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Author Topic: quentron.com  (Read 961198 times)

Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2415 on: May 23, 2014, 02:23:28 PM »
I believe the only evidence that can satisfy a person who believes a violation of 2LOT to be impossible, is to have that person test an actual device.


I will post here a link where members can obtain such a device from a distributor, but it will not be before August 20th 2014 for legal reasons.


I am happy to discuss the general issue of 2LOT and Maxellian Demons on the KARPEN PILE thread.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2415 on: May 23, 2014, 02:23:28 PM »

Offline memoryman

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2416 on: May 23, 2014, 03:29:49 PM »
Philip, we exchanged many emails 2 years ago (memoryman). I am curious: have you finally got good quality working samples?

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2417 on: May 23, 2014, 03:42:59 PM »
How credible a test for a claim is rests on the strength of the evidence that the test generates in relation to the claim.  Long before an experiment is conducted, the experiment should be designed and evaluated for its ability to discern between a null result that rejects the hypothesis under test and a result that supports the hypothesis under test.  If under the conditions of a known null control the experiment yields other than the null result, then the experiment is flawed and its design must be reconsidered.  I encourage you to do all that you can to vet whatever experiments you propose buyers perform before you offer units for sale.

An example of something that would indicate a Second Law violation to me would be an experiment where a quantity of heat passively moves from a lower temperature reservoir to a higher temperature reservoir.  Let me place two reservoirs in a well insulated chamber, let those two reservoirs each start at the same temperature, communicate thermally, and show that heat does not move from one to the other for the null experiment.  Then all things equal add the second law violating mechanism to the first reservoir and observe that its heat decreases while the heat in the second reservoir increases by a like amount.  Swap out the reservoirs and repeat showing that the apparent heat movement direction is not specific to the reservoirs.  Do all that successfully well above the uncertainty of your instruments, and I think you would have strong evidence of a Second Law violation. 

My message is that the method by which you or your customers will test is in many ways more important than the how or why by which you hope to be able to violate the Second Law.  Whatever you do, make certain that you shake out your test ideas well in advance.  That way, when the day comes people interested in your claims will accept your test methods as valid.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2417 on: May 23, 2014, 03:42:59 PM »
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Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2418 on: May 23, 2014, 04:43:27 PM »
I believe the only evidence that can satisfy a person who believes a violation of 2LOT to be impossible, is to have that person test an actual device.
So isn't that an implied claim that the vast majority of people in the world, even people who have only kindergarten math.  Are capable of creating and executing a test which would have a high probability of being correct?

Has it not occurred to you that there are whole billion dollar industries which are completely and utterly FAKE which rely on precisely the same standard of evidence: "If you don't believe me, try it for yourself".
Quote
I will post here a link where members can obtain such a device from a distributor, but it will not be before August 20th 2014 for legal reasons.
I have a hard time getting through the summer without looking forward to you failing at the end of it.

Quote
I am happy to discuss the general issue of 2LOT and Maxellian Demons on the KARPEN PILE thread.
Are you saying that your quenco is NOT a Maxwell's Demon?  If it is, why wouldn't we discuss it here?

How credible a test for a claim is rests on the strength of the evidence that the test generates in relation to the claim.
Mark, if I wasn't straight I'd seriously want to make out with you right now.  Yes!! A test - any test - can only shift our confidence we have in our hypothesis.  The overall probability of our hypothesis is the conditional probability of the hypothesis and the test.  This is essentially what Bayes Theorem connotes.

Because of this people often forget that it's possible to have a weak hypothesis pass a strong test and have the result still not be credible.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2419 on: May 23, 2014, 06:28:45 PM »
I don't swing the other way either.   I appreciate the compliment.

I am very skeptical of Mr.Hardcastle's claims.  Just the same, I would be happy to help him work out solid test protocols if he wants my help.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2419 on: May 23, 2014, 06:28:45 PM »
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Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2420 on: May 23, 2014, 10:10:10 PM »
Just the same, I would be happy to help him work out solid test protocols if he wants my help.
My advice would be to make them as strict as possible.  The mathematical reason behind statements like: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" is the simple fact that given a test with a false positive rate of 1 in 1 000 000 and two hypotheses H1 (very likely to be true P(H1) = 0.8 ) and H2 (very likely to be untrue P(H2)= 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000008).

H1 has a 1 in 2 000 000 chance of getting a false positive.
H2 has approximately a 1 in 1 000 000 chance of getting a false positive.

So evidence for H2 is worth only *half* the evidence for H1.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2421 on: May 23, 2014, 10:16:50 PM »
My advice would be to make them as strict as possible.  The mathematical reason behind statements like: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" is the simple fact that given a test with a false positive rate of 1 in 1 000 000 and two hypotheses H1 (very likely to be true P(H1) = 0.8 ) and H2 (very likely to be untrue P(H2)= 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000008).

H1 has a 1 in 2 000 000 chance of getting a false positive.
H2 has approximately a 1 in 1 000 000 chance of getting a false positive.

So evidence for H2 is worth only *half* the evidence for H1.
A lot of people have trouble with the (1 - N) that frequents statistics.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2421 on: May 23, 2014, 10:16:50 PM »
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Offline Philip Hardcastle

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2422 on: May 24, 2014, 01:40:27 AM »


I think the only sensible reply to people trying to ascribe probabilities that have no actual knowledge is that of the PM Benjamin Disraeli;


"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

"it is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point."


I cannot for strict confidentiality reasons divulge anything on the topics of what is to be released in August, so I will use the British Royal position of making no comment, but with a slightly cheeky smile.

As I stated before I am happy to debate M Demons on the Karpen thread, but not here.

Thanks.

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2423 on: May 24, 2014, 03:59:52 AM »
I think the only sensible reply to people trying to ascribe probabilities that have no actual knowledge
Since we're back to not actually speaking my name...which is kind of cool it makes me feel like some kind of diety or Lovecraftian mythos.  I'll assume you're talking about me.  Every prediction I've made about your producing quenco has been correct.  Right?  Not one wrong prediction from me.  Period.  100% correct. Right? Every prediction on the same issue, by you has been wrong.  Right? 100% There is not one working quenco. 

So remind me again, which one of us has no actual knowledge?

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is that of the PM Benjamin Disraeli;
Because it's always good to get your advice on mathematics from politicians and amateurs instead of actual mathematicians.

Quote
I will use the British Royal position of making no comment, but with a slightly cheeky smile.
...to cover up your inevitable failure.  Were I giving odds that you were a charlatan, your ability to adopt the same ridiculous posturing every summer for the past what three? four? years.  Would shift the odds in favor of that conclusion.

Quote
As I stated (stupidly) before I am happy to debate M Demons on the Karpen thread (which has nothing to do with Maxwell's Demon), but not here (on a thread where I claim to have constructed a Maxwell's Demon)
For once Philip, you and I are on the same page.

Thanks.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2423 on: May 24, 2014, 03:59:52 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2424 on: May 24, 2014, 08:37:30 AM »
Mr. Hardcastle statistics can be very helpful to those who want to find the truth.  The fact that some have abused figures by misapplying them doesn't change the utility of statistics.  It merely tells us that we must carefully evaluate the logic used and actual evidence provided in support of any argument.  If you have intellectual property concerns that prevent open discussion of test protocols, then I hope you will do whatever you can to vet your proposed test protocols with qualified persons in private.

Offline murmel

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2425 on: May 25, 2014, 10:21:03 PM »
can a person who believe it, also test the device ? :-) or am i excluded for stupidity ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2425 on: May 25, 2014, 10:21:03 PM »
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Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2426 on: May 29, 2014, 05:57:39 PM »
Pointing out that the Karpen thread died out almost as soon as it started.

This seems expected as, for Philip it was all about keeping this thread for propaganda.  As opposed to discussing Quenco - which isn't allowed. I could easily go through the thread history and find all the quotes but it's kind of obvious most of his responses are of the form "shut up you have no information so you can have no opinion and I won't tell you anything".  Yawn.

As for Profitis I think he was pretty much about the trolling, assuming he isn't Philip or someone linked to him.



Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2427 on: May 29, 2014, 09:28:42 PM »
Pointing out that the Karpen thread died out almost as soon as it started.

This seems expected as, for Philip it was all about keeping this thread for propaganda.  As opposed to discussing Quenco - which isn't allowed. I could easily go through the thread history and find all the quotes but it's kind of obvious most of his responses are of the form "shut up you have no information so you can have no opinion and I won't tell you anything".  Yawn.

As for Profitis I think he was pretty much about the trolling, assuming he isn't Philip or someone linked to him.
I do not think that Profitis and Mr. Hardcastle are linked.

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2428 on: May 29, 2014, 10:28:05 PM »
I do not think that Profitis and Mr. Hardcastle are linked.
Profitis uses incredibly stupid spelling and grammar.  However it's clearly an effort on his part as when he forgets his prose snaps back to something that might pass for normal.  His errors aren't consistent either, if you didn't spend a lot of time around people who English isn't their primary language you might not realize that the errors they make are *consistent*. i.e.  People who's primary language doesn't inflect for plurals tend to depluralize etc....

So Profitis appears to be going out of his way to seem different than he is.   That doesn't make him Philip but it does seem to mean he is trying not to be recognized.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2429 on: May 29, 2014, 11:11:55 PM »
Profitis uses incredibly stupid spelling and grammar.  However it's clearly an effort on his part as when he forgets his prose snaps back to something that might pass for normal.  His errors aren't consistent either, if you didn't spend a lot of time around people who English isn't their primary language you might not realize that the errors they make are *consistent*. i.e.  People who's primary language doesn't inflect for plurals tend to depluralize etc....

So Profitis appears to be going out of his way to seem different than he is.   That doesn't make him Philip but it does seem to mean he is trying not to be recognized.
Profitis' strikes me as someone who posts mostly to see if he can get a reaction.  He doesn't seem to care very much if he plays a fool as long as it draws a response.  When he kept promising to provide references for his claims but never did, I concluded he wasn't serious.  His free floating drift into and out of literate speech seems appears to be an act of some sort.  I don't know if he does it to: obfuscate, see if people notice, or if he just finds it amusing.

OTOH, Mr. Hardcastle is usually very serious.  I think WYSIWYG with him. 

 

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