12:23:33 PM
Steve, one more thing. You are using 40 watt bulb but the trafo is rated at 23 watts or so. If load exceeds what core can produce then it begins to draw from the source. If you have lower rated bulbs then try those. Put watt meter in mains, then connect just one trafo, use current limiter bulb just in case something goes wrong. Without load consumption should be close to zero which you have already observed. With load below 25 watts consumption should be less when compared to same load in normal trafo mode.
 
Remember that the output waveform could be rectified sine and watt meter at output could give false reading so better to measure consumption from the source.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 02, 2012, 03:32:06 PM
@all

I had purchased the following two current transformers for the toroid cores, mainly to eventually make two SM style center bucking coils. But I think they would be good candidates for winding a coil per half core.

This two CTs are Simpson Model 01297.
You can see it on page 63 of their nice pdf catalog.
http://www.simpsonelectric.com/uploads/File/PanelMeterCatalog_Jan09.pdf

The Nanoperm core in the sizes around 4" diameter are somewhat expensive...
http://www.magnetec.us/shop/details.php?id=94&kategorie=7&main_kat=&start=0&nr=

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 02, 2012, 10:19:08 PM
You took apart a precision Simpson current transformer just for the cores?

This makes my heart hurt.

http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Inductors.html
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on August 03, 2012, 12:03:20 AM
....
I measured the resistances as follows:

Primary:  21.3 ohms
Secondary:  35.9 ohms, which is a bit surprising since these are 1:1 transformers, but evidently a smaller-gauge wire is used on the secondary.

I have an inductance meter, but it only goes up to 20 Henry -- and both the primary and the secondary exceed this value.  I doubt the cores have high permeability; but have found no data on this.

....

Hi Steven,

The higher number of turns in the secondary coil(s) comes from keeping the 1:1 voltage ratio at full load and compensate for copper and core losses. I wrote about this for you here:
http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/msg328931/#msg328931 (http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/msg328931/#msg328931)  probably you did not notice it.  However, the difference between the primary and the secondary coils in their DC resistances seems rather high in your trafos case, do the secondary coils in parallel provide the normal 117-120V AC output when loaded (and the primaries are also in parallel).

To measure the coils inductance, try to connect the primary coils in parallel and also the secondary coils in parallel, this should bring the inductance below the 20 Henry range on your L meter.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 03, 2012, 04:49:46 AM
You took apart a precision Simpson current transformer just for the cores?

This makes my heart hurt.

http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Inductors.html

@TK

No I did not take them apart yet since I have them. I just opened the cover. That's why I am posting it here to see if it is a smart move or not to risk. I get what you mean about the precision.

Otherwise, let's cut through the chase and get some NanoPerms. hehe

Now when I search their web site.......
http://www.magnetec.de/en/nanopermr-products/

I am puzzled as to why there is no mention of their cores being used in isolated transformers. Mainly for chokes and current transformers but no mention of isolated or step/up/down transformers.

What model choice is the other question?????????
Something around the 4" (100mm) diameter range.

wattsup

Added:

My standard transformer X coils are 2.2 ohms and the H coils are 1.5 ohms. I had taken for granted that all the coils were identical. Seeing that, I connected the H side to the AC, since in my last trials the X side was on the AC. No difference in final results. So measuring the resistance or asking what the resistance of the coils are before buying them is a smart way to try and find the right ones.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 03, 2012, 08:21:36 AM
Yesterday I got me a watt meter, I wanted to see how much that 150 watt halogen uses. I realised I can do comparison so that I measure only what I take from the mains and just check out brightness of light.

First I measured the 2*400 meter nanoperm in normal trafo mode. Meter showed 87 watts in primary side and I got some light out. I estimate the efficiency of the trafo to be atmost 90 % to be on the safe side. In generator mode I got 37 watts going in primary side and halogen is significantly brighter, somewhere between 100 - 120 watts. When I used smaller 40 watt load the watt meter does not act realiably, it can only measure above 5 watts. Based on my earlier testing I know power consumption can be get close to zero, milliwatt range.

I also tried 300 watt halogen. In normal trafo mode primary used 92 watts and halogen had just a faint glow. In generator mode I got plenty of light, enough to burn the damn desk again and watt meter showed 76 watts.
 
Seems that this core can create about 70 watts by itself, just an estimate and not exact figure. How I would love to feed this bugger with higher frequency and see how much more efficient it would be. Idle power of one coil is way too high, I think it was close to 60 watts. If I could get this down below one watt using for example 500 Hz then I would get 10 times more power out with better efficiency too.
 
wattsup, I think it is better if you get metglass instead of nanoperm unless you have access to toroid winding machine. magnetec says they have cores with permeability of 200000 but when I tried to get them I did not even get a decent reply if they are for sale or not. If metglass has one million permeability cores then that is worth a try.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 03, 2012, 11:52:38 AM
I found nice DC/DC controller, it outputs squarewave if smoothing caps are removed and this could be fed in first trafo to make sine out of it. You can set oscillations from 1 kHz to 1000 kHz, there is a design example that shows how to make output 24 volts at 2 amps from 12 volt input at 600 kHz with schematics and equations how values are obtained.

Device costs less than one dollar, maybe it could be used as a driver.

http://www.ti.com/product/tps40210#feature (http://www.ti.com/product/tps40210#feature)
 
There are many others and did not check them out. Just made a search for a device that can output 220 volts and only this one came up. 100/220 volts would be nice to have directly as you dont need third core to step it down. Or maybe a proper voltage divider circuit could be used, dunno.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 03, 2012, 02:49:51 PM
I tried to determine what is the efficiency of the big nanoperm trafo in normal trafo mode but I was unable to do that. Damn watt meter showed 0 watts at output all the time, seems that it needs L and N lines before it works. Then I measured the idle power which was actually 134 watts and this means that light comparison with halogens is not fair. There is OU but figures are most likely somewhat off in halogen test. It is nice though that when in generator mode the idle power drops below one watt from 134 watts.
 
Finally I measured again 40 watt load and bulb was bright as usual, it is certainly above 20 watts and most likely below 30 watts. Watt meter showed 0 and 6 watts alternatively on the grid side. So still looking good though I made a mistake with trafo efficiency estimation, I now think its efficiency is below 50 %. There is still room for more wire, maybe I wind some more, not sure about that.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 03, 2012, 03:12:58 PM
There is EVM board available,
 
http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sluu308/sluu308.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sluu308/sluu308.pdf)
 
costs 49 dollars, output 2 amps 24 volts at 600 kHz, well in nanoperm range. Makes one think...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 03, 2012, 07:35:24 PM
There is EVM board available,
 
http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sluu308/sluu308.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sluu308/sluu308.pdf)
 
costs 49 dollars, output 2 amps 24 volts at 600 kHz, well in nanoperm range. Makes one think...
Output is 24 volts, 2 amps DC, with a small ripple. The 600 kHz is the internal switching frequency.

Makes one think.... indeed.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 03, 2012, 07:42:50 PM
I read the specs and you can take the square wave as output via one pin, if I understood the spec correctly. Of course if it is only DC then it is of no use. I have a hardware guy who can double check this for me if I want to try this out. First I would need some other gear which I can possibly get for free for limited time. If I can put 600 kHz via nanoperm, then I will consider this EVM if hardware guy says there is square wave output. I also need to check first how the square wave behaves when it goes via nanoperm core. If I would see clean sine wave at output then there is chance EVM could work here. Plot thickens as new twists occur... I will keep you posted of my progess, if any.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 03, 2012, 10:05:35 PM
The basic logic behind all of this should be inverted and I think this is what Jack is experiencing.  The maximum power consumption without load and minimal consumption with load because the load itself is what is cause of increasing impedance in primary coils of transformers...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 03, 2012, 10:51:47 PM
I read the specs and you can take the square wave as output via one pin, if I understood the spec correctly. Of course if it is only DC then it is of no use. I have a hardware guy who can double check this for me if I want to try this out. First I would need some other gear which I can possibly get for free for limited time. If I can put 600 kHz via nanoperm, then I will consider this EVM if hardware guy says there is square wave output. I also need to check first how the square wave behaves when it goes via nanoperm core. If I would see clean sine wave at output then there is chance EVM could work here. Plot thickens as new twists occur... I will keep you posted of my progess, if any.
I think the pin output is just the oscillator output not a power output.
You'd probably be better off constructing a little signal generator of your own, which you can do for under 50 bucks, and then also making something like Groundloop's H-bridge to drive with it, at whatever frequency (up to about 1.5 MHz) you like. This will give you a lot more flexibility in the long run than a 2amp DC-DC converter will.

http://www.8085projects.info/post/555-based-wave-signal-generator-circuit.aspx

groundloop's h-bridge is posted in this forum somewhere. It's simple neat and effective, all you need is the driving oscillator and the main power source.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 03, 2012, 10:57:54 PM
T-1000, I think you have access to decent signal generator and some ferrite. Any chance you could spend few hours and give this a try using higher frequency ? I feel like a bee doing dancing moves in front of the nest. The best dancer gets the attention of other bees, damn do I have to learn the Jackson moves or what ?

I only have http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-01-5MHz-DDS-Function-Signal-Generator-Module-Wave-New-/270864768941?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f10cc5fad at the moment and http://www.vellemanusa.com/products/view/?country=us&lang=enu&id=522377
No arbitrary signal amplifier unfortunately.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 04, 2012, 05:17:25 AM
Hey what about using two of these buggers.
http://www.metglas.com/products/xfmr.htm
hehe

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 04, 2012, 08:25:10 AM
Hey what about using two of these buggers.
http://www.metglas.com/products/xfmr.htm (http://www.metglas.com/products/xfmr.htm)
hehe

wattsup

Impressive, Wattsup, but the efficiency is not QUITE high enough:
Quote
Produced by Korea’s Cheryong using Metglas-Based Wound Cores Manufactured by Woojin
32 tonnes (Approx)
3.7 m x 3.95 m x 3. 5 m (W x D x H); IEC 60076
Efficiency 99.31 %

Needs to improve by just 1% or 2%, then that would be quite interesting. 

I've taken some further measurements -- but it's very late here (after midnight); busy family day.  I will post these measurements in the morning.

Thanks, Jack (especially)!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 04, 2012, 04:18:56 PM
I have done further measurements one of the two "identical" toroidal coils shown below.  The inductance L shows variation with frequency of the measuring device (MCP BR2822) which I borrowed from a neighbor, who is also a freedom-energy researcher and very supportive.  I also re-did measurements with my home LCR meter (CE 4070L); and found it gave results less than 20 Henries also.  (So there must have been some error in the previous attempt; sorry.)

So here we go:
Home LCR meter:
Primary coils (2):    1.4 H each; in parallel gives 1.4H
Secondary coils (2): 1.8 H each; in parallel gives 1.8H
 
This surprised me a bit, parallel 2 coils giving the same L as one individual coil (in the pair), so then I went to the neighbor's fancy MCP meter, which measures as a function of FREQuency (lowest being 100 Hz) as follows:

Neighbor's LCR meter  @100 Hz: Primary coils @100Hz (2):    7.2 H each; in parallel gives 7.2H Secondary coils @100Hz (2): 8.5 H each; in parallel gives 8.6H

Neighbor's LCR meter  @1KHz:  Primary coils (2):    1.9 H each; in parallel gives 1.9H  Secondary coils (2): 2.4 H each; in parallel gives 2.4H

So we see that the sum of L's in parallel gives about the same L as an individual coil, and the inductance varies with frequency. 

Now for the resistances. 
Home LCR meter:
 Primary coils (2):    41.8 ohms each; in parallel gives 21.4 ohms
 Secondary coils (2): 69.7 and 71.9 ohms; in parallel gives 36.o ohms

Neighbor's LCR meter  @100 Hz:
Primary coils @100Hz (2):    1.4Kohms each; in parallel gives 1.4Kohms
 Secondary coils @100Hz (2):  1.65 Kohms each; in parallel gives 1.6 Kohms

It appears that the "resistance" measured at 100 Hz actually has a component from the inductance in the coils; but I was using the resistance ( ohms) function on the meter.
In any case, @100 Hz, the measured resistances are approximately the same.

Given the observed variations in R and L with frequency, it is clear to me why we need to make empirical measurements of Jack's set-up with various frequencies -- just as Jack strongly suggested.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 04, 2012, 06:17:54 PM
Your results are quite strange.

Inductances in parallel are "supposed" to follow the same rule as resistors in parallel:  1/Ltotal = 1/L1 + 1/L2 + ... + 1/Ln

And in series,  they simply add. Have you tested your coils in series to see if that result is "strange" as well? And what happens if you reverse the connections of one of the parallel coils?

As you are finding out, measuring inductances can be problematic. The very best way is to use the inductor in a resonant tank circuit with a known capacitance and measure the resonant frequency and work backwards from there.

It's possible that the "huge" inductances approaching 2 H are skewing your results, but I don't know the characteristics of the meters you are using.

Many single-frequency meters use 900 Hz as the measurement frequency and this usually will give values that are close to the manufacturer's stated value at low inductances. 2 H isn't a low inductance, though.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 04, 2012, 06:31:43 PM
@JouleSeeker

Thanks for your measurements. Curious to say the least.

The point in efficiency is that those numbers 99.31% for that big Metglas unit then compare it to your toroid that states 87%, but both given under what may be considered standard operating conditions (SOC). I would suspect that @JN's transformer will show maybe about 99% just like the Metgals one under SOC. The idea is to find the highest percentage under SOC to then use it under the rather non SOC method to achieve OU. I mean even if you wind your own transformer using whatever, we should not be seeing above 100% under SOC.

When a transformer core becomes biased (in one direction) and it it is followed with a biasing in the reverse direction, that then creates extreme in the state of core change that imparts to the secondary. When the setup is fed AC to primary, secondary and bulb load, the bulb load cannot act like a trampoline (I am watching the olympics where Canada just won the Gold in trampoline - YaMan).

In the @JN scheme of things, the first primary is rather standard method except that the load of the first is not a bulb but the second transformer and the bulb combined via a semi-shorting across the bulb load. This will generate a whole host of harmonics inside the second transformer that will reverberate back to the first transformer.

Now in the case of using standard laminated transformers like my last trials, seems like the core is simply not reactive enough to pick up those harmonics and reverse reverberations in order to create a more havoc stricken extreme change in bias. The core just ignores those effects. To a lesser degree the ferrite cores are doing the same thing and this is why when I did the test with my two toroidal Hammond coils, the results were far better then with the laminated coils.

So logic would have it that with a core of higher permeability, could also mean higher sensitivity to those other harmonic and reverberate effects that is run under the right conditions will provide or favor a combining effect and not a cancellation effect.

So all this time up till now just to learn that the core is the key. This is a good confirmation to now realize not only for this device but for other devices but also bad to know because this cancels the potential for standard transformers to be used and calls for the more expensive and more specialty nature of using more exotic cores.

An added realization is that if the @JN method can work with cores, it may also work with air core designs like if you simply used a four individual layer air coil and work out the connections to simulate the @JN circuit.

So now we go core hunting. lol

But before that, let's take this logic one step further. If standard transformers do not have the inherent attributes to work with the @JN circuit, then maybe the circuit should be modified to accommodate the cores "stiffness" or "lower reactivity" by combining in series between the two transformers with two more transformer that do have the reactivity.

See here this ready made choke coil that is using Metglas cores. Yes, unfortunately they only have one coil but if put in series with the two isolating transformers (IT), maybe this could act as a go-between that has the reactive skills to exchange more effects between the two ITs.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Valab-4-5H-500ma-Filter-Choke-Amorphous-Metglass-Double-C-core-UTC-Transformer-/251121566211?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a78030203

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on August 04, 2012, 10:02:55 PM
Your results are quite strange.

Inductances in parallel are "supposed" to follow the same rule as resistors in parallel:  1/Ltotal = 1/L1 + 1/L2 + ... + 1/Ln
And in series,  they simply add. Have you tested your coils in series to see if that result is "strange" as well? And what happens if you reverse the connections of one of the parallel coils?


I have also noted the fallacy of the LC meters concerning those iron core transformers. Mine gives a 1/10 measurment in comparison to real impedance that comes at 50 hz.


and yes.. parallel inductances are like resistors. but not wound on same core (closed magnetic circuit) of course. .e. equal inductances in parallel config wound on same core have equal inducactance as each one. (try checking it with a bifillar coil)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 04, 2012, 10:22:29 PM

I have also noted the fallacy of the LC meters concerning those iron core transformers. Mine gives a 1/10 measurment in comparison to real impedance that comes at 50 hz.


and yes.. parallel inductances are like resistors. but not wound on same core (closed magnetic circuit) of course. .e. equal inductances in parallel config wound on same core have equal inducactance as each one. (try checking it with a bifillar coil)

That last part is interesting, thanks. It makes sense too, like simply using a thicker wire for a single winding on the core.
What about series connection for coils on the same core.... add inductances like normal?


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MileHigh on August 04, 2012, 10:45:58 PM
Also note that whether two inductors are in parallel or in series, each coil is "broadcasting" its magnetic flux pattern so the orientation in 3D space of the two coils relative to each other will affect the measured inductance.   Far apart and with their major axes at right angles to each other should give you the best results with near-zero mutual coupling.  Or you might want to maximize the coupling, and have the two inductors next to each other and coaxial.

For each coil the associated inherent capacitance will start to become a factor at higher frequencies.

To establish a good baseline you can do a Bedini-type setup, use a 555 timer output to turn the transistor on and off, and replace the charging battery with a load resistor.  Use your scope and measure the time constant and derive the inductance.

For solid-core inductors you could use the same setup, and with increasing currents, find the current level that fully saturates the core.  So then you know the saturation current.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: gyulasun on August 04, 2012, 11:03:13 PM
That last part is interesting, thanks. It makes sense too, like simply using a thicker wire for a single winding on the core.
What about series connection for coils on the same core.... add inductances like normal?

Hi TinselKoala,

In the case you ask, inductances do not add as normal due to the mutual inductance(s) involved on the common core.
See this link for explanations, starting from the middle of the page, under Example 1:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/series-inductors.html

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 05, 2012, 03:39:18 AM
 Yes, the behavior is different when the coils are wound on the same core, as opposed to separate cores... Thanks for comments.

  I checked with TWO separate toroids using my home LCR meter:   with one toroid, L = 1.8 H; combining this with the OTHER separate toroid, I measure:

0.82 H (with the two in parallel)
3.23 H ( with the two in series).

Close to what I would expect for separate cores.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 06, 2012, 09:43:28 AM
TinselKoala, thanks for the info, very good. Ideal waveform in my opinion is sine, do you happen to know oscillator that puts out sine wave, just in case square-to-sine conversion does not go like in the movies ?

T-1000, trafo needs power pressure before it can deliver power. Signal generators put out power in milliwatt range, so most likely output is not so good. But high permeability core and high frequency drive signal might change things, atleast math says so. It might be worthwhile to test this anyway to gain more understanding.

Steve, very nice that you have such a meter available. Was not aware that such meters exist. So basically you could just measure the impedance of one coil with different frequency and when it reaches for example value above 100 kohm then that kind of frequency is needed to drive the coils to get the effect.

wattsup, I think there is only one frequency at work here. I tried multicore setup and I know it created lots of harmonics based on the sound of those nanoperm cores. Operation is such that the driver frequency needs to be cancelled by the second coil. If there would be multiple frequencies involved then this cancellation would not occur perfectly. The load causes 'delay' which causes change of impedance in normal trafos. Now that those two coils are connected together this delay is not seen by the first coil, only second coil sees it which then causes normal trafo operation in such a way that source does not see load. Maybe reason is that impedance can be diffent for two currents depending on their direction. Impedance is low towards output side but it is high towards input side, then input side is unable to push current through. Anyway, any experiments are good even if result is negative. But in my opinion any replicator should first see the original version working and only then try different setups. Otherwise tweak if unsuccessfull might cause frustration and whole project gets dropped. In FE search frustration is your worst enemy.
 
Yesterday I measured the idle power of the fat nano. I crossed the coils so I got current through both coils and 40 watt bulb lit up brightly. Then I touched the coil to see how hot it gets. The damn fatty shocked me ! I got shocks from the dielectric field, quite unpleasant actually. Then I put power just through 400 meter coil and same effect. The harder I pressed the bigger the shock, weird stuff. The wires I used have Mylar C insulation so I was not getting shocks from electric current in the wire. Maybe this dielectric field could be utilised at some stage, some coil perpendicular on top of toroidal wind and feedback to source or something like that. Anyway beware the dielectric field.
 
Idle current with 560 meters of wire (Litz setup) was around 8 watts, with 400 meters it was that 134 watts, with 800 meters it was below one watt. If someone wants to try grid frequency then these figures should give some insight on the amount of wire you would need. Core permeability was that 80000.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: aaron5120 on August 06, 2012, 05:20:34 PM
Sorry Jack, I went back to previous posts from you a day ago, and could not find where you have stated the frequency you are working with the nanoperm core.
I understand that you originally worked with grid frequency that was 50/60 Hz.
Could you please clarify which are the frequencies you ultimately are using?
Also the gauge of the Litz wire and its total DC resistance in the primary and secondary windings are parameters really important here in order replications can be made successfully.
Thanks for your understanding.
aaron5120
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 07, 2012, 09:44:17 AM
I used 220V/50 Hz, but it is easier to replicate at higher frequency. Note how in Steven's measurement resistance to AC was increased, at 0 Hz it was 40 ohms but at 100 Hz it was already 1.6 kohms with his commercial trafo. This is the effect that must be created in the core, high impedance state and higher is better. Core material does not matter, except for higher frequencies iron is out. Wire gauge does not matter, DC resistance does not matter. Only high impedance condition is needed and input should be sine wave with power behind it. This rules out normal signal generators, you might be able to see the effect though and determine the frequency your setup can use.

You don't need Litz wire, I unwound it first to get single wire because that was the only wire I had. This I then used to build the 800 meter nano, 80 10 meter strips. I was quite sane when I started it, but when I reached the end I am not so sure... My first test cores were done with just one 63 strand coil made from Litz wire so that prototyping was easy. This showed that it does not matter if coils were interleaved or separated, but this is true only at 50 Hz. At higher frequency things might change. Easiest way to make this is to use two strand wire, one round on top of core, then connect them and drive it at high enough frequency. Frequency does not need to be any resonant frequency as this setup is always in resonance wth source. This fact makes this important. Ridiculously easy way is to use commercial trafo and just raise up the frequency. It could make a difference if those coils are of different length, which seemed to be true in the trafo that Steven tested. At high frequencies I think it is necessary to have same length of wire in both coils.
 
Parameters you asked:
iron trafo: very thin wire, 0.0x mm thick, resistance was 165 ohms. Coil was small, atmost 10 mm wide. If you break trafo made by chinese company named Jutai then you will get the same coil I used. Trafo was rated to 20 watts and it was used to light up 80 small bulbs, not leds.
nanoperm: the fat one had 2 times 400 meters of 0.31 mm wire, close to AWG28, two separate sides, permeability 80000. 400 meters had about 68 ohms resistance, this particular coil was not measured because I lost my meter during winter.
 
If someone does tests then please put your findings here, even if the test is a failure. It will show to others what does not work and maybe we all learn something from it. My word is valid only for 50 Hz, rest is my speculation based on what I have read and use of common sense. Which is not very much in this field, I write software for living, so don't believe everything I say. Take it with grain of salt and if you end up testing a high frequency system be very careful and start from low pressure/power from source.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: magneto_DC on August 07, 2012, 12:33:22 PM

Parameters you asked:
iron trafo: very thin wire, 0.0x mm thick, resistance was 165 ohms. Coil was small, atmost 10 mm wide. If you break trafo made by chinese company named Jutai then you will get the same coil I used. Trafo was rated to 20 watts and it was used to light up 80 small bulbs, not leds.


Hi Jack Noskills,

as far as I understand, you had great success with the two identical 1:1 iron trafos. You already gave all necessary data: rated Voltage, Power, R (Winding) = 165 Ohms. (Impedanz some hundred Ohms at 50Hz maybe).

I would like to know, what kind of  1:1 trafo is it?

Is it 230V primary / 230V secondary, so the windings ratio would be (nearly): N1 / N2 = ~1300 / ~1400  ??
Or
Is it N1 / N2 = ~1300 / ~1300 = 1 : 1, so the output voltage is always something lower than the input voltage ??

Thanks for your clearification in advance.

Regards
magneto_DC
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 07, 2012, 01:07:05 PM
I smashed two identical christmas light trafos rated 20 watts, 220V/50Hz. I took primaries from them and made one 1:1 trafo out of those on the same laminated iron core, so coils were identical. Same junk that I used when I was playing with Thane's BiTT concept, in a bit modded version though. I used alternate return path instead of air gap, it was enough to change my mindset correctly towards FE.
 
Two such iron trafos as connected in the picture in page 1 proved to me output does not affect input and that there is more power at output than is used at input. This helped as I didn't have working meter available. When I saw it first time I was amazed, did not expect it to happen. I expected to get BiTT effect in single core. The first trafo is not necessary unless you want to protect source if power is pushed back, or if you need to use higher voltage to get more power. Can it push back, I don't know. Furthermore, adding cap in the second trafo improved ratio, less power was consumed and more power at output. That was a lucky shot. This means input side can be tuned so that it consumes only milliwatts, what is consumed by DC resistance of the coils. It is much easier to achive this without tuning cap, just put enough wire in the coils, or use high enough frequency to reach high impedance state.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e- on August 08, 2012, 04:30:21 AM
Hello, I read the forum a long time, now would like to contribute to research.

I was looking at the schematic made ​​by Jack Noskills and I realize that is the same as an autotransformer. So, if there really is OU, this would not be due to the configuration of the coils but the high impedance of the circuit.

Below I show the points of equivalence. What do you think?

I'm thinking about disassemble two microwave transformers and use the two high voltage coils to make a high impedance isolation transformer.


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on August 08, 2012, 05:18:43 AM
Hello, I read the forum a long time, now would like to contribute to research.

I was looking at the schematic made ​​by Jack Noskills and I realize that is the same as an autotransformer. So, if there really is OU, this would not be due to the configuration of the coils but the high impedance of the circuit.

Below I show the points of equivalence. What do you think?

I'm thinking about disassemble two microwave transformers and use the two high voltage coils to make a high impedance isolation transformer.
Thanks for joining in.  I think the difference - at least in Jack's initial circuit is that he has 2 separate cores whereas the autotransformer you show has just one core.   Your idea of using 2 MOT's sounds interesting.  I'm visualizing an easy way of just joining the cores mechanically (and electrically) but using only the only the HV windings on each thus giving a 1:1 if they are the same type.  Not sure if that would work but it came to mind.  I've got a lot of MOT's laying around so I might give that a try.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 08, 2012, 09:20:28 AM
e-, your setup is exactly the same thing I have. If there would be cap in the coil that has no load then it begins to look like Don Smith circuit without primary and without diodes, interesting similarity. Cap is not needed if it is possible to vary frequency.
 
Those two coils need to interact so they must be on the same core. The first version I used had two trafos, later on I realised only one is needed to create the effect.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e- on August 08, 2012, 12:23:44 PM
Thanks for joining in.  I think the difference - at least in Jack's initial circuit is that he has 2 separate cores whereas the autotransformer you show has just one core.   Your idea of using 2 MOT's sounds interesting.  I'm visualizing an easy way of just joining the cores mechanically (and electrically) but using only the only the HV windings on each thus giving a 1:1 if they are the same type.  Not sure if that would work but it came to mind.  I've got a lot of MOT's laying around so I might give that a try.


Ok, but Jack says he is only using one transformer and it works.

I thought about removing the HV coil of a MOT and fit in the other, but do not know if I can because the resin used to glue. I would like some opinion on how to remove the resin.

Another way would be to remove only the laminations "I" of the two MOTs and fit it all formed a single nucleus with the two parties "E" without having to remove any coil.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 08, 2012, 12:37:51 PM
I have tested E-E and it works fine too so it is better to use that instead of totally ruining the MOT. You can use one coil from each side, leave the others unconnected so they have no effect. You can use those for probing voltages when system is live. Don't know how a MOT looks like, start with finer grade wire first if there is difference in wire gauge.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 10, 2012, 11:27:43 AM
Hi Jack,
 
I would like to have a go at replicating.
 
Access to quite a few MOTs and a variac.
 
For other experiments, I have removed the top layer of transformer steel and retained what would
appear to be an E core with the both the heavy and light gauge windings.
 
If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting to get 4 of the high resistance (finer gauge wire) and
set two of these on a core. Make a second then, use the two pairs to create your one to one twin transformers.
 
Hope I am on the right track.
 
Pics to follow soon.
 
Penno
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 10, 2012, 12:34:55 PM
You can start with just one trafo.
Very first test is to put one coil via some bulbs, if they light up very bright then it most likely does not make sense to continue. Unless you have access to high frequency AC source, then things should become interesting. If you put two coils and measure this idle power flowing and you get below 10 watts, then there might be a chance. In my tests idle power of one 400 meter coil was 134 watts, but with 2 coils it was less than 1 watt. So it worked but it could have been much more powerfull if the idle power would have been one watt with just 400 meter coil.
 
Thank you for giving this a try.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 10, 2012, 12:53:05 PM
Hi Jack,
 
Thanks for the reply.
 
To be sure, are you suggesting two high impedance (100 ohm) identical coils on the same
"E" core?
 
 
Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 10, 2012, 01:16:05 PM
Yes, high impedance is the working principle. Higher the better. High impedance is created by number of turns, core permeability, high frequency or tuning cap. Tuning cap is the most difficult one to find.
 
I used E-I and toroid cores, E-E face to face should also work in case you cannot make E-I without trashing to MOT.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 10, 2012, 01:23:57 PM
Thanks,
 
Will let you know how it goes.
 
Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 10, 2012, 11:39:03 PM
@JN

The secondary of a MOT is way to high impedance and you will not be able to impress enough the core to go secondary to secondary. I have tried it in the past many times without any results. That secondary is the high voltage side of the MOT and those HV sides are not good to use as a primary.

But one thing you can do with two MOTS with their head cores removed is use two three way relays and they will pulse back and forth via the magnetic field produced in the core open center. That was fun to do and a good start to looping techniques with a few right sized caps.

I just got my local EE to make me a variable pulse circuit so I will be doing some more experiments tonight and this rainy weekend.

As for buying cores, I am taking my time and investigating all alternatives to move forward.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 11, 2012, 12:08:36 AM
Jack, I think I will help you with miissing parts in circuit :)

Here is my drawn full circuit with your part inside:
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 11, 2012, 02:52:11 AM
Hi Wattsup,
 
Thanks for the inside running on trying to use mots for Jack's setup.
 
It would be wonderful if you could spare some time to draw us a circuit of the setup
you have described. I would like to have a play with that and seeing that I have four mots
with the top core removed, it sounds like I am half way there.
 
Once again, Thanks.
 
p.s. What is your current recommendation for cores to use in Jack's setup?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 11, 2012, 09:51:04 AM
wattsup, did you connect the MOT as I have described ? If not, it is worth a try. The thing is that when current starts to flow, the impedance is lowered in the coils and they create more current. If you measure idle power of one secondary MOT coil and it is flat zero only then it does not work. Some leakage current is needed, but what is the threshold when it still works I cannot say. Could be that microamps are needed, or milliamps. I say it is well worth a try.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 11, 2012, 04:32:53 PM
@JN

To try that out with MOT secondaries in 1:1 ratio mode, you will need four identical "beheaded" MOTs. Since most MOTs have the primary on top of the secondary, you will have to remove all the coils on two of them, then remove the primary of the other two in order to then add the two free secondaries. That is a tremendous amount of work right there chock full of risk of ruining the coils in the process.

Then you have to realize that the MOT lamination bulkiness was not designed by chance. In a world were every penny counts, that lamination was designed to move power from the primary of much fewer turns to the secondary of incredible amount of turns and produce the output that it is supposed to produce. Now if the primary is a secondary coil on that same lamination, I fear it will never be able to effect the bulky nature of those laminations and the result will be almost nil, regardless of the connection method.

While we are now looking at Metglass or other high perm cores that would be highly reactive to the slightest impress, working with a MOT lamination would be like teaching a quadriplegic to walk.

From all the tests I have done on your circuit diagram, I think the best way will be with Metglass toroidal cores.

@penno64

I had put that up in 2008 here about midway through this post
http://www.overunity.com/4728/is-lindsays-sm-a-fraud/msg132324/#msg132324

I said relays but I was using 3-way reed contacts that you use for home alarm door/window contacts. Basically you have NC/NO on each reed contacts on there that you pass the primary through the opposite side. When one coil is charged it pulls in the reed to connect power (12 volt battery or other) to the other coil that then connects power to the first coil, etc. There is a link there to another thread that shows a basic diagram.

But I did not want to suggest this to push you away from this thread at all. Just that there are many ways to play around with a beheaded MOT.

Mainly, I would really have liked to see Thane Heins try one of these in his rotating magnet wheel experiments using the MOT as an output coil where the primary side that receives the close magnet rotation is shorted out to produce output on the high voltage secondary. That would have been a good test with something that is easilly accessible to anyone.

wattsup



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 11, 2012, 04:33:30 PM
   Jack - have you considered adding an earth GROUND to the circuit?  I'm seeing this as a way to allow charge to flow into and out of the circuit.  Conservation of charge seems to be strictly required; hope this helps.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 11, 2012, 04:44:31 PM
   Jack - have you considered adding an earth GROUND to the circuit?  I'm seeing this as a way to allow charge to flow into the circuit.  Conservation of charge seems to be strictly required; hope this helps.

@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: RAD-HHO on August 11, 2012, 06:29:47 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 11, 2012, 10:35:24 PM
That small 2-3% efficiency gain might be had if we wound the coils differently.  The only coil I have ever heard of verified to have the highest know loss-less was 60 + percent above all other coils and this was the Rodin Coil.  Though it's field is compressed and centered (focused) can we also use this idea to boost (by containing) our coils emanations.


This project is interesting and may from using two identical (polarized) coils as primary splits and another two coils identical (polarized)to re-combine in the secondaries.  Would our gains improve yet again?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on August 11, 2012, 11:02:51 PM
@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup
Think F-u-s-e  ... I know you know what that is :)  maybe 2 amp?   
I've seen two lines of thought on the concept of having a ground.  One says you can't get overunity with anything that is grounded.   The other says that ground can provide a source of electrons making overunity possible.  I think both may be correct depending on the type of circuit. 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 11, 2012, 11:19:19 PM
Hi Wattsup,
 
Thank you so much for the easily understood explamation and link.
 
I have for the last 6 months, being trying as you have hinted, to use the beheaded mots
with what started out as romero/muller generator. It is surprisingly easy to get a high voltage
from a mot used as a gen coil, but near impossible to get any useful current.
 
It seems that the spacing of the mags and the gaps of the mot tend to give a resonable glide
for the rotor. All mags facing same way.
 
Once more, thank you, Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on August 12, 2012, 04:49:01 AM
@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup

A high voltage will always flow into a low voltage. You don't even need a diode.  What do you think would happen if you looped it?  Do you think you would create an infinity loop Kapanadze style?  If so I recommend you put a load in series prior to connection, and just to be on the safe side put a spark gap across the load to act as a current limiter.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 12, 2012, 06:18:57 PM
@penno64

No problem.
I found this thread on another forum that may give some insight into MOTs.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/transformer-core-weld-186550/

I was thinking further about using a beheaded MOT on a magwheel, and maybe it will be better to also cut away the side laminations (that is one hell of a job) so only the square center core is facing the rotating magnets. The sidewall laminations may be moving the magnetic impress to the outer end of the coil and now when the magnet is at the center it has to revert it back and this may be causing undue losses. Even if the MOT is placed with sidewalls facing up and down, that extra flux movement may be causing undue cancellation effects.

@JN/@JS

Could not help myself so I took my new transformers and re-did your circuit.
I have a very thick wire that is connected to the house 3/4" copper ground pipe that comes to my desk for quick earth grounding.

So while the trans are outputting I put the ground to either of the output leads to the bulb and nothing changes at all. My ground has effect on devices so I know it is a good enough ground but maybe not good enough for this test. Don't know.

wattsup
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 12, 2012, 08:44:02 PM
Here is Romanov self runner in Russian side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4#t=0h44m0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4#t=0h44m0s)

The main working principle is in LC resonance in series generating pure current with lowest voltage in last winding as possible+ attached BEMF from Joule ringer for pure voltage and with much higher frequency sawtooth wave for mixing up with current. When current is mixed with BEMF voltage in 180 degrees to each other, it adds for summed up power.  Strangely enough, nobody was giving more attention to this...

Here is my quick drawn circuit and signals waveforms:
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 13, 2012, 02:20:53 AM
Ya nye govoryu po-Rooski.... but even I can see that the very first thing he does in the video is hook up a BATTERY... and there is also a bench power supply hooked up too.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 13, 2012, 09:42:19 AM
Nice T-1000, I think I understood why it works. 50 Hz signal is low voltage and when you add high voltage high frequency you get signal that flips back and forth across zero voltage level. This is needed for induction to occur, higher the frequency the better induction effect you will get. If it would be other way around then 50 Hz signal would be dominant and then you don't get more power out. I think this is not in resonance with the source as it draws from it.
 
Steven, I have tested ground connections in 'my' circuit, no effect what so ever. And I poked all connections, it was safe because I had bulb for limiting current.
 
Beheaded MOTs, lol. I don't want anyone to trash their MOTs, but if someone has one already available then try following test:
 
Connect thin secondary (use E-I here not beheaded)  as L - coil - bulb - N. If light is dimm then you can safely measure idle power using meter. If you have two such MOTs then put them face-to-face, E against E and leave I out of it so there is only one loop in the core. Also leave primaries unconnected. Then connect the similar coil from second MOT as shown, put the bulb back on. If bulb lights up, coil is wrong way and you need to swap wires. When wires are correct way and idle power is low, then you can take power from the second coil. If you take more power than the core itself can produce, only then it begins to draw from the source. This does not happen in two trafo setup. I think it could be used as safe feedback to source if core permeabilities are different. First trafo has lower permeability than second, first trafo would limit the feedback to the level defined by the first core. No infinite increase as it gets blocked by the core, hence no need to have spark gap and its radiation and stuff we don't need. This can be experimented with later once we get one successfull replication and if this scales up to higher frequencies well.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 13, 2012, 10:03:22 AM
I will get 3 transformers where the cores are not welded from ebay .
They are hard to find .
Maybe we could use 3 phase transformes for experimenting; the 3 primaries are identical therefor theres no need to disassemble them.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: baroutologos on August 13, 2012, 11:03:08 AM
Nice T-1000, I think I understood why it works.... This can be experimented with later once we get one successfull replication and if this scales up to higher frequencies well.


Hey,


Talking and fun is ongoing here (as it should) but yet have not seen original setup running, Jack. What is supposed to enjoy here? Theorizing 101?
:)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 13, 2012, 11:55:19 PM
Here is Romanov self runner in Russian side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4#t=0h44m0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4#t=0h44m0s)

The main working principle is in LC resonance in series generating pure current with lowest voltage in last winding as possible+ attached BEMF from Joule ringer for pure voltage and with much higher frequency sawtooth wave for mixing up with current. When current is mixed with BEMF voltage in 180 degrees to each other, it adds for summed up power.  Strangely enough, nobody was giving more attention to this...

Here is my quick drawn circuit and signals waveforms:


OM Gosh does anyone here have time to do a proper schematic translation from this information?    T-1000 can you provide us with a parts list as well?  We will look forward to an off the self parts project we can ALL make to the same standard world wide.





Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 14, 2012, 12:03:11 AM

OM Gosh does anyone here have time to do a proper schematic translation from this information?    T-1000 can you provide us with a parts list as well?  We will look forward to an off the self parts project we can ALL make to the same standard world wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4swpF3k03c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4swpF3k03c)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZU1_i0kZ7M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZU1_i0kZ7M)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlze-GnsxEs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlze-GnsxEs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeQu18ck3E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeQu18ck3E)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uObjlXTtgQY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uObjlXTtgQY) + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVDNkF1npHs&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVDNkF1npHs&feature=plcp) + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66-DV9kY2dM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66-DV9kY2dM) + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBPWQGBZwA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBPWQGBZwA) + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4)

You need to understand the working principle first and do experiments for building blocks before you will be ready for complete setup...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dllabarre on August 14, 2012, 12:42:35 AM
The main working principle is in LC resonance in series generating pure current with lowest voltage in last winding as possible+ attached BEMF from Joule ringer for pure voltage and with much higher frequency sawtooth wave for mixing up with current. When current is mixed with BEMF voltage in 180 degrees to each other, it adds for summed up power.  Strangely enough, nobody was giving more attention to this...
Here is my quick drawn circuit and signals waveforms:


T-1000

Is G1/G2 just a Joule Thief circuit?
How are 2 Joule Thief circuits wired together in your circuit?

Thanks
DonL
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 14, 2012, 09:08:28 AM
I suggest that we first get baseline replication of this simplest circuit as it needs just two coils, only then try mods to see if they improve.
 
I don't have equipment to make any videos, besides 30 watts free from the junk I use is not important as such, the operating principle is: output has no effect on input!
 
I would like to see what happens with iron core at higher frequency. Iron is no good when used as normal trafo at frequencies above 400 Hz or so, but this is not a normal trafo. Those two coils are in perfect sync with each other so their magnetic fields cancel. This means there is no magnetostriction as there is no delay, can this enable us to use higher frequency with iron ?

Before you say 'no', then think about Leedskalnin. He lifted rocks that weigh several tonnes and he said he used iron/steel cores. What if high frequency with iron creates anti gravity effect when coils are connected 'my way' ?
 
wattup, have you scoped what is the output waveform like, can you confirm if it is rectified sine wave ? If so, then at high frequency one could also say it is "DC with has component in it (SM)" or "dirty DC (TK)". Coincidence ?
 
dllbarre, I PM'd you the other day, don't know if you got it. Well, there was no information in it as such, just asked you to get back to me if you don't find the details you asked in TK thread.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 14, 2012, 09:21:40 AM
@Jack
I will receive 3 of them shortly .

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 14, 2012, 09:24:57 AM


T-1000

Is G1/G2 just a Joule Thief circuit?
How are 2 Joule Thief circuits wired together in your circuit?

Thanks
DonL

You can use joule thief there. They tune itself to resonance easily and all we need from them is high voltage BEMF spikes 180 degrees to current phase in the choke.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 14, 2012, 01:31:07 PM
@penno64,
 
E head to head means you will have room for four coils, you will use only two of them, the fine wire. You will also learn about magnetic current in this test, those cores stick together after power is switch off and stay that way. This depends on the phase of the sine wave is in when power is switched off. Magnetic current will go in the core forever.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 14, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
Thanks Jack,
 
I got that, but this is the bit that gets me -
 
"Then connect the similar coil from second MOT as shown"
 
Penno
 
p.s. a wiring diagram is what this dummy (me) needs
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 14, 2012, 01:44:44 PM
wire it as shown in the one trafo setup, there is a picture on page 3. If you are uncertain how windings go, then try both ways. But use the bulb for limiting current in case you quessed wrong. There is also picture about this in page 3.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 14, 2012, 02:01:29 PM
Ok Jack,
 
Results for first part of test-
 
L - Coil - bulb - N   =  no light.
 
Checked all connections and measured voltage at bulb - less than 1v AC
 
Bulb 60w - dc resistance = 72 ohms
 
Mot finer gauge wire  - dc resistance = 150 ohms
 
Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 14, 2012, 04:07:16 PM
wattup, have you scoped what is the output waveform like, can you confirm if it is rectified sine wave ? If so, then at high frequency one could also say it is "DC with has component in it (SM)" or "dirty DC (TK)". Coincidence ?

@JN

I'll look into that tonight.

I do remember that when putting just a scope probe on each side of the load (no probe grounds used), one side sine wave was a good three times higher then the other and slightly off phase, I'd say about 25% off phase. I found that to be interesting but really don't know how to determine if the sine wave is rectified DC or simple AC.

My output volts meter only sees the AC.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on August 14, 2012, 07:43:05 PM
How does one rectify DC and get a sine wave, anyway? Curious Koalas want to know.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 15, 2012, 05:57:50 AM
OK Jack,
 
Have it wire per pg. 3 diagram and now the 60w bulb glows very dimly at 240v.
 
Guess its time to start adding caps?
 
Typically, what type and size should I be testing ?
 
Thanks, Penno
 
p.s. pic to follow
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 15, 2012, 07:46:34 AM
@JN

I'll look into that tonight.

I do remember that when putting just a scope probe on each side of the load (no probe grounds used), one side sine wave was a good three times higher then the other and slightly off phase, I'd say about 25% off phase. I found that to be interesting but really don't know how to determine if the sine wave is rectified DC or simple AC.

My output volts meter only sees the AC.

wattsup

Can you see the output waveform with and without load just in case ?
You see voltage amplification because your coils are not equal length. This creates different potentials in the junction before the load and hence some current flows through the coils. If coils were equal then this would not occur and all current would go via load. This is my interpretation.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 15, 2012, 08:27:59 AM
As requested -
 
Changed bulb to 40w - as expected, begins to glow at lower voltage (I am using a 240 Variac for testing)
 
Wattmeter pre variac - 240v 0.07A and 10.2W
 
Inline digital ampmeter shows (in place of safety bulb) - .06 to .07A AC of course.
 
Begining to feel Wattsup was on the money. Maybe the coils 170ohms is to high for this exercise.
 
Let me know what you think. Thanks, Penno.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 15, 2012, 09:24:37 AM
Penno,
Wattsup and itsu are invaluable replicators and it is just stupid to assume they are after money..
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on August 15, 2012, 09:34:56 AM
Hi T,
 
You misunderstand.
 
Here, Australia, when someone is totally correct, our expression used is, they are ON THE MONEY.
 
Sorry, I should resist from using slang.
 
Btw Jack, thanks for helping to try and get this going with MOTs.
 
 
I have also at my disposal, several 240v - 9v (.5A) and 15v (1.1A) identical transformers that I could
pull apart is you feel they maybe usefull.
 
Let me know, Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 15, 2012, 09:37:21 AM
As requested -
 
Changed bulb to 40w - as expected, begins to glow at lower voltage (I am using a 240 Variac for testing)
 
Wattmeter pre variac - 240v 0.07A and 10.2W
 
Inline digital ampmeter shows (in place of safety bulb) - .06 to .07A AC of course.
 
Begining to feel Wattsup was on the money. Maybe the coils 170ohms is to high for this exercise.
 
Let me know what you think. Thanks, Penno.

0.07 A is 70 mA which is enough to light up 40 watt bulb almost to half brightness. This means the coils are now 'leaking', is this 70 mA now measured with two coils ? My fat nano used less than one watt when two coils were connected. How does this compare to your system when you have two coils without load ?

Did you test what is the idle power in L-coil-amp meter-N circuit without variac ? Coil in my iron trafo has 165 ohms of resistance so it is close to yours. I dont have variac so we cannot compare. I used watt meter in the wall and when I put load watt meter did not see it.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 15, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
How does one rectify DC and get a sine wave, anyway? Curious Koalas want to know.
I was talking about rectified sine wave, meaning if the negative cycle is folded back to positive at output in the circuit. So output waveform looks like sine wave pulses, when frequency is high enough then it 'looks' like DC in scope if you look at it 'far' enough'.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 15, 2012, 10:53:04 AM
I want to remoind you again that high impedance is what is needed for this to work, idle power when using just one coil should be as low as possible, below 0.01 A. Only then you can squeeze power out.

Anyway, it is good to find out why MOTs don't seem to work at grid frequency. They would be usefull at higher frequency but I know it is difficult to get variable frequency AC source that has some power behind it. Fixed high frequency drive would work too, but then you have to experiment with wire lengths which is time consuming. Seems that MOTs require tuning caps, but first L of one coil needs to be measured accurately with a meter that measures L at the frequency coil is going to be used. This could be a difficult problem, or you can try if you are lucky as I was:
 
I know what you are thinking, have I spent 600 hours on the bench searching for FE or only 500 ? This could be the most powerfull free energy device in the world that could blow the competition CLEAN off. So the question you are going to have to ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky ?"
 
In case you did not recognize it, that was from the first Dirty Harry movie with some minor adaptation to current situation lol.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: iflewmyown on August 15, 2012, 04:08:57 PM
One result. transformer # 14T0011-002 surplus new.  Two multiple tap primaries N - 100v -105v -110v -115v -120v plus multiple secondaries. Idle current will reduce to 21ma. using 1.8 mfd 600v cap. 40w incandescent bulb on load pulls 40.8w on meter. Next test 40w bulb in input side glows brighter than one in load side. This transformer weighs 22 lbs. and was used to try to get a large measurable difference.
Garry
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wattsup on August 16, 2012, 07:38:29 AM
I'm not in it for any money so whatever I find, I post. hehe
Much safer that way.

Here is a small vid I made with the standard circuit best scenario with my newer transformers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmBGNeWPfc

The result is no OU of course for these transformers. Just wanted to show the off phase and output discrepancy between each side of the AC.

Anyone that has a pair of nice fat bifilar coils, with or without core can try the same wiring and see what gives.

Also, anyone with a romero wheel that is using bifilar pick-up coils can put one pick-up coil on the wheel and one pick-up coil as the other transformer and see if the output can occur without creating drag. Thane Heins can try this with his magrotor or his many other coils.

wattsup

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 16, 2012, 10:20:42 AM
One result. transformer # 14T0011-002 surplus new.  Two multiple tap primaries N - 100v -105v -110v -115v -120v plus multiple secondaries. Idle current will reduce to 21ma. using 1.8 mfd 600v cap. 40w incandescent bulb on load pulls 40.8w on meter. Next test 40w bulb in input side glows brighter than one in load side. This transformer weighs 22 lbs. and was used to try to get a large measurable difference.
Garry

You need to use two similar coils from it and leave others unconnected. Use the finer coils. Measure the idle power of just one coil, then compare it to power you see when two coils are connected together (without load). Idle power should be lower. If it higher then second coil is wrong way and you need to swap connections.
 
Check the efficiency of your trafo, use it as normal trafo and check how much power it can provide at output. When wiring is correct, then you can take this power and then some without taking it from the wall.

Measure the resistance of the coils you use for reference.
 
edit:
 
Can you take measurements with and without cap ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: viny on August 16, 2012, 06:21:41 PM
@ T1000 (ARUNAS): Did you make a video of your setup?, unfortunately for me, I can't get it from your  quick drawn circuit.
                        Thanks
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: iflewmyown on August 16, 2012, 07:59:10 PM



[size=78%]Quote from: iflewmyown on August 15, 2012, 04:08:57 PM[/size]
One result. transformer # 14T0011-002 surplus new.  Two multiple tap primaries N - 100v -105v -110v -115v -120v plus multiple secondaries. Idle current will reduce to 21ma. using 1.8 mfd 600v cap. 40w incandescent bulb on load pulls 40.8w on meter. Next test 40w bulb in input side glows brighter than one in load side. This transformer weighs 22 lbs. and was used to try to get a large measurable difference.
Garry


Jack :You need to use two similar coils from it and leave others unconnected.


That is what I did.


Jack: Use the finer coils. Measure the idle power of just one coil, then compare it to power you see when two coils are connected together (without load). Idle power should be lower. If it higher then second coil is wrong way and you need to swap connections.


That is what I did.
 
Jack: Check the efficiency of your trafo, use it as normal trafo and check how much power it can provide at output.


Each coil separate 124VAC .085A     Dc. ohms .8           


Wired together .038A   no load


Normal isolation transformer  With load 124VAC 2.2A  input         


Normal isolation transformer  With load 120VAC 2.2A out


Garry





Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 17, 2012, 09:47:54 AM


[size=78%]Quote from: iflewmyown on August 15, 2012, 04:08:57 PM[/size]
One result. transformer # 14T0011-002 surplus new.  Two multiple tap primaries N - 100v -105v -110v -115v -120v plus multiple secondaries. Idle current will reduce to 21ma. using 1.8 mfd 600v cap. 40w incandescent bulb on load pulls 40.8w on meter. Next test 40w bulb in input side glows brighter than one in load side. This transformer weighs 22 lbs. and was used to try to get a large measurable difference.
Garry


Jack :You need to use two similar coils from it and leave others unconnected.


That is what I did.


Jack: Use the finer coils. Measure the idle power of just one coil, then compare it to power you see when two coils are connected together (without load). Idle power should be lower. If it higher then second coil is wrong way and you need to swap connections.


That is what I did.
 
Jack: Check the efficiency of your trafo, use it as normal trafo and check how much power it can provide at output.


Each coil separate 124VAC .085A     Dc. ohms .8           


Wired together .038A   no load


Normal isolation transformer  With load 124VAC 2.2A  input         


Normal isolation transformer  With load 120VAC 2.2A out


Garry

I have been told that this setup halves the voltage at output, so if you have 120 volts coming in there is 60 volts at output. Output waveform is sinewave, also current is sinewave with some high frequency bumps in it, I counted four distinct bumps per one wave.

I think the parameters in your trafo are good enough, but not perfect. Idle power could be closer to zero with one coil, but still this should work properly. Since idle power decreases with two coils your wiring is correct.
 
Did you try the two lamp experiment ? Light on output side should be brighter than the current limiter bulb. If they are equal then something is not right. In this case can you provide a picture of your setup so connections and lamps are clearly visible ?
Can you do the two trafo experiment, also with bulbs ? First trafo need not be similar to first as long as it is 1:1, or 1:2 as voltage is halved at output.
 
Did you measure the resistance of the coils to make sure they are equal ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 18, 2012, 01:31:11 AM
@ T1000 (ARUNAS): Did you make a video of your setup?, unfortunately for me, I can't get it from your  quick drawn circuit.
                        Thanks




T-1000      I watched all those links in russian a few times    I understand no russian.   I see excited people and equipment and circuits.   I have a 1000Watt variac/ one constant voltage trafco 15 amps, one LARGE older neon sign DUAL trafco.   Can anyone make a finer detail schematic of the circuit for us?

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: iflewmyown on August 18, 2012, 02:09:04 AM
You asked to see my efficiency of my transformer
I replied
Normal isolation transformer  With load 124VAC 2.2A  input          Normal isolation transformer  With load 120VAC 2.2A out


It does halve the voltage wired as shown in the diagram.


I did try the two lamp experiment the input bulb is warmer, not the output. The DC ohms are listed above and are equal.
No one wants this to work more than me. I bought these transformers just for this experiment. I did the two transformer experiment with bulbs first. I listed the model number so no one else would waste money on this transformer. It may well work with every other transformer in the known universe but not with these two.
I was trained in this field forty years ago and it should not work like you claim so I didn't test your idea till just now. Every time someone sees something new to them they tell the world but I have only seen free energy three times in thirty years and I declined to pursue each of those ideas ( none were original with me )
I wasted an hour this morning retesting and twenty minutes typing this. ( I type very slowly ).
Garry
P.S. If you have this setup working with iron transformers at 60Hz. A picture with meters would encourage people. Even the two bulb test with an infrared thermometer would be helpful. I have been sucked in before by people with an idea who want someone else to do the work. There is free energy for the taking and it has to be somebodies idea. Once you have seen it you will chase every lead to make it practical.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 18, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
You asked to see my efficiency of my transformer
I replied
Normal isolation transformer  With load 124VAC 2.2A  input          Normal isolation transformer  With load 120VAC 2.2A out


It does halve the voltage wired as shown in the diagram.


I did try the two lamp experiment the input bulb is warmer, not the output. The DC ohms are listed above and are equal.
No one wants this to work more than me. I bought these transformers just for this experiment. I did the two transformer experiment with bulbs first. I listed the model number so no one else would waste money on this transformer. It may well work with every other transformer in the known universe but not with these two.
I was trained in this field forty years ago and it should not work like you claim so I didn't test your idea till just now. Every time someone sees something new to them they tell the world but I have only seen free energy three times in thirty years and I declined to pursue each of those ideas ( none were original with me )
I wasted an hour this morning retesting and twenty minutes typing this. ( I type very slowly ).
Garry
P.S. If you have this setup working with iron transformers at 60Hz. A picture with meters would encourage people. Even the two bulb test with an infrared thermometer would be helpful. I have been sucked in before by people with an idea who want someone else to do the work. There is free energy for the taking and it has to be somebodies idea. Once you have seen it you will chase every lead to make it practical.

OK, I just did not understand .8 ohms what it means, 800 ohms ?
 
Two lamp experiment when current limiting bulb is brighter than output tells me that load is possibly now in wrong place. It happened to me when the load was between the two coils. Load must be so that one end is connected to junction, that is in the middle where two coils connect, and the other end in the beginning of either coil.
 
Do you have a link for this trafo you are using ? It has iron core ?
 
I have one replication now by a qualified EE, low power trafo and coils have about 35 ohms resistance. This gave about COP of 1.5, a mere 7 watts extra but it is a start. Stronger coils would gave better COP. Output waveform is flattened sinusoid, so most likely meters are not quite accurate. Also voltage is divided by two. Bulbs are better determining difference in power at this level if there is no scope available. Maybe I can get pictures of these waveforms later once testing is complete.
 
Sorry this did not work for you, I would like figure out why if you still have strength to investigate more.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: JouleSeeker on August 18, 2012, 05:41:13 PM
[snip]
 
I have one replication now by a qualified EE, low power trafo and coils have about 35 ohms resistance. This gave about COP of 1.5, a mere 7 watts extra but it is a start. Stronger coils would gave better COP. Output waveform is flattened sinusoid, so most likely meters are not quite accurate. ...

Sounds great, Jack, but can you please tell us:
1.  How did he measure input power and output power?  2.  What are the actual measurement numbers he measured, for both input and output power?
3.   What circuit did he use, e.g., with or without capacitor?   actual circuit diagram please.
4.  And, if possible, can you tell us what trafos he used?  photo?

I would like to see this work also!  but more info is required for me to jump back in, since I'm one of those who did a replication (two actually, with different trafo-pairs) but only saw COP < 1.
Thanks, friend.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 19, 2012, 07:18:46 PM


I bought 3 identical trafos at ebay 220V, 28V 3 Amp 85 Watts


disassembled all of them unwound one secondary and rewound it with the
primary of another trafo, so I got a 1:1 Trafo . The rewound coil is
the upper one . Could not get it so perfect . THe DC resistance is around 17 Ohms.
Cannot measure the impedance.


Like Jack said, if the polarity of one coil is wrong Lamp1 if full lit and Lamp2 is dark.
Both Lamps are 220 V 25W Lamps (used in refrigerator )
Lamp1 is on the first picture the left on (that one with the lower intensity)


Wattmeter showed 9,1W
Input Volts 234,7V AC 50 Hz


P calc = Input Volts * I(Lamp1) = 8,2145 W
Now I think it's better not to rely on the value of the wattmeter.
Input Watts calculated from the values of the multimeter.(As the other values)
With a phase delay U->I of 9 Degrees measured by my scope.
Sorry no picture .


cos(9) = 0,98
->
8,2145 W * 0.98 = 8,05021 input watts
______________________
U(Lamp1) = 45,5 V
I(Lamp1) = 35 mA
P(Lamp1) = 1,5925 W
______________________
U(Lamp2) = 93,3 V
I(Lamp2) = 59 mA
P(Lamp2) = 5,5047 W
______________________
Sum POut = 7,0972 W


_____________________________________________
COP = 0,88


What further improvements can be made?
I could wind 2 identical coils with a much thinner wire. (Don't have many options)
But the DC resistance will be around 30 to 50 Ohms . I think that is not
acceptable, because of the heat losses...




Greetings BK




 

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: a.king21 on August 20, 2012, 04:41:34 AM
.



 Every time someone sees something new to them they tell the world but I have only seen free energy three times in thirty years and I declined to pursue each of those ideas ( none were original with me )

 There is free energy for the taking and it has to be somebodies idea. Once you have seen it you will chase every lead to make it practical.

Hi, iflewmyown,
Can you remember the devices you have seen which gave you free energy? Is there any literature available on-line about then?
Cheers.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 20, 2012, 09:38:45 AM

I bought 3 identical trafos at ebay 220V, 28V 3 Amp 85 Watts


disassembled all of them unwound one secondary and rewound it with the
primary of another trafo, so I got a 1:1 Trafo . The rewound coil is
the upper one . Could not get it so perfect . THe DC resistance is around 17 Ohms.
Cannot measure the impedance.


Like Jack said, if the polarity of one coil is wrong Lamp1 if full lit and Lamp2 is dark.
Both Lamps are 220 V 25W Lamps (used in refrigerator )
Lamp1 is on the first picture the left on (that one with the lower intensity)


Wattmeter showed 9,1W
Input Volts 234,7V AC 50 Hz


P calc = Input Volts * I(Lamp1) = 8,2145 W
Now I think it's better not to rely on the value of the wattmeter.
Input Watts calculated from the values of the multimeter.(As the other values)
With a phase delay U->I of 9 Degrees measured by my scope.
Sorry no picture .


cos(9) = 0,98
->
8,2145 W * 0.98 = 8,05021 input watts
______________________
U(Lamp1) = 45,5 V
I(Lamp1) = 35 mA
P(Lamp1) = 1,5925 W
______________________
U(Lamp2) = 93,3 V
I(Lamp2) = 59 mA
P(Lamp2) = 5,5047 W
______________________
Sum POut = 7,0972 W


_____________________________________________
COP = 0,88


What further improvements can be made?
I could wind 2 identical coils with a much thinner wire. (Don't have many options)
But the DC resistance will be around 30 to 50 Ohms . I think that is not
acceptable, because of the heat losses...




Greetings BK




 

Good work !
DC resistance of 17 ohms does not seem to make strong enough coil but the effect is there. I got 165 ohms in the iron trafo, easily over to 10000 turns in it.
But, now I am confused. You got current limiter bulb at less intensity than the load bulb, same effect I have. When there was no load current limiter bulb was not lit, yes ?
 
In my test the limiter bulb stayed unlit when load was connected, this is explained by stronger coil.
In the two trafo experiment I got the current limiter bulb on the first trafo and same effect was there, no effect on limiter bulb but more light on output side. What is the difference between these two tests ? In my opinion they are identical.
 
In your test the voltage on lamp 1 is 45 volts, L has 220 volts coming in respect to ground, and N has 175 volts respect to ground, correct ? Should the power in be now 1.59 watts and not 8.05 watts because potential difference between L and N is now 45 volts and not 220 ? You got watt meter on the wall, what does that tell you ?
 
Better not wind new coil until this effect has been sorted out. You now got the same effect but if it is not OU then making new coil only makes the output glow brighter still while limiter bulb dimms. If this is not OU then case is closed.
 
What what the idle power with no load connected ?
 
EDIT:
I don't know if it makes a difference but in my two bulb test I got the limiter bulb just after the load bulb. Maybe you could test if there this changes anything ? Just move the limiter bulb in N line
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 20, 2012, 01:41:23 PM

<When there was no load current limiter bulb was not lit, yes ? >
With no load (Lamp2) the bulb (Lamp1) was not lit and the power consumption was about 2 Watts.


<In my test the limiter bulb stayed unlit when load was connected, this is explained by stronger coil.>


In my setup the power that the current Limiter bulb (Lamp1) consumes depends on the load (Lamp2).
And I don't understand why Load:Lamp2 lights up stronger then CurrentLimiter:Lamp1 , because both are of the same wattage in my case.




<In your test the voltage on lamp1 is 45 volts, L has 220 volts coming in respect to ground, and N has 175 volts respect to ground, correct ? Should the power in be now 1.59 watts and not 8.05 watts because potential difference between L and N is now 45 volts and not 220 ? You got watt meter on the wall, what does that tell you ?>


The 8,05021 Watts is the power consumed from the wall socket being calculated by the Mains Voltage x I(Lamp1) . The Meter shows 9,1W .


If you have an vfd (variable frequency drive) try minimising input watts.


In the early Thane Heins setup the accelerating under load effect only
occured with high impedance coils and driving the rotor above certain rpms.


I will try high impedance coils, but before purchasing a vfd , I would
wish someone else with this equipment would carry out this experiment.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 20, 2012, 01:56:25 PM
Make your test using L - coil - load bulb - limiter bulb - N, with the second coil connected correctly parallel to load bulb.

No need to invest in new hardware yet, you already have the same effect I have. Now it needs to be investigated why those bulbs are not equally bright.
 
To me this is OU because I had the same effect also with two trafos. Limiter bulb on primary side of first trafo had no light while I got light on load side. Also the coil was warm on the second trafo but cold in the first trafo. When I removed the first trafo and just put limiter bulb effect was the same, but stronger because one trafo was removed.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 20, 2012, 03:34:42 PM
I moved the current limiting lamp to the other pole ; but nothing seems to have changed.


<Also the coil was warm on the second trafo but cold in the first trafo> [/size]
This is a very valuable hint, because there is no reason for that. The same trafos ; power transfered to the load through 2 of them the temperature of the first should be slightly higher then the second.[/size]

[/size]
Please make 2 measurements with the trafo in idle mode. Connect one of the primaries to mains with a ampmeter in series and let the trafo operate for a few minutes in idle mode. Read the amps and the main volts.[/size]
Disonnect the 2 connectors of the trafo and measure the DC resistance. Whats your mains frequency?
Now I can calculate Inductivity of your primary coil and do a comparision.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Overschuss on August 20, 2012, 10:10:54 PM
[...] And I don't understand why Load:Lamp2 lights up stronger then CurrentLimiter:Lamp1 , because both are of the same wattage in my case.


Because the current and the voltage are out of Phase (the current lags behind the voltage). Don't forget: The Trafo is an inductive Load. Take a 2-Channel Scope and do a closer look.


Sorry, IMO this is not OU here - but i don't want to discourage anyone here.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 21, 2012, 07:25:48 AM
Because of current laging behind the voltage only does not explain why lamp2 lights up stronger.
But with this circuit will have this effect:
It is not obvious that there is a Capacitance in JNS Circuit , maybe the 2 windings have a capacitance effect.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 21, 2012, 08:56:07 AM
TheCell,
 
I cannot do this test as I dont have ampmeter, sorry. I have 220V/50 Hz in the grid, so our setups are similar. If you have christmas light trafo that is rated to 20 watts or so you can get the same coils from there. DC resistance of that coil was 165 ohms, so it is much stronger than your coil. I can say that amps are below 20 mA, you could compute impedance according to 5 mA, 10 mA and 20 mA. There is lots of capacitance in the winding as there are lots of turns within 10 mm width.
 
I looked at your pics when it was running. You measured about 1.5 watts in the first bulb and about 5.5 watts in the second bulb. I dont think 1.5 watts is enough to light up the first bulb to that level. I have tested using 25 watt bulbs also and the lamp dimmly glows even at 5 watts. What I think is that watt meter shows 8 watts that is consumed by the first bulb, what you got in the second bulb is extra and it is more than 8 watts because bulb is brighter.
One way to confirm is that you disconnect the load bulb. There is about 2 watts of idle power in the circuit, so it should be able to light up the first bulb to same brightness. Yet it stays unlit, what is the explanation ?

If you connect and disconnect load, do you see any flickering in the first bulb ? I have noticed that sometimes the first bulb momentarily lights up and then goes out. Could be that 20 ohms coil does not show this effect though.
 
Lets see how far this reasoning goes:
First you got L - bulb - N, voltage difference between L and N is 220 volts and current flows accordingly, bulb lights up.
Now modify this to get L - bulb - coil - N. Now there is some resistance in the coil, voltage difference between L and left side of coil is now less, lets say it is 180 volts. Current flows still and lamp is less bright.
Next lets get lucky and put a paralle cap across coil so it forms a tank circuit and resonates at 50 Hz. Current stops flowing, voltage difference is now close to zero. As current does not flow then power is not consumed, correct ?
Lets add second coil, L - bulb - coil - coil - N, parallel cap still in place across first coil. Result is still the same, no current flows and no power is consumed, correct ?
Last, put load parallel to second coil, this is the same setup as in the pictures with parallel cap. Now the load lamp will light up, but still no light in the first lamp. Current still cannot flow past the tank circuit and no power is consumed. Situation is still similar as above when looking at the first bulb, correct ?
If this is transformed into two trafo setup where the sniffer bulb is on primary side, effect would be the same. Now, who can explain what is going on with two trafo setup, if not OU ?
 
If it wasn't for the two trafo setup, I would happily give up at this stage. But damn, I made the two trafo setup first. One trafo setup was continuation to that.
 
EDIT: added mA estimates
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 21, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
Relationships between so many projects, which have be proven to have unexplained energy, is where we will find the common factor.   Like the water flowing in pipes then shut down suddenly making the pipes rattle is as I relate this common denominator.   The ends of the "pipes" in this case the being the beginning and end of the circuit.   It sheds light on that saying "split the negative".   


Spark gaps still pass the lines of force even though, at the correct gap per setup, the SG limit other properties.


We are generating and separating the different forces using many methods.  What are the "classes of the forces".  How are each controlled?  If we can apply these specific ideas to the different elements of force (or differences of potential) THEN we WILL know how the extra energy is gained. 


Pressures of all types compress, causes heat, excites the molecules.  An increase in potential.


Relax those pressures and what in turn happens? A decrease in potential.   Decompression, cooling, relaxed and slowed molecules.


At low voltages we generate slow movement of charges, so it takes a lot of these charges to get work done.  The lines of force are minimal.


At high voltages we create focused high speed lines of force.   Not much heat when released do to the decompression (using the force), it will even turn this pressure into work or LOAD.  This will of course cause the charge to lose speed (compression) and suddenly the charge is losing heat (slowing down).


Even the device doing the work will run cold.   


Think about this and when we see it on our own terms and realize these are the facts we will be able to use these principles to design and build working device(s).


High Voltage and high frequency are a double compression method and we can gain a great deal of these different forces ( lines of force) if we decompress both the HV and the HF at the same time.


It will be similar to the forces caused when high pressure, warm air meets with low pressure cool air.


We can find these facts all across the internet easily, but the use of them is for us to realize and build upon them.


 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 21, 2012, 03:07:25 PM
How I relate this to the circuit in this topic is that we are using frequency of the AC and causing a splitting AND usage of the lines of force  (both negative and positive lines of force) by making a path available to each force.  We are doubling the potential differences.  We up to this point have meters and other test equipment developed to sense the effects of the positive going lines of force.  This is why we have not noticed the negative lines of force, nor even knew of their benefit.


We have no doubt all heard of "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" many times in our lives.  But have we ever stopped and thought of how can we use the opposite reaction as well as the positive action.  Newton slipped that one passed the censors and us for a long time.  At least it eluded me until this morning.


If we apply this with a little imagination toward "the divisable by three" practice of Tesla.  It might mean create two forces: one in any direction the second force in the opposite will naturally occur.  The third force will be created (energy) when the first two forces are recombined.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 22, 2012, 07:52:28 AM
TheCell,
 
Have you figured out what is going on in your setup ? Would it make any sense to measure current in various positions in the circuit ? Referring to your picture, current before and after limiter bulb, current before and after each coil, current before and after load bulb, then current in the N line.

If you got scope, then check current and voltage waveforms at output and at input. Output waveform might look weird. On input side check current in L and N separately, are they different ?
 
One option is to use GND instead of N, then measure current coming in from L and current going to GND, also to N so you can compare. Maybe this setup is now pushing back and it confuses meters. I use stronger coils and maybe this is the reason I don't see it. Or my watt meter is just crap in this regard.
 
EDIT:
Easiest way to measure this is to put 1:1 trafo in front and measure primary side of this. Maybe step down trafo could be used aswell, but then something else is needed as load as 230 V bulbs stop working at lower voltage.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 22, 2012, 09:32:56 AM
How I relate this to the circuit in this topic is that we are using frequency of the AC and causing a splitting AND usage of the lines of force  (both negative and positive lines of force) by making a path available to each force.  We are doubling the potential differences.  We up to this point have meters and other test equipment developed to sense the effects of the positive going lines of force.  This is why we have not noticed the negative lines of force, nor even knew of their benefit.


We have no doubt all heard of "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" many times in our lives.  But have we ever stopped and thought of how can we use the opposite reaction as well as the positive action.  Newton slipped that one passed the censors and us for a long time.  At least it eluded me until this morning.


If we apply this with a little imagination toward "the divisable by three" practice of Tesla.  It might mean create two forces: one in any direction the second force in the opposite will naturally occur.  The third force will be created (energy) when the first two forces are recombined.

The opposite reaction is always converted into another action in mother Nature from all beginning .. You should look closer how all processes in Earth work.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 22, 2012, 09:50:40 AM
You are right on that one T-1000 and this is the point,  we should be aware of this action and use it.   


It takes a lot of energy to clap with one hand, yet this is how we design and use energy in the circuits of today.


Instead we should.......as you said.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 22, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
TheCell,
 
Have you figured out what is going on in your setup ? Would it make any sense to measure current in various positions in the circuit ? Referring to your picture, current before and after limiter bulb, current before and after each coil, current before and after load bulb, then current in the N line.

If you got scope, then check current and voltage waveforms at output and at input. Output waveform might look weird. On input side check current in L and N separately, are they different ?
 
One option is to use GND instead of N, then measure current coming in from L and current going to GND, also to N so you can compare. Maybe this setup is now pushing back and it confuses meters. I use stronger coils and maybe this is the reason I don't see it. Or my watt meter is just crap in this regard.
 
EDIT:
Easiest way to measure this is to put 1:1 trafo in front and measure primary side of this. Maybe step down trafo could be used aswell, but then something else is needed as load as 230 V bulbs stop working at lower voltage.

@Jack
Measuring current before and after a circuit (lamp) : are allways the same values (Kirchhoffs Law) , and Volts and Amps of a resistor can be mutiplied to get the power, because of no phase delay. Instead at Input side there was indeed a small phase delay of 9 deg (360 deg is the whole circle) and the cosinus of 9 Deg is 0,98 and therefor negligable.
At this point I see only a difference in the impedance of the coils , and it takes only time for me to wind a 1:1 trafo with these coils.

In my household electricity there is a protective switch which shuts off all phases when a leakage current occurs, therefore I can't ground the device. And I hav'nt got another 1:1 trafo.

I will publish measurements with current limiter lamp and load lamp both 15 watts , with pictures of scope at the input side.

And if I got the time and the mood I will manufature the high impedance trafo and do measurements with the 15 Watt Lamps. I am an electrician and know how to measure power and don't think that there is a fault.
And yes, there can be options, that I have not recognized / tested nor have the equitpment to test it EG higher Frequency.


You said in one of your posts:
I have one replication now by a qualified EE, low power trafo and coils have about 35 ohms resistance. This gave about COP of 1.5, a mere 7 watts extra but it is a start.


Who did the measurements? We want to know the parameters . Voltage, Frequency,
permeability of the Core or Core material, Impedance (Ohms for giver freq. ) or Indcutance of one winding.
Was it a single trafo setup?
Let the engineer make a photo and publish it here!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 22, 2012, 01:39:36 PM
There will be a test report. I have one that has one trafo setup described. In that current limiter bulb uses 1.5 watts and load bulb around 20 watts. But all the meters show it is not OU, so same effect you have. Last test is to test this in using isolation. There are two trafos back to back because suitable 1:1 was not available, so first stepdown and then step up so there are some losses. This setup also did not show OU, when taking power it was seen at input. Only difference to my setup is now the resistance of the coils, which was 165 ohms in mine. Impedance was not measured, I will ask and permission to post the test report.
 
I refer once more to two trafo test I made with iron trafos in the beginning. First just two trafos in series, I got bulb on primary of first trafo then at output of second trafo. I put load I got light on first trafo and little less light on second trafo. This is normal. Then I connected the second trafo differently, I got no light on first trafo and more light on second trafo compared to test one. So I got two different behaviour, first test is obviously not OU. What is happening in this second test ? This is why I started this thread in the first place, to get explanation to this effect from others that know things better.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 23, 2012, 07:44:14 AM
Here is test report as promised. Now that inductance figures are known it is clear why input 'sees' load. I think inductive reactance should be well over 10 kohms, higher is better. Ideally < 1 mA should flow through one coil when no load. I still don't understand why bulbs are unequal. If coil is leaking' towards source, then the first bulb sees sum of two currents but going in opposite direction (low voltage difference) lamp does not get power. Or something like that.

Does anyone have a small iron trafo that is used to light small bulbs (not leds) and measure L of that ? Maybe we could compare.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 23, 2012, 10:38:03 AM
Below you find my views how to build high frequency version. Read it and comment about it. Send comments using PM and I can then update document. Let me know if you want/dont want your name to show in case changes are done.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: leo48 on August 23, 2012, 11:57:39 AM
@Noskil

The file report.zip not open
Leo48


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 23, 2012, 12:54:04 PM
Explanation from EE for the sawtooth waveform of voltage at output when load connected:
 
There is harmonic content till 1KHz. The strongest harmonic is the third with amplitude about 1/10 of fundamental (50Hz).
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 23, 2012, 01:40:29 PM
@Noskil

The file report.zip not open
Leo48

I tried to post older word document two times, both failed. I don't have any other tool than winzip so cannot help.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 23, 2012, 03:24:16 PM
Same arrgmnt with 15W bulbs both, measurements and scope shots.
No reason to get excited. (No OU)


Zip File contains 2 Parts,







Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: photonix on August 23, 2012, 03:24:44 PM
please repost the report.zip, the zip is corrupted(unexpected end of file)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 23, 2012, 03:28:12 PM
2nd Part
rename .txt to .z01
and open both with winrar or I guess winzip works too
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: FatBird on August 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
TheCell,
 
I downloaded your file & this is what it looks like.
 
Can you post it in a popular format please.
 
Thanks.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on August 23, 2012, 06:00:37 PM
THe zip archive is splitted in 2 files because of the maxbytes limitation here in this forum.
The second part with the suffix txt must be renamed from
my_Replication01+.txt to [size=78%]my_Replication01+.z01[/size]
[size=78%]and you must download the first part in a previous post too : [/size]my_Replication01+.zip
Put both files in one dierctory doubleclick on the .zip file an here you go.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on August 24, 2012, 12:10:17 AM



T-1000      I watched all those links in russian a few times    I understand no russian.   I see excited people and equipment and circuits.   I have a 1000Watt variac/ one constant voltage trafco 15 amps, one LARGE older neon sign DUAL trafco.   Can anyone make a finer detail schematic of the circuit for us?

Here is simplified circuit, hopefully it will be more easy to understand it now.

P.S> Ampmeter1 and Ampmeter2 will show different values in real life situation, you should seek for this condition first.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 24, 2012, 08:05:40 AM
I got PM'd that report.zip is ok. Here is docx file renamed as doc so it will upload.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 24, 2012, 09:37:20 AM
I will start high frequency experiments. I got PC, goldwave audio editor, audio amplifier that can spit out 260 watts of power, nanoperm toroids, and most importantly, lots of beer cause its friday. I might have a few ones if I am successfull. If not then down the drain it goes. So stakes are very high.

I try exact replication first, no fancy winds but just plain coils. With this method I don't think there needs to be power circulating, just power pressure.
Already played a bit, about 5 meters (50 turns) of wire on nanoperm at 15 kHz significantly lowers the audio volume, speaker is in series with the coil. If I put 560 meters of wire interleaved bifilar (several thousand turns), audio volume is much louder. This is fun stuff, and safe.
 
I will try this next:
First one coil, enough turns that nothing is heard when volume is at maximum. Then second coil, more turns so it steps up from 5 volts to 220 volts. I will try different waveforms. Maybe I get amps from audio amplifier and then volts from the second coil that runs the load. Load would then get amps and volts. Lets see what happens.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on August 25, 2012, 09:02:29 AM
Here is simplified circuit, hopefully it will be more easy to understand it now.

P.S> Ampmeter1 and Ampmeter2 will show different values in real life situation, you should seek for this condition first.


YES! YES! YES!!  This helps a lot, thank you from the whole bunch of us T.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: CompuTutor on August 26, 2012, 06:04:14 AM
.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on August 31, 2012, 01:16:56 PM
I will start high frequency experiments. I got PC, goldwave audio editor, audio amplifier that can spit out 260 watts of power, nanoperm toroids, and most importantly, lots of beer cause its friday. I might have a few ones if I am successfull. If not then down the drain it goes. So stakes are very high.

I try exact replication first, no fancy winds but just plain coils. With this method I don't think there needs to be power circulating, just power pressure.
Already played a bit, about 5 meters (50 turns) of wire on nanoperm at 15 kHz significantly lowers the audio volume, speaker is in series with the coil. If I put 560 meters of wire interleaved bifilar (several thousand turns), audio volume is much louder. This is fun stuff, and safe.
 
I will try this next:
First one coil, enough turns that nothing is heard when volume is at maximum. Then second coil, more turns so it steps up from 5 volts to 220 volts. I will try different waveforms. Maybe I get amps from audio amplifier and then volts from the second coil that runs the load. Load would then get amps and volts. Lets see what happens.

Jack

Something is missing. How did you rewound your 50hz transformer ? On schematic connections are marked by dots but what about the direction of winding ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on August 31, 2012, 02:43:33 PM
Both coils always in same direction. If you are uncertain about direction then connect coil across load one way and if it does not work then try other way.
 
I was unable to see any notable effect at higher frequencies. In fact watt meter showed always more consumption than lamp used. I could not measure what went in the trafos, I measured directly from the wall and amplifier was always after it. I think to get more power there would need to be a tank circuit that is pulsed in first trafo and resonance there using cap. After this is achieved second trafo could be used to take the power without affecting the tank circuit. See this link from TK thread:
 
http://tarielkapanadze.ru/science-eng.htm (http://tarielkapanadze.ru/science-eng.htm)
 
No way I dare do experiments like this. I could easily make such a simple circuit and then do a pulse sweep with goldwave. If I would hit resonant frequency voltage would possibly go skyhigh and don't think my PC would like it especially if there would be sparks involved. For a self runner I got now second part of the puzzle (the harder one), first one is explained above. Maybe they already have working second part, did not investigate the site further. Someone needs to carry this on as I do not dare to continue from this point.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Qwert on August 31, 2012, 06:02:06 PM
Hi. I've found recently a patent which (I guess) could be useful for this forum. I don't know exactly to which thread it would fit most, so I select this one since this find is about transformers: Circuit For Transmitting an Amplified Resonant Power to Load

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080297134 (http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080297134)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on August 31, 2012, 08:25:20 PM
Both coils always in same direction. If you are uncertain about direction then connect coil across load one way and if it does not work then try other way.
 
I was unable to see any notable effect at higher frequencies. In fact watt meter showed always more consumption than lamp used. I could not measure what went in the trafos, I measured directly from the wall and amplifier was always after it. I think to get more power there would need to be a tank circuit that is pulsed in first trafo and resonance there using cap. After this is achieved second trafo could be used to take the power without affecting the tank circuit. See this link from TK thread:
 
http://tarielkapanadze.ru/science-eng.htm (http://tarielkapanadze.ru/science-eng.htm)
 
No way I dare do experiments like this. I could easily make such a simple circuit and then do a pulse sweep with goldwave. If I would hit resonant frequency voltage would possibly go skyhigh and don't think my PC would like it especially if there would be sparks involved. For a self runner I got now second part of the puzzle (the harder one), first one is explained above. Maybe they already have working second part, did not investigate the site further. Someone needs to carry this on as I do not dare to continue from this point.


Clock-wise or counter clock-wise ? There is something very strange with winding direction. If you take coil and place horizontally then no matter how you check it  (from right or left side) it is wind on the same direction.
However the same coil when placed vertically seems to be wound differently depending if you check from bottom or from top !  :o Am I crazy or there is something wrong here ?


Because your transformer is placed horizontally we only need to know what direction you have wound it ?


Sorry if I was not clear enough, English is not my native language.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 01, 2012, 10:38:28 AM
In this case winding direction does not matter, only the polarities which you can easily find out by swapping the second coil. In the junction of the two coils polarities must be the same at the same time instant.
 
qwert, I have read the patent and there is usefull information there. Problem with it is that you need to tune it every time load changes. With this setup this tuning is not required, atleast not at 50 Hz frequency when coil impedance is high enough.
 
I will try to make normal tank circuit using goldwave, if I can find resonant frequency somehow then maybe I can proceed.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on September 01, 2012, 06:23:23 PM
Jack,  take a look at this pic posted in the Kapanadze thread by vdomov as the 'secret' to TK's device:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7876/kappy.png

See some similarities to what you have been doing?  I know it's different but the way the transformers are hooked up looks surprisingly similar.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on September 07, 2012, 08:27:55 PM
In this case winding direction does not matter, only the polarities which you can easily find out by swapping the second coil. In the junction of the two coils polarities must be the same at the same time instant.
 
qwert, I have read the patent and there is usefull information there. Problem with it is that you need to tune it every time load changes. With this setup this tuning is not required, atleast not at 50 Hz frequency when coil impedance is high enough.
 
I will try to make normal tank circuit using goldwave, if I can find resonant frequency somehow then maybe I can proceed.

Questions:
1. Did you used secondaries placed on E+I core on center "leg" ? If so then maybe winding direction does not matter. I'm trying to use transformer with 0 core (two "c" cores together) , bobbins are on each side of "0"
2. Do you think that your original modification have the same amount of windings in primary and secondary and the same length of wire (roughly) ? Do you think it may be important ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: kooler on September 08, 2012, 05:14:02 AM
similar ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iT-wtj-o0&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iT-wtj-o0&feature=plcp)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 10, 2012, 06:56:41 AM
Questions:
1. Did you used secondaries placed on E+I core on center "leg" ? If so then maybe winding direction does not matter. I'm trying to use transformer with 0 core (two "c" cores together) , bobbins are on each side of "0"
2. Do you think that your original modification have the same amount of windings in primary and secondary and the same length of wire (roughly) ? Do you think it may be important ?

I have used E-I with two similar coils, toroid using interleaved coils made using Litz wire and toroid using two separate coils and they all worked.
It is worth a try to use step up, but I dont have enough data to prove if it works or not.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on September 14, 2012, 05:25:01 PM
In this case winding direction does not matter, only the polarities which you can easily find out by swapping the second coil. In the junction of the two coils polarities must be the same at the same time instant.

Jack, my english is not good enough. I don't understand this sentence :

"In the junction of the two coils polarities must be the same at the same time instant"

Please give me a clue. ::)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 17, 2012, 08:43:17 AM
Think in terms of poles S and N, polarities. When current goes via coil one end will be S and the other will be N. If you put two coils together and winding direction is the same, you get S-N-S-N. In fact each turn in a coil forms S-N and when connected they form one S-N electromagnet.
Idea is to connect those coils so they form S-N-N-S electromagnet and you connect load to either S-N or N-S. Easiest way is to try the two bulb experiment, first L-coil-bulb1-bulb2-N, then one coil parallel to bulb1. When bulb2 is not lit or dimmer than bulb1 then coil is connected correctly.
 
What is the permeability of your core and what is the DC resistance or you coil ? Can you compute AC resistance (impedance) at your operating frequency ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 17, 2012, 12:00:24 PM
I am trying to make a simple tank circuit but just cannot get it to work. I am using bulb after tank to detect resonant frequency, when it goes out tank would be tuned. Is this correct way ?
Now I am wondering accuracy of inductance calculator, if inductance changes with drive frequency, how can calculator that does not need this frequency as input ever work ? For example, this calculator
 
http://www.mantaro.com/resources/impedance_calculator.htm#toroid_inductance (http://www.mantaro.com/resources/impedance_calculator.htm#toroid_inductance)
 
gives certain L value and when combined with 1 uF cap it says resonant frequency 7084 Hz. When I do a sweep from 7000 to 8000 there is no sweet spot there. I tried brute force method, search over 500 - 20000 Hz using 2, 5 and 10 turns with 10 nf, 220 nf, 1000 nf and 2000 nf caps but nothing showed up.
Can someone give any help how to detect resonance (without using any meters) ?
My idea here is to make tank circuit, then put same amount of turns in the second coil and then take power, possibly putting a series cap between load and second coil. Three possible locations for series cap exist so could test all positions with little effort.
 
It was a struggle to get a step up trafo working at high frequency, normal winding did not work. I had to use layers of bifilar coils, odd layers CW and even layers CCW, then connect those together to maximise output voltage. Now it can give out around 190 watts even at 20 kHz while normal wound gave me only about 25 watts. I measured it by using watt meter in the wall before audio amp and shorted the secondary. It was a nice learning experience, I actually solved a problem lol.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on September 18, 2012, 08:55:27 PM
Think in terms of poles S and N, polarities. When current goes via coil one end will be S and the other will be N. If you put two coils together and winding direction is the same, you get S-N-S-N. In fact each turn in a coil forms S-N and when connected they form one S-N electromagnet.
Idea is to connect those coils so they form S-N-N-S electromagnet and you connect load to either S-N or N-S. Easiest way is to try the two bulb experiment, first L-coil-bulb1-bulb2-N, then one coil parallel to bulb1. When bulb2 is not lit or dimmer than bulb1 then coil is connected correctly.
 
What is the permeability of your core and what is the DC resistance or you coil ? Can you compute AC resistance (impedance) at your operating frequency ?

I cannot measure permeability of core  :( or impedance. No tools. I'm also in first stage - preparing isolation transformer. I dismantled one transformer and added 500 turns for each primary bobbin, converting step down transformer into 1:1 but results are not satisfactory. Probably internal shortcircuit beccause resistance only rised by 6 ohms. Anyway , I have to find coupled capacitor.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 20, 2012, 11:11:44 AM
I was able to make tank circuit and tune it. I started to use 12 volt 5 watt halogen so there was no need to step up. I used 11 turns on each coil (separate coils) on 80000 perm toroid. With only one coil connected I found resonance at 1956 Hz, 1957 Hz was little bit off. Then I connected the second coil and resonance point moved to 2169 Hz. With this setup I was able to replicate the two bulb test, my watt meter showed power was consumed though. This conflicts earlier results at grid frequency, or power is being pushed back. No idea how to check what is happening here.
 
Another test was a sine sweep starting from 300 Hz upwards using the same two bulb setup now with 50 watt halogens. At low frequency the current limiter bulb was lit while load bulb was not. As frequency increased light moved to load bulb. This shows how impedance increases in coils and power begins to go to load bulb instead of current limiter bulb. Watt meter showed the same power consumption during the sweep.
 
One thing I noticed was that my amp made clicks when signal was turned off even when watt meter showed 20 watts was consumed when I was testing plain 1:1 trafo, I quess it comes when power is being switched off and some safety mechanism is activated. But when I used the modified version, there were no clicks even if watt meter showed 100 watts. Maybe this is nothing special.
 
Finally I tested step up version, eleven turns in one coil, second coil 10 meters bifilar winding except coils were connected from the end to form center tap, about 150 turns total. So I got this as shown in the picture:
 
L - 11 turn coil - bifilar start1 - center tap - bifilar start 2 - N
 
all coils in same direction.
 
220 volt bulb connected parallel between center tap and bifilar start 1. 12 volt halogen connected serial between bifilar start 2 and N.
 
This setup gave full brightness to 220V/40 watt bulb while 12 volt halogen was not lit at all. Then I added second 40 watt bulb and also full brightness and now little glow in halogen. Again watt meter showed power was consumed and when signal was cut off no click. No caps here as it worked at all frequencies. Again behaviour of the bulbs similar to low frequency trafos, but conflicting watt meter result.
 
If this is OU, it is not very powerfull. Something is still missing. I tried parallel capacitor between center tap and bifilar start 2 but I was not able to find resonance point between 300 - 20000 Hz. Load light went out completely and core started to warm up. All the power went through the cap instead of coil. Maybe this tuned cap would be the solution to get more power out, or thicker wire in bifilar so capacitance is increased. I think it is worth investigating but I have run out of ammo for now and help is needed from more experienced forum members.
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on September 20, 2012, 11:32:51 AM
Jack

The problem is that nobody so far replicated original circuit. :P   Apparently all commercial transformers are build to eliminate our desired effect by purpose. Most I have found is quite low resistance on primary, mostly 40 ohms for 40-50VA trafos. Now , building own version is very tedious but I  try my best. According to my theory every transformer should be almost 200% efficient in optimal circumstances. Simply saying electric field is what is pushing electrons but magnetic field interactions lag it and disallow light speed. Lenz law for dummies  ;D
Anyway, I will try but my tools and materials are very limited. For example I had a lot of 20 stranded litz like wire from one of synchronization coil from TV but it is in shorter pieces so I don't expect to be able to wind perfectly symmetrical transformer :-(

Would be better if you can post schematics or pictures of you current experiements.

Back to winding "trees" ;) 4 coils times 20 strands and join in series ... ooouch


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: mrzlica on September 20, 2012, 01:00:53 PM
HellO!

maybe this will help you:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11855-eric-dollard-6.html#post209190 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11855-eric-dollard-6.html#post209190)

Regards
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: penno64 on September 21, 2012, 11:24:04 AM
Hi,
 
Coming over to post a link. MRZ has beaten to it.
 
Lets know what you think.
 
Penno
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 21, 2012, 02:56:35 PM
I tried parallel cap and I was able to find resonance point when load was off. But when load was connected resonance was destroyed and current limiter bulb begin to glow brightly while there was only little light in load. So tuned capacitor as I placed in the above picture does not work.
 
Next I doubled the amount of turns in the bifilar coil but it was not good either. I think thicker wire would work better because there would be more copper to collect juice and less ohmic resistance. I used 0.31 mm wire. Did not test this it as I don't have suitable wire. When frequency is increased impedance increases also and we could use thicker wire and less turns. It is enough to use as few turns as possible in the first coil so that it forms high impedance at intended frequency. Then make bifilar coil using enough turns to get desired output voltage. Or maybe yank it to kilovolt range and then put step down trafo as load.
 
I think I have now gone as far as I can go without any measurement instruments. Maybe someone can now continue with more experiments and contribute.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 21, 2012, 03:27:20 PM
HellO!

maybe this will help you:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11855-eric-dollard-6.html#post209190 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11855-eric-dollard-6.html#post209190)

Regards

I built almost similar kind of device several months ago. I used three cores, primary went through 2 cores then secondaries were connected in bucking mode using third core. It was three similar toroidal trafos connected together, very simple setup. One secondary was shorted to itself and power was then taken from the other secondary. Also secondaries in parallel worked but it did not give out any more power. I got about COP 2, 100 watts in and 200 watts out. I was not happy with performance because parts costed 90 Euros + wire cost and I only got 100 watts extra. At that time I had working meter and I used toasters for testing. When I took power, power consumption went down. But when no power was taken there was power going through primary and that was not good. So I dumped the idea. Later on I realised that I could have had better COP by using bigger output core but did not bother to test it. I had three output cores but they were on different toroids. I should have combined several toroids into one core instead. If someone has three 1:1 trafos laying around I can put a diagram of the setup here, one trafo preferrably bigger. The setup caused high frequency oscillations when not connected, cores rattled. I measured random fluctuation between 500 and 2 kHz. When power was taken this stopped. At certain coil length combinations this oscillation was not random and it was fixed to certain frequency, I recall meter showed 2222 Hz.
 
Anyway, trafo setup used here is better because it does not use input power at all even when load is taken.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on September 21, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
Anyway, trafo setup used here is better because it does not use input power at all even when load is taken.
Could you please provide the best video link demonstrating this claim?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on September 22, 2012, 12:16:32 PM
Maybe of topic here, but this setup seems to be worth trying:


Plasma Ignition - Water Sparkplug Circuit by Peter Lindemann


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw)


Even though Peter does claim OU, it's obviously raising the output voltage at the sparc gap . The sparc gap itself is a small capacitor. The Output Energy to the cap is squared to the voltage.
Put another diode or fwbr in series with a HV-Cap instead of the sparc gap. Now you can calculate In and Output Energy. I don't have a clue why putting the HV diode from LV+ to HV+ on the ignition coil has this effect. But experiments of tiger2007 with triodes to use an avalanche effect are similar to this.
http://cyberenergy.ru/generator-kapanadze/ustanovka-tiger-t19-120.html (http://cyberenergy.ru/generator-kapanadze/ustanovka-tiger-t19-120.html)
Peters setup would have a benefit on all electrolyzers.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on September 22, 2012, 01:51:14 PM
Maybe of topic here, but this setup seems to be worth trying:


Plasma Ignition - Water Sparkplug Circuit by Peter Lindemann


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw)


Even though Peter does claim OU, it's obviously raising the output voltage at the sparc gap . The sparc gap itself is a small capacitor. The Output Energy to the cap is squared to the voltage.

When there is half wave discharge and you provide diode to short BEMF rising then there are additional processes are going on in coil. First it will make half-wave resonant oscillation then voltage amplitude rises to maximum and there you get better sparks... :)
This phenomenon is not used much and in case if you make circuit like this, it should start saving energy for transformers when using DC half-wave oscillators. Additionaly when there is capacitor charge/discharge there is explosive energy involved.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 24, 2012, 08:31:03 AM
Sorry I don't have camera to make any videos/pictures. If you have gear to do high frequency tests then you can make the video if it does not work. It will not take much time to wind 11 and 140 turns around ferrite and connect them as shown. This will stepup the voltage so you can drive it using 5 volts and get for example 220 volts at load. The number of turns in the shorter coil is determined by the drive frequency and permeability of the core, enough turns that no power gets through when using just this one coil. I think tuned parallel cap would work also when placed next to shorter coil, but haven't tested. Worth a try anyway.
 
At the moment I am trying to figure out why watt meter shows inconsistent readings compared to testing directly using power from grid. I think I need to make tuned tank circuit in trafo 1 and then connect second trafo using two coils, the original setup. I try to drive first trafo using square pulses, bifilar primary coil connected from end. This should raise the resonant frequency higher and tank circuit should provide longer lasting ring because coil is bifilar. I check if diodes have any effect, most likely one is needed so that tank rings the coil and not the driver. When resonance is found, I change on/off ratio.
 
If this two trafo test is successful, then I would try using lower permeability core in first trafo and higher in second. This should provide feedback to source which is higher than the drive and voltage would accumulate in the tank cap as the feedback is in phase with source. GDT parallel to cap provide overload protection in first trafo and thing should then run by itself, or provide better output. I have a tiny ferrite which I could perhaps use for testing, got it from broken printer. There is maybe not enough room for windings though.
 
Testing might take some time, this is why I put here in advance what I am going to test, maybe someone could try the same things too.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: KateTurner on September 27, 2012, 08:54:40 AM
I had some tests on your supposed project. The reviews are in your favour as efficiency of transformer seemed to be 99%. I'll try to highlight your idea in regional electrical institutes so as to develop it in more efficient way.
_____________________
manuka honey (http://www.comvita.com/health-foods/umf-manuka-honey.html) for skin care.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on September 27, 2012, 09:13:14 AM
Good stuff!
 
Can you describe what kind of trafos you used for testing ? What was the impedance of your coils and power levels you used ?
 
This setup splits the voltage, so a 1:2 ratio could be used to get back to original voltage level. My test trafos started to use power then, but maybe this was just because of my setup. It is worth a try anyway. When coils are uneven, shorter coil gives more amps than volts and longer coil gives less amps and more volts.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on October 08, 2012, 08:56:41 PM
Could someone explain me what is idle current on primary side of transformer dependent on ? Resistance of wire is one known factor of course, what about core size or number of turns ?  I found it interesting that the smaller transformer the smaller idle current but it may be related to resistance of windings when number of turns required is high because of small iron core. Hence the bigger transformer the bigger core and less turns but also bigger idle current :-( Somehow producers of commercial transformers choose the minimum of turns on primary side which makes our testing very hard due to high idle current  ???
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on October 19, 2012, 11:20:12 AM
"Now look at the picture, the second trafo is connected so that as current in one coil goes from left to right, it creates current in the second coil from right to left. Then I feed both currents to load from the same side. When load is connected current on primary side rises for a moment and then it returns back to same level as before."


Jack , would you be so kind to draw schematic with coloured arrows  explaining how you envisioned currents in this second transformer ? Why you think that current flowing from the upper coil do not pass into load directly but rather flow into the lower coil of this second transformer  (is this what you state ? I can only imagine this case when the currents both from the secondary of first trafo (original current) and the current generated inside lower coil of second transformer can go to the load from the same side (left side). Really your help is highly important here. As I finally made a few trafos I will try to help yet I'm not skilled  :-[ .I'll try to perform tests  if circuit could work with my not so pure sine wave inverter Powerware 5115. Later maybe using 20W sound amplifier if possible. I really want to understand this effect which is the real key to OU.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on October 19, 2012, 12:44:38 PM
What happens is my speculation, it might not be correct so it does not make sense to draw diagram about it. There is also an option that watt meter gives me wrong results because load is inductive. Current limiter bulb might give wrong result also, current is going through it but voltage is not high enough to affect light brightness, so this should be measured using proper meter.
 
If you can create the two bulb scenario where limiter bulb has no light but output bulb has light, then measure current that come in and then voltage across L and N, that is between L and both sides of the limiter bulb. If this voltage is close to 0 volts, then power is not being used as much though there is current going, is this correct ? If possible, try to measure using both setups.
Earlier measurement have shown that voltage drop over limiter bulb is only few volts, what does it mean ? Obviously limiter bulb is not using power, but does it mean that the entire circuit is not using any power from source ?
 
As you see, there are still questions that should be answered but I don't have proper instruments. I hope you, or someone else can clarify in detail what is going on in this little circuit when using coils that have high enough impedance. Tank circuit works too so it is not necessary to wind lots of wire for the coils.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on October 19, 2012, 04:13:47 PM
What happens is my speculation, it might not be correct so it does not make sense to draw diagram about it. There is also an option that watt meter gives me wrong results because load is inductive. Current limiter bulb might give wrong result also, current is going through it but voltage is not high enough to affect light brightness, so this should be measured using proper meter.
 
If you can create the two bulb scenario where limiter bulb has no light but output bulb has light, then measure current that come in and then voltage across L and N, that is between L and both sides of the limiter bulb. If this voltage is close to 0 volts, then power is not being used as much though there is current going, is this correct ? If possible, try to measure using both setups.
Earlier measurement have shown that voltage drop over limiter bulb is only few volts, what does it mean ? Obviously limiter bulb is not using power, but does it mean that the entire circuit is not using any power from source ?
 
As you see, there are still questions that should be answered but I don't have proper instruments. I hope you, or someone else can clarify in detail what is going on in this little circuit when using coils that have high enough impedance. Tank circuit works too so it is not necessary to wind lots of wire for the coils.

I have made setup from four 10W 230V to 15V transformers.
I recreated two bulbs scenario, but there is no effect as you described. I proved two things. On idle I have 15,5mA running through primary of first trafo with the help of two capacitors in parallel to primary. When I connected wrongly the second trafo the limiter bulb 25W/230V was lit and current consumption rised to over 100mA before I disconnected it quickly. When I reversed connection the current used on primary side on first transformer was exactly as you described : around 16,2mA or just a bit more then in idle state (I think I could balance it down to idle by adding additional capacitor).
Next I measured voltage on output and it was 115V exactly half of the input (or output of first trafo). Autotransformer theory fully confirmed.

With load of 1W LED light it looked like not consuming more then on idle, but what is 1W, anyway ? I changed load to 7W 230W incandescent bulb and unfortunately noticed rise of current in primary of first trafo from 16 to 25,7mA.  :-X   The main effect you stated is not here : the blink of limiter bulb and then fall of primary current back to idle state !!! I really wanted to see it !  Jack, where is the secret please ?

I measured 1.6V AC  across limiter bulb on idle state , which rised to 3V when load was powered. Between L and each side of limiter bulb (which is connected to N side like you described (L-trafo primary-bulb-N)) I measured fluctuating 238 to 243 V AC so the difference was not visible at first.

There must be something different in my setup , because I can't replicate the effect. Maybe those capacitors across primary of first trafo ? Or maybe the resistance of load bulb tested (7W,15W and 25W 230V) ?

 :-\

One more note - if I shorted the wires where load is connected I've got almost 200mA and bight light of limiter bulb (of course I shut down it immediately).I think for any OU setup I should have no effect on source while testing this way..
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on October 22, 2012, 01:56:36 PM
Voltage drop in the current limiter bulb shows that it is not consuming power but the second is. If considered as a black box then there is amps going in but volts stay the almost the same. So how should power consumed be computed in the first place ? If there is 25 mA going in and voltage drop is 3 volts, then is power used equal to 25 mA * 3 volts = 0.075 watts while you got 7.5 watts bulb lit maybe at 120 volts and 25 mA ?

I am saying you consumed 0.075 watts, prove me wrong. This is the question that would need an answer.
 
There is also the case of harmonics. 50 Hz input signal creates harmonics up 1 kHz according to test report shown earlier in this thread. Is it possible by using a filter to take only the power from the harmonics ? Make a tank circuit on output side that blocks 50 Hz signal, don't know, just throwing an idea which I cannot test. There is another way to create different frequencies out of one drive frequency, I discovered it when I tested three core trafo. I was unable to make anything out of that though, but maybe someone else could. I think this same effect happens in Tesla's rotating pole trafo. To create effect atleast two poles were needed and they are connected together capacitively using coil. Iron coil as a core where poles are (oxidised iron so there is insulation), or using three cores connected as shown in the second thread I made here.
 
You could measure the efficiency of your system and compare. Use two trafo setup and measure efficiency of second trafo when it is connected in normal mode and when it is rewired.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on October 22, 2012, 05:28:29 PM
Well, I proved to myself that it's not a simple OU transformer  :P I have now a few 1:1 trafos to test and that one 20W I have has really minimal idle current of 4,75mA. No luck however. All I measured was drop to 3,7mA when connecting 0.9W bulb but this is easily explained by current avoiding secondary of transformer and going directly to the LED bulb.


I don't understand you computation, I have to think about it more, hmmmmm....... Can you explain it ? Ohm law was always hard task for me . :-[ I think what we expected was current drop in primary of first transformer as indicated by your statements about blink of limiter bulb and then fade back to cold state. I didn't saw that - everytime current was higher then when unloaded and I measured it using digital ampermeter also .  Except one case when the idle current was higher then the current required to power load like in case of 0,9W LED bulb. Then I saw a little weaker glowing filament and then lowered current...


Jack, what I assume is : you didn't told us everything about your original setup, at least something very important which may look like unimportant. Maybe it is inside trafos you have (wire kind, area of winding , core permeability or saturation) , or maybe it is the orientation in space of those trafos ? Maybe they are just placed in such manner as constructing effectively kind of flux path device , like Thane transformer or many others with deflection of BEMF flux ?

Anyway it was busy few days (even more ) to construct those trafos, but I feel it was not wasted time ,because I have now one or two ideas how to use them. I was interested in your setup due to simplicity and because it might prove my theory that every transformer could be made almost 200% efficient (without resonance ) because the magnetic flux ( in secondary and primary) is really free to go if we can eliminate Lenz law effectively.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on October 25, 2012, 11:24:23 AM
I shared everything there is to share, no hidden parts or secrets. What might explain this is the efficiency of the trafos, I had quite efficient iron trafo. If I put bulbs on each side when using it as normal trafo they were almost equal brightness. If efficiency is below 50% then you will not get OU, I think efficiency needs to be closer to 90 %. Some poster said that laminated iron (stepdown ?) E-I trafos are typically 30 % efficient.
 
You could measure efficiency of your trafo in normal mode and when rewired. Is rewired more efficient compared to normal mode trafo ? If so, then what would happen if efficiency of trafo in normal mode is close to 90 % ?
 
As for my view of power computation, power needs volts and amps. The current limiter bulb is showing that only amps go through it but voltage drop is close to zero. So limiter bulb is not consuming power and it does not glow. If you put more bulbs in the load side, then you should see current limiter bulb beginning to glow more and now it is using real power. When current is entering circuit but there is no voltage drop across load then power is not used right ? But the meter is now measuring current and not power so meter does not show power consumed. We should use DSO to get power measurement, not rely that voltage difference is fixed to a certain high value. This is my interpretation anyway.
 
I share your view of 'every trafo can be made 200 % efficient without resonance', and this setup is just about that. So don't dump this experiment just yet, investigate it some more, measure current going in various places and voltage drop, efficiency of your trafos etc. Forget the ohms law, it might not apply here in every part of the circuit.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on November 01, 2012, 06:02:33 PM
Ok Jack I will return to this transformers and make proposed measurements. Btw I checked goldwave sound editor and it can generate only one sinewave , which is quite unusable to sweep over range to find sweet spot.

Here are better ones I plan to check : http://3d2f.com/tags/sine/wave/generator/software/
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 02, 2012, 08:02:56 AM
goldwave can produce all kind of waves and frequencies, check the expression evaluator. Under +Waves list in evaluator there is sweep from x to y:
 
sin(2*pi*(((n/N/2)*(y-x))+x)*t)
 
Below dial tone #, contains of two frequencies. My sample rate was 44100 Hz so constants seem large. DTMF tones are in below 1 kHz.
 
(sin(5912*t)+sin(9280*t))/2
 
So you can program this thing to what ever you need, even stereo output for more exotic tests. You can use full sine or positive sine, just add constants in the expression. Square sweep is
 
step(-int((((n/N/2)*(y-x))+x)*t)%4)
 
%4 controls the on/off ratio. Similar to sine() but now step() function used instead of sine().
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on November 02, 2012, 05:45:59 PM
Thank You Jack I just wanted to help.  I think we need a tool which can do sweep at slow rate while displaying  frequency and able to pause when required still producing output. Such tool would allow to find resonant frequency easily. Sadly I must confess I haven't found such one yet.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2012, 07:02:55 PM
As Jack has described, GoldWave will do what you need in the audio range, it just needs a little programming.

But why not invest in a decent function generator with sweep capability? The FG, along with the oscilloscope, is the basis of any setup for looking at resonant circuits or just electronics tinkering in general.
Any signal generator will allow you to sweep manually, and you can just stop turning the knob when you see the resonant voltage rise on the scope, and read off the numbers from the FG's or scope's display. Most common, low-end FGs these days will cover a range up to 3 or 5 MHz and many also even include sweep function.
I have an old Interstate F34 Sweep Function Generator that I use for coil tuning, letting it sweep automatically, but this is a luxury. It's easy enough to do manually with the right tools.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on November 03, 2012, 07:47:54 AM
As Jack has described, GoldWave will do what you need in the audio range, it just needs a little programming.

But why not invest in a decent function generator with sweep capability? The FG, along with the oscilloscope, is the basis of any setup for looking at resonant circuits or just electronics tinkering in general.
Any signal generator will allow you to sweep manually, and you can just stop turning the knob when you see the resonant voltage rise on the scope, and read off the numbers from the FG's or scope's display. Most common, low-end FGs these days will cover a range up to 3 or 5 MHz and many also even include sweep function.
I have an old Interstate F34 Sweep Function Generator that I use for coil tuning, letting it sweep automatically, but this is a luxury. It's easy enough to do manually with the right tools.

Answer is simple. I'm short on money and function generators are costly. Do you know maybe about any cheap one , maybe extension slot for PC ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on November 03, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
Hi Forest,

If you need to generate more specific frequencies I suggest Octave(which is Open Source).

http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/

Using the chirp function is a snap to generate swept frequencies or any other kind of signal. You can keep changing the parameters until you narrow down the frequency range.

Quick example:

Quote
%Notes:
% - The duration should be set longer than this example for
%better low frequency accuracy
%
% - You can change the starting phase angle which is an
%optional parameter for chirp.

%Clean up workspace
clear;
clc;

%Inputs
StartFreq=1;    %Hz
EndFreq=100;    %Hz
Duration=2;    %Seconds
SampleRate=48000; %Samples per second
OutputFile='MySweep.wav'; %Output filename

%Set time frame
t=1/SampleRate;    %Time period
tp=0:t:Duration; %Time over duration

%Generate swept output signal with chirp (normalized)
OutSignal=chirp(tp,StartFreq,Duration,EndFreq);

%Save generated signal to wave file
wavwrite(OutSignal,SampleRate,32,OutputFile);

You can also play the signal out to the soundcard directly but it depends on if your computer will recognize the command(soundsc). soundsc(OutSignal,SampleRate);
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 03, 2012, 08:08:42 PM
Answer is simple. I'm short on money and function generators are costly. Do you know maybe about any cheap one , maybe extension slot for PC ?
I advise not using PC plugin cards. Unless of course you can afford the quality and performance of NI products and software like LabView.

What is your budget range? Don't forget that your signal generator will become one of the basic and most-often-used piece of gear in your laboratory.

Can you spend a hundred dollars?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5MHz-DDS-Digital-Signal-Generator-Module-Sweep-Function-CPLD-STM32-NEW-/320774544820?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D271094933774%26ps%3D54

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTEK-B-801-SWEEP-FUNCTION-GENERATOR-/360454232368?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D271094933774%26ps%3D54

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Interstate-20MHz-Sweep-Function-Generator-F74-/271036923351?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D271094933774%26ps%3D54

Better hurry, I just might buy that Interstate 20 MHz unit.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 03, 2012, 08:16:04 PM
Hi Forest,

If you need to generate more specific frequencies I suggest Octave(which is Open Source).

http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ (http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/)

Using the chirp function is a snap to generate swept frequencies or any other kind of signal. You can keep changing the parameters until you narrow down the frequency range.

Quick example:

You can also play the signal out to the soundcard directly but it depends on if your computer will recognize the command(soundsc). soundsc(OutSignal,SampleRate);

What's the maximum frequency you can get from a computer sound-card based function generator? I'd feel really cramped if I couldn't test above 50 kHz. The most basic FG that you can get these days will probably go to 2 or 3 MegaHz.... that is, 40 or sixty times higher frequency than you can get with a sound card.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TheCell on November 03, 2012, 10:02:15 PM
Transformer / nonlinear Inductance OU simple Experiment : (and a few others)
http://ut27972.narod.ru/Book_2/109_B_2_p_109.htm (http://ut27972.narod.ru/Book_2/109_B_2_p_109.htm)


Translate with google , move to text below Fig. 2 (24)


(http://ut27972.narod.ru/Book_2/109_B_2_p_109.files/image025.jpg)
Конвертор = Converter = Inductance
<Quote>
When the load in the diagonal series with the lamp converter ( Figure 3 ), there is an unusual phenomenon: converter - passive element comprising besides the resistance, but the ammeter included in the diagonal shows that, despite the loss, the current in it sharply increases, respectively, in the diagonal lamp glows much brighter. [size=78%]<Quote>[/size]
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on November 04, 2012, 01:58:05 PM
Hi TinselKoala,

The max frequency range for some sound cards is around 20khz. A dedicated frequency generator would be better but it depends on how much Forest wants to spend.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 04, 2012, 06:23:45 PM
Hi TinselKoala,

The max frequency range for some sound cards is around 20khz. A dedicated frequency generator would be better but it depends on how much Forest wants to spend.

Most modern soundcards can sample and play at 44 kHz, but 20 kHz is generally considered to be the top end of (young) human hearing. Most adults can't hear much above 14 kHz and many can't hear above 12 kHz. Try it yourself, see where your upper limit is.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

A signal generator based on the 555 timer chip, or the TS3001 or TS3002,  and built with 20 dollars in parts would be far superior, in my opinion, to a sound-card-based system for any frequencies higher than strict audio.

http://touchstonesemi.com/products/timers?gclid=CMLdx4XotbMCFUYw4AodR3oAyQ

http://www.google.com/search?q=555+timer+signal+generator+circuits&hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=IkP&channel=fs&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=a6KWUJ-CNYrG0AG0zoEw&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=1420&bih=831&sei=haKWULzmFLPD0AG1rYHQDg

My largest Tesla coil (air core certainly) has a resonant frequency of something like 80 kHz, and my smaller SSTCs generally resonate in the 300-800 kHz range. You really need to be able to go higher than audio frequencies if you are doing a lot of research involving resonance, standing waves, and VRSWR.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 04, 2012, 08:39:41 PM
forest,

As an option, build one or two of these.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 04, 2012, 08:43:29 PM
forest,

As an option, build one or two of these.
Beautiful work! It's nice that you go into the circuit operation theory as well as just providing schematics.

Printed a hard copy and placed in my electronics library!
Thanks again...
--TK
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 04, 2012, 08:55:05 PM
Thanks TK.

I enjoyed the design work and putting that doc together. Hopefully it has helped a few folks out.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 29, 2012, 09:15:17 AM
I need to ask a question about power measurement in below circuit. Two loads A and B connected to 220 V AC. U1 is 3 volts and lets say I1 is 100 ma. U2 is 120 volts and I2 is 200 ma. This matches the real behaviour of this simple circuit: it halves source voltage and doubles the amps.
Power consumed by load A is 3 V * 0.1 A = 0.3 watts and power consumed by load B is 120 V * 0.2 A = 24 watts. Is power consumed by the system from the source 0.3 watts, 24 watts or something else ?
 
The way I see it is that when power is taken from point B there will be current increase seen at the source but not power increase because voltage changes only slightly. Hence current increase does not mean power increase in this case.
 
Forest, TheCell, can you fill in values of U1, U2, I1 and I2 in your setup ?
 
To make this self run would require use of DC-AC converter and then DC feedback from the output back to DC using diode bridge, possibly step it down without using trafo. Trafo would limit the amount of feedback. I don't have inverter available to make any tests but I think this is how TK makes feedback.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 29, 2012, 02:43:57 PM
What is the "AC" voltage source?

If it is 120VAC or 220VAC, how can U1 be 3V?

You ought to try simulating this circuit for a better understanding of what is going on.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 29, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
In my tests I used 220 V / 50 Hz mains.
 
Simulation does not match real world in this case.
 
We have seen replications from forest and TheCell, I picked up 3 V from forest's results. I think it was voltage drop across bulb A, so this needs verification. Bulb A shows almost no light while bulb B shows light.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 29, 2012, 03:22:09 PM
In my tests I used 220 V / 50 Hz mains.
 
Simulation does not match real world in this case.
 
We have seen replications from forest and TheCell, I picked up 3 V from forest's results. I think it was voltage drop across bulb A, so this needs verification. Bulb A shows almost no light while bulb B shows light.
Please provide a link to any replication substantiating a claim of OU.

If the source voltage is 220V, obviously U1 can not be 3V.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 29, 2012, 03:30:24 PM
At the moment I am not aware of successfull replication. I wanted to ask this question because I think conclusions made from earlier replication attempts may not be correct.
 
But, lets say U1 is 3 volts, would you consider this circuit to be OU or not ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 29, 2012, 08:21:29 PM
At the moment I am not aware of successfull replication.
:o

Why did you say this then?
We have seen replications from forest and TheCell, I picked up 3 V from forest's results. I think it was voltage drop across bulb A, so this needs verification. Bulb A shows almost no light while bulb B shows light.

So in other words, you admit that no one else has been able to achieve OU with this simple circuit, except yourself. And you are not able to demonstrate it by video. Is that correct?

Surely you must know someone with a video camera?

And don't you find it odd that despite the simplicity of the setup, no one else can replicate your purported OU results, and no one else is jumping all over this idea?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 10:00:44 PM
Jack, in your hypothetical, "If" U1 were three volts, then the output voltage would not be 120 volts and the device would not be overunity. "IF" U1 were only three volts _and_ your output values were as listed, and if pigs had wings and takeoff clearance from the tower, you could fly.
But the only way I can think of that U1 could be three volts with an input of 220 VAC, is if the connection of U1 to the bottom wire of the input line is on the other side of that load, which then removes that load's power dissipation from your reckoning. And with that heavy a load you aren't then going to get the output you've listed unless something very strange is going on. At this point we simply need to question the figures given, make sure the schematic is correct, and repeat the data gathering. It is a simple enough process, if all parties are actually rational.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 30, 2012, 09:43:38 AM
poynt99, I said replication, not successfull replication. I should have said replication attempt.
 
In fact, replication attempts show similar behaviour with the bulbs so I think they are good enough to get those figures.
 
So U1 cannot be 3 volts, but voltage drop across bulb A is 3 volts. Only reason then is that voltage on the other side of bulb A and between L is 217 volts right ?
When load at B is increased then also bulb A begins to shine so voltage rises and my watt meter begins to show watts are consumed. I find this odd.
 
I don't understand why there needs to be video so you could see with your own eyes the same thing. Maybe all I got is a measurement error, crappy watt meter, bad behaving light bulbs or bad eye sight. It is also a fact that tuning cap makes bulb A to go out completely while more light comes to bulb B. This is simple enough to try for anyone. If you got ferrite then you can try it using higher frequency and less turns.
If you are into experiments and have suitable trafo to use then give it a go.
 
And btw pigs will fly if you put them in high enough magnetic field. Some university in Holland floated a frog in 2 T magnetic field. Frog was not harmed during experiment.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 11:11:29 AM
Did anyone actually ask the frog how it felt?

The point was that "if" you assume enough counterfactuals to be true you can "prove" anything. There is no point in speculation about conclusions when the input data isn't known.

So once again: we need to verify the circuit schematic, since the voltages cited don't seem to make sense with the schematic pictured.
Then we need to verify the _raw data_. That means that you know the schematic, you know the measurement points, and you run the test, recording numbers. Once you've got data that is real and repeatable and you know where it comes from, then you can start interpreting away, and you can generate new experiments that test .... and try to refute.... your new hypotheses, or guesses, about what is going on.

But if you don't know what the circuit is and you aren't sure of your numbers in the first place.... you've got to get that straightened out before the tower will issue your pigs their takeoff clearance.

This is not rocket science, after all. It's just.... ordinary science. Plodding ahead methodically and dispassionately letting the chips (and pigs) fall where they may.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 30, 2012, 02:14:56 PM
My problem is that I have only watt meter and I am unable to do those measurements, so this is why I asked.
 
There are enough schematics already. Voltages and currents are as shown except for the U1, my mistake as 3 V was voltage drop across bulb and not between L and bulb A as forest measured it.
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
Why don't you "invest" in a couple of low-cost DMMs? I got mine on sale at Harbor Freight for three dollars apiece, and they are very good performers for the price. They don't have the features of a highend DMM like my Fluke 83, but they are adequate for the kinds of measurements you are making. A Wattmeter gives you an indication of power, but power is not energy and power isn't necessarily conserved in the same way energy is. Really, if you have lots of power in short duration peaks, it's easy to make a mistake using power alone as your input and output data. Really, you need an oscilloscope, but for now, just a couple of DMMs might be worth their weight in gold, eventually.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 30, 2012, 03:07:29 PM
Thanks for your advice. I am afraid it does not work for me though as I would need more understanding interpreting the results. I am not interested in money. 'Then why put this under overunity prize category ?' To get attention.  I am sharing everything I come across. Sometimes it is nothing, sometimes it seem to be something. There is no time for learning this stuff from point zero, this is why I came here: to share and ask for help from others that do know this stuff. To continue and advance furthe than I ever could, to get the linux effect.
 
I understand you have some sort of wireless electricity in your house and you have done lots of experiments so you know this inside out and backwards. You must have suitable trafo or ferrite to experiment with, any chance you could look into this in more detail ?
 
Couple of things are interesting. When input signal is 50 Hz, there are harmonics at 1 kHz as it was verified in the report earlier. When I put 20 kHz signal though 80000 nanoperm and use about 40 watts of power, I start to smell metal in the air almost immediately. Is it caused by the harmonics that occur shaking of copper atoms or what ? There is no heat, no sparks, just the smell. Could there be harmonics at 400 kHz or even higher ? Could you take power only from the harmonic frequency leaving driver frequency intact ?
 
You see I have lots of questions but cannot seek for the answers. Maybe you, or someone else see this interesting and could look for answers to benefit all of us.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 30, 2012, 03:29:07 PM
This is all fine and good Jack.

Just refrain from going around claiming that your circuit produces OU, when in fact no one, including yourself has proven it.

All you are doing at this point is speculating. Don't mislead people with your claims.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 30, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
I have proven this to myself using watt meter and bulb in two trafo test. But maybe watt meter is not good for measuring inductive loads, don't know. Maybe light bulb passes more power so that its brightness does not increase.
 
How many minutes you think it would take for a skillfull person to do a measurement if suitable equipment is available ? Five, or maybe ten ? If this is considered to be a waste of time then so be it.
 
I am trying to get a second opinion, makes no sense to debate over such a simple circuit. What matters is the results only.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on November 30, 2012, 05:08:36 PM
Fine, but you are missing the point;

You have NOT had confirmation of OU results from any other party, yet you continue espousing that it is indeed OU.

You have NOT proven this to yourself beyond reasonable doubt; you are only speculating that it is OU based on your poor measurement equipment and method.

Ask yourself this: Would you bet your house on the notion that your circuit produces OU? No, I doubt very much you would.

I would however bet my house that your circuit doesn't, even without testing it.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Lester444 on January 05, 2013, 06:21:06 AM
I don't have the patience to read through all the posts.........

Did anybody notice that this configuration is just a plain auto-transformer?  For a 1:1 winding ratio the output voltage will be half of the input.

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff383/Navigator444/Auto-transformer_zps651b8638.png)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e- on January 07, 2013, 11:15:56 AM

...Did anybody notice that this configuration is just a plain auto-transformer?  For a 1:1 winding ratio the output voltage will be half of the input....


yes, look at my post:

http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/msg331160/#msg331160 (http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/msg331160/#msg331160)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 07, 2013, 12:34:21 PM
This comparison picture shows that setup is exactly the autotransformer. I have noticed that when coils are of different length then it consumes power. But when coils were of equal length my wattmeter did not show any change and lamp was not lit at first trafo when I did two trafo experiment. Also tuning cap made output brighter. Load taken at output did not ahow anything changed at input and this made me think there is something going on. First I did the two trafo experiment, then one trafo and results were similar. In one trafo experiment when capability of the core was exceeded only then power was being used from source. If coils were of unequal length then power was always consumed. So this was it in a nutshell.
 
Current status is that several replication attempts have been made but they did not show anything special for various reasons. Most important is to use windings of equal length and impedance must be high. If anyone can try using secondaries of MOTs that are similar then that would be great. Alternatively any low power iron core stepdown trafo can be used and take secondaries from them and combine as 1:1 trafo. I used 20 watts laminated E-I iron trafos.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Ghazanfar_Ali on February 03, 2013, 09:31:17 PM
Just an idea of mine. Need Comments.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: T-1000 on May 04, 2013, 06:12:04 PM
Hi guys,

Over time I studded what factors could lead such circuit into OU (+second energy source from background) conditions.

What I see related to Jack Noskills stuff are conditions when you have resonance in paralel and resonance in series mixing together on same circuit. Please see my posts with more explanation on it if interested in cross-over thread starting at my post http://www.overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg357338/#msg357338 (http://www.overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg357338/#msg357338)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: bryanwizard on June 06, 2013, 08:33:50 AM
if you experiment the above schematic it will only give you half of the output.

please see it first that you understand basic electronics before posting such stuff.

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 09, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
This is how it ends? What a shame. I think Jack said the truth. But some of you look-at-me-I-know-everything-betters are just unbearable.


Jack, I still think there was some special phenomena going on. Selfinductence, causing opposite energy flow, not only in the primary, but also in the secondary coil, as far as I see.
But since the secondary in connected with Transformer 2, it has a double saturation time. But not only that, Tr 2 is also shortened, so L1 magneticly induces into L2, while L2 induces in L1, with a small delay, probably causing a standing wave.
Tr2 also has the high selfinductense, which makes the whole thing even harder to understand. As far as I see, your phenomen results from the natural resonance of the 1:1 Ts, their harmonies and a slight detuning due to cable lengts etc. that will allow the quasi standing wave to be partially extracted.


Probably this is OU, probably just theft from the power plant since you maybe use their voltage without to actually let current flow, it is however remarkable and I hope you continued with it. Wish you good luck.
I have to say, I'm a beginner in electronics, so my mind is not yet blocked by the dogmata of "accepted science ".  8) 


Took me quite some time to read the whole thread. :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: MarkE on February 10, 2014, 02:50:53 AM
Dieter, this sort of thing has come up before and when carefully evaluated there was never any OU.  The usual problem is confusing real power:  That is power that actually does useful work with reactive power, which is power that gets stored and released.  One can catch and release a thousand fish a day, but they can't cook any they don't keep for dinner.  So it is with reactive power:  It is stored and then released back to the source.  Any fish that we "keep" represent real power.

Low cost power monitoring devices do a poor job of separating out real power from reactive power.  Things with big coils and / or big capacitors confuse such devices.  A self-looping test would be definitive.  If a self-looped test cannot be arranged then the power measurements have to be performed carefully with something like a power analyzer.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: conradelektro on February 10, 2014, 11:29:49 PM

I have to say, I'm a beginner in electronics, so my mind is not yet blocked by the dogmata of "accepted science ".  8) 


I am also a beginner and just learned that it is very difficult to measure the real power output of transformers and coils. It has all to do with the "power factor".

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

Power factor:

The power factor of an AC electrical power system is defined as the ratio of the real power flowing to the load, to the apparent power in the circuit, and is a dimensionless number between -1 and 1. Real power is the capacity of the circuit for performing work in a particular time.

Apparent power is the product of the current and voltage of the circuit. Due to energy stored in the load and returned to the source, or due to a non-linear load that distorts the wave shape of the current drawn from the source, the apparent power will be greater than the real power. A negative power factor occurs when the device which is normally the load generates power which then flows back towards the device which is normally considered the generator.

So, people measure the apparent power and wrongly conclude that they see OU. Unfortunatelly most OU claims are based on naive measurements.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on February 11, 2014, 03:17:46 AM
Well said Conrad. I stayed up late last night trying to read this thread, and I have to say, I do not understand why people would get so mobilized by the baseless claims of one person not even showing a picture showing that he has even built a device, and the claims based on the observation of a couple of light globes.
All it is is a couple of transformers. OMG

I hope people learn from this and discontinue to keep trying things at random, and instead try to learn some basics of electrical theory. Without a solid understanding of basic things like Ohms Law, power factor and Counter emf, people are open to believing almost anything.

This thread shocked me I have to say.

Cheers
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 11, 2014, 04:08:26 AM
Here is just the latest reason for the so called experts in a particular field to mind their own business and stick to their own research and leave the "ignorant and the uneducated" be.

" Discovered by accident

As to the new method, it was pretty much discovered by accident. According to the Boston Globe:

Dr. Charles Vacanti is an unlikely protagonist for one of the most startling scientific discoveries in years.

The genial 63-year-old anesthesiologist who left stem cell (http://www.naturalnews.com/stem_cell.html) scientists shaking their heads in wonder and puzzlement last week, with the discovery that a simple acid bath could be used to generate powerful stem cells, doesn't even have a PhD.

Vacanti is an accomplished tissue engineer and the chairman of the Anesthesiology Department at Brigham and Women's Hospital, but he's a virtual outsider to the highly competitive and fast-moving stem cell field. ...

His discovery is a reminder that as specialized as science is, sometimes, a little ignorance may be a virtue. A stem-cell expert would probably never have even bothered to try the experiment Vacanti has been pursuing, on and off, since the late 1990s."
Learn more:  http://www.naturalnews.com/043843_stem_cells_scientific_breakthrough_pluripotency.html#ixzz2syk6Ekbx (http://www.naturalnews.com/043843_stem_cells_scientific_breakthrough_pluripotency.html#ixzz2syk6Ekbx) 
[/color]

I rest my case...again...for the umpteenth time.

But some people just don't seem to get it, and likely never will...that most significant advancements in a particular field are 'discovered by accident'.

Regards...


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on February 11, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Well I'm self taught mostly, I'm a boilermaker by trade. So what did we discover here by accident ? I don't buy everything the experts say either. I do lots of unconventional experiments, but I don't make baseless OU claims. If I think I find "OU" or extra energy entering a circuit, I would check three times think about it then ask someone else to verify it, someone who I know is competent at measuring power, AC or DC.

Cheers

P.S. Notice the experts are taking notice though, so he might be onto something, biological processes are a bit different to power measurements.

Also treating the stem cells to an acid bath may have repercussions later on for the recipient see the link. So a lot of further research would be required, in my opinion.
http://www.cancerfightingstrategies.com/ph-and-cancer.html#sthash.VObWzpu7.dpbs

The guy is certainly not a novice is he. Vacanti is an accomplished tissue engineer and the chairman of the Anesthesiology Department at Brigham and Women's Hospital

It's a similar situation to an electrician discovering something an electrical engineer didn't. They are both in the same field (medicine) and qualified.

..

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 11, 2014, 04:47:40 AM
All naysaying accomplishes is to stifle free thinking.

Can't you see that ?

You discourage creative thought of other tinkerers with negativity.

Let people find their own way, they may stumble on to something along the way.

Nobody is getting scammed by this concept, so just allow people time and space to dream think build.

Its not that hard...all you have to do is be silent and let things unfold in a natural spontaneous way.

Who knows, you may see something that takes you in the right direction.

But that can't happen when you are making noise and not listening.

Regards...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on February 11, 2014, 04:59:30 AM
All naysaying accomplishes is to stifle free thinking.

Can't you see that ?

You discourage creative thought of other tinkerers with negativity.

Let people find their own way, they may stumble on to something along the way.

Nobody is getting scammed by this concept, so just allow people time and space to dream think build.

Its not that hard...all you have to do is be silent and let things unfold in a natural spontaneous way.

Who knows, you may see something that takes you in the right direction.

But that can't happen when you are making noise and not listening.

Regards...

Your opinion is that it is naysaying. My opinion is that it is saying take another look I think you might be overlooking something. When things go awry is when the claimant replies by saying things like "I know it is OU I don't need to measure it", or "stay out naysayer you are a government shill" when all the person wants to do is help. 

I didn't enter this thread until today. But common sense told me when I read the first page that Jack had no idea if it was OU or not.

..

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 11, 2014, 05:30:23 AM
I am finding extremely hard to believe you are too dense to understand what I am saying.

I will leave it at that Regards...


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on February 11, 2014, 08:53:29 AM
I am finding extremely hard to believe you are too dense to understand what I am saying.

I will leave it at that Regards...

Listen here you grot, I do not care what you believe. And I do know what you are saying. But I disagree.

You don't get to call me "dense" and leave it at that. Ill turn that right back at you and say the exact same thing back to you. I am finding extremely hard to believe you are too dense to understand what I am saying.

Now we can both leave it at that.

Regards
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 11, 2014, 03:37:45 PM
I see you and your ilk on these forums as, at best bullies...who cannot resist the compulsion to dominate all discussion with a superior attitude...I'm sure others besides myself and member 'dieter' can see it also.

At worst, you are here to disrupt all relevant topics.

Not a good choice...but your output needs no scopes or gauges to measure...it is what it is.

Now wood be a good time play on everyone's sympathies with your ill health...again.

As if you are the only one with problems.

I posted that stem cell break through info here for a reason...interesting how you didn't see how it would apply to your health condition...just an observation.

Regards...


Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 12, 2014, 08:21:57 AM
I have a questions for experts:


Why the input light had not light or heat while the output light had light and heat ?


Why the input light did not change a bit when I connected output light ?


Why my watt meter did not notice anything when load was connected ?


First I used two trafos, just to isolate the second one. It behaved the same way, little less output though because of losses in the first trafo. Then I changed to one trafo setup.


Do I really need some power analyser to verify if this is really OU or not ? Doesn't the lights tell absolutely anything ?


I also had a self made trafo in which I could control turns ratio, 2:6, 3:6, 4:5 and 4:4. Only 4:4 gave the effect, all other combinations were such that they affected the source.


Condition number one for any OU device from Don Smith, output must not affect input. And this is what I got here.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: e2matrix on February 12, 2014, 09:09:13 AM
Here is just the latest reason for the so called experts in a particular field to mind their own business and stick to their own research and leave the "ignorant and the uneducated" be.

" Discovered by accident

As to the new method, it was pretty much discovered by accident. According to the Boston Globe:

Dr. Charles Vacanti is an unlikely protagonist for one of the most startling scientific discoveries in years.

The genial 63-year-old anesthesiologist who left stem cell (http://www.naturalnews.com/stem_cell.html) scientists shaking their heads in wonder and puzzlement last week, with the discovery that a simple acid bath could be used to generate powerful stem cells, doesn't even have a PhD.

Vacanti is an accomplished tissue engineer and the chairman of the Anesthesiology Department at Brigham and Women's Hospital, but he's a virtual outsider to the highly competitive and fast-moving stem cell field. ...

His discovery is a reminder that as specialized as science is, sometimes, a little ignorance may be a virtue. A stem-cell expert would probably never have even bothered to try the experiment Vacanti has been pursuing, on and off, since the late 1990s."Learn more:  http://www.naturalnews.com/043843_stem_cells_scientific_breakthrough_pluripotency.html#ixzz2syk6Ekbx (http://www.naturalnews.com/043843_stem_cells_scientific_breakthrough_pluripotency.html#ixzz2syk6Ekbx) 
[/color]
I rest my case...again...for the umpteenth time.

But some people just don't seem to get it, and likely never will...that most significant advancements in a particular field are 'discovered by accident'.

Regards...And your next post: 

All naysaying accomplishes is to stifle free thinking.

Can't you see that ?

You discourage creative thought of other tinkerers with negativity.

Let people find their own way, they may stumble on to something along the way.

Nobody is getting scammed by this concept, so just allow people time and space to dream think build.

Its not that hard...all you have to do is be silent and let things unfold in a natural spontaneous way.

Who knows, you may see something that takes you in the right direction.

But that can't happen when you are making noise and not listening.

Regards...
YES!!!!!!!!   This should be made a STICKY!    Agree 100%
This is not just aimed at Farmhand but is valuable food for thought for everyone.   
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 12, 2014, 09:47:53 AM

Be aware that forums are full of builders whose only purpose is to build and show that something does not work. This is to prevent others trying, why bother because it does not work. You can easily spot these people. Typically they have done lots of builds, maybe some youtube videos, are confident and seem to have knowledge. Some are arrogant while others are seemingly helpful. It must be a full day job building such things.
Would I make hundreds of builds and seeing that nothing works, write about it in forums just for the fun of it ? Nope, because there is no fun in a failure. But if you are getting paid for it, then yes, lots of fun indeed.


How to fight against it ? Be skeptic also when you see something that does not work. Another typical case is that you see a video that shows some device actually working and then you get a schematic full of electronic parts. Then honest peole rush in to build. It will never work. There should always be explanation what is supposedly going on in the device and if the device is complex there should be scope shots from relevant parts.


I have done many tests that have failed. Learned from failure but never posted anything about a failed test. I am not getting paid for failures but I do get a good feeling from a success.


And there are no such things as magnetic domain flipping or field lines occurring in the core when coil is energized. That is one of the finest piece of disinformation there is. When people realize that it is actually a sinewave that runs in the core, a multitude of them depending on the drive signal, then you can build a working OU device.


It is pity that we can only measure electrical energy and not magnetic energy. Magnetic energy is the root of all energy, electrical energy created by magnetic energy is merely a residue. If we could measure also magnetic energy then every transformer would be OU. Input is electrical energy, it creates magnetic energy which in turn creates electrical energy in all coils that are in the path of magnetic energy. Electric energy created in the secondary coil does the same thing. So there is one piece of electrical input, two pieces of magnetic energy output and two pieces of electrical energy output. Did not count harmonics here which get created in the process. You can see this happening in the scope shots of a test report in this thread. There were lots of harmonics visible at higher frequencies. Where did they came from if input signal was only 50 Hz ?


So why we stupid people keep on making systems that are such where all energy is wasted inside the transformer core ?
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: forest on February 12, 2014, 10:18:34 AM
All I can say is that I 100% agree  :D  I suspect also that Lenz effect is purely magnetic because that comply with Newton laws better then current view of energy converted to magnetic field and then to electric in secondary.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: vasik041 on February 12, 2014, 12:06:49 PM
Quote
So why we stupid people keep on making systems that are such where all energy is wasted inside the transformer core ?
Maybe you should learn how perform proper measurements before calling people stupid  ;)

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2014, 03:10:09 PM
Jack, yeah, the naysayers... some of them just repeat their arguments, so you have to skip their replies, unless you want to waste time. But we also need them to some degree, otherwise we'd become kind of a religous trend.


There is a possibility you have to consider: the device may swinig back to mains in a 90,degree out of phase way and cause voltage and current pass the first bulb by one by one and thetefor miss to light it. I hate to say that, but this at least a possibility. The harmonics I guess come from the recursive 2:1 coupling of the shortened secondary.


Try to use a coupling after the wattmeter, like: transform to 12vdc, use a inverter to get mains-like source. Now the wattmeter should read correctly. Does the effect persist?

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2014, 03:16:43 PM
BTW Vasik, he's right, conventional Transformers are lossy, getting warm even without a load.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 12, 2014, 03:23:56 PM
Yes, voltage and current being out of phase is indeed a possibility.


Sorry, I don't have proper gear to do the test you suggest.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2014, 05:13:02 PM
If your device works with a non perfect AC source, just take a car battery, and make it produce some simple ac, eg. with a mechanical alternator system, using a little dc motor and brushes. Then you'll see how fast the battery decharges, compared to when the battery is used directly with the bulb, at the same brightness.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: poynt99 on February 12, 2014, 08:22:36 PM
I have a questions for experts:


Why the input light had not light or heat while the output light had light and heat ?
What circuit does this refer to?

If I was to presume it is some circuit with a series "input" bulb, and a shunt "output" bulb, then this question has already been answered in gotoluc's recent thread, as well as several years ago by me in response to one of Luc's experiments.

It seems apparent from your question that you have not yet attempted to answer this yourself. The answer is as simple as can be. Draw it out and analyze it yourself. There is no mystery about this.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2014, 10:43:18 PM
I wouldn't say that. There is still the recursive tail chaser. And actually, who's to say everything about induction is already explored. Yeah, Galileo was sued for witchcraft, but did he give a darn about it?
I believe there's lots more to explore and it might be a key moment for mankind, to finally get rid of the economical dogmata of science and proceed in evolution.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on February 12, 2014, 11:04:32 PM
BTW Jack, another method to create an ac source is: get a high voltage supply, eg. a joule thief or so, then use a sparkgap and a cap to periodicly load a coil with impulses. By the capacity you define, how fast the cap fills, by the sparkgap, at which voltage the spark will jump. 1mm is 1000 Volt. Id suggest eg. 0.5mm. The coil will be loaded for a moment and then the backemf will cause a negative impulse, so this is kind of AC, might be smoothed with some caps. In Theory, with a 400vDc gap you may create 220V ac, the Hertz defined by the capacitor. The backspark by the back emf should be blocked/utilized...


Well, just another idea for quick, cheap onboard AC. Only some wire and caps required. HV source may be anything, even a weather balloon on a thin wire, or a Neon transformer, MOT, insect killer...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on March 08, 2014, 09:40:29 AM
I see you and your ilk on these forums as, at best bullies...who cannot resist the compulsion to dominate all discussion with a superior attitude...I'm sure others besides myself and member 'dieter' can see it also.

At worst, you are here to disrupt all relevant topics.

Not a good choice...but your output needs no scopes or gauges to measure...it is what it is.

Now wood be a good time play on everyone's sympathies with your ill health...again.

As if you are the only one with problems.

I posted that stem cell break through info here for a reason...interesting how you didn't see how it would apply to your health condition...just an observation.

Regards...

Wow you insult me "call me dense" then when I react you call me a bully, OMG hilarious. Bully is a word children use.

And I was already aware of the stem cell research on problems relating to mine, you think I am ignorant now, you think you know all and need to tell me about it. I never seek sympathy, only understanding that I can not always experiment when I wish. Many of us have health problems and are restricted by them, do they all seek sympathy when stating they have issues. I have a visit with the neurosurgeon next week. Maybe he will fix me again maybe he won't I don't decide the treatment they offer, I only decide if I accept it.

You are the "bully" friend not I and if you want to get personal come to my house and we will see who asks for sympathy, grot. I might be suffering great pain but I can still look after myself.

So where is all the free energy here, I have not posted or "interfered". What happened ?

You know what, I am just about through with trying to get along here. In my honest opinion all the so called "naysayers"/opinion sayers should consider stop posting. Because it is pointless to try to bring logic to most conversations. Let the zealots have the asylum I say.

To you zealots anyone with a differing opinion is a paid shill, it's a pathetic joke.

..

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: jbignes5 on March 08, 2014, 09:33:18 PM



 I think we know who are the distractors here. They persist till the thread is dead. You can tell who they are. Just goto their profile and check their posts. If it is all negative posts then you will know if they are a paid shill or not.
 I believe there is a presence here from another forum and they are compensated for disrupting the flow and direction we are going. The "other forum" is a shill  farm and selling platform designed to milk our community to death.
 You can look at anyones profile and check their previous posts. You can tell by those posts weather they are working for our goal or are highly against this direction we are going in. Check both post quality and number of threads they are posting in to determine what their goal is here on OU.com
 If they are just reading from the holy book of everything then it will be very obvious. Then just ignore them. Do not respond to them and if it is your thread then take control and ask Stephan to remove them if you feel they are not contributing to your thread.


 Yes there is a fine line to censorship but keeping control of your thread should be a priority as well.


 If you are posting to the thread then maybe you should think about what the threads aim is.


 There is some very credible information coming out about certain people who do things on one board and change  entirely on another board. Research the poster on another forum and see how they have behaved there. Also see who has booths at the other forum's paid events. They are more likely to protect an investment with these tactics then if they were doing this for a hobby or for pure research.


  The other forum is a sales platform and if we are not based on that then we are a threat to their income stream. Recognize who you are affiliated with and recognize who the distractors are affiliated with. It's not hard to figure this out.



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 09, 2014, 12:25:24 AM
Wow you insult me "call me dense" then when I react you call me a bully, OMG hilarious. Bully is a word children use.

And I was already aware of the stem cell research on problems relating to mine, you think I am ignorant now, you think you know all and need to tell me about it. I never seek sympathy, only understanding that I can not always experiment when I wish. Many of us have health problems and are restricted by them, do they all seek sympathy when stating they have issues. I have a visit with the neurosurgeon next week. Maybe he will fix me again maybe he won't I don't decide the treatment they offer, I only decide if I accept it.

You are the "bully" friend not I and if you want to get personal come to my house and we will see who asks for sympathy, grot. I might be suffering great pain but I can still look after myself.


..





Boy, he must think everybody here is "dense".

You will notice that he didn't see fit to include the quote where he alleges that i called him "dense".

And of course the reason for that omission is simply that he is lying.

I never did call him 'dense'...I actually said that I couldn't believe he was so dense that he could not grasp a simple concept.

In other words, I was calling attention to the fact that he was intentionally not addressing the issue I had raised....which by the way was not prefaced with any type of "insult".

Twisting words to gain an upper hand on a forum such as this under those circumstances is at best dishonest, and at worst indicative of a paid distractor.

i never called this guy out...it was he who apparently saw himself in my description of naysayers and shills, and thought he'd have a go at me.

Also, closing his post with a veiled threat of physical violence is also very telling.

The rest of his rant is just as insincere, and not worth wasting any more of my time on.

Regards...

 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Farmhand on March 09, 2014, 02:25:58 AM
Hilarious ...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 09, 2014, 02:51:24 AM
And there you have it...a classic example of painting ones self into a corner with lies.

I certainly hope the guy really is a shill...I'd hate to think this is the end result of a bad ego trip.

Regards...
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: ramset on March 09, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
A classic example.......?
 
We the few ,who work for the many will not rest until we do our absolute best.
there is no choice we do not get to pick the voice ,nor step one upon the other
to be noticed.
 
all are needed here and for myself all appreciated,you never know how things may come to be....,by what path or person.?
 
Live Fearlessly and do your best.
 
And absolutelty
 
LOVE IT .
 
Make this your destiny!
 
thx
Chet
 
 
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Google on March 14, 2014, 09:01:40 AM
People fou ;D ;D ;Dght and the thread died a choking death. Why choke threads like this. Lol
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Hope on April 06, 2014, 06:29:19 AM
How is this topic posted here,  it is not a built working device showing COP > 1.  Moderator please move this to correct board.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on April 22, 2014, 12:56:38 AM
Ramset,


bit late, but: i totally agree.


Hope,


And while they're at it, they may also move all other topics to other boards when COP >1 was not verified.  :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: dieter on April 22, 2014, 07:39:41 PM
Hope,


sorry, I came here trough an other forum subsection, the thread must be alias-linked somehow. So, yes, probably not enough proof for applying. A Killawatt Meter isn't saying much, as we know.


Regards

Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on May 06, 2014, 02:52:02 PM
Just a recap, did these experiments:


1. watt meter and one normal 1:1 trafo, no load meter showed maybe about 5 watts. With load it showed about 25-30 watts, don't recall exactly.
2. Added second 1:1, just two trafos in series. Now little less light, meter readings were about the same.
3. Connected second trafo as explained. Now watt meter did not show any difference whether there was load or not. Amount of light was about the same as in test 2.
4. Removed first trafo and used trafo connected as explained here. Same results as in case 3, but now a bit more light because less losses.


So, tests 1 and 2 confirms that my watt meter was adequate.


Now we know that voltage is dropped by 50% and current is doubled when trafo is connected as shown. Looking at test 3, nothing changes from watt meter point of view, it still sees just one trafo connected to it. Why it does not see power taken from the second trafo ?


This is very simple thing to do and measure it. I don't have any tools to measure anything so this is the end of the road for me, for now. Anyone with scope can play with this if suitable 1:1 trafo is available for testing.



Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wistiti on May 06, 2014, 03:38:24 PM
Sorry to ask but when you say:
4. Removed first trafo and used trafo connected as explained here. Same results as in case 3, but now a bit more light because less losses.
What you meen? What is the schematic of your best result? Does it use only one isolation transformer insted of 2?
Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on May 07, 2014, 10:05:32 AM
Sorry to ask but when you say:
4. Removed first trafo and used trafo connected as explained here. Same results as in case 3, but now a bit more light because less losses.
What you meen? What is the schematic of your best result? Does it use only one isolation transformer insted of 2?
Thank you! :)


In test 4 I used only 1 trafo connected as autotransformer. If you look at the pics in page 1 of this thread you will see schematic. It is simply two equal coils connected in series and load taken from the middle. Winding direction does not matter, but they have to be in same direction so use either CW/CW or CCW/CCW.


Purpose of test 3 was simply to isolate from the mains to be more safe to test.
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: wistiti on May 08, 2014, 04:26:45 AM
Hi jack.
Thank you for reply!
So if i replicate this schematic

http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/dlattach/attach/112521/

I have a one to one rasor only socket transformer so i want to replicate....
Can you give me some more advise?



http://www.overunity.com/12487/simple-to-build-isolation-transformer-that-consumes-less-power-than-it-gives-out/dlattach/attach/112521/
Title: Re: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out
Post by: Jack Noskills on May 08, 2014, 10:50:20 AM
Don't use the capacitor. If your coil is high impedance then it will work without caps. I have tried higher frequency mods using caps but cannot say about the results for sure because I don't have scope. High impedance means that when load is not connected idle current should be as low as possible.


Can you make measurements, using scope or meter ?


Using isolation trafo in front would be good to have so you could check testcase 3 what is going on there.


I don't understand what the heck is rasor only socket transformer.