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Author Topic: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity  (Read 87007 times)

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2012, 07:12:22 AM »
Hi folks, Hi moro, thanks for sharing the link and information.
I have been pondering this device for some time now, thinking up a simple way to extract work from it and you've shown a nice idea.
The most recent idea i had, was to use a free wheel sprocket form 10 speed and have the end of that lever you show, interact with the sprocket and turn the wheel, with the bicycle wheel either having magnets attached or a generator touching outside of tire or a chain going from sprocket to a sprocket on a generator.
I know matthew jones built what he calls the 'bouncer' and it uses the same principles of a full rotating pendulum.
peace love light
tyson :)

Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2012, 11:54:38 PM »
You guys might like this idea too...


Offline AlanA

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
@ moro
I like your demonstration videos more. An animation is not real.
Since some weeks I am thinking how it is possible to generate power. The big advantage of your invention is that there is nothing which stops the ratation of the bike. The construction makes an up and down movement. Why not using a linear motor?

Offline johnny874

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2012, 09:37:04 PM »
 here is a test I'll be doing, it's to conserve momentum.
 With a round cog, the distance from the fulcrum to the weight becomes longer as the weight swings upward.
 For every inch of radius, the retraction is 9/16th's of an inch. To figure the max retraction, add  the radius
to the radius times .57. That number will ned to be less than the radius the weight is traveling in the wheel.
 An example is, with a 10 inch radius, a 6 inch radiused cog has 3.42 inches of retraction for a total or 9.42 inches.
 This means that by the time the weight is level with the axle, it would be almost 3 1/2 inches closer.

Offline norman6538

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Re: Centripetal Force measurements
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2012, 03:03:14 PM »
It seems to me an excellent way to measure the forces is to cascade the lifting
to a second or third bicycle turning its wheel and see what it then lifts...
Cascading to two would be clear OU proof to me.
I'll try that when I can get to it but family and Christmas activities will have first priority.


Offline Magnethos

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2012, 11:49:24 PM »
Well, at the moment I'm waiting to buy new hardware for my computer to install a CAD program to desing some pieces for an energy device I want to replicate.

Of course, I think all energy devices need to work in some moment implementing implosion because if you want add excess energy to the system it's impossible to do using explosion. If you want to add you need to introduce not to expulse. That is 100% basic and critical to understand.

Offline norman6538

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2012, 03:33:44 AM »
I have a physion simulation file that takes off and runs and runs. Dwon load it
and run it. It yaws back and forth till about 100 seconds and then takes off clockwise.
Any ideas what its doing? It was designed to  be a bicycle wheel off balanced on a board like the MoRo bike and a weight on the other end....It does have a certain speedup and slowdown
cycle to it.
The file is a .scene file but I had to add .zip to get it to upload so download it and then
remove the .zip and it should work.

You will need to remove the second green pivot point for the circle before you run it.

It really puzzles me.
I think I see why it takes off and spins. It is the motor enabled for the circle's pivot point
because when I turn that off it does not spin after 100 seconds. Sorry but it is interesting
to play with.  One would have to measure the force to rotate the circle with the force that

« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 01:16:53 PM by norman6538 »

Offline norman6538

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2013, 02:57:48 AM »
Here is a better physion bike wheel to play with. You can change the motor speed of
the wheel pivot point and
make it kick in centripital force and you can change the mass of the wheel and
the weight so that is will and will not work.
Remember the file is not a zip file. You have to remove the dot zip and
physion will then see the .scene file.

If someone has a better simulation program that has work/forces in it we can
nail this thing real soon otherwise I have to make and vary things to test them
out. I have a few ideas of how to do that but it would be so much faster with a
good simulator...

Physion is easy to use and taught me some of the basic principles that I thought
would be a factor.

have fun,

Offline norman6538

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2013, 04:33:46 PM »
Here are the numbers in my latest simulation..

The leverage on the arm varies as the wheel rotates
because the weight shifts left and right.

to the left the max leverage would be 9:16 = .5625
and to the right 5:16 = .3125 min leverage 

So if the weights were equal the leverage alone would not lift
the weight on the right and with very little rotation or none
the weight does not lift....

But the density/weight ratio is wheel= 5 and weight= 10 which makes
it even doubly worse....
 so the combined disadvantage would be .5625*.5 = .28125  = 3.55
so dispite a 3.55 mechanical/weight disadvantage it lifts the weight which means
the weight on the left has to become 3.55 times heavier than it really is...

So there is no mathematical way for the wheel on the left to lift the
weight on the right with both a leverage and weight disadvantage BUT IT DOES.

But when adequate rotation is used the weight goes up and down...
How can that be?  Where does the extra work come from?

Think about a rotating bicycle wheel with a 1 lb weight on it. That wheel
would drop from noon to at least 9 oclock by itself so all that is
needed for rotation is to lift that 1 lb back up to noon...
which would be about 1.5 ft lbs at suppose that
then lifts even 5 ft lbs? ie 20 lbs 3 inches....there is overunity
right there.....
But remember it does have to have a minimum rpms to do this.
Does that require more then 1.5 ft lbs.  to get the min rpms ???


P.S. remember that this is not a zip file but a .scene file and the .zip has to be removed
by renaming the file after downloading.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:33:28 AM by norman6538 »

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2013, 02:40:04 AM »
Ummmm... for all those who believe that gravity is a pushing force please explain the tidal bulge in the oceans as the moon is dead over center of that bulge. this is clearly an attraction.

Offline norman6538

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2013, 01:36:34 AM »
This group seems dead. I have something to post if anyone is there to read it.


Offline tim123

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2013, 05:21:50 PM »
Hi Folks,
  I think it's very likely that centrifugal force is an avenue to OU. I've done some research & calcs.

These are Industrial Vibration Motors, designed to provide large centrifugal forces. They're used in vibration testing, moving stuff around, lots of uses:

For example, model code V2017 from the above pdf:
 - 3000 PM (50 RPS) @ 50Hz
 - Centrifugal Force: 520Kg
 - Power Rating: 430Watts

The attached diagram (sorry it's badly drawn), shows two of the above motors, facing each other - to give a purely up & down motion. They're mounted on a base plate, which is attached to springs suspending it from something - not shown. Below the base is a big magnet, and a coil. As the motors rotate the magnet goes in and out of the coil - generating electricity.

 - The input power is 2 x 430 Watts - i.e. 860 Watts.
 - The output force is 1040Kg max.

The coil, under load, reacts against the magnet producing an opposing field - as per Faraday's law. This means you have to push the magnet hard into the coil. The force required can be (roughly) calculated from the simple solenoid equation:
  Force in Newtons = AmpTurns * CoreFaceArea / CoilLength

I've done some rough calcs for a generator coil - aiming to produce over 10,000 Watts from this arrangement - and this is what I came up with. It is totally impractical - as the current would burn out the wire on the first swing, (it'd need to be broken up into many smaller coils) but I think it's true to say that it's a fair indication of how much power you could get out - for how much force in:

 - Coil Length: 50mm
 - Inside Diam: 75mm
 - 1650 Turns of 2mm copper
 - 4.8 Ohms DC resistance

Moving a 1 Tesla permanent magnet in and out (i.e. 50mm movement), at 50 cycles per second, gives the following values, by Faraday's law:
 - 364 Volts
 - 75 Amps
 - 27,000 Watts

The max force required, by the solenoid equation above, is 560Kg. About half of what our two motors can produce.

So, by these figures, this setup would have a COP of about 30. A more practical arrangement might be to connect the sprung motors / baseplate directly to a standard generator via a crank... Also, the spring tension would really need to be tuned to the running frequency. Maybe springs aren't even necessary...

Calculating output power a slightly more standard / obvious way:

If we assume an average force of 500Kg from the 2 motors, and a crank of 25mm, the Torque is:
 500 * GRAVITY * 0.025
= 122 Newton / Meter

 Power at 50 Hz = TORQUE * TWOPI * 50
= 38,000 Watts

The big assumption here is that the motor can provide 50mm of movement. I'm guessing that 50mm is at the outside range of what it might do at 50Hz - and it'd depend on how it was attached I guess. Maybe the springs (tuned for resonance), would give us any extra throw required.

Maybe - to make it really easy - you could just mount the motor(s) on the crank itself? If the motor was attached so it stayed horizontal, I think the forces on the crank would be the same as if it was connected via a con-rod. But I'm not sure... Also - the rotary motion of the eccentrics in the motors is exactly the same as the crank - so the power transfer should be close to 100%?

Update: Here's a design which I think should work. Attached below. The eccentric motor is mounted on a plate, attached to a connecting rod - connected to the generator crank. The con-rod can move up & down & side to side - and it transmits the power from the eccentric to the crank.

Note - I drew the eccentric mass in the wrong position - it should be down in that position. The eccentric leads the crank by 90 degrees - thus providing force tangentially to the crank - which is just what you want to maximise power transfer.

It's more fun than watching telly. :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 08:05:32 PM by tim123 »

Offline Kator01

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2013, 12:11:59 AM »

when I follow this discussion it remembers me of Alan Cresswells ( England) work,  ending 2011. Unfortunately his website is abandoned but still can be found here:

Pay attention to the similarity of the planetary drive of Alan and TechnoKontrols device here:

and than the work of pequaide which ended in 2009. I had long participated in the discussion of his setup:

Study of these two threads might help to aquire additional viewpoints.



Offline tim123

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2013, 04:36:41 PM »
Hi Kator,
  I'd not seen Alan Cresswell's stuff before. I tried to replicate his 'PERPETUALLY RESONANT DAMPED AND FORCED SPRING' today, using meccano, springs and string - but could not get it to oscillate for more than a few seconds. I can't see how it would be OU TBH, but thought it worth a go... It's not a centrifugal device though, and that's where the interest lies.

His water-turbine - similar to Shauberger's Trout Turbine, or the CEACU has some interesting features, but none of it's well explained. I can't, for example, see how the 'stationary impact vanes' would increase the reaction force from the wheel... Shauberger had vanes, but they were designed to direct the water back at the wheel, ahead of the nozzle - thus pushing it forward - I believe.

I can't understand how his 'STEEL INERTIA QUANTUM DRIVE' is designed to work at all. :(

Pequaide's work is interesting, I had a read. I am a bit confused about kinetic energy TBH... Wikipedia says this:

"Since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed, an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy. For example, a car traveling twice as fast as another requires four times as much distance to stop, assuming a constant braking force. As a consequence of this quadrupling, it takes four times the work to double the speed."

...and here's my confusion. What Wiki says above isn't true: "it takes four times the work to double the speed".

Ignoring friction, it takes twice the work to double the speed.

 - If I provide a force of 1 Newton, on a 1Kg mass - it gives it an acceleration of 1 m/s
 - If that force is applied for 1 second - the mass's velocity is 1 m/s
 - To double the speed to 2 m/s, we have to apply the force for 1 more second. Not three.

Is Wikipedia just trying to pull the old Jedi mind-trick here? Or am I missing the point?

I guess that is the basis of Pequaide's work - that there is an anomaly there - and trying the extract that extra. It's difficult to imagine how to do it so the motor keeps spinning - unless you're using an eccentric mass - and harvesting the centrifugal force

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2013, 06:47:49 PM »
You are missing the point.  Work is force times displacement.  Think about it.