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Author Topic: Testing the TK Tar Baby  (Read 1998477 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #285 on: April 11, 2012, 09:03:25 PM »
Hey TK!

Very nice workmanship.   That could be a useful tool in general, just try not to over-current it.  It should be able to resolve ambiguities in the net current flow direction for some circuits.  You know how those wonderful DSOs are only as good as your skill set with respect to making proper measurements.

I suggest you do a preliminary current reading with a multimeter first.  Always do a visual check and feel for excessive heat between thumb-forefinger.  You probably have a good 1 1/2 seconds before a catastrophic failure.

High heat mode would spell DOOM for the LEDs of DOOM.

The logic is that if you have say a 48-volt power supply, the LEDs of DOOM are only "stealing" about one volt (?) from the supply source.  (I forget the voltage drop across a vanilla LED.)  So in theory you are not going to disturb the device under test too much.

So the big question is we saw the GREEN LEDs light up when connected to the Tar Baby.  Were they LEDs of Salvation or were they LEDs of DOOM?

MileHigh

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #286 on: April 12, 2012, 01:22:33 AM »
Well... it is the Cathode side of the Green LEDs that is connected to the negative battery pole.
 ;D

MileHigh

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #287 on: April 12, 2012, 01:38:21 AM »
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeek!

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #288 on: April 12, 2012, 01:44:22 AM »
Meanwhile..... back at the DeepBunker..... I finally got a round two it, so I hooked up the Tar Baby to the Clarke-Hess 2330 Power Analyzer aka Sampling V-A-W meter.

It is true that this instrument says that it is supposed to be accurate below 600 kHz, so it might be missing some of the action in the high frequency oscillations. But there it is, for what it's worth.

I used 4 x 12 V batteries, and set the Tar Baby's 555 driver to make the highest amplitude stable oscillations, which usually causes my inline cheapo DMM to indicate 200-210 mA.

Figure 1: Clarke-Hess 2330 readings: Input power to circuit.
Battery >>> CH2330 >>>> Tar Baby >>> water heater element load

Figure 2: CH2330 readings: Output power to load
Battery >>> Tar Baby >>>> CH2330 >>> water heater element load

Figure 3: Waveform during CH2330 testing. Note the 60Hz ripple envelope on the overall waveform. The CH needs shielded input leads, I guess. Top trace is pin 3 output from 555 timer @ 10 v/div, bottom is common drains @ 20 V/div. The channel zeros are on the nearest graticle line to the grey dots on the bezel.

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #289 on: April 12, 2012, 01:54:18 AM »
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeek!
For most LEDs the cathode is the little cup-like structure inside, and the anode comes over the top and contacts whatever is in the cup with a little wire. I always remember it as "cup==cathode" and usually you can see this inside the LED.  And I just confirmed it with my bench power supply: when the negative lead from the supply is hooked to the cup-cathode side of the green LEDs, and the positive lead to the anode side,  they light up and the red ones don't.

So what are the implications of this, especially considering two things:
First, there is the AC oscillation and it is possible to extract power from it...
and
Second.... Rosemary now says that she has never claimed that the batteries are _recharging_, just that they aren't _discharging_. And you know what happens next: the current comes out of one end of the battery, and a current goes into the other end of the battery, right? So they are equal and opposite and the battery remains charged. The LEDs prove nothing because they do just what's expected: they indicate the flow out of one end of the battery (or in the other end.)

I think the oscillations are affecting my brain or something.

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #290 on: April 12, 2012, 02:10:05 AM »
So.... The C-H appears to be confirming what I have thought since these several days. It appears that in the "q2 oscillation mode" using a negative going gate drive pulse from the 555 timer, and the water heater element load of 10.3 Ohms and 75 microHenry inductance, at 48 V nominal input voltage.... the Q2 mosfets and the rest of the circuit are actually dissipating quite a bit more power than is getting to the load itself.

The mosfets get warm. I think I just might have to do this: I'll suspend the q2 stack in 250 mL mineral oil, insulated like the load is, and run the thing and see which jug of oil gets warmer faster !

How I would like to see some real test reports from the NERD device.

This is unique in the history of "open source" projects, I think. The "inventor" and claimant is being totally uncooperative in performing requested tests and in releasing clear and unambiguous information. Meanwhile... back at the ranch... the evil rival debunker Grand Inquisitor replicator is building who-knows-what and just might beat the NERD RATs to the vaunted OverUntied Prize.

If he can just figure out what those squiggly lines really REALLY mean, that is. Everybody knows that you can't use analog scopes for anything.

Oh never mind.

MileHigh

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #291 on: April 12, 2012, 03:20:30 AM »
TK:

Yes indeedy in negative oscillation mode more power is dissipated in the MOSFETs themselves.  Bandwidth issues notwithstanding it looks like the C-H is in the ballpark.

The key thing to think about is voltage drop.  Whomever is "gobbling up most of the voltage drop" is the guy that dissipates most of the power.  So if you put your multimeter across the inductive resistor you might get a decent average DC voltage measurement across that component.  Again, having no direct experience and it being so long, I am not 100% sure.  Poynt has some wonderful clips on YouTube that show how the dual-slope integration hardware for getting an average DC voltage measurement works amazingly.  I am just not sure if it extends out into the megahertz range.  Of course you could put a simple low pass filter between your multimeter and the inductive resistor that doesn't disturb the oscillations.

So if you have a 48-volt voltage source and you notice that your 11-ohm load resistor is only responsible for about 7 or 8 volts of that voltage drop, then you know that your MOSFETs are dissipating the bulk of the supplied power.  I suspect that this simple logic could have eluded the RATs.  Hence this might be another surprise for Team Rosie Posie - that the magic negative oscillation mode that generates an alleged "COP infinity" actually results in more battery power being dissipated in the MOSFETs than the load resistor.

MileHigh

P.S.:  The reason I have no "direct experience" is that I never had a logical reason to make some of these krazy-kooky measurements in the real world working on a real bench working on a real project.

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #292 on: April 12, 2012, 04:16:34 AM »
@MH...yep, I concur. They had no idea what was happening in their circuit.... but at some point they realised that the mosfets needed heatsinks.... it's just too bad that they didn't compare the heating of the mosfets with the heating of the load... properly.
In the oscillation mode the thing works like a disabled PWM controller; the mosfets are partially on, I guess. The thing makes a pretty good motor driver (no oscillations) when you just hook a small DC motor where the load goes. Control motor by input voltage applied to the 555. Very inefficient.

Well, I have six batteries now, and all IRFPG50s as the transistors (although I see that as a waste of money). I'm making waveforms and heating the loads, both the parallel ceramic resistors and the stock water heater element, with oscillations. I have phase relations. (Don't tell my neighbors, please.) I have the LEDs of Doom, Deluxe Edition. I have every damn thing _except_ perpetually charged-up batteries.

Could it be that the NERDs are deploying anti-replication technology against me? Yes.. that must be it, otherwise my exact duplicate of their circuit, except for the batteries, must work in COP INFINITY mode.

Or could there be another reason? Stay tuned for the next episode in the continuing saga of TarBaby vs. the NERDs from Bizarro Universe.

fuzzytomcat

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #293 on: April 12, 2012, 05:08:41 AM »
Hi TK,

I was curious on the Clarke-Hess 2330 Power Analyzer that your using and found a PDF file ( 2330.pdf ) on it's operating specifications what a nice unit !!  The one thing that really surprised me was the 30 minute warm up time for full accuracy ... like a older analog scope or maybe even a little longer.  ???

Fuzzy
 ;)

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #294 on: April 12, 2012, 05:47:37 AM »
Yeah, long warmup times are pretty standard in the test equipment field, even with today's digital equipment.
Some of that stuff like precision counters even has a little oven in it to keep its crystal oscillator at an even temperature as long as it's plugged in.

hartiberlin

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #295 on: April 13, 2012, 12:49:33 AM »
Okay,
Rosemary aggreed to do new tests on her circuit with the 555 timer being powered by the same battery pack
and will also do a battery charge status test.

I will leave this thread open but this should only be used to explain the
effects with this or simular circuits, but not to be used for name calling or flame wars...

So please be more polite and just concentrate on the technical side of things please.
Many thanks.



Regards, Stefan.

TinselKoala

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #296 on: April 13, 2012, 01:58:56 AM »
I certainly hope you have the same requirement for Rosemary. And of course she should not be permitted to lie, to make incorrect calculations without retractions or corrections, nor should she be allowed to post incorrect information over and over and over without correction.  I don't think anyone has been as insulted around here as I have been by Rosemary Ainslie. When you add in the lies and distortions she's posted about my work.... one really has trouble understanding why she is allowed to post at all.

Stefan, she's not going to be testing anything-- and if she does, it's not going to be done properly.  She's been doing this same thing for at least ten years... you are simply the latest victim. Do you really think she'll change her M.O. at this point? I sure don't. Or should I say beneficiary... since you make money from traffic on your site. She certainly brings in the traffic !!

So... do you think there is some significant feature or hidden variable that is preventing Tar Baby from being an accurate "replication"of Ainslie's device? Tar Baby is ready for testing now, and in fact has already been tested to see if its batteries run down. How is Tar Baby significantly different from Ainslie's device? Other than actually being available for actual testing, that is. I have even offered to send Tar Baby to any independent tester that Rosemary might appoint, to be tested side-by-side with the NERD device using the same tests and analyses for both. My claim is that Tar Baby and NERD will perform just the same in all significant respects. If a calculation shows NERD is OU, then I claim that same calculation and measurement will show that Tar Baby is OU as well.

And since I will have demonstrated it first...... well, I'm quite sure you can "do the math" as Ainslie says.

Magluvin

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #297 on: April 13, 2012, 03:01:26 AM »
What does Tar Baby mean exactly? How does it describe or relate to the circuit or Rosemary?

Mags

MileHigh

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #298 on: April 13, 2012, 03:42:08 AM »
Well bring it on!  lol

TK, you did probably the best battery analysis test that I have ever seen on the forums!  You compared freshly charged batteries of the same age (if I recall you just purchased them) with batteries that had been driving the Tar Baby load.  Of course I am referring to the famous dim light bulb test.  (Now everybody's heard about a NERD, NERD NERD NERD.....)

I have cranked out reams and reams of text about how to properly test batteries to see if simple pulse motors do any magic "battery resonance" effects and not a single person has ever even acknowledged the logic and thought put behind the proposed test procedures.

So, we know that any battery testing has to be based on some way of gauging, or relating to, the ENERGY stored in the batteries.  Any talk of battery voltage as far as I am personally concerned should be dismissed outright as invalid data.  When I think of the fact that there are people out there that make their living off of essentially deceiving people about battery voltage it kind of infuriates me.

MileHigh

hoptoad

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Re: Testing the TK Tar Baby
« Reply #299 on: April 13, 2012, 04:08:36 AM »
snip...

TK, you did probably the best battery analysis test that I have ever seen on the forums!

snip..

Indeed, TK, I commend you for your thorough analysis of the entire RA circuit equivalent - your tar baby. In fact, I think the tar baby has been so openly exposed and well explained by you, that it's now probably time for your naked tar baby to be covered up with some nice warm feathers. It's earned a good dressing.

Cheers. Good work, well explained.

KneeDeep from Hoptoads