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## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 02:45:05 AM

Title: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 02:45:05 AM
This is the first time I have gotten a simple wheel to accelerate under real world conditions.

My thanks to Mikhail Dimitryev for inspiration, but no motors nor clutches neccessary.

Parts:
A 50kg non magnetic material wheel set on a mount with a high end bearing
At 15Âº intervals bolts with ( 360/15 = 24 ) free hanging iron weights of 250 grams each attached via 25cm of string or other suited material
Weights (represented by spheres) cannot collide
Between the two and three Â´o clock position a static magnet is placed in such a way that the weights come into its field at around the two fourtyfive position (2:45) and leave the field at around the three Â´o clock position. The balls that come into the magnetic field are slightly pulled towards the magnet and immediately after leave the field as the wheel rotates. This small offset is enough to cause a permanent imbalance in the wheel and causes it to rotate and accelerate in a clockwise direction.

The force the magnet exerts is simulated by the following formula: and(body(b) .p.x > 0.080,body(b).p.y > 0.200)

where b is the objectnumber of the iron ball
p.x. is the position of the ball on the x axis in the model
p.y is the position of the ball on the y axis in the model

the ball comes into the sphere of influence of the magnet at x > 0.080 and y > 0.200 (in this model).

To visualise this I have highlighted four balls in red, blue, orange and green and the respective forces on those balls once they come near the magnet. Note the activation of the force between the two and three Â´o-clock position and the deactivation near the three fifteen position, thus simulating the ball entering and exiting the sphere of influence of the magnet. The force the magnet exerts is set to Fx=0.05N (x-axial), in real world you can move the magnet closer or farther to vary this force. I assume the optimal distance is the one where any force is exerted.

The force is uniform and at the same location for all yellow balls in the same manner as shown for the colored balls.

No matter how low the force is set in this simulation, the wheel rotates CW and accelerates until contraints break (infinity).
Gravity exercises upon the minor but persistent imbalance caused by the magnet.

Caveats: Real world one would not expect to have such a force as a constant, but due to the pendular motion of the weights rather a varying force. Still, I would expect to see motion and a self starting accelerating wheel using these principles. Also friction on the bearing may be an issue.

Accurate gravity and air resistance set to high in this model.

I am conservatively optimistic about this model and will be building this. However I gave most my parts away and do not even have a decent bearing left. See? Never give stuff away or throw it out. You never know when inspirational bugs bite you.

AZ-Wheel Model attached. Please point out mistakes I made, I must be missing something.  ::)

AZ.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modelled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 02:59:58 AM
"What are you doing?"

"Eeeh nothing" as he stumbles around in the garage at 03:00 am frantically looking for parts.

;D

Ah, still have a bicycle wheel - at least thatÂ´s something.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 10:32:30 AM
Good morning everyone - there is something wrong with the forum - links are not generated properly so you cannot reach threads. IÂ´m going shopping for some parts - cya.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: broli on April 12, 2012, 02:17:27 PM
Your force model is not really accurate, there's no such force that is uniform and suddenly "switches off" in nature. However you can "simulate" magnetic attraction using electrostatics in wm2d it results in more realistic forces based on a 1/rÂ² relationship.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 02:46:26 PM
Your force model is not really accurate, there's no such force that is uniform and suddenly "switches off" in nature. However you can "simulate" magnetic attraction using electrostatics in wm2d it results in more realistic forces based on a 1/rÂ² relationship.

Hiya Broli yes, I realise this as I said in OP.

BUT

It should not matter that it is a non-linear hyperbole in real world. Force is force.

IÂ´ve started dressing up a bicycle wheel with small spherical weights - not optimal but just to have a peek

If you could do anything with the model to make it more realistic please do, as I am not all that proficient with forces in wm2d at all.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 02:49:45 PM
Just to add, ANY amount of force on the x-axis for the spheres is enough to create imbalance.

So as long as there is Fx there is imbalance

And where there is imbalance there is rotation due to gravity.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: 4Tesla on April 12, 2012, 07:05:42 PM
Interesting!  I don't have wm2d.  Can you please post some images and animation (gif or vid).

Thanks,
4Tesla
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2012, 07:24:24 PM
http://www.overunity.com/8438/gravity-wheel-of-mikhail-dmitriyev/210/
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: oscar on April 12, 2012, 07:45:29 PM
Hi AquariuZ,
I like the idea (and I never worked with magnets in wm2d before).
However: I deleted the static magnets, just to check, but it still runs.
That seems odd !?
File is attached
PS my version of wm2d is older than yours, so the color is gone.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 09:25:09 PM
http://www.overunity.com/8438/gravity-wheel-of-mikhail-dmitriyev/210/ (http://www.overunity.com/8438/gravity-wheel-of-mikhail-dmitriyev/210/)

I took a look but that model is not wm2d. Please remember Mikhail uses a small motor to push the weights out, and I use a magnet to pull the weights outward. A simple difference.

I do feel that a good build of Mikhail can achieve OU without a doubt. Imagine a microventilator running at 0.5 watt with little arms displacing the weights making the wheel turn. I am quite sure you can get more than .5 watt out of a wheel that spins as such.

And I feel quite confident I can create movement using a magnet to displace the pendulums.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 09:26:50 PM
Hi AquariuZ,
I like the idea (and I never worked with magnets in wm2d before).
However: I deleted the static magnets, just to check, but it still runs.
That seems odd !?
File is attached
PS my version of wm2d is older than yours, so the color is gone.

The picture is for display purposes only.

The force itself is set on each and every ball, and becomes active in the region near the picture of the "magnet" and immediately deactivates after it passes the "magnet".
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 09:57:19 PM
Interesting!  I don't have wm2d.  Can you please post some images and animation (gif or vid).

Thanks,
4Tesla

This is the best I can do, hope you can see it.

Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: 4Tesla on April 13, 2012, 01:21:54 AM
This is the best I can do, hope you can see it.

Thanks, but it just plays a black screen.  I tried multiple players.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: protech on April 13, 2012, 01:31:52 AM
go here get divx plus player , it works  http://rovicorp.force.com/ (http://rovicorp.force.com/)
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: 4Tesla on April 13, 2012, 07:08:09 AM
go here get divx plus player , it works  http://rovicorp.force.com/ (http://rovicorp.force.com/)

Thanks.. I was able to play the video with the DivX Player.

Neat model.. still don't totally understand it though.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: oscar on April 13, 2012, 10:47:09 AM
The picture is for display purposes only.
The force itself is set on each and every ball, and becomes active in the region near the picture of the "magnet" and immediately deactivates after it passes the "magnet".
Hi AquariuZ.
thanks for the explanation.
I personally think you found something. That will work.
You will probably run into problems with the swing of the pendulums, because the whole structure will try to swing/move and that will make a long free run hard to achieve. But I think you will do it.
Good luck building it.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2012, 12:31:07 PM
Hi AquariuZ.
thanks for the explanation.
I personally think you found something. That will work.
You will probably run into problems with the swing of the pendulums, because the whole structure will try to swing/move and that will make a long free run hard to achieve. But I think you will do it.
Good luck building it.

Thanks Oscar. I have found after a day or so it is futile to make a desktop model using a bicycle wheel.

I can clearly see the effect and it is promising, but some drag comes into play as well. I need more mass, and better parts.

The trick is for the magnet to be placed so that it starts pulling the balls between 2 and 3 o clock - or shifting rather - and the balls leaving the field at three. Now I could persist in trying this small model but I feel even though it might work the next step (pickup coils to generate electricity) will not. So ball comes into the far edges of the magnetic field - gets a small jolt - and leaves the field.

Pleace it too close and the magnet may attract and hit a ball and cause breaking due to drag. Place it too far and it has no effect on the ball. Precision wanted.

So, I will have to put my money where my mouth is on this one and scavange for parts. Need a large round table top, bolts, wood to make a stand, pour a concrete base for the stand, some aluminum maybe for a magnet holder and serious uniform weights with a way to make correct pendulums. Bolts with eyes. Rods with double eyes to attach weights and create true pendulums.

Now if that big attempt fails I can easily alter the design to the one Mikhail proposed using a small ventilator motor to displace the weights instead. Can be closed system if started by hand. In any case: a lot of work is needed.

Another idea that came to mind is a powerful electromagnet in that location that is somehow driven and switched by the wheel itself (requires handstart in that case). That would come closer to Force on/Force off that Broli mentioned.

If anyone has tried building Mikhails version I wonder if they could try placing a magnet in the 2:30 region?

IÂ´ll be back.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
Here a few pictures what I am thinking of.

The wheel with bolts will almost look like a Western Saloon Gambling Wheel.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: andrea on April 13, 2012, 04:39:04 PM
I took a look but that model is not wm2d. Please remember Mikhail uses a small motor to push the weights out, and I use a magnet to pull the weights outward. A simple difference.

I do feel that a good build of Mikhail can achieve OU without a doubt. Imagine a microventilator running at 0.5 watt with little arms displacing the weights making the wheel turn. I am quite sure you can get more than .5 watt out of a wheel that spins as such.

And I feel quite confident I can create movement using a magnet to displace the pendulums.

That simulation is made with Algodoo, and the model uses magnet, not motor. The problem is that the magnet pull the weights outside, yes.... but the wheel can't turn cause the magnet block the weights near to itself. However, I hope you'll build a working model. Good luck.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2012, 06:10:46 PM
That simulation is made with Algodoo, and the model uses magnet, not motor. The problem is that the magnet pull the weights outside, yes.... but the wheel can't turn cause the magnet block the weights near to itself. However, I hope you'll build a working model. Good luck.

Yes, the drag is significant enough to block the motion, so placement is crucial, perhaps even impossible.

In any case I still have the ventilator option which is proven to work, but I will try this out first.

Thanks for the tip
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: 4Tesla on April 13, 2012, 08:44:53 PM
Here a few pictures what I am thinking of.

The wheel with bolts will almost look like a Western Saloon Gambling Wheel.

Thanks for this post.. I understand how it is suppose to work now.  8)
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: oscar on April 15, 2012, 10:21:14 AM
Hi AquariuZ,
While thinking about your idea, I feel that there are two basic options:

option a)
iron pendulum weights are used. A magnet is used (as horizontal force Fx) to displace/attract them.

option b)
magnets are used as pendulum weights. Then iron OR a magnet can be used to create Fx.

I think option (b) opens an additional possibility to create horizontal displacement:
using another fixed magnet ON THE LEFT SIDE of the wheel.  This magnet could PUSH/REPEL the pendulums to the right. That would increase the turning force.

Do you agree?
PS: I am attaching an image of AquariuZ's original model, showing his basic idea.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2012, 06:30:07 PM
@oscar,

yes, good observation.

But there will be drag in either option which is basically the same as friction  :(

Even though I think there will still be an effect, the pull and the drag might cancel each other out-

But to be sure correct positioning of the magnet needs to be tried out.

I also was thinking about the pendulums being able to move only in a counter-clockwise direction using a spanner mechanism in the joint. Not sure how to describe it, but what I mean is something with teeth that does not allow the pendulum to swing left, only right.

That coupled with minimal Fx should be enough.

Look at this interesting video of a Mikhail Dimitriyev design:

only Â¨pendulum" movement in CCW direction while the entire assembly moves CW.
and only two or max 4 weights needed.

If only I knew how to model this... Trying.

Thanks oscar
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: oscar on April 16, 2012, 08:56:49 AM
Hi AquariuZ,
Thanks for posting a link to the Mikhail Dimitriyev simulation.

I also was thinking about the pendulums being able to move only in a counter-clockwise direction using a spanner mechanism in the joint. Not sure how to describe it, but what I mean is something with teeth that does not allow the pendulum to swing left, only right.

Ok:
your original idea will work, but only if the wheel can turn with very low friction. One can model/set the friction of the wheel's central bearing in wm2d, and as soon as one does that, it does not work any more.

Preventing the pendulums from swinging back after they were attracted towards the magnet, is a good idea. Because as long as they can swing back freely (= loose their displacement) they exert the necessary force to drive the wheel only very briefly.
If they would stay displaced, they would exert that force for a longer period and the wheel would become more powerful.

The mechanism you describe is a ratchet, also called a freewheel clutch.
http://www.ringspann.com/en/Products/Freewheels/Overview__403/

Yes, to have that is a good idea, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2012, 07:14:12 PM
The mechanism you describe is a ratchet, also called a freewheel clutch.
http://www.ringspann.com/en/Products/Freewheels/Overview__403/ (http://www.ringspann.com/en/Products/Freewheels/Overview__403/)

Yes, to have that is a good idea, in my opinion.

Exactly what I meant... thanks oscar.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on May 09, 2012, 11:29:06 AM
The principle seems to work.

Now I am thinking electromagnet - pickup coils and reed switch

Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: ruin41 on May 09, 2012, 02:09:16 PM
When i started reading this thread i thought this looks promising. Before doing anything serious on this i would highly recomend a pendulum test as this is what your washers are. In my opinion the laws of physics would dictate that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and for each casue there will be an effect. My belief here is that the action of the washers being atracted to the magnet will result in an equal and opposite reaction to said latching that will reduce the weight of the washers and thus negate the weight advantage you are trying to achieve. Just as an asside this is kinda pointless as it can never go fast due to centrifugal force throwing out the whole thing eg every washer pendulum and so if you were to scale this up to a usable level say the size of a feris wheel with 1000lb weights and you were actually able to displace one 1% you would have a total force of 10lbs of usable work from it. The vid with the ball and wheel is awesome but that too is never going to scale past a toy.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: FatBird on May 09, 2012, 03:28:03 PM
Click on these Links to see 5 Perpetual Motion Machines:

Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: FatBird on May 10, 2012, 02:30:03 AM
Good points Ron.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: TheOne on May 10, 2012, 05:08:14 AM
the youtube guys have good video but its fake why?

you see some-kind of exposition with children, at 2:17 you see a table where the perpetual motion device are located, if you look closely, you will see AC wire coming on each device LOL

Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on May 10, 2012, 05:27:04 AM
Hi AquariuZ,

I've tested that design in the video a while back and it essentially becomes static. It won't be running the 5kw generator head.

I came up with another design that would push/shift the center of gravity based off the rubber band heat engine idea, replace the heat with the force of magnets.

The shifted weight must be able to overcome the force of the sticky spot as the magnets are traveling up towards the pushing magnet. Not sure if this can be offset with a flywheel, smaller/angled pushing magnet or using the curve of a diametric magnet to lessen the effect. I haven't had the time to build it to see.

Based on the principle of the rubber band heat engine.
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on May 10, 2012, 06:44:49 PM
When i started reading this thread i thought this looks promising. Before doing anything serious on this i would highly recomend a pendulum test as this is what your washers are. In my opinion the laws of physics would dictate that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and for each casue there will be an effect. My belief here is that the action of the washers being atracted to the magnet will result in an equal and opposite reaction to said latching that will reduce the weight of the washers and thus negate the weight advantage you are trying to achieve. Just as an asside this is kinda pointless as it can never go fast due to centrifugal force throwing out the whole thing eg every washer pendulum and so if you were to scale this up to a usable level say the size of a feris wheel with 1000lb weights and you were actually able to displace one 1% you would have a total force of 10lbs of usable work from it. The vid with the ball and wheel is awesome but that too is never going to scale past a toy.

Yes, thatÂ´s why I am thinking one way clutches for the pendulum (see above).
Title: Re: Accelerating wheel modeled under real world conditions - could it be?
Post by: AquariuZ on May 10, 2012, 06:57:51 PM
Hi AquariuZ,

I've tested that design in the video a while back and it essentially becomes static. It won't be running the 5kw generator head.

I came up with another design that would push/shift the center of gravity based off the rubber band heat engine idea, replace the heat with the force of magnets.

The shifted weight must be able to overcome the force of the sticky spot as the magnets are traveling up towards the pushing magnet. Not sure if this can be offset with a flywheel, smaller/angled pushing magnet or using the curve of a diametric magnet to lessen the effect. I haven't had the time to build it to see.

Based on the principle of the rubber band heat engine.

Which video/design do you mean? (the one you tried and turned out static)

I am actually at the moment looking at a good way to make a decent pendulum that can only move to one direction (using a ratchet system). I have tried some things using a bicycle wheel and it is hard to attach the weights just the way I want. Still, I could see an effect.

Nope, if i want to really test this I will have to build a real wheel and either use pendulum weights and a magnet or pendulum weights and a small ventilator with spider fingers to displace the weights.

In theory two weights would be enough.