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Author Topic: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept  (Read 21581 times)

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 09:28:15 PM »
  @Eagle1,
 This is what I was talking about as far as a simple idea goes.
 I've done the math before and tonight I will do it again. I'll come up with a radius
and an over balance that will give the weights moving downward a longer path
than the weights being lifted. I should be able to come up with something I like.
 If so, then tomorrow I can start work on it. Maybe have it done this weekend.
 Then at least we will know how well math helps us to understand what might
or might not work.
 And of course, I'll post the math. And with a build, it would be an actual engineered
project.
                                                                                                    Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 09:28:15 PM »

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 04:12:38 PM »
what i am hearing is 'working in pairs' and 'one side full one side empty' also 'faling towards the centre'
If your wheel is rotating clockwise, and your weight is moving counter clockwise, you are effectively splitting gravity into clockwise and counterclockwise movement/rotation at the same time.
This proces is continuously disturbing the equilibrium it is trying to find because the normally one way motion gets converted and stored into two way motion, which is moving away from each other and therefore can never find rest.

Duck Weed.

   Duck,
 What you are describing is what I believe to be one of Bessler's wheels. With what I believe he had found, he could have the levers fall towards center and strike the hub. This could explain the 8 knocking sounds that people heard. If he tethered the weights, then he could control the mechanics of his wheel and employ a different principle.
 With the 4 weighted wheel, it is something I thought of while trying to understand what Bessler might have known.
 If you look at the first few drawings in the link, it is the simplest way to have gravity do all the work. http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20
 I did the math last night and made one slight mistake which I corrected this morning. With the basic diagram, if a weight as an example has it's CoG 10cm's from center and it's CoG can move from that point 2cm's at an angle of 45 degrees, the downward path is about 3 cm's longer than the path the weight moving upward would follow.
 This extra distance shows an over all over balance and would give this dersign a chance of working. Would it be able to rotate continuously ? I'm not sure. Any extra rotation of the wheel past the point where the weights can either move inward or outward is lost over balance.
 It's interesting though. The last time I discussed this design with other people, one person wanted to know how it worked so they could build it. They didn't care to know the math or science behind it. As it turns out, without understanding the math behind it, it might never work because more over balance is always assumed to be better. But in this instance, limiting over balance helps to find the "Golden Zone". A spin of the Goldilocks scientists use when refering to the habitability of the Earth and it's orbit around the sun.
 
                                                                            Jim
edited to correct the value of over balance

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 07:20:46 PM »
   @All,
 I'll see what I can do about getting some work done to demonstrate the 4 weighted wheel.
It would be a straight conversion of gravity into mechanical energy. This would also help to
give me something to discuss while I'm working at my own expense on Bessler's wheel. I
think it will be one of the best free energy devices of a mechanical nature.
 Hopefully I can post some compl;eted work by tomorrow evening. Who knows, it might lead
to the simplest open source idea that would be easy to replicate and verify independently.
 Of course, if it works, still might make some money off of it. If that happens, guess I'll have to
live with as well  ;) ;)
 
                                                                                                      Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 07:20:46 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 11:43:52 PM »
  @All,
 I do know i post a lot  ;D
I'm addicted to pm, what can I say ?
 I did get a small start today. I hope to get an earlier one
tomorrow so I can show something. This is something I
have built and posted a video of. This time, it might work.
 The 4 weighted design is pretty basic and this should help
me to get a lot done tomorrow. Also, have been over the math
quite a bit over the last few years. That kind of gets old because
a wheel can express it so much better. I have thought of possibly
2 wheels with different over balances to show the difference.
 To understand the difference though would require getting into
trigonometry, could be quite a bit  :)  Math is the heart and soul
of engineering, comes with the subject.
 One basis of this concept is that the over balance creates torque
which is defined as a turning force. The more torque, the quicker
the acceleration, the same as with a car or motorcycle. It would be the
mass of the wheel that power (horse power) would come into play. That
would be the over all mass times velocity under load or having resistence
that is constant. basically the same thing.
 
                                                                                    Jim

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2012, 07:49:47 PM »
  @All,
 All I can say is it's a start. Have only been out of surgery a week so it is something.
It will be about 23 inches in diameter. Depending how things go, could go to a larger
diameter and use slightly heavier weights.
 I'll make a box for my router so the weight locations will all be the same. There are
3 ways this might go perpetual. Webby1 gave me a good idea in using something
similar to a  flywheel. For something like that, it would take a bit of work but could be
worth it. Of course, if that works, Tom would have to take credit for his idea.
 The 2 pics show the initial build process. I had to buy a rotary tool to drill hole locations.
And the other shows the CoG of the weights path being drilled using a hole saw. After I
route it, then I can route the outside radius and be close to completion.
 What I am trying for with this is 90 degrees of rotation for each weight. 360/4=90.
 I think understanding the basics helps to understand how potential can be realized.

                                                                                                   Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2012, 07:49:47 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2012, 10:22:15 PM »
  @all,
 Tomorrow I,ll be able to upload some pics.
 With a wheel, there is no reversing of direction.
 What I like about this build is that it will help to understand how much overbalance is needed to rotate a wheel.
 After a while, you may come to understand why I like Bessler,s wheel so much.

     Jim

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 10:19:09 PM »
   @All,
  This is a part of what I've done. I have the 4 slots finished.
 I have given the math a little thought. Since I am using 4 -1lb.
weights, with a 30% over balance, the initial over balance will be
4 ounces @ about 23 inches. Or about 1/2 foot pound of torque.
 To rotate a wheel of 4 1/2 lbs., I will need to trim off any excess
material while allowing for structural support.
 This will help to show a relationship between torque and acceleration.
In Netwon's terms, f=ma of which the a represents acceleration.
 Also, a customer service rep and the Woodsmithshop show have
mentioned kerf boards if I remember right. They can form radii easily.
 This would let me use a build similar to this as this as the form for
Bessler's wheel. It seems one build leads to the other   :o 8)
 To finish even a basic wheel like this I may take another 2 weeks to do.
This is because I will need to think about what template or process to
remove more wood thus making the wheel as light as possible. And
remember please, with this build, 90 degrees of rotation per weight is the
goal. After that ... heck, I'll wait until I get there to worry about it.
 
                                                              Jim
 
edited to correct torque estimate

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 10:19:09 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 06:45:29 PM »
   @All,
 This is the basic 4 weighted wheel. One I previously built was over 5 feet in diameter
and had 8 inches of over balance.
 With this build, it's about 10 inches at the start position and 13 inches in the over balanced
position. since it is a rotating wheel, the over balance needs to be considered from the center line. At 45 degrees after center, if the weight moves straight out, it is moving from 7 inches from the center line to 10 inches and would be about 52 degrees after top center.
 The video is short but makes it's point. Not enough torque (acceleration) is generated. I used nylon bushings with no lubrication. The next time I am at my shop, I will remember to
take some white grease with me. It's in a spray can and should help to lower resistence.
 Might even try bearings and trimming off excess material as time goes by.
This simple build is helpful to me. For you critics, do you think I would spend the money if
this is what I wanted ? it's not, but it is to help everyone else to understand some of what
I have learned over the last few years.
 Between building this and what I can observe about mass to net force and it's ability to accelerate this wheel helps me to better understand what I need to be concerned with when I build Bessler's wheel which is in the end, what this is about. And the next visit to my shop I will most like start building the form I will need to get started on that build.
 Going by simple relationships, the 4 weighted wheel has about 1/2 foot pound of torque.
With Bessler's wheel, using twice as much weight, I will be trying to attain 4 foot pounds of torque. This means I would be using a 1 pound weight to move quickly (4.9m/s) 2 pounds of weight.
This will let me know befor I even build it what the dimensions will need to be.
 As for this side project, I am using materials I already have so it's paying for itself  :D
 
                                                                                  Jim
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcdYVnUYrw8&feature=youtu.be
 
edited to add; did some quick math and to achieve 60 rpm, a diameter of 1.56 meters
would work. That's about 60 inches. with a 40 inch wheel, moving a weight at about 3m/s
should do it and the design I've been working on is close to what is needed.
 One thing Conrad mentioned to me is that this being a hobby, I should only budget so much money to spend on it. I think that is a very good idea and advice I plan on following.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 10:36:25 PM by johnny874 »

Offline Jameson

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 10:19:47 PM »
Very cool,but I predict you will not have success with this one. A  lot of us have drawings like this in our old notebooks and a lot of old wheels in the basement.  The math that you need to understand is trigonometry which can be elegant and agonizing in its precision of showing you exactly where your limit is.

 To put it briefly, for every 1 degree of motion on your wheel, the 4 weights will each have a change in sine. In other words, they would each have a slight net increase or decrease in upward motion relative to the center of the wheel. Sum the changes in sine for all 4 weights and you will know if that 1 degree of motion would tend to be clockwise (negative net sine) or counterclockwise (positive net sine). When you find the point where one degree is positive and the next degree is negative, that is where your wheel will stop.

To leap ahead, what you will discover is that all that matters is the total net sine change over one complete rotation.  And if, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, you are in exactly the same place after one rotation, the the net positive changes in sine must always (precisely, dammit!) equal the net negative changes. Bottom line: You can't go down more than you go up.

I have an Excel spreadsheet that I developed that helps me calculate these because I haven't given up on it either. I would be willing to share if anybody wants to see it.  Keep plugging !!

Jameson

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 10:19:47 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2012, 01:14:19 AM »
   Hi jameson,
 With this- it,s okay if it doesn,t work.
 One thing it helps to understand is to understand weight to force ratios and acceleration.
 It has helped me to know what to look for in Bessler,s drawings that had the potential for a lot of torque which is also known as overbalance.

     Jim

Offline johnny874

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Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 04:03:14 PM »
Very cool,but I predict you will not have success with this one. A  lot of us have drawings like this in our old notebooks and a lot of old wheels in the basement.  The math that you need to understand is trigonometry which can be elegant and agonizing in its precision of showing you exactly where your limit is.

 To put it briefly, for every 1 degree of motion on your wheel, the 4 weights will each have a change in sine. In other words, they would each have a slight net increase or decrease in upward motion relative to the center of the wheel. Sum the changes in sine for all 4 weights and you will know if that 1 degree of motion would tend to be clockwise (negative net sine) or counterclockwise (positive net sine). When you find the point where one degree is positive and the next degree is negative, that is where your wheel will stop.

To leap ahead, what you will discover is that all that matters is the total net sine change over one complete rotation.  And if, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, you are in exactly the same place after one rotation, the the net positive changes in sine must always (precisely, dammit!) equal the net negative changes. Bottom line: You can't go down more than you go up.

I have an Excel spreadsheet that I developed that helps me calculate these because I haven't given up on it either. I would be willing to share if anybody wants to see it.  Keep plugging !!

Jameson

  Jameson,
 In the picture, the motions A and B cancel each out as well as C and D.
 This would leave the area between them as over balance. What could be a
problem with this design is where D is when the weights shift. It would have
lost momentum.
 If enough torque were geenrated, it might be possible to have the weights strike
a stationary post and shift quicker, a reflexive type action if you will. If so, then
D might maintain it's momentum. It's kind of a study in motion.
 Maybe you might rethink cause and effect ? maybe ?
 
                                                                                        Jim
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic 4 Weighted Wheel Concept
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 04:03:14 PM »
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