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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 250621 times)

Offline Jack Noskills

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wattsup, did you connect the MOT as I have described ? If not, it is worth a try. The thing is that when current starts to flow, the impedance is lowered in the coils and they create more current. If you measure idle power of one secondary MOT coil and it is flat zero only then it does not work. Some leakage current is needed, but what is the threshold when it still works I cannot say. Could be that microamps are needed, or milliamps. I say it is well worth a try.

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Offline wattsup

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@JN

To try that out with MOT secondaries in 1:1 ratio mode, you will need four identical "beheaded" MOTs. Since most MOTs have the primary on top of the secondary, you will have to remove all the coils on two of them, then remove the primary of the other two in order to then add the two free secondaries. That is a tremendous amount of work right there chock full of risk of ruining the coils in the process.

Then you have to realize that the MOT lamination bulkiness was not designed by chance. In a world were every penny counts, that lamination was designed to move power from the primary of much fewer turns to the secondary of incredible amount of turns and produce the output that it is supposed to produce. Now if the primary is a secondary coil on that same lamination, I fear it will never be able to effect the bulky nature of those laminations and the result will be almost nil, regardless of the connection method.

While we are now looking at Metglass or other high perm cores that would be highly reactive to the slightest impress, working with a MOT lamination would be like teaching a quadriplegic to walk.

From all the tests I have done on your circuit diagram, I think the best way will be with Metglass toroidal cores.

@penno64

I had put that up in 2008 here about midway through this post
http://www.overunity.com/4728/is-lindsays-sm-a-fraud/msg132324/#msg132324

I said relays but I was using 3-way reed contacts that you use for home alarm door/window contacts. Basically you have NC/NO on each reed contacts on there that you pass the primary through the opposite side. When one coil is charged it pulls in the reed to connect power (12 volt battery or other) to the other coil that then connects power to the first coil, etc. There is a link there to another thread that shows a basic diagram.

But I did not want to suggest this to push you away from this thread at all. Just that there are many ways to play around with a beheaded MOT.

Mainly, I would really have liked to see Thane Heins try one of these in his rotating magnet wheel experiments using the MOT as an output coil where the primary side that receives the close magnet rotation is shorted out to produce output on the high voltage secondary. That would have been a good test with something that is easilly accessible to anyone.

wattsup




Offline JouleSeeker

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   Jack - have you considered adding an earth GROUND to the circuit?  I'm seeing this as a way to allow charge to flow into and out of the circuit.  Conservation of charge seems to be strictly required; hope this helps.

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Offline wattsup

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   Jack - have you considered adding an earth GROUND to the circuit?  I'm seeing this as a way to allow charge to flow into the circuit.  Conservation of charge seems to be strictly required; hope this helps.

@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup

Offline RAD-HHO

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deleted
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 02:46:22 AM by RAD-HHO »

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Offline Hope

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That small 2-3% efficiency gain might be had if we wound the coils differently.  The only coil I have ever heard of verified to have the highest know loss-less was 60 + percent above all other coils and this was the Rodin Coil.  Though it's field is compressed and centered (focused) can we also use this idea to boost (by containing) our coils emanations.


This project is interesting and may from using two identical (polarized) coils as primary splits and another two coils identical (polarized)to re-combine in the secondaries.  Would our gains improve yet again?

Offline e2matrix

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@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup
Think F-u-s-e  ... I know you know what that is :)  maybe 2 amp?   
I've seen two lines of thought on the concept of having a ground.  One says you can't get overunity with anything that is grounded.   The other says that ground can provide a source of electrons making overunity possible.  I think both may be correct depending on the type of circuit. 

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Offline penno64

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Hi Wattsup,
 
Thank you so much for the easily understood explamation and link.
 
I have for the last 6 months, being trying as you have hinted, to use the beheaded mots
with what started out as romero/muller generator. It is surprisingly easy to get a high voltage
from a mot used as a gen coil, but near impossible to get any useful current.
 
It seems that the spacing of the mags and the gaps of the mot tend to give a resonable glide
for the rotor. All mags facing same way.
 
Once more, thank you, Penno

Offline a.king21

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@JS

I had been thinking the same thing for days now but have not mustered the courage to try it, fearing a major short and system wide burn out. lol

But come to think of it, I think I mentioned this before that when the standard circuit was running and the bulb was lit at its regular load position, I had scoped each side of the load and found that one side was a good four times higher in voltage then the other side of the load. That seems rather unorthodox for an AC output that should be alternating at the same level from both sides. So maybe the side with the lower output can receive the ground negative.

I am just scared of trying it because the mains line has some good amperage there that could shoot up real fast.

wattsup

A high voltage will always flow into a low voltage. You don't even need a diode.  What do you think would happen if you looped it?  Do you think you would create an infinity loop Kapanadze style?  If so I recommend you put a load in series prior to connection, and just to be on the safe side put a spark gap across the load to act as a current limiter.

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Offline wattsup

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@penno64

No problem.
I found this thread on another forum that may give some insight into MOTs.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/transformer-core-weld-186550/

I was thinking further about using a beheaded MOT on a magwheel, and maybe it will be better to also cut away the side laminations (that is one hell of a job) so only the square center core is facing the rotating magnets. The sidewall laminations may be moving the magnetic impress to the outer end of the coil and now when the magnet is at the center it has to revert it back and this may be causing undue losses. Even if the MOT is placed with sidewalls facing up and down, that extra flux movement may be causing undue cancellation effects.

@JN/@JS

Could not help myself so I took my new transformers and re-did your circuit.
I have a very thick wire that is connected to the house 3/4" copper ground pipe that comes to my desk for quick earth grounding.

So while the trans are outputting I put the ground to either of the output leads to the bulb and nothing changes at all. My ground has effect on devices so I know it is a good enough ground but maybe not good enough for this test. Don't know.

wattsup

Offline T-1000

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Here is Romanov self runner in Russian side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eKi7ol12c4#t=0h44m0s

The main working principle is in LC resonance in series generating pure current with lowest voltage in last winding as possible+ attached BEMF from Joule ringer for pure voltage and with much higher frequency sawtooth wave for mixing up with current. When current is mixed with BEMF voltage in 180 degrees to each other, it adds for summed up power.  Strangely enough, nobody was giving more attention to this...

Here is my quick drawn circuit and signals waveforms:

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Offline TinselKoala

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Ya nye govoryu po-Rooski.... but even I can see that the very first thing he does in the video is hook up a BATTERY... and there is also a bench power supply hooked up too.

Offline Jack Noskills

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Nice T-1000, I think I understood why it works. 50 Hz signal is low voltage and when you add high voltage high frequency you get signal that flips back and forth across zero voltage level. This is needed for induction to occur, higher the frequency the better induction effect you will get. If it would be other way around then 50 Hz signal would be dominant and then you don't get more power out. I think this is not in resonance with the source as it draws from it.
 
Steven, I have tested ground connections in 'my' circuit, no effect what so ever. And I poked all connections, it was safe because I had bulb for limiting current.
 
Beheaded MOTs, lol. I don't want anyone to trash their MOTs, but if someone has one already available then try following test:
 
Connect thin secondary (use E-I here not beheaded)  as L - coil - bulb - N. If light is dimm then you can safely measure idle power using meter. If you have two such MOTs then put them face-to-face, E against E and leave I out of it so there is only one loop in the core. Also leave primaries unconnected. Then connect the similar coil from second MOT as shown, put the bulb back on. If bulb lights up, coil is wrong way and you need to swap wires. When wires are correct way and idle power is low, then you can take power from the second coil. If you take more power than the core itself can produce, only then it begins to draw from the source. This does not happen in two trafo setup. I think it could be used as safe feedback to source if core permeabilities are different. First trafo has lower permeability than second, first trafo would limit the feedback to the level defined by the first core. No infinite increase as it gets blocked by the core, hence no need to have spark gap and its radiation and stuff we don't need. This can be experimented with later once we get one successfull replication and if this scales up to higher frequencies well.

Offline TheCell

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I will get 3 transformers where the cores are not welded from ebay .
They are hard to find .
Maybe we could use 3 phase transformes for experimenting; the 3 primaries are identical therefor theres no need to disassemble them.

Offline baroutologos

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Nice T-1000, I think I understood why it works.... This can be experimented with later once we get one successfull replication and if this scales up to higher frequencies well.


Hey,


Talking and fun is ongoing here (as it should) but yet have not seen original setup running, Jack. What is supposed to enjoy here? Theorizing 101?
:)

 

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