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Author Topic: quentron.com  (Read 962406 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2070 on: February 11, 2014, 07:03:16 PM »
correct @ mark E. While those ions diffuse and spread out electrical work is done and heat is absorbed from the environment to compensate the done work,like an expanding gas on a piston in a cylinder after compression.its drive to electrochemical entropy equilibrium priority number one.it obeys kelvin rule because its reversability is non spontaneous.effort is required to re-concentrate those ions but not so with the karpen system.in the karpen system electrochemical entropy balance is achieved by compression of gas when it passes from one electrode to the other and then of course reverts to original state when  switched off,back to each electrodes most stable state when non-relative to each other.a karpen cell is an gaseous electrode concentration cell,not an ionic concentration cell.the nernst equation applies to both classes of concentration cells.

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2070 on: February 11, 2014, 07:03:16 PM »

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2071 on: February 11, 2014, 07:09:17 PM »
yes demonstrate is the key word @sarkeizen i.e. to build and see
"demonstrate" is a key term, but as usual your definition is one of the most stupid ones possible. :D

To demonstrate that there is no logically-valid alternative does not require you to build a physical device.  As I demonstrated earlier, you can not observe the outcomes you require purely empirically. So building something can not make your point. QED.  Moron.

Quote
do you want me to CITE and EXPLAIN (your not an electrochemist i presume) how a concentration cell,s entropy requirements can be met without kelvin rule in the picture,yes or no.
Again, you are too ambiguous.  I've stated what is required.  You need to make a series of statements, each one must force the next.  It must start at a textbook cite and end with the statement which I've reproduced probably a hundred times by now.

Nice to see that you're trying to worm your way out of making a useful argument though.

@sarkeizen your implying that kelvin statement is necessary for all thermodynamic entropy requirements is totaly false.
Shhh I was talking about math.  When you know more than high-school math - then you're allowed to talk about it.  So far...no dice. :D

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2072 on: February 11, 2014, 07:17:36 PM »
correct @ mark E. While those ions diffuse and spread out electrical work is done and heat is absorbed from the environment to compensate the done work,like an expanding gas on a piston in a cylinder after compression.its drive to electrochemical entropy equilibrium priority number one.it obeys kelvin rule because its reversability is non spontaneous.effort is required to re-concentrate those ions but not so with the karpen system.in the karpen system electrochemical entropy balance is achieved by compression of gas when it passes from one electrode to the other and then of course reverts to original state when  switched off,back to each electrodes most stable state when non-relative to each other.
Thanks again, but it seems we may have an issue with terms.  My understanding of thermodynamic reversibility is that something is only reversible if it can go from a first state to a second state or back without external energy input, IE effort.  Do we agree on this?  If we do, it would seem to me that Nernst as it describes systems that go towards equilibrium implicitly precludes reversibility.

I see that the Karpen pile has a fair bit of controversy around it.  I think we will be diving down a big rabbit hole if we attempt discuss how something works when it is disputed whether it works as claimed in the first place.

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2072 on: February 11, 2014, 07:17:36 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2073 on: February 11, 2014, 09:02:24 PM »
@mark E a nernst potential between 2 half-cells at equal temperature tells us that its going to be a spontaneous reaction.it says nothing about irreversability or how much extra effort we,l need to reverse it,only kelvin statement tells us that stuff so we cant possibly come to conclusions on how much extra effort we,l need.we can only know the minimum effort we need to feed it to reverse it. In the case of karpen,s battery we,l have to use a battery based on the same principal but at least 10-100 times more power density to be taken seriously.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2074 on: February 11, 2014, 09:13:59 PM »
@mark E a nernst potential between 2 half-cells at equal temperature tells us that its going to be a spontaneous reaction.it says nothing about irreversability or how much extra effort we,l need to reverse it,only kelvin statement tells us that stuff so we cant possibly come to conclusions on how much extra effort we,l need.we can only know the minimum effort we need to feed it to reverse it. In the case of karpen,s battery we,l have to use a battery based on the same principal but at least 10-100 times more power density to be taken seriously.
Profitis, doesn't the Nernst equation depend on the reactants going from whatever the current state is towards an equilibrium / depleted state? 

Unless someone can point to a validation of what it is the Karpen battery supposedly does I don't think it makes a useful example of any particular process.

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2074 on: February 11, 2014, 09:13:59 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2075 on: February 11, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »
but of course @mark E.any battery voltage depletes as the system tends toward the primary driving force,electrochemical equilibrium.and so it goes with e.g. the wikipedia oxygen concentration cell.the only difference being that theres a gas pressure differential across electrodes at equilibrium in order to flatten the voltage out.this is spontaneous. I think that karpen,s own ideas about his battery fits in very well with todays catalyst gas spillover model and with concentration cell model.the evidence from higher-powered relatives supporting this in my opinion.i think it wont be long before we see practical applications at an affordable price on the shelves or integrated with electronic items.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2076 on: February 12, 2014, 02:04:10 AM »
but of course @mark E.any battery voltage depletes as the system tends toward the primary driving force,electrochemical equilibrium.and so it goes with e.g. the wikipedia oxygen concentration cell.the only difference being that theres a gas pressure differential across electrodes at equilibrium in order to flatten the voltage out.this is spontaneous. I think that karpen,s own ideas about his battery fits in very well with todays catalyst gas spillover model and with concentration cell model.the evidence from higher-powered relatives supporting this in my opinion.i think it wont be long before we see practical applications at an affordable price on the shelves or integrated with electronic items.
Profitis, since we seem to agree that the Nernst equation describes systems that drive towards equilibrium, I am at a loss as to why you state that the Nernst equation is not premised on irreversibility.  If we take your example of a concentration cell, my understanding of the Nernst equation is that it predicts the voltage of the cell as that cell goes from a starting state of two disparate concentrations with a resulting measurable voltage potential and energy capacity to an equilibrium concentration with no voltage difference and no remaining energy capacity.  I don't know of any means to get such a cell to start building up disparity in the concentrations that does not require outside work.  So, it changes from the disparate concentration state to the equilibrium state by itself but will not go the other way without external work. 

By the definitions I am familiar with: whenever outside work is required to drive between two states in one direction, but not in another, the process is not thermodynamically reversible.  Do you know of an electrochemical reaction where there are two distinct states that have no difference in energy?  My understanding is that the no difference in energy is required for thermodynamic irreversibility.

I have not located any verification of Karpen's claims for his cell's performance.  Nor have I found successful replications.  Being unable to determine if a particular thing has happened makes it difficult for me to research what might be responsible for that speculative behavior.

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2076 on: February 12, 2014, 02:04:10 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2077 on: February 12, 2014, 08:23:33 PM »
@mark E its easier for me to explain with the diagram below which depicts a hydrogen electrode concentration cell,s energy  cycle diagram before discharge (A) and after discharge (B).the electrochemical entropy requirement trumping both temperature and pressure entropy requirements toward equilibrium between two inert electrodes of differing work functions under hydrogen beginning at equal pressure(they can even be the same metal).heat is absorbed from the environment at one electrode and spat out at the other when going from A to B toward equilibrium(switched on) then heat is spat out to the environment at one electrode and absorbed at the other when going from B to A(switched off)both directions are spontaneous.one direction toward electrochemical entropy(on) and the other direction toward gaseous decompression entropy(off). You have to replicate one of the higher powered hydrogen concentration cells suggested here in order to study it appropriately.pH2= hydrogen pressure difference and Ep= electrode potential difference

Offline sarkeizen

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2078 on: February 12, 2014, 09:41:09 PM »
@mark E its easier for me to explain with the diagram of a pair of pants.  See the entro-pant-ry between the hem length...
Yawn...No formal argument I see.  No surprise. :D

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2078 on: February 12, 2014, 09:41:09 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2079 on: February 12, 2014, 09:46:30 PM »
@mark E its easier for me to explain with the diagram below which depicts a hydrogen electrode concentration cell,s energy  cycle diagram before discharge (A) and after discharge (B).the electrochemical entropy requirement trumping both temperature and pressure entropy requirements toward equilibrium between two inert electrodes of differing work functions under hydrogen beginning at equal pressure(they can even be the same metal).heat is absorbed from the environment at one electrode and spat out at the other when going from A to B toward equilibrium(switched on) then heat is spat out to the environment at one electrode and absorbed at the other when going from B to A(switched off)both directions are spontaneous.one direction toward electrochemical entropy(on) and the other direction toward gaseous decompression entropy(off). You have to replicate one of the higher powered hydrogen concentration cells suggested here in order to study it appropriately.pH2= hydrogen pressure difference and Ep= electrode potential difference
Profitis are you telling me that without consumption of external energy one of these cells will recharge itself?  Are you telling me that it is the luck of the draw that one of these cells discharges towards equilibrium versus moves towards 100% concentration in one cell half and 0% concentration in the other?

Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2080 on: February 12, 2014, 10:32:32 PM »
lol no @mark E.im telling you that it sucks in heat from a single thermal reservoir against resistance in order to attain electrochemical entropy,the only way which is to squeeze,squash,compress,saturate gas from one electrode onto the other.spontaneously.otherwise why do we measure a nernst potential in e.g. a wikipedia oxygen concentration cell in direct proportion to oxygen gas exposure differences between electrodes? Where does that potential for work come from?thin air? I dont think so.the first law of thermodynamics forbids work from nothing and i agree with it.the 2nd law forbids work from something and i dont always agree with it.   

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2080 on: February 12, 2014, 10:32:32 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2081 on: February 13, 2014, 04:43:15 AM »
Profitis, so that's no on recharging without external energy?  And it is also no on going away from equilibrium without external energy?

Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2082 on: February 13, 2014, 06:07:09 AM »
no @mark E.thats no on you and me requiring to put in energy.not no on the universe requiring to donate energy, from a single thermal reservoir.

Offline MarkE

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2083 on: February 13, 2014, 07:10:50 AM »
no @mark E.thats no on you and me requiring to put in energy.not no on the universe requiring to donate energy, from a single thermal reservoir.
Profitis, the original pair of questions are each a yes or no.  If you want to add explanatory detail, that's always good.

The first question was:

Quote
Profitis are you telling me that without consumption of external energy one of these cells will recharge itself? 

I interpret that you are saying that the answer to this is no.  I interpret that you say it is no because of the First Law of Energy. 

The second question was:

Quote
Are you telling me that it is the luck of the draw that one of these cells discharges towards equilibrium versus moves towards 100% concentration in one cell half and 0% concentration in the other?

I haven't found anything in your responses that appears to address this second question.  If I missed a response somewhere, then I apologize and ask that you clarify with a yes or no.  Of course I welcome any expansion you may wish to offer beyond the yes or no.

Offline profitis

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Re: quentron.com
« Reply #2084 on: February 13, 2014, 02:38:21 PM »
 @mark E. 1)no work is needed to recharge it.an expanding gas will suck in heat from the universe as it cools.the battery sucks in heat while the expanding gas(compressed during discharge half of cycle)  recharges it. 2) no its not luck.its a vey precise switching between 2 directions of entropy going on in the battery: discharge= electrochemical entropy dominates.recharge=gaseous expansion/diffusion entropy dominates.2 seperate entropy needs in one system,only one need dominating at a time,depending wether the battery is switched on or off and depending on how much resistance is between its terminals in the external circuitry that we need to work(grey areas inbetween totaly on and totaly off,ohms)does this answer give more clarity for your 2 questions @mark E?

 

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