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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 258241 times)

Offline gyulasun

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--------------------
I played with:
1) A 1 to 1 small trafo (measured Henries: about 0.350 H primary and secondary).
2) A signal generator (see picture) (and also an home made 555  +  Mosfeet square wave gen).
3) And old hammeg HM207 scope.

I have noticed that, with *square* waves:
These square waves "morph" into nice sine waves when you approach the resonant freq of the
trafo (about 170 KHz in my case). A trafo as also some (small) capacitance. No?
When I reach this very freq the 'peak to peak' voltage is multiplied by more than ten.
Beware: no load here! No 'OU' claimed.

Anyway, I did not know that you can transform square waves into (more apparent 'voltageable')
sinus waves with a mere 1:1 trafo should you reach the right freq. Did you?
Of course, with a sine wave you can also observe a voltage multiplication at resonance.

Very Best from Brest,
Yann

Hi NerzDishual,

The same "phenomena" happened with the MEG setup when the builders tuned the input pulse generator to find the highest output voltage amplitude and they found a sinus or very much sinus-like waveform as the peak output across the trafo's secondary coil.  I agree this occurs at the trafo's resonant frequency i.e. putting this more precisely, it occurs at one of the trafo's coils resonant frequency.  (of course if trafo has several different coils then there can be as many resonancies as coils.)  In the MEG case the secondary coils were in the Henry range, (5.7H with Naudin's metglas core coil, http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm ) and the coil's self capacitance (a few pFs) constitutes resonance with its self inductance and you can consider the secondary coil as an LC tank kicked by the input pulses via the primary coil which has much less number of turns and acts like a coupling coil to the LC tank.  And at resonance, the voltage and current is sinus wave across and inside the tank provided the loaded Q (figure of merit) is reasonable high like say 8 or 10 or higher.  Away from resonance the voltage and current is not sinus wave across or in the tank of course.

Greetings,  Gyula

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Offline JouleSeeker

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  Good points, Nerz and Gyula.
Quote

'Why not using at least DC input? With a DC bat and an inverter, for ex."

  As usual, reliably measuring Pinput and Poutput is crucial to our progress.  (Sorry to sound like a broken record, repeating myself here...)

Offline wattsup

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@JouleSeeker

Thanks for your PM. I will send you an e-mail tonight from my home office.

As for testing with the two recent transformers, up till now I have not seen anything out of the ordinary. I tried connecting in many ways but again nothing special besides what I showed in the last video, that is basically running the transformer at near short circuit with good output, but not OU.

Also tried by putting a 250v 35uF capacitor in many points but again nothing but increased input consumption.

I don't mind about buying the transfo's because I will be using them in the TK tests as well to simulated TK adding his looping transformer.

The only real curiosity is how this is working in terms of applying a AC input then jumping the output of the first transfo to the second and the effect this has on the second output. This can be shown with scope A and B at various places to show the phasing differences. If there is anything really interesting in that, I'll make another youtube to show it.

But with the new tranfos my efficiency rate is never as high as when I used those toroids that were 2 x 120/2 x 12. This is pretty incredible when you thin the 120 to 12 step down is giving me better results then a 1:1.  @JN did mention that the core material may be important and I can see that part of his reasoning to be correct since these standard laminated cores are not giving anything near the toroidals.

So, I cannot at this point certify that @JN is just full of really hot beans. lol

But let's just say the pot is simmering in that direction. lol

wattsup


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Offline TinselKoala

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People were doing reliable power measurements on circuits with complex waveforms long before anyone had digital oscilloscopes, or even digital cameras and calculators.

As I think .99 can affirm, a manual power computation procedure using an analog oscilloscope can produce results that are typically within a few percent of those obtained by digital scopes or even directly from simulators. And of course the computation of instantaneous power produced in this manner -- by multiplying instantaneous voltage by instantaneous current -- fully accounts for power factor.

It's all a matter of resolution and attention to detail. If you are willing to sweat and concentrate for a couple of hours, you can get results with a few hundred dollars of gear (a good analog scope and a digital camera) that are _as accurate and precise as your measurement technique can produce_ even using an oscilloscope that costs ten or _a hundred_ times as much. Of course the DSO will give you the result in milliseconds.... but is it really worth it, to get a fifth or sixth digit of precision, when you cannot possibly do better than three with your standard probes and wires and component tolerances and such?

@wattsup: try putting a good fast diode in series with your capacitor, and repeat your tests looking at the DC voltage across the cap.

Output power measurements can be reliably performed using a "photocalorimeter". Choose a suitable incandescent light bulb for your power levels, and make a light tight enclosure for it. Use a CdS photoresistor and a regular resistor to make a "potentiometer". Feed the voltage output of this potentiometer to one input of a 741 op amp configured as a single-supply voltage comparator. Use a real, 20 turn precision pot and a turn-counting knob for input to the other input of the 741. Have the output of the 741 turn on an LED when the comparator sees the voltages on the inputs equal. Calibrate the system with known DC power input to the bulb.  Input your unknown, note where the knob position is when the LED changes state, feed known DC in until you get the LED to change state at the same knob position.
Less than ten dollars worth of parts and milliWatt accuracy if done right.

Offline TinselKoala

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I'd also like to "inject" a theoretical point here. In a transformer, the voltage of the secondary depends significantly on the rate of change of the voltage, hence the current, hence the magnetic field of the primary. So for the maximum voltage rise in a secondary, you want to get the maximum rate of current increase in the primary: drive with as square, fast risetime pulse as possible, and you will get the maximum voltage in your secondary at the resonant frequency. The importance of a fast risetime pulse for maximum voltage is masked because of core materials. They do not allow the benefits of fast risetime and virtually unlimited magnetic field strength because of saturation and viscosity effects. This is why air-core coils, trafos if you like, are used for extreme HV purposes like radio transmitters and Tesla coils.


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Offline MileHigh

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Just a few basic building block thoughts.

Any transformers will have resistive losses in the primary and secondary wires and in the optional core material as everybody knows.  There are also losses associated with the stray changing flux that does not take part in the power transfer mechanism.

For Wattsup, it's pretty easy to deduce why you got poorer results with the 1:1 transformers.  Naturally they are designed for higher power, and the relative losses at higher power become really low.  But at lower power there is a "background loss" process that is fixed in value (more or less) and it became significant at lower power.

The larger core volume in the 1:1 transformers means that there are way more magnetic domains to flip for each cycle.  Many have seen the "hysteresis loop" for magnetic core material.  It's the area inside the loop that is equivalent to the lost energy per cycle.  So a physically larger core has a correspondingly larger hysteresis loop and hence more energy lost per cycle.

A simple analogy or example of a hysteresis loop is when you compress a pillow.  When you remove your hand from the pillow the pillow does not push back with the same force.  So energy is lost between the "push in" and the "push out" and that heats up the pillow.  So a pillow has a mechanical hysteresis loop that can also be measured.

MileHigh

Offline Kator01

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Hello Tinselkoala,

but you either tune the output with large capacitors fot the range of 50 Hz or you tune the input-frequency.
Now this has been shown in the basic transverter-video ( still no ou has been achieved, because the output is pure reactive power which is hard to extract )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo


Regards

Kator01

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Offline NerzhDishual

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Hi very witty, clever and active OU guys!

I would like to thank some people here.

It sounds like that:
- We do not need wires (at least one wire is sufficient!)  = we do not need
(official) electrons/current to charge up a capacitor and to light some 'lamps'.
Thanks to Lynx. See: Joule Lamp.

- We do not need (official) electrons/current to perform electrolysis save this
(fictitious?) "displacement current". Thanks to Chistopher Robert Eccles.
See attached (one) Eccles  patent. "Fracture cell apparatus" - GB 2.324.307A R.Eccles.pdf

Thanks also to "Frederic David Tombe" about "displacement current":
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf

- We can use pure reactice power.
Tanks to Kator01 for referencing an informative vid.
 
Topic appart:
- Homeopathy does not need molecules. Thanks to (Late) Jacques Benveniste.

So, all what is called kinda 'fictitious' by Mainstream Science seems to actually  be "solid". Seems it not?

Very  Best from Brest,
Yann

PS: please, just an off topic question to "Nikola Tesla" Backward spelled:
Did your self running magnetic motor were faked? Or what?




Offline TinselKoala

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Hi very witty, clever and active OU guys!

I would like to thank some people here.

It sounds like that:
- We do not need wires (at least one wire is sufficient!)  = we do not need
(official) electrons/current to charge up a capacitor and to light some 'lamps'.
Thanks to Lynx. See: Joule Lamp.

- We do not need (official) electrons/current to perform electrolysis save this
(fictitious?) "displacement current". Thanks to Chistopher Robert Eccles.
See attached (one) Eccles  patent. "Fracture cell apparatus" - GB 2.324.307A R.Eccles.pdf

Thanks also to "Frederic David Tombe" about "displacement current":
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe47.pdf
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/science/tombe48.pdf

- We can use pure reactice power.
Tanks to Kator01 for referencing an informative vid.
 
Topic appart:
- Homeopathy does not need molecules. Thanks to (Late) Jacques Benveniste.

So, all what is called kinda 'fictitious' by Mainstream Science seems to actually  be "solid". Seems it not?

Very  Best from Brest,
Yann

PS: please, just an off topic question to "Nikola Tesla" Backward spelled:
Did your self running magnetic motor were faked? Or what?


Well, all I can say is " as a thing is viewed, so it appears."

Those who use what mainstream science calls "fictitious" or rather, pseudoscience.... aren't going to go very far in their efforts. If what you are seeing appears to violate some strongly held physical principle or law.... the first thing you should do is to carefully reevaluate what you are seeing, and take another look.

Well, I wasn't intending to get into this here, but if that last video is topical, then... in response to that last video and the comments about reactive power and so on.... here I demonstrate ZERO wires power transfer, NOT broadcast, at high efficiencies, using AIR CORE resonant coupling, extracting LARGE AMOUNTS of real power from the reactive power in the power supply to perform useful work, apparently violating inverse-square falloff with distance and providing a "hook" or path by which other energies might enter the system from elsewhere...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIC47PN1-ys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK90_CbnAeY

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Offline NerzhDishual

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OK, Tinsel... and so on.

Obviously, you really did your homework.
Obviously, you are very knowledgeable.
Obviously, you are a very good experimenter.
Obviously, you are a very clever individual.
Obviously your English is far better than mine (of coarse)...

Obviously, (IMO, :) )) your EGO is as huge as the Fujiyama.
I have a great respect for you but I do not like you.
I also do not fear you (at all) BTW.

Obviously, you have not answered my simple question:
Was your very running on magnets only motor a fake?

Obviously, Backwarding 'things/names/etc... is a Satanic way.
What is your (hidden) agenda?

Le bonjour vous va, cher Monsieur,
Jean-Yves

Offline TinselKoala

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OK, Tinsel... and so on.

Obviously, you really did your homework.
Obviously, you are very knowledgeable.
Obviously, you are a very good experimenter.
Obviously, you are a very clever individual.
Obviously your English is far better than mine (of coarse)...
However, my French is execrable, much worse than your English. But you knew that already, didn't you.
Quote

Obviously, (IMO, :) )) your EGO is as huge as the Fujiyama.
I have a great respect for you but I do not like you.
I also do not fear you (at all) BTW.

I cannot express how very heartbroken I am that you do not like me. After all, my ego requires that everyone love me unconditionally. If they do not, I immediately have to make myself a cup of strong coffee and watch a TeleTubbies episode to regain my composure.

Quote
Obviously, you have not answered my simple question:
Was your very running on magnets only motor a fake?

Obviously, your question isn't simple at all, and of course it has been answered many times. If you are referring to the Overconfident OCMPMM, I really cannot recall the inventor, Overconfident (may he rest in peace), ever making any claims of overunity performance for that device. None of the demonstrations that I have seen, and I have seen many, require the assumption of overunity or extraordinary behaviour of any kind to explain. Only if you are _looking_ for an overunity device, will you think you _see_ one.

Quote
Obviously, Backwarding 'things/names/etc... is a Satanic way.
What is your (hidden) agenda?

Le bonjour vous va, cher Monsieur,
Jean-Yves

On the contrary, "backwarding" or anagramming things/names/etc. has nothing at all to do with Satan... because you see, friend Jean-Yves.... Satan does not exist. Obviously.... there is evil in the hearts of men, that is certain... but it is perfectly human, not supernatural at all.

However.... as a thing is viewed, so it appears.  If you believe that I am somehow evil or Satanic, based on the fact that my internet alias is an anagram of my mother's maiden name, Stella Nokia ....... I believe that says more about you, than it does about me.

 ;)

ETA: Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. If I have an agenda, it's not hidden at all. I want people to stop making silly mistakes !! It would also please me to see them learning to use their test equipment effectively.
 

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Offline T-1000

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDMT6lSeEo

Now if you add this resonant LC circuit as transformer in series to another transformer and make current phase difference from voltage more than 90 degrees, the funny part begins :)

To take out reactive power, you will probably need either current transformer or transformer with bifilar layers interconnected primary for maximum voltage in LC part and capacitor like winding in secondary for maximum current output. When current separation from voltage is done, it is all good.

Offline JouleSeeker

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TinselKoala (clever name, as Jean pointed out) wrote on p. 10:
Quote
here I demonstrate ZERO wires power transfer, NOT broadcast, at high efficiencies, using AIR CORE resonant coupling, extracting LARGE AMOUNTS of real power from the reactive power in the power supply to perform useful work, apparently violating inverse-square falloff with distance and providing a "hook" or path by which other energies might enter the system from elsewhere...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIC47PN1-ys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK90_CbnAeY

Intriguing vids, would like to understand better.  In your "supernova mode", the bulbs are very bright but the input power is also high.  I see that and the frequency shift for this SN mode - but what is going on here?  some sort of resonance-coupling, or what?  Pls explain.

The titles with these vids includes the term "electric OU"... Are you claiming OU?   (I think not; but would appreciate the clarification of the term "electric OU".  Indeed-are you measuring output power, quantitatively, or could you?)


 PS -- I like your term "photocalorimeter" -- this is what I've been practicing with my calibrated light-box.

Offline wattsup

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@TK

Don't fret about name calling members.

Even thought this is not @JN relevant, your videos with Tx and Rx effects is just great.

I have questions about your set-up.

1) On the Tx side,  since your voltage reading does not change (fixed voltage applied) and only your amp readings is increasing in certain conditions. So where is the amps read in series?

2) If the voltage reading is parallel to the Tx circuit feed and the amps is in series with the same location, I would like to know if in your Tx circuit after the feed, is there any full bridge rectifier that is isolating any possible return from your Tx coil back towards the feed side that may be the cause of the increase in amperage reading.

Meaning, is it possible, if this is DC pulsed Tx, that the receiver receives this DC pulsed Tx, hence a signal that goes on and off is exchanged, but when the Tx is on, the Rx is off, and when the Tx is off, the Rx is on. If this is the case then this may explain your Nova mode where when the Tx if off, the Rx is transmitting to the Tx, and when the Tx is on, the Tx is transmitting to the Rx so in essence is it possible that both Tx and Rx are both Tx-ing and RX-ing to each other in a loop that produces the Nova mode.

3) In your video, while you were playing with the third loop on the left of the Tx or between the Tx and the Rx and this increased the Rx fan speed, I could not help but realize you were showing, in a way, @otto's ECD function were all that is missing in yours is a mobius loop were half is Tx and half is Rx that feed each other to increase output. (Maybe a bad flash in the brain but when you were adjusting the third loop distances, @otto's ECD just jumped out at me given his loops had about the same distances.

When @otto was doing his ECD experiments, he had reported that under certain conditions his power supply voltage and amperage readings were just going haywire. I have seen this happen many times myself but we know this is not indicative of a dramatic increase in power consumption but rather the voltage and amperage readings were showing a high return of flyback from the pulsed device.

I guess the base question is...

4) How does the Tx side realize it needs more power as seen by the increase in the amperage readings you are showing under certain conditions? That is a big one to ask.

wattsup

PS: @JouleSeeker

Just saw your post that is in the same line as mine.

Offline TinselKoala

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TinselKoala (clever name, as Jean pointed out) wrote on p. 10:
Intriguing vids, would like to understand better.  In your "supernova mode", the bulbs are very bright but the input power is also high.  I see that and the frequency shift for this SN mode - but what is going on here?  some sort of resonance-coupling, or what?  Pls explain.
It was not my intention to "hijack" this interesting thread. However, it does seem that my work lately has been relevant to this thread's topic and that of one or two others.
I too would like to understand the phenomena that I illustrate in the video. I believe that there is some mutual influence, mutual coupling, that alters the resonant frequency of both the sender and the receiver until they are mutually resonating. It could be happening in just the receivers or in both units; I have some videos where I can get the SN mode in one receiver without affecting the performance of others at all.
The system operates at a minimum of about 500 kHz though, so the sizes of the loops are really too small for "antenna" type effects to happen, I think. The "swr" match must be terrible, and this may be part of why it performs the way it does.
Quote
The titles with these vids includes the term "electric OU"... Are you claiming OU?   (I think not; but would appreciate the clarification of the term "electric OU".  Indeed-are you measuring output power, quantitatively, or could you?)


 PS -- I like your term "photocalorimeter" -- this is what I've been practicing with my calibrated light-box.
Indeed I can measure output power quantitatively, but it requires some definition. Would you like to know the reactive power circulating in the transmitting loop? It is quite large, involving an oscillation at between 500 kHz and 1 MHz of 40-60 v p-p and high peak currents. This is "recycled" accumulated or stored power though, like the spin of a flywheel. The transmitting loop, which is at minimum 2 or 3 strands of solid #12 house wiring, gets perceptibly warm during prolonged operation.
Would you like to know the RF radiated power? It depends on the input voltage of course, and is close to (but below, of course) the input DC power. Would you like to know the power levels received by a receiver? This is the easiest to measure and of course depends greatly on the position of the receiving loop wrt the sender. The brilliance of the bulbs is one indicator, as is the speed and torque of the electric motor when used; less visible is the temperature of the receiving capacitor which does get quite warm during operation. I have not done precise quantitative measurements of the power dissipated in the bulbs using the photocalorimetric method yet, I'm still trying to figure out what some "standard conditions" might be.

Electric OU? What do I mean by placing such a term in the titles of these videos? No, of course I am not claiming that this device, OR ANY OTHER DEVICE that I have examined under that title is presently exhibiting overunity performance.
What do people mean when, on this forum, they title threads with things like "self running" or "game changing OU device to hit market in (last) October" or "consumes less power than it puts out"? Do we think these titles are misleading, or not? Have we ever actually seen a self running device, or one that consumes less than it puts out, or one that's on the market? I don't think so.
In my case, I mean that I believe that my work is relevant to some of the things I see here, relating to the search for electrical devices that do exhibit unusual performance. After all, my devices like this present wireless system, or my various Tesla Coils and magnet motors like the Marinov Slab..... do exhibit _behaviours_ that people here sometimes mistake for OU performance. And of course, when I examine the work of others involving claims of electrical OU, those explorations will generally appear under that heading in my videos.

But you may find the alt.snakeoil Video Reports more interesting in the long run--- although no real snake oil actually makes its appearance in any of them.

 

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