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Author Topic: Bessler , Karl I! The fat lady is gonna sing , haters bring it I'm not skeered .  (Read 63112 times)

Offline johnny874

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   @All,
 Here is a modified version of Mt 20 with Bessler's quuote. I "harnessed" the horse in front.
This allows the "horse" to be attached to the long lever.
 His Quote;
     
"No. 20: Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."- Johann Bessler
 
edited to post smaller pic  :D
 btw, the round points on the ends of the short levers are not weights but are designed to confuse someone hoping to find an easy solution to Bessler's wheel. Other wise, it would have been solved long ago.
                                                                                        Johnny874
       
 Chris, I just gotta mention this, it isn't "I ain't skeered", it's I "hain't skeered". My mom was, is and always will be a hillybilly.  :o 8) 

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Offline EMdevices

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I can relate to the enthusiasm expressed here.   I must of "invented" about 5 or 6 different Bessler wheels  at different times in the past, and each time I was 100 % sure my invention would work this time exactly as I imagined.    My logic was flawless and very clever, how could it not work I thought!   The euphoria and emotional "high" that such a mental invention generates can not be underestimated.  The eureka moment is too powerful, and can not be kept to ones self, you have to share it.   But the unfortunate thing is that after much effort to build the invention, you find out it does not work and the ensuing emotional low is hard to stomach.  The higher the euporia the lower the depression.  But, there is always a principle that was overlooked, or something new to learn, which is all worthwhile in the end, but at what cost!   




Let's talk about the wheel and the eyewitness accounts.


One of the most telling accounts is the one from Willem Jacob  http://www.besslerwheel.com/accounts.html

[/i]When I turned it but gently, it always stood still as soon as I took my hand away. But when I gave it any tolerable degree of velocity, I was always obliged to stop it again by force; for when I let it go it acquired in two or three turns its greatest velocity, after which it revolved at twenty-five or twenty-six times a minute.[/i]



Note that the wheel comes to a stop if moved gently, but if moved a bit rapidly it accelerates.  This is a huge clue, and put together with other statements illustrates the principle of operation.


In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel and it keeps going by virtue of momentum and kinetic energy stored in its motion, but in the case of the Bessler wheel, the initial velocity is not storing energy in kinetic energy of the wheel, but what it does instead is store energy internally by either compressing a spring or shifting weights to one side, which is a lot different.   


The main point is this:  the overbalance of the wheel occurs under motion and is a DYNAMIC PROCESS, not STATIC, so the wheel is OVERBALANCED only when in motion.      This point is very important because if anybody tries to think up overbalanced diagrams in a static configuration they will never find the solution.  I wasted so many hours thinking in Static mode until I realized this principle.   


So, the way I imagine the wheel mechanism is quite simple.    Eight  pendulums, that only swing out to one side, and centrifugal forces displace them only under dynamic motion.   




I feel another eureka moment coming on.   :P


EM







« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 06:14:36 PM by EMdevices »

Offline norman6538

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Emdevices,
Thanks for your report
I've experienced several Eureka-I got it for sures myself too.
I had one yesterday that failed. The idea was to shift the center of
gravity up and the mechanism worked but did not shift the CG up.

This is a great point.

"the eyewitness accounts".

It does reveal a great deal.
Centrifugal force certainly would account for the eyewitness account.

I just can't believe its gone all these years and no one has stumbled onto
the Bessler secret yet.

Thanks for the useful discussion....

Norman



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Offline Thing

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Hi
Gravity is good and from the have to be possibilites get out power for homes. Here is littlebit more

Thhing

Offline Thing

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some things more

Thing

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Offline johnny874

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  @all,
 MoRo answered the dynamic motion question in his thread, centripetal force yields overunity.
 M x V squared divided by R equals inertia.
 This means that a 1kg weight moving @2ms with a radius of 1 meter would have the force of 4kg,s.
 And if leverage increases it,s force 2 or 3 times, then it would have 8 to 12kg,s of force.
 What ever moment I had came anx went a couple of years ago. This is more like a second job but it doesn,t come with much more than a heacache.
 
        Johnny874

Offline WilbyInebriated

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In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel and it keeps going by virtue of momentum and kinetic energy stored in its motion, but in the case of the Bessler wheel, the initial velocity is not storing energy in kinetic energy of the wheel, but what it does instead is store energy internally by either compressing a spring or shifting weights to one side, which is a lot different.   
::)  yeah pffff... name one perpetual motion machine. your claim that "In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel" is asinine. no such thing exists.

The main point is this:  the overbalance of the wheel occurs under motion and is a DYNAMIC PROCESS, not STATIC, so the wheel is OVERBALANCED only when in motion.      This point is very important because if anybody tries to think up overbalanced diagrams in a static configuration they will never find the solution.  I wasted so many hours thinking in Static mode until I realized this principle.   
the main point is this... you are wasting time and energy on a flawed principle based upon the flawed assumption that bessler was bona fide, when in all likelihood he was confused if not an outright liar. a bessler wheel has no more chance of working than say... a hydro differential pressure exchange system. ;)

So, the way I imagine the wheel mechanism is quite simple.    Eight  pendulums, that only swing out to one side, and centrifugal forces displace them only under dynamic motion.   
so, looking at some alleged quote from bessler (even with the assumption that he is being truthful) tells us nothing. it's validity and veracity cannot be verified. and... we all know gravity is a conservative force. ::)

I feel another eureka moment coming on.   :P
followed by yet another emotional low... :P

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Offline johnny874

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  Wilby,
 LMAO :-D
You just made the point be was trying to make about tne quote.
 With a little push, the weights moving downward generate little inertia, with a more forceful push it will square the velocity imparted onto it.
 The difference between 1 squared which is 1 and 2 squared which is 4 is 3.
 1 extra ms adds 3 ms in inertial force.
 It does matter.

    Johnny

Offline WilbyInebriated

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  Wilby,
 LMAO :-D
You just made the point be was trying to make about tne quote.
 With a little push, the weights moving downward generate little inertia, with a more forceful push it will square the velocity imparted onto it.
 The difference between 1 squared which is 1 and 2 squared which is 4 is 3.
 1 extra ms adds 3 ms in inertial force.
 It does matter.

    Johnny
LMFAO indeed.... no it doesn't matter. or you would have a working wheel wouldn't you... ::)

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Offline EMdevices

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Quote
the main point is this... you are wasting time and energy on a flawed principle based upon the flawed assumption that bessler was bona fide, when in all likelihood he was confused if not an outright liar. a bessler wheel has no more chance of working than say... a hydro differential pressure exchange system.




Willby,   why do you say Bessler was  "confused"  and an "outright liar"?    Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com  ?    In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it.  If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.   


So, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded?  This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS!  The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc...    All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes.  The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel.  What was inside and what powered it?  Gravity?  something else? 






Quote
gravity is a conservative fource


yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing.   Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly",  and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind.   If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well.   very intriguing!




EM

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Willby,   why do you say Bessler was  "confused"  and an "outright liar"?    Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com  ?
i didn't say that. i said in all likelihood he was confused or an outright liar. yes i do, try a physics 101 class...

In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it.  If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.   
i see, so you're basing your assumed principle on a logically fallacious 'appeal to authority'. and where is the math from these "great mathematicians" showing how and why bessler's wheel works... ::) what was inspected? bessler's 'secret sauce'? the magical box inside the wheel? ::)

So, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded?  This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS!  The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc...    All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes.  The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel.  What was inside and what powered it?  Gravity?  something else? 
i don't. nor do i care to spend my time pondering on things that allegedly occurred hundreds of years ago. what powered it? probably a well fed koala... ;)

yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing.   Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly",  and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind.   If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well.   very intriguing!




EM
no. it makes this 'invention' impossible... ::) so how is eric laithwaite relevant here? are you saying bessler had a gyroscope in his wheel? and you know, if bessler was here right now posting his 'ideas' you would most likely be speaking to him the same way you spoke to stiffler and to mrwayne and to... etc. etc.

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Offline EMdevices

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Quote
i didn't say that. i said in all likelihood he was confused or an outright liar. yes i do, try a physics 101 class...


Willby,  I can tell you don't do very well with probability and statistics, because you're very bad at judging "likelihood".      How can a confused guy build such a novel machine and impress the most critical minds of his time?   


Quote
no. it makes this 'invention' impossible...
 


well it apparently was created and it worked and it was witnessed by a lot of people, so why impossible?    I don't think there were any animals inside powering the wheel, you can do better than that.


EM

Offline johnny874

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Willby,   why do you say Bessler was  "confused"  and an "outright liar"?    Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com  ?    In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it.  If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.   


So, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded?  This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS!  The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc...    All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes.  The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel.  What was inside and what powered it?  Gravity?  something else? 







yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing.   Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly",  and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind.   If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well.   very intriguing!




EM

   EM,
>>   In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it  <<
 Is this an obvious reference to Liebniz ? Most people over look him when it comes to Bessler.
Also, they do need to thnk about his mv^2/r=cf (centrifugal force). With Bessler's wheel, if a weight has 1kg2m/s^2/1m=cf, then with an inertial velocity of 4m/s, it is less than gravity's acceleration of 9.8m/s which means that the weights would still fall in the direction the wheel is rotating and would strike the hub making 8 knocking sounds per revolution.
 
 @Wilby, when you're sober, read post #14.
 
 @Thing, care to let us know a little about your invention ?
 
  @All, with Bessler, do believe he found pumping water to be special (a refernece to his "special weight" quote attached to Mt 20). Water does not conform to the normal rules of leverage a solid weight uses. If 1 foot pound of force is applied to a pump, it can pump 1 pound of water up 1 foot.
 The distance the pump travels doesn't matter. It could have a lift of 12 inches for the water with a 1 inch drop/movement of the pump. Basic hydraulic theory. If anything, Bessler realized certain attributes of hydraulics well before anyone else thought of using hoses to pump fluids. 1700 was the very early stages of the Industrial Revolution.
 
                                                                                                      Johnny874   
 
                                                                                     

Offline johnny874

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yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing.   Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly",  and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind.   If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well.   very intriguing!




EM

  EM,
 Don't forget that the Segway uses gyro power to maintain it's balance.
Of course, gyro's helped the U.S. to defeat Japan in WW II because gyros allowed for more accurate
aiming of our big guns at sea. Great stabilizers.
 Did see one large gyro in Seattle at the science museum where it was slow to start moving but was hell to stop.
 Still, they seem to be a closed loop system that stores energy very well.
 
                                         Johnny
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-hcpj1G1T8
 
edited to correct content

Offline WilbyInebriated

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Willby,  I can tell you don't do very well with probability and statistics, because you're very bad at judging "likelihood".      How can a confused guy build such a novel machine and impress the most critical minds of his time?   
yeah... ::) those who were wrapped up in astrology, ghosts, bloodletting and such? those guys who just a generation earlier laughed at galileo? and it would take another generation before those same 'critical minds' laughed at sadi carnot... ::)

now, where's that math from these "great mathematicians" you spoke of?

 


well it apparently was created and it worked and it was witnessed by a lot of people, so why impossible?    I don't think there were any animals inside powering the wheel, you can do better than that.


EM
well then it should be easy to build shouldn't it... ::) why don't you have a working bessler wheel? look at what you do have: a perpetual motion machine 'powered by weights and gravity' whose secrets are now lost. you have no evidence how bessler’s wheel was powered, it could have been clockwork, or a heat engine, or a well fed koala in a wheel. bessler is an interesting piece of historical arcana, nothing more.

 

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