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Author Topic: Continuously Flowing Water Theory  (Read 106908 times)

Offline excessAlex

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2012, 12:42:31 PM »
Idea



yes..i know, the tube at the bottom should be placed as high of the lower reservoir..  ::)

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2012, 12:42:31 PM »

Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2012, 04:51:01 PM »
Idea



yes..i know, the tube at the bottom should be placed as high of the lower reservoir..  ::)

    excessAlex,
 I was going to say I like it. One thing you would need to add is a reservoir under the water bucket. When the water bucket empties into it, it would float the water bucket back up reseting the pump. I think this part of the design will always need
to be a 2 stage set up. This would let one reservoir  reset the pump while the other (lower) reservoir primes (fills) the pump.
 
                                                                                                                               Jim

Offline excessAlex

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2012, 05:54:55 PM »
actually the animation above lacks some check valves and shutoff valves. The mechanism that I have shown schematically does not move in a native, but must be adjusted by opening and closing the valves so as to allow time for the containers to exchange the liquid, and passing air to the piston when it is in the rising phase and in the filling phase.

 Bearing in mind that the two intermediate containers - when empty - have the same weight, and the lever that moves them is 1:1 my only question is: Can the weight of the water in the upper-intermediate vessel to overcome the force of gravity and friction of the pipes to allow liquid to back up the container at the top? .. I thought of working with containers from 30 liters up, maybe 100 liters ..

 I hope you understand everything that I wrote, english is not my natural language

( P.S. That animation has its flaws, because I'm not quite able to make animations, some solutions that I have represented are done so because I could not do better with the drawing software .. Actually you can improve it a lot )

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2012, 05:54:55 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2012, 09:22:29 PM »
actually the animation above lacks some check valves and shutoff valves. The mechanism that I have shown schematically does not move in a native, but must be adjusted by opening and closing the valves so as to allow time for the containers to exchange the liquid, and passing air to the piston when it is in the rising phase and in the filling phase.

 Bearing in mind that the two intermediate containers - when empty - have the same weight, and the lever that moves them is 1:1 my only question is: Can the weight of the water in the upper-intermediate vessel to overcome the force of gravity and friction of the pipes to allow liquid to back up the container at the top? .. I thought of working with containers from 30 liters up, maybe 100 liters ..

 I hope you understand everything that I wrote, english is not my natural language

( P.S. That animation has its flaws, because I'm not quite able to make animations, some solutions that I have represented are done so because I could not do better with the drawing software .. Actually you can improve it a lot )

  excessAlex,
 I wish I had watched the wmv. earlier. About the only thing that would need to be changed is the way the hydraulic piston works. I attached a drawing that shows how you can use leverage to increase the force for pumping and allow for easier resetting/priming of the pump.
 Also, your English is quite good. What is your native language if you don't mind my asking ?
 
                                                                                  Jim
 
edited to add; I think I like the way you thought of better than what I came up with  :D
 by the way, something working with a liter or 2 would be enough to impress most anyone  ;)

Offline Ghost

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2012, 08:23:42 AM »
I think using leverage is probably the best way to pump water up.
I don’t see this in excessAlex’s design.
I could be wrong though.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2012, 08:23:42 AM »
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Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2012, 10:44:17 AM »
If you watch the Video below, you will see Continuously Flowing Water WITHOUT a VACUUM AND Vacuum Pump.
It could be Scaled Up so the falling water could drive a Water Wheel that turns a Generator.

FREE ELECTRICITY forever.  Why monkey around with a vacuum???
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287qd4uI7-E&feature=channel&list=UL

You guys do realize this is just a nice parlor trick,
involving electrostatic liquid attraction as a pump,
right ?

Look at the conveniently placed two upright stands,
that spacious base, and think it through this time...

It wouldn't matter if the left side was the size of an ocean,
and the right side just a small garden hose in comparison,
they would (only) equalize levels, that's all...



EDIT:
Heheh, after looking at that for a full three seconds more,
I spotted an easier way, tap the liquid at the left stand's bottom support,
use a pump underneath, and a venturi in that right stand's support.

You did you all notice how no liquid even came out that tube
at the bottom of the flask right away like it would normally,
the flask is 1/3 full before anything starts to flow into it ?

That's because the suction of the pump is taking it instead.

That rules out electrostatic pump,
and rules in standard liquid pump,
with a venturi in the right support.

Bet there is several other ways to do this too,
but this isn't worth more than thirty seconds worth of thought...



EDIT 2:
I have now read the rest of these two pages,
(I have my posts-per-page set to maximum...),
enough people saw the vid's inconsistencies. :)



I'm was sad to see mechanical advantage added at first,
I'm trying to warm up to this combination though.

An initial pressure differential to utilize,
combined with controlled cyclic valving added
is where I was hoping this would go instead.

I also didn't see any consideration to a time interval.

For flow to double, the pressure differential must quadruple,
for both the pressure head heights to acheive double the flow.

Like 'Micro said, some form of flow control is needed,
then the resulting equalization unbalanced again,
rinse and repeat...

At least there is a constant to work against:
Each 2.31 feet of head height differential = 1 Pound (per) Square Inch (PSI) increase.

If only there were a way (bouyancy?) to juxtaposition the relational height
of each of the two chambers, and hence their current water head heights
in relation to each other with less work input somehow ?

After all, a perfect vacuum will hold a 34 foot high head of water,
that must be useful in application to developing a working concept...

The vacuum doesn't have to be "Produced" either,
a submersed unit, allowed to vacate of any air first,
need only now be raised to begin the vacuum process.

Then, inevitably, the suspended gasses in the liquid water
would release and provide the small gap to start the process.

I Like the logic problem presented though,
going to mull this over for a few days now.

Thanks Johnny, be well.

(Others, please don't quote this entire lengthy post, trim it please, TY)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 01:33:10 PM by CompuTutor »

Offline Lakes

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2012, 11:41:40 AM »
I was wondering when someone would spot the "thick" base that (youtube) demo is on... :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2012, 11:41:40 AM »
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Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2012, 02:27:09 PM »
There is another thing that makes me wonder about standards,
why are basically all incompressible liquids measured in PSI ?

We use PSI as a square of the pressure with compressable air as example,
it isn't just per-square-inch, it is a square of the pressure per square inch,
a quadrupling of occupation for every doubling of the pressure.

For those not getting that, think of a printer's DPI (Dots Per Inch)
10x10 = 100-DPI
20x20 = 400-DPI
lousy example, but good enough to visualize compressables like air,
increasing from 10 units of pressure to 20 units, quadruples air stored.

But as water is basically nearly incompressible,
why isn't it just measured as "Pounds" of pressure,
like inches of mercury or hg for a vacuum as example ?

I bring this up because in order to double the vacuum available,
quadruple the amount of gasseous substance must be removed.



Also, for some reason, double/triple/quadruple steam engines come to mind,
probably from the 2:1 ratio your working against in your ideas Johnny.

Perhaps the opposite could be employed to harvest the most effective force,
each chamber being 2:1 larger to reacted to half the pressure with equal force ?

(Note 2:1 ratio from chamber to chamber in pic, then reverse that thought for vacuum)

NOTE:
I just attached an animated graphic interchange file (Ani-GIF),
and the forum resize script seemed to have de-animated it  :(
(to a single-framed picture instead...)

Download to see animation instead:
http://www.overunity.com/downloads/sa/downfile/id/500/
(Clicking the pic link gets the same single frame pic sadly...)

Offline excessAlex

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2012, 03:42:21 PM »

What is your native language if you don't mind my asking ?..

....something working with a liter or 2 would be enough to impress most anyone

I am Italian  ;D Nice to meet you

I tried to use some little reservoirs ( e.g. 1,5 liter ), and the result are not so good, because the pipe for the rising fluid must be very little and the friction will be very strong. I I need a tiny tube that must be, however, very, VERY smooth on the inside. For this I thought to enlarge the size (and weight) of the whole device so I could indirectly "shrink" the imperfections of the pipe internal  .. At least that I thought in my ignorance  ::)

.. For the lever:
I had thought of a lever, but then this lever interferes with the lifting of the low-intermediate vessel. There is a margin in order to use a little leverage, but not much.
 I thought for example to add weight to the container upper-intermediate, for example: if the containers were to hold 100 kg of liquid, the weight to be added may be up to 80 kg, because the container medium-low, when the liquid is transferred to its inside then it would weigh 100 kg against 80 kg of weight added to the container upper-intermediate .. This could be turned into a lever, rather than add weight so you could change the arm that regulates the movement of intermediate containers ..

Alex

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2012, 03:42:21 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2012, 03:57:01 PM »
I am Italian  ;D Nice to meet you

I tried to use some little reservoirs ( e.g. 1,5 liter ), and the result are not so good, because the pipe for the rising fluid must be very little and the friction will be very strong. I I need a tiny tube that must be, however, very, VERY smooth on the inside. For this I thought to enlarge the size (and weight) of the whole device so I could indirectly "shrink" the imperfections of the pipe internal  .. At least that I thought in my ignorance  ::)

.. For the lever:
I had thought of a lever, but then this lever interferes with the lifting of the low-intermediate vessel. There is a margin in order to use a little leverage, but not much.
 I thought for example to add weight to the container upper-intermediate, for example: if the containers were to hold 100 kg of liquid, the weight to be added may be up to 80 kg, because the container medium-low, when the liquid is transferred to its inside then it would weigh 100 kg against 80 kg of weight added to the container upper-intermediate .. This could be turned into a lever, rather than add weight so you could change the arm that regulates the movement of intermediate containers ..

Alex

   Hi Alex,
 With leverage, it increases the force acting on the pump, very helpful.
With what you have shown and what some might miss is that by increasing the diameter of the
pump, it's height can be less. If adhesion or cohesion is a problem, then some light oil can be
added to the water to coat the inside of the tubes.
 With the riser pipe, it might help to calculate the volume the pump holds and then this would
help to determine what size riser pipe might work best. PVC is pretty smooth on the inside
and is used agreat deal in plumbing.
 To caclulate volume of a static head or riser tube, the formula is PiR^2H or 3.142*radius^2*height.
^2 represents squared or multiplied by itself and * is times. Just so everyone knows  :D
 By the way Alex, the fulcrum for leveraging the pump could be suspended from the bottom of the
top reservoir. Also, if volumes are known, then the total heaight of your design could be lower than what
you might think. If so, then the diameter of the riser pipe might be able to have a larger radius.
 
                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                       

Offline crazycut06

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2012, 04:45:53 PM »
If you watch the Video below, you will see Continuously Flowing Water WITHOUT a VACUUM AND Vacuum Pump.
It could be Scaled Up so the falling water could drive a Water Wheel that turns a Generator.

FREE ELECTRICITY forever.  Why monkey around with a vacuum???
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=287qd4uI7-E&feature=channel&list=UL
 
 .
I think this ones a fake, why?
1. As he fills the flask the water did not flow instantly to the bottom hose, it took about 3seconds...
2. Why is that there are bubbles comming out of the hose like something is pumping up the water?
3. The wooden base is suspicious, it should have been built on a transparent platform...
Has anyone tried to replicate this if it is posible?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2012, 04:45:53 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2012, 05:12:14 PM »
I think this ones a fake, why?
1. As he fills the flask the water did not flow instantly to the bottom hose, it took about 3seconds...
2. Why is that there are bubbles comming out of the hose like something is pumping up the water?
3. The wooden base is suspicious, it should have been built on a transparent platform...
Has anyone tried to replicate this if it is posible?

  hi crazycut06,
 the video does say hypothetical. I think they made the vidoe to try and get people to think about how
those idea's might work.
 
  @Alex,
 here are some numbers for you. I am listing two sizes for the pump and one for the riser pipe.
 sqrt or square root equals radius.  ;)
    pump  1                                                                                                           pump 2
 1,500 / 7.5 = 20                                                                                       1,500 / 5 = 300
 20 / 3.142 = 63.65                                                                                   300 / 3.142 = 96.48
 63.65 sqrt  = 7.98                                                                                     96.48 sqrt  = 9.77
 
                                  riser pipe         
                                  750 / 15 = 50
                                  50 / 3.142 = 16.03
                                  16.03 sqrt = 4.00
 
  As you can see, by increasing the diameter of the pump from 7.98 cm's to 9.77 cm's, it's height
only needs to be 5 cm's (2 in.) instead of 7.5 cm's (3 in.).
 And the riser pipe ? A diameter of 8 cm's (3.2 in.) I think would be sufficient to easily allow water to be
pumped. And at 15 cm's (6 in.)
 By having a shorter pump, it allows for more leverage to be used. With a taller riser pipe, say 25 cm's tall,
 then     750 / 25 = 30     
            30 / 3.142 = 9.65
            9.65 sqrt =  3.09
 
 If you notice, I am calculating the riser pipe to have 1/2 the volume of the pump.
 And with a height of 25 cm's ( 10 in.), it would have a diameter of 3.09 cm's (1.25 in.).
  I think those are some workable numbers.
 With the pump having a stroke of 5 cm's (2 in.), and the riser pipe being 25 cm's (10 in.)
allows for a working room of 20 cm's (8 in.) which should be enough space with your
configuration.
 
                                                                                                    Jim
 
edited to correct spelling
edited to add; sqrt or square root equals radius

Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2012, 07:10:48 PM »
  @All,
 This is one way a pump could be made. It would have a low profile
but have high volume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2SZIITKnCI&feature=youtu.be
 
edited to add;  Alex, with your design, it might be controlling the movement of the
2 water tanks that are the pump and reset that might take some thought.
 It might be possible for them to be draining or being filled while moving.
 The pump could be filled while moving downward and the reset could be draining as it is lifted. You should find out about flapper valves. they are simple yet might work well with this type of application.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:48:54 PM by johnny874 »

Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2012, 10:15:12 PM »
There is another thing that makes me wonder about standards,
why are basically all incompressible liquids measured in PSI ?

We use PSI as a square of the pressure with compressable air as example,
it isn't just per-square-inch, it is a square of the pressure per square inch,
a quadrupling of occupation for every doubling of the pressure.

For those not getting that, think of a printer's DPI (Dots Per Inch)
10x10 = 100-DPI
20x20 = 400-DPI
lousy example, but good enough to visualize compressables like air,
increasing from 10 units of pressure to 20 units, quadruples air stored.

But as water is basically nearly incompressible,
why isn't it just measured as "Pounds" of pressure,
like inches of mercury or hg for a vacuum as example ?

I bring this up because in order to double the vacuum available,
quadruple the amount of gasseous substance must be removed.



Also, for some reason, double/triple/quadruple steam engines come to mind,
probably from the 2:1 ratio your working against in your ideas Johnny.

Perhaps the opposite could be employed to harvest the most effective force,
each chamber being 2:1 larger to reacted to half the pressure with equal force ?

(Note 2:1 ratio from chamber to chamber in pic, then reverse that thought for vacuum)

NOTE:
I just attached an animated graphic interchange file (Ani-GIF),
and the forum resize script seemed to have de-animated it  :(
(to a single-framed picture instead...)

Download to see animation instead:
http://www.overunity.com/downloads/sa/downfile/id/500/
(Clicking the pic link gets the same single frame pic sadly...)

   CompuTutor,
 Think you could do an animated gif of this type of wheel. Continuous rotation might allow for most efficient use of energy conversion. If so, I know I would appreciate it as well as everyone in here.
 It is as you mentioned about doubling or quadrupling force, with leverage, it becomes possible. This is one reason why with the "logic problem" as you rightly called it that a pumps volume is not necessarily entirely based on height. With a shorter stroke, the difference in the height of the static head and the lever acting on the pump becomes greater.
 With your engine, the 3 cylinders would need to be at different elevations so as the water flows downward, it's mass being acted on by gravity is the greater force.
 One way to do it might be to have the pistons tilt at the bottom of their stroke emptying that cylinder and filling the next one. And with the last cylinder operating the pump refills the inital stage. This would allow it to be a closed loop system where leverage allows for the force of one piston to be amplified to operate the water pump.
 
                                                                           Jim
 
edited to add;
  >>  But as water is basically nearly incompressible,
why isn't it just measured as "Pounds" of pressure,
like inches of mercury or hg for a vacuum as example ?
<<
 
  As you mentioned, in math, values are often squared. it seems to be a universal thing.
 With pressure, the surface area may not be increasing in size. If it did exponentially, then
it would be as the DPI you mentioned. But with a static head, every 33 feet the pressure per square inch doubles.
 
edited to add; compuTutor, you brought up a good point I almost missed. If a basic pump were square, then it's volume would quadruple if it's dimension went from 2 x 2 to 4 x 4.
 This would mean that 4 times the water could be pumped per stroke without increasing the length of the stroke. I think sometimes on these idea's, it is best to start with something basic so everyone can follow. Then when it is more familiar, the advancing the concept little by little would make it easier to understand what principles are being used and how or why.
 
                                                                                     Johnny874

Offline johnny874

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Re: Continuously Flowing Water Theory
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2012, 06:29:29 PM »
  @All,
 I modified accessAlex's concept going with the theme of this thread.
I am providing numbers to show how self pumping / flowing water can work. Where Alex had a pipe, think half pipe (snow boarding term, sorry bout that) .
 I think everyone should get it and if all else fails, maybe it would make for an interesting aquarium for marketability.
                                                 
                                                                                                                                      Johnny874
 
edited to add; H= height, SAE is 18, metric is 45.75, hope using both values doesn't confuse everyone to much but you know, my dad was metric and I'm SAE.

 

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