Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83769
  • *Latest: MOKO PCB

  • *Total Posts: 519206
  • *Total Topics: 15464
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 2
  • *Guests: 17
  • *Total: 19

Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 263263 times)

Offline avalon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Avalon.
 
Using TK's unit, I would suspect that standing (or at least colliding) waves may be had
with 2 TX loops connected in series placed apart, with the RX loop in between.
I agree. I also suspect that a properly constructed waveguide might increase the effect significantly.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Nice to see some experiments going on.
 
Look at the two trafo experiment. It showed that input in the first trafo does not change when load is added. If you have watt meter then put it in the mains. No matter what stuff is connected after it that consumes power should not affect. If the coil in the second trafo is connected in wrong way there will be power consumed in the input while output has no power. If you cannot see this effect then something is different compared to my test setup.
 
Capacitor is needed only if idle current should be bring further down. It can be difficult to get it right and if C is off then your results will go down. I had some caps and I was lucky to tune the trafo closer to optimum.
 
Do not use two different primaries in same core connected in series, only one. I tested with two cores so that the coils of the second trafo were across two toroids and efficiency dropped. The nanoperm cores made some funny rattling noise which means that there were created new frequencies which varied all the time. This noise I learned from my previous testing when I still had working meter. This makes me think that two primaries in the same core is also not a good idea.
 
Use sine wave, any other waveform will not replicate my experiment. We need to replace the signal that comes in with one generated in the second trafo and nature is not very good at producing square waves.
Using ratio other than 1:1 will not replicate my experiment.
Using coils with low self inductance will not replicate my experiment. There has to be lots and lots of wire when using grid frequency, or you need to have good luck with C.
 
My nanoperm cores were small, 63 mm outer diameter and permeability of 80000. They had 280 meters of 0.31 mm wire for primary and secondary, I used 63 strand Litz wire so very easy to make. When used as normal trafo it could deliver about 100 watts. The idle current was too high though, around 80 mA when 280 meter coils were connected together. So I started to wind new one, this time I try to put 400 meters of wire on both sides using plain wire. First unwind the litz wire, then wind 10 meters at a time. Very very  time consuming. Been doing that for the past two weeks now, little by little, almost complete.
 
I see there are some experimenters here with access to signal generator, I want to propose a simple test:
1. Wind two sets of wires of same length around ferrite toroid.
2. Feed pure sine wave into one coil and increase the frequency until current drops to zero. This will be the operating frequency. If you cannot reach this level then add more wire until this condition is reached.
3. Connect the coils in bucking mode as shown, use the frequency found in step 2 and begin from low voltage.
4. Put some load and observe the current going on in primary. If possible use same load as current limiter on primary side in case something goes wrong. You dont want to burn your equipment.
5. Crank up the voltage, carefully.
 
Understand, output does not affect input. What does it mean ? On the input side you have charge banging back and forth which is reduced only by coil resistance, the resonance condition. Each bang creates copy of it on the output side which you can use. Since output does not affect input, input is not slowed down and power is not consumed. Input side is happily running at full speed while output side is giving out power. Now I am using 50 Hz frequency and I suspect that with 400+400 meter toroid I can light up 150 watt halogen lamp without consuming any real power, I just need the pressure. Now, imagine frequency is cranked up to 1000 times. Will I get the charge 50000 * 2 times per second and 150 * 1000 watts out ? I think so but I dont have the equipment to move to this level.
 
I do not write this stuff to keep me warm. I am looking for help to explain/replicate why output does not affect input and then improve on that. Also, why the power is close to zero at N line while there is power in the output of second trafo ? If you connect two lamps in series between L and N they are both lit to same brightness. When connected as shown, why there is power in the lamp at output of trafo but there is no power in the lamp near the N line ? I dont think this is normal.
 
I do not ask for people to go and buy lots of expensive stuff, there are already others that have correct equipment to do a simple test that will take atmost one hour of their time. If you can do this test and it does not work then lets debug it and improve this thing together, this should be R&D thread.

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Steve/wattsup, how did you measure the idle current in primary ? It occurred to me that maybe this is the difference if watt meter is used. It shows 2 watts consumed by coil resistance, not what is going through the coil. I measured it with light bulb like this:
 
L - primary coil of trafo - light bulb - N
 
There was very little light on the bulb, current is below 40 mA. When two coils were connected to get it in OU mode then this went further down. This happened with iron core and with nanoperm core. I need over 2*280 meters of 0.31 mm wire when using 80000 perm core to get it in this mode. When using iron core which has 5000 permeability there needs to be more wire. This makes me think that maybe trafos that you guys are using are not suitable for replication without tuning capacitor.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Sponsored links:




Offline baroutologos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
Jack,


its not about peoples' trafos and your trafos. its just what you say does not work.
One major mistake is that idle current - choked by impedance - could not be similar or even less when the bulbs is run per your configuration. No way per my view.


And yes, the idea of running a choke with an inverter (or signal generator sine wave) of adjustable large frequency till achieving choking inductance (almost null current) for given voltage, makes sense assuming the basic concept worked in plain 50 Hz iron trafos.


we have not seen anything so far contradicting enstablished electrical views my friend :)

Offline a.king21

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1611
Jack, I personally think you may be on to something which is why I am on this topic. Can you be a bit clearer in your instructions please? For example you ask us to wind two coils on a toroid. I am sure you know what you mean, but there are many different ways to wind a coil. ie bifilar? cw-ccw, twisted pair, litz etc etc. Really, a picture of what you mean would help us enormously.
I am not using pure sign wave, but I noticed in one experiment that the transistor producing ac started to smoke! lol. Fortunately it recovered later.
So something is happening, I am not sure what yet. Please.... clearer instructions, it will save us all time.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Sponsored links:




Offline Tito L. Oracion

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement, >:(
 Arrangement >:(


 :-X


 ;D


 ;)

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
The original picture was missing a dot to note the starting point, that was fixed in later pictures. I cannot make that picture any more clearer.
 
The iron trafo version had two separate coils winded on a boppin. The nanoperm version was made using litz wire, just one winding until space run out. Then I connected individual threads to form two separate coils. So it does not matter if coils themselves are separate or interleaved. Also winding direction does not matter as you can always swap the other coil to get polarities right. The 400 meter version is not ready yet, that is made using two different coils on opposite sides so it is like the iron trafo version.
 
For higher frequencies I think two wires side by side would reduce L which might mean you can use higher frequency and get more power. Also thicker wire should be better.
 
Only thing that is needed is to get the coil in high impedance state and the good thing is that you dont need caps to do it. This is achieved with frequency, permeability and wire length. I can only play with grid frequency which means lots of wire. This would be the ultimate free energy device, simple to build and low cost.
 
If you have a driver ready but it puts out square waves, then put that through one 1:1 trafo to get sine wave and use that towards second trafo to get the same effect I see. Square waves might work, but sine wave is perfect for this one.
If still unclear, just ask questions and I try to answer, and there are no dumb questions. It is important to get the misunderstandings out of the way before you proceed.
 
Your mosfets burning could be because of square wave driver, you get higher kicks back as replacement is not perfect. Working principle of this setup is to replace the feeding signal with same signal so the impedance does not change. High impedance means high ohms which prevents current flow from AC source and this is what we want to keep. Sine wave cannot replace square wave, they are in same phase but there is something happening when square wave and sine wave occur in the same coil.
 
When you get this right and begin testing, start from low voltage. Energy is taken from the magnetic field created by 'something' when current goes in a wire. If you take too much, this 'something' might show unusual behaviour like cooling of the environment or reduction of weight or something else. I am not saying that this happens with this, but it is always better to start from low power and gradually increase.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Sponsored links:




Offline JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
@Jack --   Glad to see you back!  just saw your latest posts.   It's late here now... let me read your posts more thoroughly and get back to you, tomorrow.
 - Steve

Offline wattsup

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2608
    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
@Jack --   Glad to see you back!  just saw your latest posts.   It's late here now... let me read your posts more thoroughly and get back to you, tomorrow.
 - Steve

Ditto that for me as well.

But I have to say that using two standard isolated transformers with laminated iron, using only one primary/secondary per, making the connections in every which way possible, nothing was evident, loaded - amps go up, unloaded - amps go down and adding various capacitors  trying various locations only increases amps draw.

I have also made connections in many irregular ways with some pretty "freaky" results but all of that seems to be just standard expected outputs under those conditions.

I do also realize that the connection method you show does imply a really out of the ordinary method and given that this is driven by simple mains 60hz sine wave, one would have expected a straight short circuit condition, but no, it does provide output to a bulb although not OU. Still it is interesting.

It would be advisable that you measure your primary/secondary coil impedance, resistance, and let us know this vital information as without it, we would be continuously shooting in the dark. hichic.

Also, 0.31mm wire is around 28awg. There would be no advantage for using litz wire is such a case. In your description of winding, I am getting the picture that you wound 280 meters per primary in 10 meter lengths. Do you mean that you made 28 sections of 10 meters, wound one on top of the other and all paralleled or put in series.

I think the best choice would be to hire a toroid company to d the winds as per a specific build spec. I know @stivep has a toroid winder that he just got working but wonder which size toroid you would need to wind 400 meters of 28 awg wire. So no wonder ours will not work because the resistance of 400 meters at 28 awg will be pretty high compared to what they use to make these off-the-shelf standard transformers.

wattsup


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline baroutologos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 918
Hey wattsup,


indeed in that arrangement (maybe dig out from an old electric art book) we have current multiplication at an expense of voltage drop . In the original arrangment, i theorize (although not theory at all) that current at best is doubled and voltage halved across resistor (bulb).

If you0 had a triffilar 1:1:1 isolated transformer you could achieve i supoose current x 3 at best at an expense of x 1/3 voltage across bulb. Although novel arrangement in the eye of contemporary electricians, i tested and (although in an non similar setup ) and can see no magic. :)

Show us some magic.. Jack!

Offline JouleSeeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
  On this end, I put together another build of Jack's, using this time two 1:1 toroidal trafos (photo).  Like Wattsup, I have tried various things -- but the best I have been able to do so far with off-the-shelf matched trafos is about 88-95% efficiency = Pout/Pin.  I find that as long as I use CONSISTENT  methods for input as for output, the ratio Pout/Pin is about the same between methods.

  I've learned a lot (I think) taking measurements by various means.  The photocalorimeter I'm using (a fancy name for a light box) has been very helpful in discerning when output power REALLY goes up or down.

   It is a fun build, educational -0- thanks, Jack, and hopefully you can tell us more pointers.  Wattsup mentioned some questions -- I would ask just how you measure Pinput and Poutput; its always good to re-check those measurements. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Resistance of coil I used in iron trafo (5000 permeability) was 165 ohms, very thin wire, 0.0x mm. Coil is about 10 mm wide so it is very dense.

Resistance of 280 meter Litz nanoperm (80000 permeability) is about 45 ohms. I cut 10 meter piece of 63 strand litz and winded it on core. When one layer was complete I continued on top of previous. I think I got 5 layers this way until I ran out of space. In the end I had 63 10 meter coils and after build was complete I got two coils each formed from 28 10 meter coils in series, 280 meters. I used litz only to make winding job easier, no other purpose. Litz trafo looks messy with 63 wires sticking out, my 4 year old kid called it the tree: 'Daddy, are you making those trees again ?' I made 5 of those but now I have only one left as I needed to test other stuff, not much success with those though.

Resistance of 400 meter nanoperm trafo is about 68 ohms, outer diameter of the core is about 63 mm, inner 48 mm. With coil on it inner diameter is about 12-15 mm. I got it ready yesterday but did not had enough time to play with it. I got 150 watt halogen to light up in normal trafo mode, not sure if I got full brightness but it is pretty damn hot as my desk starts to smell bad. 10 meter lemgths are in series separated in two different sides. Entire trafo weighs 899 g/ 1.978 lbs, plain core weighs 186 g/0.410 lbs. The idle current of one 400 meter coil is still too high when compared to iron version, it can light up 40 watt bulb. When I connect those 400 meter coils together, idle current without load is such that 1 watt led light flickers, 7 watt energy saving gas lamp puts out no light. This is good enough but not perfect, it is better than 280 meter nanoperm as I thought it would be.
 
I cannot measure impedance, but it must be pretty high if it can block 25 amp mains that spits out 220 volts below 1 watt when two coils are connected together. With iron trafo one coil is enough to block it.
 
With these specs (is there enough ?), how does your trafos compare with mine ?
 
As I dont have any meter I measured the 2 trafo version using 40 watt bulbs. With no load I got dimm light on primary side, below 10 watts for sure. With 40 watt bulb as load on secondary I got it up to 30 watts, no change on light level on primary side. When first trafo was iron and second was litz nanoperm light on primary side went down and output bulb was brighter. With parallel cap in the second trafo light on primary side disappeared and output bulb was still brighter. This made me think I have something usefull going on.
 
Steve, I see your trafos are about the same size as mine, what is the resistance of your coils and permeability of the core ? Did you try reversing the coil that is parallel with load in the second trafo ? You should see major difference. What about idle currents without load ? If it can light up bulb (in series with those two coils in second trafo) without load then it will not work too well. I suspect that this is the problem now, impedance is too low and input power bypasses load and goes via coils. This will certainly ruin the OU effect.

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Did some testing with 2*400 meter nanoperm.
 
Normal trafo mode, I put 170 watts worth of bulbs on primary side, 150 watt halogen lights up on secondary side but not too much light. Primary side show bright light on every bulb, normal trafo effect. If I bypass the bulbs with thick wire I got more light on output but there a lots of amps going as the primary gets hot to touch. Core seems to saturate and it is unable to deliver this power to output. I am unable to see any light in 300 watt halogen in this mode.

Generator mode, same amount of bulbs on primary side and no light in any bulb, not even a faint glow. 150 watt halogen is brighter on load side when compared to normal trafo mode. When I bypass lamps this time, halogen gets brighter but there are no amps flowing like in normal trafo mode. 300 watt halogen lights up but it starts to draw current as there occurs faint glow in the bulbs. So if load takes more power than core can create only then it starts to suck power from the mains. With two trafo setup this does not occur as there is trafo infront which limits the draw.
 
Both nanoperm versions I have are not good enough to be used as the first trafo because of high idle current. Only the iron trafo is good. With iron trafo in front and 400 meter nanoperm as the second there is no light on primary side and bright light on output.
 
If someone has metglass high perm C core then experiments would be much easier at grid frequency as you dont need to wind toroids.
 
Only thing left for me would be to buy watt meter and measure what comes in. If output waveform is rectified sine then most likely it would give false readings for output power, so does not make much sense to measure it like this. And DSO and stuff like that are out of my reach. This is low power and I am not interested in getting few hundred watts for free, high frequency is the next step. This would require signal generator and oscilloscope which I dont have. So for now I am relying on forum members to investigate this further and I have put information what could be done next.

Offline Qwert

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
Resistance of coil I used in iron trafo (5000 permeability) was 165 ohms, very thin wire, 0.0x mm. ...

Yeah, that's really thin. I would say, that's no wire at all. I know, that's not a mistake; it's within this range, but anyway, somewhat more specific...

Edit: sorry, I wrote the above just after reading the first sentence. In the later it explains satisfactorily.

Edit: since I already interrupted this precious thread' spirit, I want to use it for my (maybe not my own) purpose: somewhere within last two or three months in another thread I posted my idea to try an idea described in this document: Otto's TPU notes
Since it requires using a trafo and some other equipment which I do not possess, may somebody try this? I consider to finance (from my frugal resources) the additional (pretty expensive) material used in this project, for one or two serious guys.

Offline T-1000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
If you are winding up custom 1:1 trafos, you might try this winding configuration and see results  in Jack's circuit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcd_QCLK5w#t=0h12m22s

The main difference there between Litz wire and bifilar layer is - the magnetic field concentration and resistance removal when each layer is winded on bifilar mode. It is like forcing two magnets stick with same plorarity ends (you might try this and realize magnetic field configuration and strength on junction point and from sides). Also if you will wind primary on bifilar layers mode, your secondary should be on side  of primary not on top. On toroid it would be half toroid with primary and second half with secondary.

Would be very interesting to see results on this... :)

P.S> In http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg330683/#msg330683 I explained theoretical part of it.
 

 

OneLink