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Author Topic: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity  (Read 71820 times)

Offline MoRo

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 04:54:27 AM »
Congratulations!
You've discovered that the energy in your breakfast can be stored in a flywheel and an oscillating weight, like  vertical pendulum. The major loss mechanism is the noise when the weight bangs against the ground--- but it's easy to resupply that by giving the crank another turn or two.
You probably think that the "overunity" is because the toolbox is being raised up over and over, and that's really hard if you do it by hand. But what you are not considering, apparently, is that your mechanism, through the magnetic coupling, is re-using the same energy over and over, transferring it from the box to the wheel and back and forth. If you had a stroboscope, you'd be able to tell that the wheel slows a bit when the box is raised and speeds up as the box falls.
I'm not sure where centripetal force enters into this. At least you didn't say "centrifugal". That would have really worried me.


Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 09:28:25 PM »
Congratulations!
You've discovered that the energy in your breakfast can be stored in a flywheel and an oscillating weight, like  vertical pendulum. The major loss mechanism is the noise when the weight bangs against the ground--- but it's easy to resupply that by giving the crank another turn or two.
You probably think that the "overunity" is because the toolbox is being raised up over and over, and that's really hard if you do it by hand. But what you are not considering, apparently, is that your mechanism, through the magnetic coupling, is re-using the same energy over and over, transferring it from the box to the wheel and back and forth. If you had a stroboscope, you'd be able to tell that the wheel slows a bit when the box is raised and speeds up as the box falls.
I'm not sure where centripetal force enters into this. At least you didn't say "centrifugal". That would have really worried me.

 First, let me thank you for the congratulations...

 
Now, let me handle the sarcasm...

 
You are correct! I didn’t say “centrifugal”... As there is no such thing as “centrifugal force”.

 
The word “centrifugal” is an adjective that only applies to those centrifugal masses experiencing centripetal (center pushing) forces. Since you stated that you don’t understand how centripetal force comes into play in this “discovery”, let me explain that:

 
My breakfast supplies energy to my hand. That energy ultimately accelerates the sockets taped to the rim of the bicycle to the desired speed. However, in harmony with Newtonian law, once they are moving at the desired speed, they want to stay at that speed. So, very little energy is required to maintain the desired speed. The sockets want to go in a strait trajectory but the tape holding them to the rim supplies centripetal force, constantly pushing them towards center to hold them in orbit. And while I'm on the subject of centripetal forces, let me also explain that there is no such thing in the universe as a force that emits a pulling force but only forces translating into a push thereby causing acceleration. Even gravity, magnetism and atomic-level week and strong forces, are ultimately pushing forces. The Earth and Moon are PUSHED by gravity towards the center of Earth-Moon mass thus they orbit each other. Since gravitational acceleration is a constant, then if the Moon were moving faster, it would leave Earth orbit, if slower it would spiral into the Earth. The tape however provides sufficient centripetal strength to overcome a great deal of centrifugal activity by the weighty sockets.

 
Every time I double the speed of the orbital cycle of the sockets, then the required centripetal pushing force is quadrupled.

 
The Earth is a much heavier mass than the Moon, yet the earth does not stay in the center.

 
Likewise the toolbox and bicycle, though much heavier than the sockets, want to counter orbit the sockets. The movement of this counter orbital pattern is restricted to a bidirectional linier motion.

 
After the initial build up, the energy required to maintain the orbital time of the sockets is far less than that required to move the mass of the bicycle and toolbox in there amplitude over the same period of time.

 
The mass of the bicycle and toolbox can be replaced by a generator, pump or frictional device.

 
A device based on centripetal force would also be suitable for energy production in a low gravity environment.
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 09:28:25 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 11:50:09 PM »
Good answer, and almost correct.
The part about pushing forces.... that's not correct, though. I know there are theories of pushing gravity, and I kind of like those, and since gravity isn't fully understood I'm not going to criticise theories of pushing gravity. But other forces, like electrostatics, electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces-- those can be attractive, definitely, as well as being repulsive. I don't think this is a matter of reference frame, either.

But that's neither here nor there. It appears that you really are serious... or my own filters need adjustment. Can you implement your idea in a simulator, like Phun perhaps? Or even a more sophisticated one, if you have access to it.
A model of some kind where forces could be measured would allow a better analysis of the situation. Meanwhile, if the system indeed "Yealds Over Unity" rather than being a simple (or complicated) flywheel energy storage system.... just how much overunity do you think it is? I ask because I know some very efficient ways of converting reciprocating motion (the toolbox up and down) into rotary motion (to drive the bicycle wheel). In fact, I estimate that if your system has a "COP" of as little as 1.2, the loop could be closed with a simple piston-crankshaft-pulley arrangement to make a solid self runner. If you have a "COP" of 2 in your system, there would be plenty left over to run a small generator and power a load, as well as being a self-runner.

Why don't you spend some time with the simulator, and also try to make the system out of something other than random junk in your garage--- then we can work on estimating its true efficiency and try to decide whether it's worth attempting to make it run itself.

Or you can continue with your advanced kinematics theories and stick with the bike wheel and toolbox... but I really don't think that's going to get anywhere useful.

Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 12:26:49 AM »
Good answer, and almost correct.
The part about pushing forces.... that's not correct, though. I know there are theories of pushing gravity, and I kind of like those, and since gravity isn't fully understood I'm not going to criticise theories of pushing gravity. But other forces, like electrostatics, electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces-- those can be attractive, definitely, as well as being repulsive. I don't think this is a matter of reference frame, either.

But that's neither here nor there. It appears that you really are serious... or my own filters need adjustment. Can you implement your idea in a simulator, like Phun perhaps? Or even a more sophisticated one, if you have access to it.
A model of some kind where forces could be measured would allow a better analysis of the situation. Meanwhile, if the system indeed "Yealds Over Unity" rather than being a simple (or complicated) flywheel energy storage system.... just how much overunity do you think it is? I ask because I know some very efficient ways of converting reciprocating motion (the toolbox up and down) into rotary motion (to drive the bicycle wheel). In fact, I estimate that if your system has a "COP" of as little as 1.2, the loop could be closed with a simple piston-crankshaft-pulley arrangement to make a solid self runner. If you have a "COP" of 2 in your system, there would be plenty left over to run a small generator and power a load, as well as being a self-runner.

Why don't you spend some time with the simulator, and also try to make the system out of something other than random junk in your garage--- then we can work on estimating its true efficiency and try to decide whether it's worth attempting to make it run itself.

Or you can continue with your advanced kinematics theories and stick with the bike wheel and toolbox... but I really don't think that's going to get anywhere useful.

OK. Here you go:

http://youtu.be/B5RvlSIqIwY

 Also, on the subject of pushing forces, as for gravity, it has obviously been represented in many illustrations as a warping of the space time field. So, for the purpose of illustrations... if you can imagine dropping a ball into a pool of water such that it is floating, and then open a drain... Officially, the ball is NOT being PULLED towards the drain... It is being PUSHED by the water molecules behind it as they flow...

 
Likewise all mass acts as a sort of a drain for time and time pushes on objects close to large clumps of mass as it flows towards mass center. Time is actually flowing towards the center of the Earth, causing a constant push on your atoms to hold you down.
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 12:26:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 06:32:34 AM »
Good for you ! Phun is still phun, after all. I've been able to get it to do a perpetual gravity-spring wheel that rotates along stretching a spring and then being pulled back around by it, that keeps on turning and turning and turning.....

It might be the only physics simulator that actually allows you to violate CofM and 2LoT.  It's just a damn shame that Nature doesn't cooperate in the same manner.

Now, instead of sliding weights around, couple that linear motion into a crankshaft and pulley arrangement and feed it back to your prime mover. You should do this in your garage with your bicycle. You could do it with plywood and PVC pipe and maybe an actual pulley or two from an old washing machine.

If time doesn't wash you down the drain towards the center of the planet, that is.

Offline AlanA

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 06:43:54 PM »
Hi MoRo,

haven't known that you are here also ;-)
Maybe you have seen that I start a thread with about your idea (http://www.overunity.com/12194/centrifugal-force-is-it-ou/msg317221/#new).

Do you have a calculation or a measurement about the input force and the output force? That would help in this discussion.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 06:43:54 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 12:33:38 PM »
Hi MoRo,

haven't known that you are here also ;-)
Maybe you have seen that I start a thread with about your idea (http://www.overunity.com/12194/centrifugal-force-is-it-ou/msg317221/#new).

Do you have a calculation or a measurement about the input force and the output force? That would help in this discussion.
Hey, just wait a minute ;)
Input FORCE and output FORCE?
You need to calculate the ENERGY in Joules. If the toolbox weights 50N and lifted 5cm each revolution, the energy applied to the box is 2.5Joule in average pr. revolution. Bearly noticable for a flywheel like that.
You see, then the flywheel starts to jump up and down as well, this movement will steal kinetic energy from the rotation. Because the inertia of the tool box will delay the jump so the weight on the wheel loose kinetic energy for each jump.


Vidar

Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 05:53:21 PM »
Hey, just wait a minute ;)
Input FORCE and output FORCE?
You need to calculate the ENERGY in Joules. If the toolbox weights 50N and lifted 5cm each revolution, the energy applied to the box is 2.5Joule in average pr. revolution. Bearly noticable for a flywheel like that.
You see, then the flywheel starts to jump up and down as well, this movement will steal kinetic energy from the rotation. Because the inertia of the tool box will delay the jump so the weight on the wheel loose kinetic energy for each jump.


Vidar

When you use the word jump, you are talking about energy expended in one direction against gravity. But this device produces force in 2 directions OR each HALF cycle.

Force will accelerate a given quantity of mass to a certain speed within a given period of time when said mass has no other outside influence.

Force is therefore a measure of Energy that takes Joules into account.

If you lean on a tree to exert Force on it, you are expending energy, even though the tree isn't moving away from you. But you would accelerate it if you and the tree where in space.

Over each HALF cycle, after the initial buildup, the Force (energy) required to maintain the speed of the centrifugal mass throughout said half cycle is less than the output Force (Energy) in that direction of output amplitude.

In other words...
Example only not accurate figures:
-------------------
Mass (A) on the centrifuge receives 10 Nm^2 to keep it rotating at a certain rotational speed (regardless of losses) for each half cycle...
The output produces Force that averages 100 Nm^2 over this same time period.

1.) To what speed will  Mass (B), a copy of mass (A), accelerate from 0 mph if 10 Nm^2 is applied over the time that Mass (A) completes one half cycle?

2.) To what speed will  Mass (C), a copy of mass (A), accelerate from 0 mph if 100 Nm^2 is applied over the time that Mass (A) completes one half cycle?
----------------------

I hope you understand the implications.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 05:53:21 PM »
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Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 12:58:02 AM »
Faster acceleration of mass evidences Over Unity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjIIDquFCAU

Offline AlanA

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 02:52:18 PM »
@ MoRo

Thanks for the new video. But I don't know what you want to say with the simulation.

But one more question to the bike video "Easy over unity".
You made some calculations on paper in post #8. It would be a great breakthrough if you could do some measurements on the running model. It would convince every skeptics  ;)

AlanA

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 02:52:18 PM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 06:00:42 PM »
How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ERYReuQIrA

Don´t ask me how and what he is doing but the claims that are made are something like:

Two (electromagnet) generators who both drive a single iron construction with weights added will give 2800 rpm´s.

Then when a load is placed on the generated output... The rpms stay the same or briefly go higher.

Designer: Antonio Romero.

There is nothing in english about this btw.


Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 06:11:53 PM »
How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ERYReuQIrA

Don´t ask me how and what he is doing but the claims that are made are something like:

Two (electromagnet) generators who both drive a single iron construction with weights added will give 2800 rpm´s.

Then when a load is placed on the generated output... The rpms stay the same or briefly go higher.

Designer: Antonio Romero.

There is nothing in english about this btw.

Ok a little more info: (use Google translate)

TK Omega RF5000 Generator
http://www.technokontrol.com/en/current-projects/generator.php

TK AMGPP Orion Advanced Magnetic Generator Power Plant
http://www.technokontrol.com/en/products/orion.php

Another movie "proving" the principle: http://www.technokontrol.com/press-media/tk-rf5000-orion.html

Don´t ask me what they are doing.

The claim today is Technokontrol has built the principle into an aircraft which can fly without any fuel.
Delivered, tested and passed.

Who knows?

I´ll open a new thread because I am interested if someone knows them.

Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 06:59:16 PM »
Ok a little more info: (use Google translate)

TK Omega RF5000 Generator
http://www.technokontrol.com/en/current-projects/generator.php

TK AMGPP Orion Advanced Magnetic Generator Power Plant
http://www.technokontrol.com/en/products/orion.php

Another movie "proving" the principle: http://www.technokontrol.com/press-media/tk-rf5000-orion.html

Don´t ask me what they are doing.

The claim today is Technokontrol has built the principle into an aircraft which can fly without any fuel.
Delivered, tested and passed.

Who knows?

I´ll open a new thread because I am interested if someone knows them.

That looks like a simple flywheel, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

Offline MoRo

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Re: Centripetal Force Yealds Over Unity
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 08:17:26 PM »
@ MoRo

Thanks for the new video. But I don't know what you want to say with the simulation.

But one more question to the bike video "Easy over unity".
You made some calculations on paper in post #8. It would be a great breakthrough if you could do some measurements on the running model. It would convince every skeptics  ;)

AlanA
The bicycle setup wasn't anything for which I intended to take accurate measurements... It was just something thrown together for my observations of the principals involved. I do want to build a measured model based on my latest simulation as time will allow.  I will however leave the skeptics something to think about for right now though.

 Consider this:  Tidal forces are a real world expression of a great deal of energy. This release of energy is caused by none other than moon orbit. Yet,  zero thrust has been  required to maintain the moons orbit since it came into existence. Where then does the tidal energy come from? Is it Over Unity?

The fact is, the "LAW", or more precisely the "Equation"  for "Conservation of Energy", does not apply to the final result here, because this is a 2 stage system or equation.

Conservation of Energy applies only to isolated systems... (Put energy into an "isolated" flywheel and it will keep spinning throughout time.)

The moon is an isolated system... An isolated and imbalanced flywheel in relation to the earth, with no friction. So, it keeps orbiting without any more input... That's Stage One (a fitting Conservation of Energy equation).

Stage Two or the second equation is this: as the moon orbits energy is generated for tides and  heating of the earths interior. This energy is separate and is caused by the change in direction of centripetal forces as the moon orbits, not the speed of the moon's orbit. For If this process required any energy from the speed of orbit or first equation, what then do you think would happen?

 

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