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## Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: johnny874 on April 06, 2012, 07:46:42 PM

Title: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 06, 2012, 07:46:42 PM
@All,
I will be open sourcing what I believe to be a simple and somewhat easy way of building a Bessler type wheel.
The reason I consider to be a Bessler type of wheel is it will be based solely on his drawings. As it is built if
people believe that certain of his statements or witnesses descriptions relate to it, that is for them to consider.
What I will be demonstrating is not only the mechanics, the math but also one way it can be done. There are
different ways of fabricating things, I will be showing a way that is something that will work for me. This will
include what tools I use, how I use them and even how I will build my fixtures.
By sharing such information open and freely, this will allow anyone interested in Bessler or this type of build
to be able to do so without needing a background in engineering, machining or manufacturing.
As a result, I will also be posting the math behind how I have chosen to layout my fixtures and build processes.
With this type of build, a familiarity with trigonometry is helpful. And even without this, using an online trig
calculator and referencing a trigonometry table will be helpful. I use them myself.
The first step with this type of build is knowing how to layout 8 sections to form a hectagon. This will allow for
the routing of a board warping fixture, for supports and curved parts. To understand this, it is necessary to remeber
that a circular has 8 45 degree sections. And each section has 2 - 22.5 degree sections. This is important because as
the wheel curves, the distance from center of a 45 degree section will be more than either end.
In the attached drawing, there is a straight line from 90 to 135 degrees. at midpoint, it is 112.5 degrees. When doing
a laying out like this, you can see where the depth of the radius in the board will matter. And by knowing this, the fixture
can be built to both rout the outer support parts as well as the board warping fixture.
I will be using 4x4's as they are inexpensive which will help to keep costs down as well as offer a lot of support for the
work that will be accomplished.

Jim

edited to add picture, have to redo it later, empty file for some reason.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 09, 2012, 01:17:14 PM
Tonight I'll buy the cutter / bit I need and a 4x4 and see if it is something I can do. If so, I'll post a picture tomorrow.
Power supply is a bit of a concern. Just figuring the gauge of wiring might not carry enough current
to operate the router properly.
If so, then on Wednesday I would be able to start preparing to build the board warping fixture. It is the most
important part of pursuing this type of build.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2012, 01:29:38 PM
Great initiative.

There is a problem with the layout you have attached: I cannot access it. (It downloads as 0 bytes)

Thanks.

Edit: ah just saw you had trouble attaching it.

Once you have your schematics IÂ´ll try and make a WorkingModel.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: Rafael Ti on April 09, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
I support you Jim  :) Wish you to overcome any problems you can meet. And yes, I confirm your attachment downloads as O bits file...
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 09, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
Great initiative.

There is a problem with the layout you have attached: I cannot access it. (It downloads as 0 bytes)

Thanks.

Edit: ah just saw you had trouble attaching it.

Once you have your schematics IÂ´ll try and make a WorkingModel.

A-Z,
I'll see what I can do about a schematic. I think something that would show even the basic behavior might help to understand what I'm working on and believe Bessler did.
If you look in the thread Christ started called Bessler's Brilliant Machine, you'll see where I posted 2 drawings.
If you can understand those mechanics, then the modifications I made will be easier to understand.

@Raphael, thanks. I'm thinking I can rent a generator which would ensure I have the necessary power supply. at least for routing anyway. The router is 10 amps and everything else is 3.
If I go that route, then Sunday I would be doing what I can to get the warped board fixture built and ready for routing.

Jim

edited to add; A-Z, they say Bessler had one wheel that made 8 knocking sounds per revolution. With Mt's 66 & 67, if the lever lands on the hub when the lever is moving upwards and on the way down, if it is pushing a curved board against a round board circling the wheel, that would be something that people might understand.
If you can help with something like this, I know I'll appreciate it   :)

edited to add; Auqa, I know it can be a lot of work doing a simulation. What might be a good idea is to do a basic one and see if it is something that you're interested in. It might not be. Tonight when I get home, I'll post what might be something simple that might help everyone to understand what I'm working on.

Jim

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 10, 2012, 12:59:12 AM
Great initiative.

There is a problem with the layout you have attached: I cannot access it. (It downloads as 0 bytes)

Thanks.

Edit: ah just saw you had trouble attaching it.

Once you have your schematics IÂ´ll try and make a WorkingModel.

AquariuZ,
Do you think you could make something like the attached pic ? Even with only two levers, I think it would help.
The lever on top left would fall and hit the hub. The one on the bottom right would drop and close the pump.
What I'll be building will actually have a tube running all the way around the wheel. And when each section
closes, it will pump water or other fluid upwards.
With this design, the 8 knocks people heard would be possible. And with a different lever performing work, then
how the wheel could maintain it's imbalance might be understood. I have had difficulty trying to explain tis idea,
anything you do would be much appreciated.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 10, 2012, 04:14:20 AM
@alk.
on wednesday I wijl upload some drawings I have done.
The last one will be what the first pic should have been.
What I posted maintains the link with Bessler.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2012, 10:08:46 AM
Hi John,

I prefer to wait until wednesday until I have a clearer picture of what you are trying to achieve.

I like the idea of a fluid being pumped, but that begs the questions:

Do you think Bessler used fluids? Pumps? How about springs?

IÂ´ve spent many a day and night on WM models that looked promising but in the end turned out not to work in real world due to friction issues. (Like Abeling most likely - thatÂ´s why in the end he wanted to use a completely glass structure).

ItÂ´s always friction.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 11, 2012, 06:24:14 PM
Hi John,

I prefer to wait until wednesday until I have a clearer picture of what you are trying to achieve.

I like the idea of a fluid being pumped, but that begs the questions:

Do you think Bessler used fluids? Pumps? How about springs?

IÂ´ve spent many a day and night on WM models that looked promising but in the end turned out not to work in real world due to friction issues. (Like Abeling most likely - thatÂ´s why in the end he wanted to use a completely glass structure).

ItÂ´s always friction.

AquariuZ,
This is the basic mechanics I'll be using. If a lever has a 5:1 ratio, then a
1 pound weight will generate 5 pounds of force (capable of moving 5 pounds).
If the water or fluid being pumped weighs 1 or 2 pounds, then obviously there
is / should be extra force.
What I like about it is where the extra weight (water or other fluid) is. It would
always be where it creates the most force, on the outside of the wheel.
This would mean that 1 pound of water if it is 2 feet from the center of the
wheel would have 2 foot pounds of torque. And as an example, if a wheel weighs
20 pounds, would it be sufficient force to rotate the wheel ?
Spelled everything out for people not familiar with SAE standards.

Back to your questions AquaZ, I think something like this has a lot of potential
and in one of Bessler's drawings, he showed an Archimedes pump. Pictograph ?
Maybe.
With springs, Webby1 came up with an idea I like. The way he used springs was
to maintain tension. That is something that could help the movement be more
precise like in a pendulum clock.

Jim

edited to add; the second drawing shows about where the fluid would be. Between the
moveable inner boards and the moveable outer boards.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2012, 11:40:19 PM
Jim,

It looks rather complicated (as in: I do not get it).

IÂ´m looking into something with clutches right now which might interest you.

This has been bugging me for days.

What do you think?
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2012, 03:14:56 AM
IÂ´ll be busy with this for a while.

http://www.overunity.com/12241/accelerating-wheel-modelled-under-real-world-conditions-could-it-be/

What do you think?
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 18, 2012, 04:48:20 PM
have order some material to work with. it will let me know what i'm working with.
it will be boring. you know, actually building something  :o
have an idea what it will look like but will take time to make it happen. if things had gio ne better for me (not being discriminated against for my hearing loss), could've enjoyed it more.
but fortunately for me, i thought trying to work around a problem (other people's perception of me) was better than giving in. of course, my own family should have known better but they didn't.
doubt i'll make june 6th but that's not as important as making a good go of it.
if people like alan and chris weren't so out spoken, might've got ralph to try it. but then, he'd probably take credit for realizing it's potential. and if he couldn't do that, then things would be pretty much the same but without experts who show nothing.
of course, to convert gravity, the wheel i'm working on would be converting the potential force of one mass into the angular momentum of another. if engineering allows for it then nothing in physics is being violated.
have realized one aspect that does seem to have been over looked by everyone and that is that force is f = m(a+1). And that is if velocity is zero. of course, Newton realized that about a body at rest but not one in motion. as to liebniz, he might have improperly realized this as mv^2. of course, it can have 2 meanings. in simple objects like a car being driven, the f=m(a+1) might apply while with something travelling much faster, then mv^2 would apply. an example of this would be a meteor or an asteroid.
it has been observed that thresholds in velocity can change the harmonics of a mass. a basic example is a steam turbine engine. it can have 2 or 3 different thresholds where the harmonics change. where that is an accepted engineering principle, not sure why the same principle couldn't apply to matter.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 19, 2012, 01:27:20 PM
Kind of funny, I'm doing this now because I know how to do it. But as AB Hammer said, he is my teacher.
Could be why it's become a dead subject. Of course, the metal he works with is cold and dead just like the metal my father worked with. And one day, AB will teach my dad engineering to show what a generous person he is.
Kind of why I don't like Christians, they can't stand to see someone do something.
Of course, when my dad asked me about doing what can't be done and told me my life will be better when I become an immigrant makes me believe he knew about Bessler. He is quite knowledgeable about obscure facts.
Did have a good life but people were jealous. Guess a willingness to learn and work towards something is unAmerican. Of course, this isn't what I wanted in my life as there are much better things and when someone has an absence of life, it kind of suggests that there is nothing difficult about it if a person has the time to consider something.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 22, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
@ all,
wont bore you guys anymore with the details of work.
what everyone misses is how much overbalance does it take to lift 70 lbs.  the answer should be obvious.
something like doing 4x the work.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: truesearch on April 23, 2012, 04:42:38 PM
@johnny874:

Hey, keep the rest of us posted with your progress! I'm interested in what you make work.

truesearch
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 25, 2012, 12:18:31 AM

truesearch,

I just heard from johnny874 that he is having trouble for some reason posting and he asked me to let you know.

Thanx Webby1   :D
@All, this drawing is something I thought of a while ago. It's Mt 24. And while the levers never move to the outside
of the wheel, it's not really necessary. Mt 20 shows it better. And the quote by Bessler I think is one of the most important clues.
It's like I mentioned to Webby1, that by using leverage, a 1 lb. weight can pump 1 1/2 to twice it's own weight. And with what I am
working on, that is 20r*2*3.142/8 = about 15 1/2 inches. The last number is the lift of the weight. And the drop of the 1 lb. weight ?
Using a 4:1 ratio for leverage, it could be as little as 3/8 * 4 = 12/8 or 1 1/2 inches.
And if you divide the 15 1/2 by 1 1/2, that's a ratio of  10 inches of lift for every inch a weight drops. And the weight being lifted is
also heavier. Of course, if you don't like math, then this is something that would never be.
Myself, have used rotary tools and tried this. and now I have a router, a drill press, and an 18volt circular saw and drill. Much better
prepared. I am hoping to build the main fixture this weekend. If so, then the following weekend I should be able to start amking parts.
I still want to buy a generator to ensure proper power supply for the router.
The quote by Bessler on Mt 20 "No. 20: Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."
What is interesting is if the short levers rotate in the counter clockwise direction, one would be lifted as another drops. What is more interesting is the reference to "special" weights. If the weights are soild masses like any other, then what would be special about them ?

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 28, 2012, 03:51:04 PM
@All,
I may modify the build process I was planning on using.
Having experience with precision manufacturing, it is something I would like
to carry over in my build. What I do understand is that I can simplify the process.
This would hurt the quality of the build. To most, it might not be noticeable, but
I would know it. There are some things I have learned when i was trained on CATIA.
It's a design engineering program that would be Cad 3D on steroids. And something
Bessler might have realized also as a way of making things easier for himself.
Since the wheel is composed of 8 identical sections, the parts can be manufactured
using parts made one after another using the same process. Then later, they can be
assembled with other parts to make what are called sub-assemblies. The wheel as a
whole would be consider a final assembly. And each group of parts that are assembled
together such as each weight and lever or pump and lever would be different sub-assemblies.
And using this concept might be the best way to go for the initial umpteenth build.
I have tried various build processes using rotary tools which is why I have purchased the
necessary equipment to work to a better standard.
It is interesting to think about, if Bessler realised the same thing, then he might have been
able to invent aspects of mass production well before anyone else would have thought of it.
This would be as I mentioned, his wheels would have had repeating sections which would
have benefitted from being made using modern manufacturing techniques. It is a possibility.
If I use thie alternate build method, then maybe next week i'll be able to post some pics.
It is something that most will find boring until they see it all start coming together. And it
might be this that helps everyone to understand how the mechanics work to ensure a balanced
imbalance is maintaned.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 28, 2012, 08:57:09 PM
@All,
Yep, am modifying the build process. have thought of what might be the best way to go about it without a full shop to work out of, maybe one day if I continue past this build.
Here are some pics of what I got done to day and what my shop looks like. I have 1/4 inch oak plywood I'm gluing together to make a radial router compass. This will allow me to do nice, neat radii  8)
The first pic is a drill jig. I still need to drill a hole in it. This will allow me to use locating pins in the boards I will be routing. This will allow everything to be as precise as possible and hopefully will ensure a better mating of the parts.
The 2nd pic is the routing fixture. I still need to add a few pieces to it to accommodate travel of the router past the board being routed.
Tomorrow I'll make the saw jig. it will allow me to use my circular saw to cut the boards to precise lengths and angles.
By taking the time to make these extra tools, in the end, I will save time and should be able to do a much better build. And if all works out, it might become a standard for other people who might wish to build this type of will as it will help to keep costs low.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 29, 2012, 09:39:55 PM
@ all,
have tn
hold up a while.
need to buy a table router.
Only one way to build. and this worth doing it right.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: christo4_99 on April 30, 2012, 04:16:50 AM
You can bolt your router ( with the plate taken off ) to a 2" X 1/4"  X 3' piece of white wood with a hole drilled in it if you need to cut  a circle of less than 6' .
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on April 30, 2012, 09:28:27 PM
You can bolt your router ( with the plate taken off ) to a 2" X 1/4"  X 3' piece of white wood with a hole drilled in it if you need to cut  a circle of less than 6' .

Chris,
I talked to a friend of mine here at work about building a table.
What I've decided is with how much there is to this build, I would be
better off waiting and buying a router table.
The first thing I need to rout is a slot so I can make an adjustable radius
tool for my router. Some of the parts will need 3 or 4 different cuts made.
After that, it will be the assembly fixture. Of course, there are also the levers
and the edging on the stand.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 01, 2012, 12:15:25 AM
@All,
By waiting, I'll also be able to purchase a miter saw which will be helpful.
I think when all is said and done, everyone will be glad I took the long road.
With this build, I am letting it dictate what I need to do. It is a rare opportunity.
As such, the work I do, if successful, will also be a reflection on Bessler and
his work. This is something I am mindful of. It would be like saying I have a
God given ability to understand certain principles in math and then to leave it
all behind for haste. Yet some say a person should make good use of thier God
given gifts. It has taken much time for me to learn things that would help me to
do this. I hope the work I demonstrate shows my commitment to my own life
and values how ever messed up I might be as a person.
Also, since I live in Appalachia, some of that might show up in some of the
accessories I build to work with. When I can, I will show them  :D

Jim

edited to add; I have made John Collins aware of my attempt and will be respectful
of the efforts he has put forth to make Bessler's work known. Still, I am working
independently and of course, this means on my own and by my own means.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 03, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
@All,
This weekend, I'll start work on parts. I might be able to
post a pic of the moveable part of the pump. While it might
look interesting, when you see how it works with the wheel,
I think you'll get it.
What this will do is help anyone who might try a build like this
to understand this build process and will know what to expect.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 06, 2012, 05:27:50 PM
@All,
Since I will be having surgery again on the 18th, I probably wont get much done before then.
I.ll be able to have a lot of the things I,ll need to do worked out.
I  watched woodsmithshop on pbs. Got me thinking I could get more use out of a table saw than I woud with a miter saw.
The shows put out a lot of good info.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 16, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
@All,
With surgery coming up Friday morning, I am going to rest.
My personal health just as anyone else's is a bit more important than a working pm device.
I will proceed a bit differently with my build when I am able to get back to it.
I'll show my work but not my processes. A part of the reason for this is people might say what an easy accomplishment it is if they are given all of the answers.
Still, what I will be able to show I think everyone will find interesting and when completed even more so.
What I do like about this is being able to recreate a part of history. I find it interesting myself. I think one thing Bessler's invention could have done which has been over looked is running water could have been provided to people's homes who lived in cities. It could have supported a more modern system than people such as the Indus River valley people of India did about 4,000 years ago. Could you have imagined a garvity fed system similar to what we use today ? Today, pumps are used to fill those water towers you see. Then gravity feeds the water to people's homes. This allows them to use several pumps to maintain the static head.
As such, his invention could have powered water wheels by pumping water up to a reservoir and having it flow down into a basin. It would have allowed for mills to be built where they wanted one. It might be the people around him just thought of money and not any advancement it could bring about in society. Such is history.

Jim

edited to reference Bessler (him) in the 2nd to last sentence
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 19, 2012, 08:24:43 PM
Saw a used table saw today. will buy it Monday if they can hold it for a couple of weeks.
Also watched rough Cuts and will give some thought to how they curved or warped boards. it might make for a much better build.
I watch most of the wood working shows on PBS which also include Wood Wright Shop and Woodsmith Shop. because of my background as a machinist and using a wide variety of tools, I take the time to consider how what they know might benefit me with my pursuit of a Bessler wheel. Helps to make things easier seeing experienced professionals using different tools and techniques in wood working. Of course, with those guys, they make it look easy because they have practiced their trade for a while.
With myself, I'll have to practice on something like pine so I can learn the techniques I'll be using a little better before using more expensive wood.

Jim

edited to modify a verb
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 22, 2012, 06:30:43 PM
Not sure when I will be able to get back to this. As things are, to open the door to my shop (it's an overhead door), it
could undo my latest surgery. That wouldn't be of any help.
I may just stick with the tools I have. Missing work and not being sure how things will be going for me in a couple of weeks means I should keep my money in the bank. Even with this uncertainty, when my doctor clears me, I can still build a routing table. Something that would be about 48 inches by 48 inches. I need somethng flat to route a wheel on, especially if it's about 40 inches in diameter.
The sections that would compose the wheel could be made using what I already have. And with what I saw on Rough Cuts, I am still considering how a router table might help me to do have a more professional go of it. So having some down time isn't such a bad thing, it allows for a review of what i want to do, see what's really necessary. In a build like this, if Bessler did it as I believe he did, then it has been about 300 years since soemone did something like this. Custom Build all the way.
And since I am a machinist by trade, it will take me a little getting used to working with power tools and equipment that I haven't used before. Watching the pro's on PBS doesn't make a pro, it does help me to know what I need to learn though. And it's that first part that I think is most important, realizing what I NEED to learn. Other wise, if I don't take the time to learn, then I can't progress, can I ?

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 25, 2012, 12:01:33 AM
@All,
Will probably start making the mols for my weights tonight.
Still, when I get finished building, I probably won't make it known.
AB Hammer hararrssed me for the last few years because he thought it was
something I could do. Why he refused to work with me and kept me from
finding someone to work with on it that did not have my medical issues
always causing problems.
Still, would be nice to know if my surgeon took care of my primary problem.
Don't know but would like to. My job depends on it as my employer has had the
legal right to terminate my employment any time they like. But they have given
me the opportunity to try and get it across to my surgeon that my medical issues
need to be resolved.
I think being involved in a build where the engineering itself is boring to people
kind of makes me wish I grew up in a different environment. After all, if what I
am working on proves correct, there really won't be anything for me to discuss. It
would be pretty obvious why it works.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 26, 2012, 11:39:16 PM
@All,
Watched the pros on woodsmithshop and is interesting.
They also made some curved pieces. I think I'll stay with what i have.
I did see a clamping technique they used which will be helpful. That and
they did show how to use laminates for curved pieces which wheels seem to use a
lot of. I'll be off line until Tuesday. Maybe I can show a start on this. It has
been a long time coming.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 31, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
@All,
Have ordered the wood I'll be using to build the wheel with.
This weekend, I'll start building the form I'll be using. Then,
when I recieve the wood (it's special order basically), I'll
have to prep it (sand it) and then cut it into sections for
gluing together.
When I have the form built, as simple as it will be, I'll post
a pic of it and how I'm assembling the different parts of the
wheel.

Jim

If a wheel of this type has 22 pounds of over balance at 78 inches (6.5ft.) or 10kg's @ 2 meters, how much torque is that ?
In SAE (American value), it's about 143 foot pounds of torque. How much energy could be harnessed from a generator with that much free energy being supplied to it ? I don't know myself. Maybe someone who knows electric motors can answer this question.
Bessler's 12 foot wheel would have had this potential for producing work. I think in seeing the intelligence shown in his drawings let's me understand he was someone who was ahead of his time.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on May 31, 2012, 06:50:24 PM
@All,
I found an online converter  :D
The wheel I am building rotating at 60 rpm could produce 25 watts of
power having 2 lbs. (.9kg) of over balance.
With a larger wheel have 22 lbs. (10kg's) @ 6.5 ft (2 meters) and rotating
at 20 rpm would produce 400 watts of power.
I can see about using an axle/hub assembly that could be changed out for
one that could power a small generator.
Maybe I should thank Mr. Wayne. Really wouldn't have been concerned
about power output if not for his claims.

Jim

http://www.magtrol.com/support/motorpower_calc.html (http://www.magtrol.com/support/motorpower_calc.html)
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: Rafael Ti on May 31, 2012, 09:47:56 PM
Hi Jim
Unfortunately your converter does not convert kilograms of gravity into Watts...  :( , does it?
How are you doing after surgery? How is your work going?
I think I've found a concept ensuring the weights to move on perfect path...
This is a path we actually need.. one of the lower quartercircle of wheel.. left or right depending on direction of rotation.
It is possible to achieve it in easy way using wheels and also... together with a good timing of dropping weights.

All the best.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 01, 2012, 01:54:12 AM
Hi Jim
Unfortunately your converter does not convert kilograms of gravity into Watts...  :( , does it?
How are you doing after surgery? How is your work going?
I think I've found a concept ensuring the weights to move on perfect path...
This is a path we actually need.. one of the lower quartercircle of wheel.. left or right depending on direction of rotation.
It is possible to achieve it in easy way using wheels and also... together with a good timing of dropping weights.

All the best.

Raphael,
If you know the distance from it's axle, then you can calculate torque. I'm not literate in the metric system as to what most people use for force.
In the U.S., foot pounds are most common. I can see about finding conversions for metric/U.S. values so everyone will have a common basis when force is discussed. You know, something they can relate to.
On Saturday, I am going to make a video of 2 weights. One will be at the level of the axle and the other at bottom center. I did this before and got almost 90 degrees of rotation. Maybe I'll get similar results that I can show you.
See my 1st doctor tomorrow. If all goes well, I'll have one last surgery next Friday. Then I'll be able to enjoy our hobby that much more  :D

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 02, 2012, 03:17:20 PM
@Rapheal,
You got me to realise something. 40 inches (what I am working with) and using 2 pounds of weight
is close to 1/2 Nm or Newton Metre of force. That would be 1 kg @ 1 metre (1 Nm or N-m) and
1/2 Nm @ 60 rpm would generate an immpressive 3.14 watts of power. I think it's funny that with
those numbers that watts is close to Pi which is 3.142 etc., etc.
I just ckecked and it seems like that is the relationship between watts and radius if calculated @ 60 rpm.
Now we have a simple method of understanding how many watts of power something can generate.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 03, 2012, 03:33:55 PM
@All,
It will be a while before I can do anything meaningful with this. If I take shortcuts, then it wouldn,t be worth it to me.
I might modify the 4 weighted wheel. That is something where different configurations can be tried to better understand acceleration.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 06, 2012, 07:20:57 PM
Hi Jim
Unfortunately your converter does not convert kilograms of gravity into Watts...  :( , does it?
How are you doing after surgery? How is your work going?
I think I've found a concept ensuring the weights to move on perfect path...
This is a path we actually need.. one of the lower quartercircle of wheel.. left or right depending on direction of rotation.
It is possible to achieve it in easy way using wheels and also... together with a good timing of dropping weights.

All the best.

Raphael,
Hope you like this video. it's pretty basic, it shows one weight accelerating another one.
What might be of interest is it's efficiency. I'll be able to make some more videos showing
some of the principles behind Bessler's wheel. At the same time, someone might see
where those same principles could be used differently.
With what the video shows is the basic relationship between f (force) and (=) ma (mass multiplied by acceleration).
In a wheel, weights will need to be rotated and understanding how f=ma applies will help to understand
how much force (energy) might be needed and about how much work the wheel could generate (free energy).

Jim

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: FatBird on June 06, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Here are some that work.  The SELF FLOWING Flask could be SCALED UP
to power a Water Wheel TURNING a GENERATOR.

FREE POWER 24 Hours a day, FOREVER!  How much more SIMPLE can it get?

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 06, 2012, 09:21:55 PM
Here are some that work.  The SELF FLOWING Flask could be SCALED UP
to power a Water Wheel TURNING a GENERATOR.

FREE POWER 24 Hours a day!  How much more SIMPLE can it get?

FatBird,
I'm just wondering if you're manipulating it some how. The reason for this is that
with static heads, the total volume doesn't matter, only what is above the tube.
All this means is that the levels of the flask and the tube should be at the same level.
Of course, with Bessler, I think in time you will understand how he used hydraulics
differently and in reality, his wheel is ingenious.
Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 06, 2012, 10:49:30 PM
Here are some that work.  The SELF FLOWING Flask could be SCALED UP
to power a Water Wheel TURNING a GENERATOR.

FREE POWER 24 Hours a day, FOREVER!  How much more SIMPLE can it get?

FatBird,
Is that your wood working ? What I can do is build a section of the wheel
to demonstrate the principle itself. One thing about it is I will be giving away
how to use warped boards without doing to much work. This would probaly
be the most difficult part of the build.
Who knows, maybe you'll find it interesting enough to maybe try yourself.
I mean if you are a part of that group, you might find this a bit more interesting
than other people and possibly worth trying.
About my health, I'll send you a pm of why it's such a problem and why right now
I'm not really interested in doing much.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: FatBird on June 07, 2012, 12:31:38 AM
Johnny,

I hope everything goes perfect for your recovery sir.

.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 07, 2012, 12:48:25 AM
Johnny,

I hope everything goes perfect for your recovery sir.

.

Thanks FatBird. I am hoping to have a "working" demonstration of what I believe Bessler
knew oh so long ago. I think it is something you and everyone else will like.
And who knows, maybe while I am incapcitated, maybe someone or some people in here will want to give it a go. I'll be able to post some cost saving tips like using plywood to make some parts with. A lot of parts can be made out of a 4 x8 sheet of 1/4" plywood.
The warped wood routine might be a bit pricy but is a labor saver. Some tools for this type of build that would be helpful are a router, a circular saw, a work bench (call me Mr. obvious), and if someone has any wood working experience, it would be helpful but not a must. Just helps having worked with power tools for safety and having a good go of things.
For drilling straight holes, with out a drill press, gluing 2 boards together will make a good alignment tool. They did that on woodsmithshop on PBS.
I'll post some of the demonstration as the build technique would be similar.
Something for you guys to think about  ;) :D

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: KanShi on June 07, 2012, 10:08:27 AM
How to build it? Easy. Do the same thing Bessler did:
Create a big, heavy wheel, put some weights in it to make noise, make a hole in the wall to the next room, get your wife/girlfriend/maid/brother/... to give it a boost once in a while using a pole.

The only 2 people who claimed it worked were Bessler and the man who paid him (Charles I). A maid even testified (under oath) that she and several others were in on the scam. It's all about who do you believe: physics, scientists and maid under oath vs. an eccentric inventor and his employer. Would be really great, though - unlimited energy ;)
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 07, 2012, 03:59:07 PM
@All,
The video is a basic demonstration of hydraulic theory. Using leverage of about 10:1,
the force acting on a hydraulic piston can be increased. To further increase this potential,
use another hydraulic piston. This happens because one side of the piston has a smaller surface area resulting in lower volume and higher pressure.
This performs a lot of work. The hydraulic jack in the video is rated at 4,000 lbs. Yet if the process were reversed, the 4,000 lbs. could only lift the handle back to it's starting position.
Ha, ha, ha, I think I found out why everyone has failed with the Travis Effect, lmao !!
It isn't performing any work. This means that it would have to physically lift a mass, let it's pressure in the static head be relieved and then let the heavy mass compress the hydraulic cylinder. This means that when a heavy cap is lifted, that the hydraulic pressure lifting it is only acting on the cap. Then when the pressure is relieved, the cap's weight is on the hydraulic piston performing a separate function.
And according U.S. Patent Law, I could claim it as my own invention if I wanted to as the improvement would be mine. But I prefer Bessler's wheel.  ;D  Wayne can have it. :P :P
Now I see why my father wrote me out of his will. It was he wanted me to do something instead of be like my brothers who got a nice [size=78%]inheritance[/size][size=78%]. They might have gotten a lot of money but will probably end up wasting it. And with me ? Have believed he wanted me to give Bessler's wheel a try and have posted such before as he believed I was smart enough to figure it out and then be able to live a normal life. He knows what discrimination is like being from Europe and has seen how people react to my hearing loss. What he didn't understand is that sometimes these things take time to figure out and do a good job of it. Such as the build I am doing, I would want it to be one that Bessler and my father would be proud of. And no, my father was not an easy man to please unless he didn't expect much from you. Then he'd just give you some money.[/size]
Back to Bessler, what he did was to use the hydraulic principle to move high volume at low pressure. this means instead of pumping 6 ounces of fluid at 100 psi, he pumped 20 lbs. of fluid at a higher velocity allowing his wheel to maintain continuous or perpetual motion.
This is because he used sequential pumping. This means that one pumped work and then the next one and then the one after that. And that would be his secret if it were one. it is in his drawings.
Tried to make the drawing smaller but couldn't.

Jim
almost forgot the link to the video  >:( :o
edited to add: may wait until after resolving my medical issues to do any work. Money is tight and don't wish to do something that doesn't illustrate very well what I am trying to explain. It might only make things more confusing.
Jim
p.s. not sure if you will understand this, but if you have 8 levers on a wheel and rotate it, there is no over or under balance. The levers motions are all cancelled out by the opposing lever. The main reason no one has been successful.
Where free energy comes into play is that the lever has more force than the water it is pumping upward. As the water pumps up, this causes the wheel to rotate in the opposite direction. when this happens, the next lever will have more force than the water and will repeat the pumping of the water. And this is why it's perpetual.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 07, 2012, 08:54:47 PM
@All,
This video shows the potential of the mechanics I've been discussing.
What I'll probably do is start building a 29 inch diameter wheel. it would
have weight ratios close to what is in the video.
I'll need to do some math to make sure on the actual weights and over balance I'll be using.
This way I can keep my sanity. Not being able to do much is an easy way to lose it if you know
what I mean.
Between money being tight and my not being that up on things right now, I'll see if I can't pace
some re-enforcing screws. It will be adjustable so I can radius the supports for the inner and outer
wheel assemblies. These parts are what the warped boards will be attached to and will be the
main part of the wheel.
Who knows, maybe I'll have this first part finished before surgery (sux) and then i'll have to wait until
I won't need happy pills  :P :o 8)

Jim

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: FatBird on June 08, 2012, 01:19:56 AM
Johnny, you can save yourself a lot of work & grief if you watch the Video below.

They have several examples of working units that you want to build.

.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 08, 2012, 04:53:07 PM
Johnny, you can save yourself a lot of work & grief if you watch the Video below.

They have several examples of working units that you want to build.

.

FatBird,
I did watch the video. So far in the few years I have spent trying to understand Bessler, I haven't
seen anything like this. it's okay if it doesn't work, it is my hobby  :D
I could waste more money on something that I would find less interesting. And if it works, then
it'll be the coolest pm device on the net  8)
Bessler did leave an explanation of how some of it worked in his drawings. He used both word clues and
pictographs (I think that's what they're called). You know, obvious picture clues. But like the quote
Chris Wells posted, it takes understanding how many of his drawings work together. It does take quite
a few of them, not just 3 or 4, but a lot more.
In understanding how his mechanics work, Mt's 20 and 24 I think are a good start. But to consider how
pumping a fluid can maintain a constant imbalance, that would be Mt's 66 and 67. One of them actually
shows a piston on a shaft. And it has a cylinder around the piston. He understood at least some principles
of hydraulic theory.
With Mt 20, the quote he gives lets someone know how to reconfigure that wheel so it can "lift" his special
weight. Considering he showed in his drawings that he understood that fluids could be pumped, I believe
his special weight is a fluid of some type. What he actually used will probably never be known.
What is missed about Mt 20 is that if the rotation of the short lever is reversed, it would press against the
outside of the wheel. In other drawings, he references a channel going around the outside of the wheel with
a weight in it. I think when considering Mt's 26 and 27  that in Mt 27, E is a weight wheel but not one that rolls.
Hold it, a curved board that is shaped like the wheel could be considered in the same vein, a rolling weight. It
would have the appearance of rolling around on the inside of the wheel. And if the fluid is in a channel (tube),
it would be pumped because of compression. Also, Mt 67 shows "bellows" around the outside of the wheel.
Putting the 2 concepts together allows for an ingenious thought. It might take some time for it to sink in to the
point where everyone can understand it. But in learning to understand something new does take time.
I think one of the reasons why he used so many drawings to "hide" his design is that he wanted someone
willing to take the time to learn his engineering and to make it difficult for someone to find, you know, not let
someone find it who might not appreciate what he (Bessler) knew. I think this is something that is important
to him that someone has respect for his work while making it known. This would go to his using the name
Orrfyreus which is a reference to the Lyre of Orpheus. In mythology, Hermes invented the lyre but it was
Orpheus who made it sing. Everyone has considered Bessler to have Latinized his name because they asked
him in his time if he thought he was Orpheus to which he correctly answered no. You see, he would be
Hermes and I would be Orpheus. And why would i be Orpheus ? Because I will be the one makes his wheel sing.
This will not just be building a working model. It will be relating Bessler's intelligence, understanding the history
that he has surrounded it with and those things he saw which inspired him. Also, I think all those things in his
drawings where he is referencing things and yet those references are consider to be workable when they are not.
One thing I have thought of is that I will not make everything known. I will leave some things for people to
wonder about to so there will always be a little mystery and intrigue in the works of Johann Bessler.
By the way, I'll need to stay with the 40 inch radius I've been planning on building. With a smaller wheel, while
it can be tempting wouldactually prove to be a more difficult first build.

Johnny

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:MT#Drawings (http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:MT#Drawings)

p.s. a drawing of how I outline the basic wheel. I break it down into 8 - 45 degree sections (8x45=360).
Then I break down a 45 degree section into 2 - 22.5 degree sections (22.5x2=45). This allows me to know
how much space the part will occupy and what the size of material I will need. And by taping the 8 sections
together, I can test fit them to make sure they all fit together (mate) so when the parts are routed, they will
all fit together to make a nice inner and outer rings to support the warped boards.
This part is called design engineering. The concept of fitting form to function. The working wheel would be
mechanical engineering, building it and keeping it working. Different disciplines.  :D  Engineering might not
be the most popular hobby but I like it. And who knows, maybe I'll end up with a family. You know, people
cause me problems because of my hearing loss and I come up with a response like this while going through
all my medical issues. I just wonder if I have any sanity left. I do, but I'm not the same person I was a few years ago.

edited to run spell check
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 08, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
@All,
This is the wood I will be using for the inner and outer rings. Each 8 foot section will
make 6 inner and outer pieces. A total of 16 will be needed. Will make some extra parts
in case I make mistakes, have problems but will need some pieces for setting up jigs or
fixtures I will be using to make the parts with.
This will allow me to make all the parts one after another using a mass production method
as all 8 sections of the wheel will be the same. Between now and next week, I will be
making the tooling I'll be needing. This will include an adjustable radius tool for my router
and a jig for making somewhat precise 22.5 degree cuts on 2 sections at the same time. By
sawing to boards (mating end to end) at the same time, they should fit to from a 45 degree
angle which is what will be of more importance than if the angle of cut is off by a few degrees.
As i get into the build, I will explain in ore detail some of the things I'll eb doing to ensure a strong enough structure to support the work load.

Johnny

http://www.lowes.com/pd_1093-99899-08457_0__?productId=3602588&Ntt=1+x+6+x+8+poplar&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D1%2Bx%2B6%2Bx%2B8%2Bpoplar&facetInfo (http://www.lowes.com/pd_1093-99899-08457_0__?productId=3602588&Ntt=1+x+6+x+8+poplar&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D1%2Bx%2B6%2Bx%2B8%2Bpoplar&facetInfo)=
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 09, 2012, 02:34:34 AM
@All,
One concern I have about openly posting my work on Bessler is someone like mrwayne building it. This because he would say what a favor he is doing me.
The truth is he claims to have spent over 40,000 dollars on something without spending a couple of hundred dollars to make sure it works first.
And now ? And now he is missing the attention he thought he should have.
May need to build off line.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: TinselKoala on June 09, 2012, 02:52:22 PM
But I thought MrWayne already had a working, self-powered prototype? Why should he want to build your idea when he's got that groaning hydraulic thing self-powering itself and lighting up lights and everything?
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: FatBird on June 11, 2012, 01:00:39 AM
Good points Jim.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: maw2432 on June 11, 2012, 10:55:05 PM
Hi all,
I think a Bessler wheel working will require a special understanding of how levers work.
Bill

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 12, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
But I thought MrWayne already had a working, self-powered prototype? Why should he want to build your idea when he's got that groaning hydraulic thing self-powering itself and lighting up lights and everything?

TK,
try pumping water through a funnel. it creates  a lot of back pressure.
@Bill, I might be able to do a simple demonstration of a water pump. It would be using a bellow.
If they can pump air, they can pump water. that is a part of as you put it so well, was his special understanding
of levers  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 12, 2012, 07:58:13 PM
Hi all,
I think a Bessler wheel working will require a special understanding of how levers work.
Bill

Bill,
This is the understanding I've been working from. With this example, a wheel could be an octagon.
This is because it would have 8 sections. This would coincide with Bessler saying he used 8 weights.
As anyone knows, weighted levers can't produce an over balance. What you gain on one side, you lose
on the other. It seems what Bessler might have realized is the empty space they have on the way down.
If a bellow were placed in this spot, then it might provide free energy. Where I drew the black lines in,
is a pivot point that could allow the bellows to close completely or close to it. This is something basic.
Still, the 8 sections all need to be equal lengths and everything needs to be square. But I thnk everyone
might understand the idea behind this. If the lever is twice the length of the bellow, then it can perform
twice the work it's weight allows for. And of course, as the wheel rotates, the levers fall in toward center.
This means they won't interfere with the water being pumped up. If so, then work would be lost in moving
them.

Jim

p.s. the weight near bottom would try to stay under it's fulcrum so it would already be pumping water up even higher.
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 12, 2012, 10:31:07 PM
@All,
A little explanation of compression pumping in the video I an posting a link to.
One thing that it might help to understand is that the wider the bellows opens, the
lower the water will sit in the pump. This would require a lot more work to perform
the same function.
I'll see about making a simple demo that shows how a basic wheel could be built. And
it would show everything a bit better. What some people mind find disappointing is I
will limit how much water is used. And with how I showed the bellows could be
configured to close completely in the drawing I posted, I'll show how that arrangement
can be used the same way as the digram I posted for a hydraulic floor jack, and we all
know how well those work. Hmm, I already posted how, oops  :o
Not sure if anyone else will be interested in trying this (what I've posted). But a miter
saw, a couple clamps, wood glue, plastic and glue for the plastic might cost \$30 unless
you already have some tools. What you might find in trying it that you would have the
skill sets needed to build a Bessler type wheel. You might actually like it, just maybe.
Will give ya'all some time to think about it. While doing that, I'll build the demo and
then anyone who likes Bessler or perpetual wheels can give it a try if they like.

Jim

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 13, 2012, 09:57:43 PM

edited to change videos, will be working off line. it is a lot of work to develop a workable concept.

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 16, 2012, 05:36:27 PM
@All,
Since I know I'll be having surgery June 25th, might do a little work between now and then.
With the basic pump I've built, I can make some improvements to it like using bushing and
making the lever adjustable. This would let me do some developmental work, in simpler terms,
I'd have a better idea of what I'll need to do to get decent rotation out of the wheel.
Kind of like where rubber meets the road. This would be quite mportant. I have spent a lot
of time working on how to build it, and this would let me know how the mechanics would
need to work.

Jim
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 18, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
I've added notations to some of my videos as well as adding this one.
A simple way to build a round wheel and why it will work. I will be improving
the pump I built. While it will work better, it won't mean much unless building
a wheel of this type is something you plan on doing.
I have realized I will need to build 2 wheels. One about 20 inches in diameter
and the 40 inch diameter wheel I've been pursuing. The smaller wheel will be
good for working on my build technique and understanding the realities of getting
this type of invention to work.
I have sent a link to my channel to John Collins and rlortie. I think they will take
a passive interest to be safe after wht has been said about me pursuing this work.

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 19, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
think i will start dismantling mx shop tomorrow.
can always build later on.

Bye
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 19, 2012, 04:40:57 PM
@All,
The outline in the attachment will show some basic relationships which need
to be understood. This is where the math I posted in m*d/t is helpful.
Using 1kg/9,8newtons of force as the base line for calculations, an understanding
of it's potential can be had.
If a mass of 1kg is needed to be moved, what needs to be remembered is that gravity
will be exerting 9.8 newtons of negative force. This would mean the weight on the lever
needs to account for this. With the dimensions in the diagram, a ratio of 6:3.75 is shown,
a ratio of 1.6:1. With this ratio,  a weight with 1.6 times the mass would have equal force
or potential. To lift it at 1/4 or .25 the speed of gravity or 2.7 m/s, a potential of 24 Newtons
plus the 9.8 Newtons acting against it for a total of 33.8 Newtons. This translates into a weight
with 2.15 times the mass of what is to be moved.
Resistance would rob the system of some energy but this would be able to be accounted for by
doing basic testing.
In reality, someone with a drill and a jig saw could probably build on of these.

Jim
p.s. the calculations are for 1kg. This is because 9.8 Newtons are the negative force which
is based on 1kg. For .5 or 1/2kg, then 4.9 Newtons would be the negative potential. Also,
the acceleration for the mass being lifted is based on 1kg. With 1/2 or .5kg mass, it would be
12 instead of 24. It would take someone a little practice to understand how to calculate what
weight would ne needed to try to obtain a specific result.
Then the next step would be to see if the engineering would allow for the mass of water or fluid.
Development of an idea is a step by step process, even one like Bessler's. reverse engineering is
not the simplest thing.

Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: KanShi on June 20, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
You may already know about it but you could download a free physics simulator and see some of your ideas in action (like Algodoo or OECake) before you actually build them. Those simulators are pretty basic and inaccurate (compared to professional software) but it's better than nothing, right?
Title: Re: How To Build A Bessler Type Wheel
Post by: johnny874 on June 20, 2012, 03:45:19 PM
You may already know about it but you could download a free physics simulator and see some of your ideas in action (like Algodoo or OECake) before you actually build them. Those simulators are pretty basic and inaccurate (compared to professional software) but it's better than nothing, right?

Hi Kanshi,
Unfortunately I don't have a computer to download a program onto other wise what you've suggested would be a good idea.
I know some people understand simultions better and is something that might help people to understand what I am trying to demonstrate.
With Bessler's wheel, one thing I have realized is that if the tube is not uniform in diameter, then it would slow the movement of water. This is because of the compression water is being placed under. This is one of the reasons concepts like the self filling flask can't work.
While it seems that a larger volume generates more force, with static heads it is only the smallest diameter that matters. The excess in a larger container would have no useable force. This is something I have tried to avoid with what i have been working on.
The pump in the videos has such a restriction. I could make a new tube that has a consistent diameter and show the difference. I might have to wait a couple of days to do this.

John