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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 266687 times)

Offline wattsup

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  It's refreshing to see someone take suggestions and quickly proceed with actual testing -- thanks, Wattsup.
  Your vid is still processing as I write, but I look forward to viewing it.  Glad you went ahead and got the Kill-A-Watt meter also; it may prove useful as we go forward.

@JouleSeeker

The only real reason I am pursuing this is because of the following reasons;

1) The device for me is a level one device, meaning is uses standard mains plus off the shelf components that can be easily replicated by anyone around the world. This is the ideal OU device (when it works). hehe

2) My TK works have stalled because I am waiting for a circuit to be built for me by a local EEer. He says during this week it should be ready.

I told you so.
Why you wasting my time posting these faulty results.
Taking measurments the correct way is critical otherwise you don't have to do this kind of research and especially don't post results unless you are clear that they are accurate.

@microcontroller

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. You are right about that.

Basically this exercise now shows that anyone doing output measurements with a clamp on ammeter where the output is in the single decimal range CANNOT BE TRUSTED. That's the learning part of this. One the other hand, yes, I deserve all the flagellations for not seeing that myself. Sorry again. But imagine all the youtubes out there showing such an output with a clamp meter.

This time you changed setup and variac seems is needed component for effect in your case. It acts as first tuned transformer...
Just leave power meter before variac and everyone will be happy :)

@T-1000

I put back the Variac. It consumes 0.04 amps and 4 watts on its own, regardless  of the level being from 0 to 120 VAC when no load is applied to the Variac. With the Variac and the system load, there is no change for the better on the DC output. But I still have some good ideas to test today. This is all small play right now until I receive my real isolated transformers.

But at least we can now say that on the AC output, one side of the big bulb is showing low voltage but the other side is showing a very high voltage rather reactive energy output even when loaded with the bulb. Without the bulb one would expect a much higher reactive output. So there is a low level and a high level output on the AC side and maybe the low level side can be used to pass through some other coil, etc, before it goes to load. But in an AC output, should not both sides be the same level since it is always alternating? When measuring for DC voltage, it shows zero.

Maybe @JouleSeeker can expand on that with his device.

wattsup 

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Offline guruji

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Well i don't know what to say.
I did not disable a reply button or anything else so if you are not able to send out a Private Message i wonder who's the idiot.
This makes me think you don't know something about anything.
That must be the reason why you ask idiot questions am i right?

Also, i share too i build and tested the experiment in this topic yesterday, you can see the results on page 6.
kNOWING ISN'T THE SAME AS TESTING, SO SHARING WHAT YOU KNOW IS NOTHING COMPARED TO SHARING YOUR TEST RESULTS.
This means your still in on the game since test results have got nothing to do with you asking idiot questions.


You see you're don't know what I was referring to. Atleast remember on what topic you talked to me on. Ok I'm not going to continue on this nonsense. I hate ping pong arguments who's the best.
Have a good day.
Bye bye.

Offline wattsup

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@all

Also, we can say that with a 120v/12v Dual toroid transformer set-up, it came close, not close close, but close, so this bodes well when I get my 120v/120v set-up going. I just got a call from my supplier saying the transformers are in so tonight we can start again. This time...... no mistakes.

wattsup

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Offline JouleSeeker

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  Yesterday I purchased a 400 VAC cap @ 5 uF and 45 uF -- and I checked the C values with my meter.

  I placed the cap in parallel with the primary of trafo 2, according to the circuit suggested by Jack Noskils -- but I have not attempted "tuning".  I simply used the C values that I had on this cap.

  The results @ Vin = 122.5 V and Vout = 70.1 V (approx) -- at these voltages, I have checked as explained above and the Kill-A-Watt meters work just fine.

1.  Without cap
Pin = 23.4 W;  Pout = 17.8 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 76% with these trafos.

2. With 45uF cap
 Pin = 37.8 W;  Pout = 17.8 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 47%  -- interesting that Pin went up with this, so that eff went down.

3.  With 5 uF cap
 Pin = 23.4 W;  Pout = 18.0 W; eff = Pout/Pin = 77% a modest improvement.

See photo.  Any ideas?  I have toroidal 1:1 transformers on order...

Offline a.king21

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Jouleseeker:
 
Did you try reversing one side  of the transformer connections in case your transformer coils were wired the wrong way?
I find it makes a difference, although my specs aren't near Jack's -  so nothing to shout about. - Except reversing connections and repeating the experiment does make a huge difference.
Good Luck.

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Offline baroutologos

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guys,


before we start squeezing our heads, devise setups and applying ideas (although fun), we must consider in the first place. What are we after?
Jack no skills said that! OK he said a clever and interesting arrangemet.. furthermore claimed OU.


Any proof of that? photos of setup?  Crystal clear videos with appropriate measurement equipment placed as suggested? (Pin and Pout measurment)
What the hell with this forum that anyone suggesting the impossible (?) is treated as gury and demi god, whereas the burden of proof lies on the replicators! lol :)


My hunch is telling me, jack, saw his profound mistake as he claimed "input series bulb is dim and cold whereas the output is hot so it must be OU", and i said " current is not a energy index, since different voltages are in play.


Am i wrong?


Offline gyulasun

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Hi baroutologos,

I agree with you, we have not seen any proof yet...  Somehow Jack avoids reflecting on such questions like a simple photo of his setup.

"The input series bulb being dim and cold and the output one is hot" method is not good at all for making conclusions, unfortunately, you are correct the input and output power is what should be considered, not the brightnesses.

Hi Jouleseeker,

'Tuning' the primary coil of the 2nd transformer can cause phase shift in the coil current and voltage and in case the 60 Hz resonance in the primary is approached the primary becomes a high impedance coil as any parallel LC does, and this involves a smaller input current into that primary and higher reactive currents inside the coil/capacitor. If your primary coil's inductance could be measured at 60 Hz, then the resonating capacitor value can be calculated, in this case you could see what effect this may have for the efficiency.

Gyula

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Offline MileHigh

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Baroutologos:

I didn't want to say anything because I end up being labelled the "bad" guy but finally you said something and I will take this opportunity to expand on what you said.

To the people in this thread, go back and look at the very first posting made by Jack.  Take a serious critical look at it.  What do you see?

It's more like what you don't see.  There are no critical measurements made at all.  It's all just subjective anecdotal stuff like "This light bulb is dim and the other light bulb is brighter."  That means almost nothing if you don't know anything about the actual voltages and currents and possible phase relationships for the input and the output.  There is nothing like that in the first posting and it's also very obvious that Jack is a beginner.

If you want to take my advice you should all go back and seriously debate Jack's first posting and the points he makes and decide if what he says has any merit.

Beyond that there are other issues but they don't even need to be discussed.  The first and foremost issue is the first posting in this thread.  Is it legit or not?  I am not implying any deception being made by Jack at all.  It's all about the proposition and the measurements (or lack of measurements) and the logic that is being proposed in the first posting.

In a way, this is a microcosm of the original RomeroUK building frenzy.  There were big unanswered questions (Can you show us the output of the FWBR bus?) and as a result people went crazy on a building frenzy with incomplete data.  Just a few simple questions would have busted Romero and would have prevented a whole year's worth of useless experimenting.

MileHigh

Offline Flux It

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Baroutologos:

I didn't want to say anything because I end up being labelled the "bad" guy but finally you said something and I will take this opportunity to expand on what you said.

To the people in this thread, go back and look at the very first posting made by Jack.  Take a serious critical look at it.  What do you see?

It's more like what you don't see.  There are no critical measurements made at all.  It's all just subjective anecdotal stuff like "This light bulb is dim and the other light bulb is brighter."  That means almost nothing if you don't know anything about the actual voltages and currents and possible phase relationships for the input and the output.  There is nothing like that in the first posting and it's also very obvious that Jack is a beginner.

If you want to take my advice you should all go back and seriously debate Jack's first posting and the points he makes and decide if what he says has any merit.

Beyond that there are other issues but they don't even need to be discussed.  The first and foremost issue is the first posting in this thread.  Is it legit or not?  I am not implying any deception being made by Jack at all.  It's all about the proposition and the measurements (or lack of measurements) and the logic that is being proposed in the first posting.

In a way, this is a microcosm of the original RomeroUK building frenzy.  There were big unanswered questions (Can you show us the output of the FWBR bus?) and as a result people went crazy on a building frenzy with incomplete data.  Just a few simple questions would have busted Romero and would have prevented a whole year's worth of useless experimenting.

MileHigh

Very well said.

Numbers mean more than opinions and and this needs numbers to be validated, not opinions. Would I love to see the numbers-yes

The BS not so much...

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Offline Lynxsteam

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I don't spend energy on being negative (story below).  I'll leave that to others.  I have said a couple times in this thread that my experiment with two 1:1 torroids showed "joule thief" like results.  Joule Thief circuits amaze but it is just a transformation of power into another form.

For those of you still exploring this, do me a favor and try this:  Feed the circuit with 120 vac but through a common wall mount dimmer.  The dimmer chops the AC sine wave into a saw tooth.  This will simulate the rapid on off we get with a transistor.  My guess is you will see the "Joule Thief" like result I saw.  When the field collapses in the first primary there should be a spike in the secondary.  This spike gets doubled in the second transformer because the voltage is additive if its in phase.  Amperage should drop.  If you feed this spikey voltage to a resistive load it will just convert to watts.  If you feed this spikey high voltage to something other than a resistive load it might be interesting.

I left my fiance with my Triumph TR4 while I was on a business trip.  When i came back I asked her for the key.  She handed me the mail box key.  I told her that wasn't the key and she said "yes it is".  I told her, "I know the key to my car and that isn't it".  She said, "Well that's the key i have been using".  Sure enough the mail box key fit the car ignition.  From then on in life, I am slow to say someone is wrong.

Offline JouleSeeker

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Lynx asked:
Quote
For those of you still exploring this, do me a favor and try this:  Feed the circuit with 120 vac but through a common wall mount dimmer.  The dimmer chops the AC sine wave into a saw tooth.

I did just that, feeding the dimmer directly from the mains.  The efficiency did improve somewhat, from about 76% to 83% (without cap).  120.2V in  20.2W Pin  69.1Vout   16.8W Pout, eff = 83%

With two trafos; which is pretty good considering that the Pout/Pin for a SINGLE trafo (one of the pair) is about the same and here we are going through two.

Adding a 5uF cap // to TR2 gave essentially no change; adding a 45uF cap dropped the eff to about 47%.   
   I put two dimmers in series, then into the dual-trafo; eff = 81%, a little less/about the same. 
 Adding a second 40W bulb, eff ~80%, about the same.
I replaced the two 40W bulbs with 2 7.5W LED bulbs, and the eff dropped to about 50%

I also tried switching connections, this time on TR2 output -- and the eff went down to less than 40%.

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Offline Magluvin

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Lets say we have the original circuit, 2 trafo's and the load across 1 coil of the second trafo. What is the input with and without the load connected? Is there much difference?

If not, does the output to the load equal the difference of input with and without the load?

Just something to try. If the difference in input is smaller that what is output to the load, there might be something in the mix. ;]  Simple enough to try.

MaGs

Offline wattsup

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@all

I have done my set-up with my new isolated transformers and did not see anything out of the ordinary in the regular connection. I am putting down the same diagram as @JN did on page one but this time I am identifying each side of each coil so that guys can speak in terms of connections and "polarities".

I am saying polarities because even though this is AC fed to A-B, hence AC is transferred to C-D, once the AC from C-D hits the point E from one side and point G plus one side of the Load, the game changes, but how? It seems like the AC is forced into one directionality that would have one side slightly off phase. 

Anyways, when you set-up this circuit, you may have to change connections around and test the set-up in all variables while still keeping the diagram disposition intact. If you do that then you will eventually find the set-up I just made that is pretty freaky.

So I am also adding some info on my new transformers.
They are presently hooked up on all sides in the 120 volts mode.

But it depends on the transformer model, you start with this one below in one connection method, then just start switching the connections around to only one coil at a time.

I uploaded to youtube the following video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hfbVE4Hfo

Now going to work so tonight I will make a diagram showing the connections in that video.

wattsup

Offline a.king21

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Hi, wattsup
re dot convention.  Should there be a dot at E in your diagram?

Offline T-1000

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I uploaded to youtube the following video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7hfbVE4Hfo

The wattmeter most likely shows measurent error. In best case you could find 100W+ 1 Ohm resistor and attach to "cold" wire from mains in series then put oscilloscope on resistor and see RMS amps.
You are mixing reactive power comming back from transformers with conventional power so funny things happen. :)

 

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