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Author Topic: quentron.com  (Read 1268055 times)

sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #645 on: December 28, 2012, 04:00:23 PM »
Ok....whatever you say. No tech, your no value to me.
I suspect that this is just some face-saving way to excuse yourself from the discussion.  Again if you READ MY POSTS you'll see that I do discuss more than people but people like YOU don't want to talk about those things.  Was my metaphor (taken unabashedly from V for Vendetta) about looking in the mirror too difficult?

If you're being honest here, which is doubtful then what could I possibly discuss with someone who doesn't know how to read?  At least in this scenario, perhaps if we met in person I could use visual aids or perhaps put on a little play or puppet show to explain things to you.  Otherwise we are at an impasse.

Quote
If you talk of concepts or ideas or theory, we talk to high class people.
If you talk of money and finances and investments, we talk to middle class.
People who talk about other people, are trying to pull themselves up or drag others down. (bottom feeders either way)
Drastic oversimplifications are handy aren't they?  With them you don't need to actually intellectually engage on an issue. You can just look at a list of a few simple rules and then POP your little brain need no longer worry about nagging questions.

Considering that all three of your rules are an example of someone talking about People - doesn't that mean you're - by your own logic a bottom feeder?  Just sayin'

Bruce_TPU

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #646 on: December 28, 2012, 07:25:03 PM »
Hi Lumen,
Trying to talk to Sarkeizen is like spitting in the wind.  It is best to ignore.  He is overly impressed with himself and will not listen.  I have stopped reading his posts.  Let's all just move the conversation without him, and if he responds, ignore said response. 
 
Cheers,
 
Bruce

lumen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #647 on: December 28, 2012, 08:07:49 PM »
He has been asking questions throughout, it was only (really) you who decided to start an argument!
I gave up asking questions when it was clear that nobody could really answer them - sarkaizen has some good questions, why not 'save face' and respond with answers?!

I guess even if the major questions cannot be answered (and they haven't been) then at least you are keeping this thread at the top of the list!!

Yes, you are correct! It always takes two to argue.

With that I must say : Sarkeizen my friend, all we do is argue anymore, So I'm leaving you.
 :)


Madebymonkeys

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #648 on: December 28, 2012, 08:08:47 PM »
Hi Lumen,
Trying to talk to Sarkeizen is like spitting in the wind.  It is best to ignore.  He is overly impressed with himself and will not listen.  I have stopped reading his posts.  Let's all just move the conversation without him, and if he responds, ignore said response. 
 
Cheers,
 
Bruce

There is no conversation, just trolls having a pop at people with sensible questions!
This whole rant appears to have been started by people asking technical questions and discussing doubt about the whole quenco principle!

How about rewinding a few posts and trying to answer some questions?!

lumen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #649 on: December 28, 2012, 08:27:12 PM »
Dude, I've made two points.  One Philip agrees with - that he sucks at management - which of course should imply something about his next deadline and the other he's been unwilling or unable to formulate an answer to - which was that he's violating information theory (and probably computational complexity theory)Why not just talk about all of the shortcomings of Philip and his hypothetical device?   Unless you have an agenda for keeping free thought down!  Philip doesn't even have a single Quenco - it's hard to call this a technology in that sense.

OK, Rewind:
Do you see any real questions in there?

Madebymonkeys

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #650 on: December 28, 2012, 08:41:46 PM »
OK, Rewind:
Do you see any real questions in there?

Ok, a simple one which I can't get my head around too well (although the answer could be quite simple)!:
How does I2R apply to quenco as a lossy system?
For example, with the 1cm^3, how does the quenco not go into thermal runaway if its powered by heat?
And if its powered by heat but it cools as it runs - where is the break even point where it fails to operate?!

It's looking more like a messed-up peltier to me with no practical method of maintaining a differential across it (cheaply and space efficiently).

As I implied, maybe I am missing something, if you can let me know the answers that would be awesome.

Madebymonkeys

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #651 on: December 28, 2012, 09:16:43 PM »
Ok, a simple one which I can't get my head around too well (although the answer could be quite simple)!:
How does I2R apply to quenco as a lossy system?
For example, with the 1cm^3, how does the quenco not go into thermal runaway if its powered by heat?
And if its powered by heat but it cools as it runs - where is the break even point where it fails to operate?!

It's looking more like a messed-up peltier to me with no practical method of maintaining a differential across it (cheaply and space efficiently).

As I implied, maybe I am missing something, if you can let me know the answers that would be awesome.

FYI, I am not disputing tunneling electrons (everyone knows that's proven) - I am just unsure how this can be a practical source of power. I am considering a system rather than quenco in isolation (which tbh could do whatever it likes but if its not possible to consume usable power from it then it falls flat on its ars#).

lumen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #652 on: December 28, 2012, 10:31:09 PM »
Ok, a simple one which I can't get my head around too well (although the answer could be quite simple)!:
How does I2R apply to quenco as a lossy system?
For example, with the 1cm^3, how does the quenco not go into thermal runaway if its powered by heat?
And if its powered by heat but it cools as it runs - where is the break even point where it fails to operate?!

It's looking more like a messed-up peltier to me with no practical method of maintaining a differential across it (cheaply and space efficiently).

As I implied, maybe I am missing something, if you can let me know the answers that would be awesome.

I thought the same thing, with low voltage output and high current, there is going to be a lot of heat that in turn would produce more current.

Additional layers to increase the voltage would help solve much of the local heating but when viewed correctly, there is no real problem.

Suppose you have a low voltage quenco between two heat sinks and only a heavy copper wire shorting the circuit.
The ambient heat will provide electron flow which in turn produces heat in the wire and in the heat sink. This heat originally was consumed from the environment inside the box and serves to help cool the wire and heat sink which reduces the output. However nothing actually changed since the heat produced is indeed the same heat that was consumed.

The process in this case may trap some of the initial heat from the environment inside the box in a loop within the heat sinks and wire, but when disconnected the heat would again balance out to starting conditions.

If you had two boxes, one with the quenco and heatsink and the other with the shorting wire, then the heat form the quenco would accumulate in the other box and the quenco box would become colder until infinity, except the process would become slower and slower as it cools.

The reason is that eventually in the colder environment the random encounters between electrons will less often occur that will energize any single electron with enough energy to tunnel the barrier. This is where a thinner barrier will allow the device to operate to a lower temperature, but will also lower the working voltage of each layer.

Of course, Theory is the word at this time.



Madebymonkeys

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #653 on: December 29, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »
I thought the same thing, with low voltage output and high current, there is going to be a lot of heat that in turn would produce more current.

Additional layers to increase the voltage would help solve much of the local heating but when viewed correctly, there is no real problem.

Suppose you have a low voltage quenco between two heat sinks and only a heavy copper wire shorting the circuit.
The ambient heat will provide electron flow which in turn produces heat in the wire and in the heat sink. This heat originally was consumed from the environment inside the box and serves to help cool the wire and heat sink which reduces the output. However nothing actually changed since the heat produced is indeed the same heat that was consumed.

The process in this case may trap some of the initial heat from the environment inside the box in a loop within the heat sinks and wire, but when disconnected the heat would again balance out to starting conditions.

If you had two boxes, one with the quenco and heatsink and the other with the shorting wire, then the heat form the quenco would accumulate in the other box and the quenco box would become colder until infinity, except the process would become slower and slower as it cools.

The reason is that eventually in the colder environment the random encounters between electrons will less often occur that will energize any single electron with enough energy to tunnel the barrier. This is where a thinner barrier will allow the device to operate to a lower temperature, but will also lower the working voltage of each layer.

Of course, Theory is the word at this time.

I was thinking more about the interface between the shorting wire and the quenco itself being a high (ish) resistance...and local to the quenco. What you said makes sense but I will need to digest the info a bit more!

I haven't done the math but for the cubic cm it looks like there will be many many thousands of watts dissipated from the junction - that's not ideal.

Cracking a few nm of material between two lumps of metal will become quite easy I think, once the differential between the two sides increases.

Let me digest a bit more.

lumen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #654 on: December 29, 2012, 01:32:34 AM »
I was thinking more about the interface between the shorting wire and the quenco itself being a high (ish) resistance...and local to the quenco. What you said makes sense but I will need to digest the info a bit more!

I haven't done the math but for the cubic cm it looks like there will be many many thousands of watts dissipated from the junction - that's not ideal.

Cracking a few nm of material between two lumps of metal will become quite easy I think, once the differential between the two sides increases.

Let me digest a bit more.

There is no temperature differential between the two sides. The quenco converts from an isothermal environment.

I do think because the electrons move from one side to the other that it will cause it's own differential and start to cool one side then loose efficiency.
The heat sinks from each side would need to be thermally connected and electrically isolated to maintain the same temperature on each side of the chip as close as possible.

I did some heat modeling on this and if you try to pull 5000W across 1 square centimeter area, there is a large temperature difference even in a solid copper heatsink.

Copper is just not conductive enough to supply ambient temperatures without the chip being 30F to 50F cooler even when trapped in solid copper blocks.
 If the electrical junction did induce heat, at least the chip would be running in a more efficient temperature range.
 
 
 

sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #655 on: December 29, 2012, 04:13:56 AM »
Trying to talk to Sarkeizen is like spitting in the wind.  It is best to ignore.  He is overly impressed with himself and will not listen.
Bruce....seriously?  When have you offered anything but "You must act like X around Philip" or "You are a troll and you better stop talking".  If you want people to listen to you.  You actually need to talk about something.  Just telling people how they should talk seems to get you ignored by just about everyone other than me...and now you're begging for attention from others.
Quote
I have stopped reading his posts.  Let's all just move the conversation without him, and if he responds, ignore said response. 

Because this forum is about communication and the sharing of ideas unless you don't like them then Bruce suggests you stick your fingers in your ears.   Yes, I can see how that's the grown-up thing to do.  Thanks Bruce.
Yes, you are correct! It always takes two to argue.

With that I must say : Sarkeizen my friend, all we do is argue anymore, So I'm leaving you.
 :)
Arguing is actually pretty useful.  If you could only be less vapid about it.

OK, Rewind:
Do you see any real questions in there?
Yeah because looking at a post which just references a couple of things I talked about earlier is the best way to evaluate the arguments you previously ignored...and then went on to argue about other things - like how posts are not a unit. :)

...oh and just a point of clarity.  You're essentially saying that an engineer of 30 years can't see anything even in that reference that might challenge Quenco?

Madebymonkeys

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #656 on: December 29, 2012, 09:49:38 PM »

There is no temperature differential between the two sides. The quenco converts from an isothermal environment.

I do think because the electrons move from one side to the other that it will cause it's own differential and start to cool one side then loose efficiency.
The heat sinks from each side would need to be thermally connected and electrically isolated to maintain the same temperature on each side of the chip as close as possible.

I did some heat modeling on this and if you try to pull 5000W across 1 square centimeter area, there is a large temperature difference even in a solid copper heatsink.

Copper is just not conductive enough to supply ambient temperatures without the chip being 30F to 50F cooler even when trapped in solid copper blocks.
 If the electrical junction did induce heat, at least the chip would be running in a more efficient temperature range.

Thanks for that, useful.
With the thermal modelling did you discover a point which determines the max power available given an infinitely large heatsink?
Also, is there any dissipation in the barrier and what's the temp difference on either side of the barrier - assuming the quoted figures for the 1cm^3?

Many thanks
Mbm

sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #657 on: December 30, 2012, 02:02:17 AM »
So here's a question for you MBM.  Let me know what you think...

Suppose you can prove that no algorithm can exist to accomplish something.  Do you believe that means that no device can be built to accomplish the same goal?

doublehelix

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #658 on: December 30, 2012, 02:40:01 AM »
So here's a question for you MBM.  Let me know what you think...

Suppose you can prove that no algorithm can exist to accomplish something.  Do you believe that means that no device can be built to accomplish the same goal?

I think that is the most stupid pointless question you have asked so far, and you do set an amazingly high standard in that respect.

sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #659 on: December 30, 2012, 02:58:49 AM »
I think that is the most stupid pointless question you have asked so far, and you do set an amazingly high standard in that respect.
Because there couldn't possibly be anything about this subject that you don't understand.  Right?